[3.5] ToB for Non-Initiators

[Thurbane]

Hey all,

Is there any sort of guide for optimizing gaining maneuvers and stances through Martial Study, Martial Stance and magic items?

In the ToB handbooks I have read, they mainly focus on the initiator classes - maybe I'm juts not looking hard enough...

Cheers - T

[OldTrees1]

I don't think there is a guide, but there is not much information to deliver when you exclude dips and focus exclusively on the Crowns, Martial Study and Martial Stance.

For optimizing gaining a maneuver with Martial Study/Martial Stance:
1) Expend a number of feats equal to the number of prerequisites. You can get up to 3 prerequisites this way.
2) Wait until you have # HD >= 2 * Maneuver Level.

For optimizing gaining a maneuver with Crowns:
1)Buy a crown.

[Thurbane]

Mainly wondering about the "best" maneuvers and stances to pick up, and the best way to get higher level stances using the three feats, I suppose.

[OldTrees1]

Mainly wondering about the "best" maneuvers and stances to pick up, and the best way to get higher level stances using the three feats, I suppose.

Well the first is covered mostly by the dip guides. Since 1 level of an initiator class nets 6 maneuvers at most and Warblades get exactly 3.

The second:
Did you want a 1st level, 3rd level, or 5th level stance (since you need to dip into an initiator to get above 5th)?
A 1st/3rd/5th level stance is selected with your 3rd/12th/18th HD feat or a bonus feat at 2nd/10th/18th level. You will also need 0/1/2 prerequisite maneuvers from the same discipline.

Exceptions:
Blood in the Water, and Hunter's Sense have 1 prerequisite despite being 1st level.
Dance of the Spider, and Roots of the Mountain have no prerequisites despite being 3rd level.

[Thurbane]

Dance of the Spider, and Roots of the Mountain have no prerequisites despite being 3rd level.

That's exactly the kind of thing I was looking for, thanks.

[WhamBamSam]

That's exactly the kind of thing I was looking for, thanks.That, in a certain sense, makes them worse for non-initiators, as you always need at least one maneuver to take Martial Stance.

[ScrambledBrains]

I am, admittedly, not an expert on optimization by any means. That said, I do love my ToB, so let me see if I can cobble something together. :smallsmile:

First: Given the nature of Martial Study(that it can only be taken three times, and that your non-initiator levels count as half for ToB maneuvers, making you cap at fifth level Maneuevers.), what you'll probably most want to look at are low level maneuvers.

Second: Given that Martial Stance is unlimited in the number of times it can be taken, you'll probably want to find Disciplines that offer good stances at low levels, so that you can make use of whatever(up to) three schools you picked with your Martial Study feats.

That said, here's a Discipline by Discipline break down done as best as I can figure. Keep in mind that A: I'm bound to miss at least one gem or two and B: I'm mostly looking for things that are unique and useful as long as possible.

Desert Wind:
1st: Distracting Ember(Boost, gives you a free flanking partner, meaning it's good at all levels for certain builds that get huge sneak attack bonuses.)
2nd: Burning Brand(Boost, a bit of extra damage, but the real nice thing is it extends your reach with whatever weapon by five feet, which could prove handy.)

Devoted Spirit:
1st: Martial Spirit(Stance, free healing, minor as it may be(and in combat to boot) is still fairly nice at low levels, though this one falls off hard at later levels)
2nd: Foehammer(Strike, cuts through damage reduction, which never goes out of style. :smalltongue:)

Diamond Mind:
1st: Moment of Perfect Mind(Counter, instantly substitute a Concentration Check for a Will Save. Useful if said Save is low but Concentration is high.)
1st: Sapphire Nightmare Blade(Strike, makes opponent count as flat-footed if you hit what shouldn't be too hard a Concentration Check)
2nd: Action Before Thought(Counter, See MoPM, but for Reflex)
3rd: Mind Over Body(Counter, See MoPM, but for Fortitude)

Iron Heart:
1st: Steel Wind(Strike,Not exactly something super unique, but the ability to hit multiple opponents you're threatening is still something not to scoff at.)
2nd: Wall of Blades(Counter, Substitute an attack roll for your AC, useful if your AC is low(like an unarmored Barbarian. :smalltongue:))
3rd: Iron Heart Surge(No Type Listed, Appropriately house-ruled to function properly, this is still probably a good pick, as it prevents at least one crippling status ailment.)

Setting Sun:
1st: Step of the Wind(Stance, prevents difficult terrain from affecting your skill checks, speed or movement)
2nd: Baffling Defense(Counter, See Wall of Blades, but substituting a Sense Motive Check for your AC)

Shadow Hand:
1st: Child of Shadow(Stance, gives you concealment if you move at least 10 feet in a round. Useful for Scout-builds.)
2nd: Shadow Jaunt(No Type Listed, allows fifty foot teleport as Standard Action.)
2nd: Cloak of Deception(Boost, Greater Invisibility on command is ALWAYS useful.)
3rd: Assassin's Stance(Stance, gives 2d6 sneak attack damage which stacks with existing sneak attack damage)

Stone Dragon:
...Honestly, I found nothing here really useful, though I'd be happy to be shown to be wrong by a future poster. :smallsmile:

Tiger Claw:
1st: Hunter's Sense(Stance, gives Scent special ability(MM 314))
1st: Sudden Leap(Boost, Jump Check to move as a Swift Action.)
3rd: Leaping Dragon Stance(Stance, gives +10 bonus to jump checks and allows you to treat all jumps as running jumps. Good for boosting other maneuvers from same Discipline.)

White Raven:
2nd: Tactical Strike(Strike, helps your team move into better positions to either turn the battle's tide or GTFO. :smalltongue:)
3rd: White Raven Tactics(Boost, gives what amounts to an immediate extra turn to one of your teammates, which can always prove useful.)



And...that's all I found for the lower levels that really gives something unique and useful. A lot of the other stuff, AFAIK, is mostly just damage boosts and other minor bonuses. So...hope this helps, Thurbane. :smallsmile:

P.S. Yes, I do play way more Swordsages than Crusaders or Warblades, how did you know? :smalltongue:

[OldTrees1]

That, in a certain sense, makes them worse for non-initiators, as you always need at least one maneuver to take Martial Stance.

Yes but that maneuver is out of discipline if you so wish.I was wrong


Maneuvers I am fond of:
1st(no prereqs):
Crusader's Strike
Sudden Leap[has a prereq, wierd]
2nd(no prereqs):
Shadow Jaunt
Cloak of Deception
Mountain Hammer
3rd(1 prereq):
Revitalizing Strike
Iron Heart Surge
White Raven Tactics

Stances I am fond of:
1st:
Martial Spirit
Child of Shadow
Island of Blades
Hunter's Sense(1 prereq)
3rd(1 prereq):
Leaping Dragon Stance
Assassin's Stance
Dance of the Spider(no prereq)
Thicket of Blades(actually I find this a waste of time)
5th(2 prereqs):
none

Or Crusader 1(any time) /Swordsage 1(5th+) / Warblade 1(9th+) to get most of those.

[Thurbane]

2nd: Baffling Defense(Counter, See Wall of Blades, but substituting a Sense Motive Check for your AC)

That's an interesting one: Fighters in my games get 4 skill points/level from an expanded list, which includes Sense Motive.

I believe the Martial Study feat also adds a skill to your class lists?


Desert Wind = Tumble
Devoted Spirit = Intimidate
Diamond Mind = Concentration
Iron Heart = Balance
Setting Sun = Sense Motive
Shadow Hand = Hide
Stone Dragon = Balance
Tiger Claw = Jump
White Raven = Diplomacy

[ScrambledBrains]

I believe the Martial Study feat also adds a skill to your class lists?


Desert Wind = Tumble
Devoted Spirit = Intimidate
Diamond Mind = Concentration
Iron Heart = Balance
Setting Sun = Sense Motive
Shadow Hand = Hide
Stone Dragon = Balance
Tiger Claw = Jump
White Raven = Diplomacy



Correct. Those skills get added to your list if you didn't already possess them. :smallsmile:

[WhamBamSam]

Yes but that maneuver is out of discipline if you so wish.Except the benefit part of the feat says this.
When you gain this feat, you can select any stance from a discipline in which you already know at least one maneuver. You must meet the normal prerequisite of the stance. Your martial adept level for using this maneuver is equal to your levels in martial adept classes (if any) + 1/2 your levels in other classes.Emphasis mine.

In some ways, I find feat-based ToB optimization most interesting for monsters, most often things with lots of monster HD (and therefore high IL) on the DM's side of the screen, but also for things like intelligent pets (Arcane Hierophant, Exalted Companion, Beast Heart Adept, Psicrystals, etc). It's rare that a PC build won't be able to spare a class level to get their maneuvers. In most of these cases WRT is the alpha and the omega.

I sort of like Dancing Blade Form in some builds (even if it doesn't help with the stuff reach is usually most useful for), often ones that don't have levels to spare (either due to being gishy types that don't want to lose casting, or some other reason) but it's rare that I can spare the feats.

[mabriss lethe]

I've found that feat/ item based maneuvers are a really fun addition to a wilder-gish build. Wilders have a decent chassis to build from, a huge reserve of PP and very few things to do with it. Instant Clarity and Psychic Renewal can squeeze extra mileage from any maneuvers you have, since you don't have a normal recovery mechanic. (it will even let you get more out of Martial Scripts, as bad as they usually are.)

[Uncle Pine]

I like using 3.000 gp to grab Flame's Blessing and set myself on fire for free or Martial Spirit for infinite out of combat healing. Assassin's Stance is useful as well if you want Craven, but it has a prerequisite IIRC.

[Darrin]

Desert Wind:
1st: Distracting Ember(Boost, gives you a free flanking partner, meaning it's good at all levels for certain builds that get huge sneak attack bonuses.)
2nd: Burning Brand(Boost, a bit of extra damage, but the real nice thing is it extends your reach with whatever weapon by five feet, which could prove handy.)


I'm partial to the Burning/Searing/Inferno Blade boosts (but I'm a bit of a TWF junkie). I like how they scale with IL, so even the lowest level maneuver continues to be ueseful. Yeah, it's fire damage, but it's still bonus damage.

I also like Death Mark as a good way to take out clusters of mookage, but determining the center of the blast is a bit of a head-scratcher.



Diamond Mind:
2nd: Action Before Thought(Counter, See MoPM, but for Reflex)


2nd: Emerald Razor. As CR goes up, Touch AC goes *down*.



Iron Heart:
1st: Steel Wind(Strike,Not exactly something super unique, but the ability to hit multiple opponents you're threatening is still something not to scoff at.)


This is mini-pounce up to BAB +6, and even after you have multiple iterative attacks is still useful, because you can move + attack twice.

Also, Punishing Stance: Yeah, you think you'll switch stances later but... no, you won't.



Setting Sun:
1st: Step of the Wind(Stance, prevents difficult terrain from affecting your skill checks, speed or movement)


Sometimes I think Mighty Throw is a good one-feat substitute for Improved Trip. But this discipline is the one I tend to ignore the most.



Shadow Hand:
1st: Child of Shadow(Stance, gives you concealment if you move at least 10 feet in a round. Useful for Scout-builds.)


I still prefer Island of Blades. Much easier to get the other meatbags in the party to cooperate with you if you can get them a flanking bonus.



Stone Dragon:
...Honestly, I found nothing here really useful, though I'd be happy to be shown to be wrong by a future poster. :smallsmile:


1st: Charging Minotaur. A good "Let's Get This Party Started" maneuver for the first round. Adds a little damage to battlefield control, so you get a little of the best of both worlds. Can also come in handy later if an opponent is dumb enough to stand next to a cliff/pit.
2nd: Mountain Hammer. Swiss Army Chainsaw. SO USEFUL. Even better than Foehammer, as it also ignores hardness. Yes, you *can* dig your way through stone walls with your fist!
3rd: Crushing Weight of the Mountain. Good way to add constrict damage to a grapple build. Not the fault of the stance that grappling is so tough to do well.
4th: Bonesplitting Strike. 2 Con damage, *no save*. Yeah, break me off a piece of that!



Tiger Claw:
1st: Hunter's Sense(Stance, gives Scent special ability(MM 314))
1st: Sudden Leap(Boost, Jump Check to move as a Swift Action.)


Needs to start with Wolf Fang Strike or Claw at the Moon, the only two TC maneuvers with no prereqs. Always thought it was odd that you needed a TC maneuver before you could get one of the stances.



White Raven:
2nd: Tactical Strike(Strike, helps your team move into better positions to either turn the battle's tide or GTFO. :smalltongue:)
3rd: White Raven Tactics(Boost, gives what amounts to an immediate extra turn to one of your teammates, which can always prove useful.)


1st: Leading the Attack. Gives everybody in the party an untyped +4 bonus to attack the same target. Applies to your allies' ranged attacks, too.
3rd: Lion's Roar. So often overlooked because WRT is RIGHT THERE, but +5 untyped damage for the entire party? Yes have some!

[jiriku]

Insightful Strike (Diamond Mind 3) also has no prerequisites. I like this one because there are a lot of arcane and psionic characters with large Concentration check modifiers, but minimal melee damage options, or gish characters who spend a lot of time in melee and have great Concentration checks as well. Pick it up with heroics and you've got an ability that will do 20 or 30 damage once per encounter, for the low price of a single 2nd level spell. This maneuver combines well with spells and powers that add a status effect to your melee attacks or inflict a non-damaging spell effect with a touch (you can cast the touch spell, hold the charge, then execute the maneuver later and inflict both at once). Because you're not casting when you use it, it gives you an attack that's useful when you can't cast. Because the damage is independent of your weapon, it's also useful when you're disarmed or you're in one of those dreaded "you can't bring your weapons here" scenarios. Or when you want to kill a man with a teacup.

It's certainly not the most powerful option, but it's a useful option nonetheless.