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Ethdred
2007-04-25, 11:07 AM
I have a problem with an existing character - he started as a ranger in 2nd Edition, went through 3.0 and is now 3.5. In his original incarnation he was an ex-NPC that I took over, and fought with two axes. So when he finally came to 3.5 I took the TWF route, but I'd also picked up the Deepwood Sniper PrC along the route. He is now Ranger 6/Sniper 2 (don't worry if you don't know about the Sniper - not relevant) and for various reasons has become very concentrated on ranged combat, despite having 2 very groovy (indeed, legendary) axes to fight with. In fact, he doesn't even do TWF these days, prefering to use the battleaxe two handed for the STR bonus (and 'cos he doesn't have quick draw!). So I want to rebuild him (we have the technology!) but my DM made the following comment in our email exchange:

"There will be a cost to any such rebuild, so take that as a given. If
you were to take such a rebuild, I will almost certainly demand that
only 3.5 edition sources are used for the rebuild... so the Deepwood
Sniper levels would have to be replaced with something less obscenely
powerful (there is, AFAIK, no other way in the game to improve a
weapon's critical multiplier in 3.5e!) There is an alternative prestige
class you might be interested in, the Order of the Bow Initiate, but it
focusses on improved bow use at short range, not long range. Amazingly,
this seems to be the only 3.5e prestige class dedicated to bow
fighting... very strange!"

So my challenge to you all is - can you prove him wrong? Is there anything I can do to improve my effectiveness at long range combat (which is really my niche in the party) or otherwise become fab. I don't know the details of the Bow Initiate, but I might just go straight ranger for 8 levels. I don't have Precise Shot (though that could be remedied in the rebuild) so short range firing into melee isn't really what I want to do (at least until I get back the level I just lost for dying, and then I can get PS again!!)

Other tips for being a good ranger welcomed. The campaign world is less than standard, but I think the only relevant thing is that you can assume there is no market in magic items (in particular I can't get rid of the legendary axes for an equivalent GP in funky bows and arrows:smallfurious: ). The other PCs are Wizard/Alienist, Sorceror/Fighter/Gish PrC I've forgotten the name of (very melee focused), Fighter/Barbarian/Bear Warrior, Cleric, and Druid/Monk sort of thing. And we don't optimise. At all.

I have access to a number of books if needed, but feel free to range widely and quote sources - I feel the need to splurge on D&D books soon anyway.

JellyPooga
2007-04-25, 11:16 AM
Well, you might want to look into the Greatbow. That has an even longer range increment than the Longbow (and does d10 base damage). That's in Complete Warrior. Exotic Though.

Other things that might improve long range archery: Spot increases (Alertness?), Woodland Archer (Tactical feat in Races of the Wild - helps negate cover modifiers your foes might have [good for shooting through portcullis' too :smallwink: )....there's a couple of other feats in RotW that are good if you can fly, but from what you say, that's not going to be particularly common. You might want to look at some of the Spells in Complete Adventurer/RotW too, I'm fairly sure there's one that allows you to do precision damage (like that granted by Order of the Bow Initiate) at any range.

Were-Sandwich
2007-04-25, 11:19 AM
On OOTBI: ITS A TRAP (sorry, I don't have the kewl picture)

Seriously, it sucks.

Attilargh
2007-04-25, 11:27 AM
http://www.sixmonthsofsolitude.org/images/akbar1.jpg

PinkysBrain
2007-04-25, 11:27 AM
Scout/ranger is the flavor of the day ...

What books do you have?

Lord Iames Osari
2007-04-25, 11:36 AM
See if your DM will allow the Augment Critical (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31302) feat from the Homebrew forums if you want a bigger multiplier.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-04-25, 11:51 AM
Really, I don't see why you'd need a PrC...

You get the Ranged fighting tree. Pick up Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot early on (so you can fire into melee without hitting your buddies). When you meet prerequsites, grab Greater Manyshot. Grab a bow with +damage of whatever flavor you want. Stack multiples on even. Your point is to be chunking as many arrows as possible.

The nastiest thing to do in this case is to find a way to get extra damage on every shot. Sadly, there's not many options. Rogue is way too limited, you only get precision wihtin 30' (and you're sounding like you're wanting someone effective FAR outside that range), so does Scout and Ninja, and that's the most common form of damage multiplication around. Mighty Composite bow is going to be required, with maxed out Str bonus to equal your str bonus. Depending on your Str score, that's worth a couple or three points. There's a +2 equivelant enhancement called Concussive which grants a flat +5 damage on every hit (stacks with enhancement bonuses to damage), which might be worth it.

I think there was a feat which was the equivelant to Power Attack using a ranged weapon. If so, that would be a dramatic increase in damage output against lesser armored targets.

Meat Shield
2007-04-25, 11:57 AM
You can increase the weapon critical modifier in 3.5, but only once. Thus keen or Improved Critical will work, but not both at once.

As for options, see if you can adjust the Deepwood Sniper abilities to be something your DM can handle. If I remember right, the critical bonuses were the biggest thing that would not fly under 3.5. If you can live without them and reduce all of those to a single critical multiplier bonus, then he may be ok with it.

Later on, if you want to start abusing the 3.5 rules for fun and profit, get the Bloodstorm Blade PrC out of the Tome of Battle Book of Nine Swords. That will put your legendary axes to work for you, and really make the DM sorry he made you change.

Of course, I you are intent on staying with the bow, then Manyshot is what you want. Also, I find that 'trick' arrows can be very useful. I have not used them since second edition, but as you started this campaign there, you may know what I am talking about. I think it was in Oriental Adventures that the Leaf Cutter, Bulb, Grappling, and other arrow types were introduced. I'm sure they exist in 3rd edition, but I don't know what book.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-04-25, 11:59 AM
Meat Shield, he wants to increase the multiplier, not the range.

Were-Sandwich
2007-04-25, 12:08 PM
See if you can get your DM to allow 3rd party material. If so, then pick up Heroes of High Favour: Elves by Badaxe Games. Use Elven War Arrows. Win. They decrease the damage die by one, but double the crit range whilst keeping the multiplier the same, for a pittance extra.

Sahegian
2007-04-25, 12:16 PM
I think the highland stalker(might be the wrong name) PrC from races of stone is built around extremely long range bow use, although I think it has race requirements and don't recall it being particularly powerful. It has cool flavor elements, but I doubt it'll be as powerful as your current incarnation.

Steve_the_ERB
2007-04-25, 12:36 PM
I think the highland stalker(might be the wrong name) PrC from races of stone is built around extremely long range bow use, although I think it has race requirements and don't recall it being particularly powerful. It has cool flavor elements, but I doubt it'll be as powerful as your current incarnation.

I think you're thinking of cragtop archer, which is indeed in races of stone. There's a web preview on the wizards site I think.

Edit: Link to preview mentioned above, no race restrictions but feat requirement:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040815b&page=1

Talya
2007-04-25, 12:57 PM
3.0 prc's are still RAW for 3.5 unless specifically rewritten or commented on...

Jack Mann
2007-04-25, 01:05 PM
The feat isn't restricted to any particular race, so there's nothing to keep a non-goliath out of the class.

Runolfr
2007-04-25, 01:10 PM
I think the highland stalker(might be the wrong name) PrC from races of stone is built around extremely long range bow use, although I think it has race requirements and don't recall it being particularly powerful. It has cool flavor elements, but I doubt it'll be as powerful as your current incarnation.

Highland Stalker is in Complete Adventurer. You're probably thinking of something else.

Person_Man
2007-04-25, 01:12 PM
1) Order of the Bow Initiate is indeed a trap. It's main ability high damage shot is a standard action, which makes its overall damage much worse then a regular full attack, which makes the PrC useless.

2) The only good ranged shooting PrC I'm aware of is the Peerless Archer, from the Silver Marches book. It's a full BAB class that adds Sneak Attack, gives you magic arrows, and has other useful ranged special abilities. Unfortunately, it's 3.0. There's also the Dragon Stalker from the Draconomicon which is insanely deadly, but only against creatures with the dragon type.

3) If you're really interested in ranged attacks with Skills, a Human Wizard/PrC with Able Learner and blaster spells tends to be a lot more powerful. There's also a variety of powerful Cleric archer builds, or the Soulbow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2).

4) If you're really interested in being a Ranger, crunch be damned, but still want to have decent ranged attacks, I suggest being a strait Ranger with a decent animal companion and a copy of the Spell Compendium. There are some useful Ranger only spells in it that are on par with psionic powers or some ToB maneuvers.

5) I've known a lot of players who want to play a stalker/sniper/hit-man sort of build who can Hide, shoot a single arrow or bolt from a crossbow, and kill their prey. There just isn't any. And I'm glad. Because that type of combat tends to shut down action for other players who aren't interested in Hiding and making every combat encounter an ambush from 300 feet away. And even if the entire party wants to play ranged Assassins, it makes the encounters really repetitive after only a short while.

Talya
2007-04-25, 01:16 PM
Highland Stalker is in Complete Adventurer. You're probably thinking of something else.

He's getting them confused because Highland Stalker's example character/artwork is of a goliath female. (Awesome artwork, so I remember it.)

The one he's actually thinking of in Races of Stone is Cragtop Archer.

BardicDuelist
2007-04-25, 01:52 PM
Actually, taking levels of rogue would help off set the critical multiplier (more dice either way). The Order of the Bow IS halfway decent if you prefer "one shot one kill" type characters. While you can generally do more damage with a full attack and a flurry of arrows, a rogue OBI can do a considerable amount of damage from cover. The problem there is range. Also, if you can rebuild, check out the Ranged Pin feat in CW.

selfcritical
2007-04-25, 02:07 PM
Scout 3/ ranger 5, take swift hunter and the optional ranger feature from PHB II(Lose animal companion, gain all your attacks causing opponents to be flanked. Add rouge party member= profit)

Jack Mann
2007-04-25, 02:24 PM
Ah yes, the famous Rouge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10445) class.

Meat Shield
2007-04-25, 02:29 PM
Add rouge party member= profit)

Ah yes, the famous Rouge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10445) class.

Well if they were to use the Rouge class, there would be a profit involved. The good ones get paid quite well I hear....

Jewish_Joke
2007-04-25, 02:49 PM
I would go for the Peerless Archer Prc, as Person_Man stated earlier. It is 3.0, but as pg. 5 of Player's Guide to Faerun states:


While the version 3.5 revisions to the Dungeons and Dragons game include a number of relatively minor changer and updates to the game system, the majority of your existing 3rd Edition Forgotten Realms supplements and accessories are still perfectly usable in your game...
Silver Marches: Very little of this book is affected by the revisions to the core rulebooks or the material in Player's Guide to Faerun.

In other words, they just said that the Peerless Archer is an acceptable 3.5 prestige class, point this out to your DM. Unless he has a problem with "world specific" prestige classes, he should be okay with this one. And for argument purposes, it has pretty steep entry reqs, along with absolutely NO FR flavor (one reason why it has no place in the Silver Marches supplement).

Person_Man
2007-04-25, 03:07 PM
Rogue is actually a very bad idea for an archer:

1) A Rogue's mediocre BAB = fewer attacks and lower % chance of hitting. Expected damage is = average damage * % change of hitting * number of attacks. Raising your average damage by 1.75 points per level per arrow is nifty, but depending on other factors, in many cases you're actually lowering your overall expected damage because you're lowering you % chance of hitting and number of attacks.

2) Precision damage has a ton of limitations. You have to qualify. They have be susceptible (not undead, construct, plant, ooze, etc.).

3) You have to be within 30 feet, making you very vulnerable to their melee. If you're willing to fight within 30 feet but don't want to be right next to your enemy, use a reach weapon and/or Expansion/Enlarge Person and/or Inhuman Reach and/or Deformity tall and/or Polymorph/Wildshape. You'll have a much higher damage output using a melee attack, and you'll threaten everyone, and you'll be at the exact same range increment.

Darrin
2007-04-25, 03:19 PM
There is an alternative prestige
class you might be interested in, the Order of the Bow Initiate, but it
focusses on improved bow use at short range, not long range. Amazingly,
this seems to be the only 3.5e prestige class dedicated to bow
fighting... very strange!"


As others have pointed out, OotBI is a trap... and just a lousy PrC anyway. The other good PrCs are mostly 3.0, but there are a couple others. Arcane Archer (also a lousy PrC), Cragtop Archer (interesting... add Flying + Plunging Shot for 1d6+2 damage), and maybe Bloodstorm Blade (Throw Anything, and Returning as class abilities... *nice*).

Most ranged builds focus on Greater Manyshot (General feat in Expanded Psionic Handbook), so you can move+shoot multiple arrows with precision damage. This works somewhat well with Skirmish damage, but it's hard to get a lot of Skirmish dice (Scout 1 + Highland Stalker 2 gets you 2d6 Skirmish, and another two levels of either lets you get the Improved Skirmish feat for 4d6). Pick up Swift Hunter to let your Ranger levels count towards more skirmish.

Another interesting trick with skirmish damage... pick up some Crusader or Warblade levels, and get the Press the Advantage stance. This allows you to make two 5' steps in a round, so you could move 10' and then still full attack.

Something like:
1) Rgr 1. Feat: PB Shot, Track
2) Rgr 2. Feat: Rapid Shot
3) Rgr 3. Feat: Precise Shot, Endurance
4) Rgr 4. Animal Companion (Take a Hawk)
5) Rgr 5.
6) Rgr 6. Feat: Manyshot, Greater Manyshot
7) Scout 1. Skirmish 1d6
8) Scout 2.
9) Scout 3. Feat: Swift Hunter. Skirmish = 3d6/+2 AC
10) Highland Stalker 1.
11) Highland Stalker 2. Skirmish = 4d6/+2 AC
12) Scout 4. Feat: Improved Skirmish, and... Far Shot?
13) Warblade 1. (multiclass penalty)
14) Warblade 2. (multiclass penalty)
15) Warblade 3. Feat: Improved Critical
16) Warblade 4. Stance: Press the Advantage

For improving your critical damage... there is a weapon quality, Maiming, I think, that can increase your multiplier, but it's somewhat random, and I can't remember what book it's in. Given that you're kind of stuck with how wimpy arrow damage can be, your weapon abilities are going to be much more important than your feats/class abilities. Anything that does ability damage or other effects are going to make or break you. Wounding, Merciful, stunning, shaken, etc.

The Deadeye Shot from PHB II... doesn't do you much good unless you go the Sneak Attack route. See if your DM will let you use the original Dead Eye from Dragon Magazine #304 or the Dragon Compendium (DR#304 is probably 3.0, but the feat was updated for the Dragon Compendium, which should be fully 3.5). This lets you add your Dex bonus to ranged damage.

selfcritical
2007-04-25, 03:41 PM
The Deadeye Shot from PHB II... doesn't do you much good unless you go the Sneak Attack route. See if your DM will let you use the original Dead Eye from Dragon Magazine #304 or the Dragon Compendium (DR#304 is probably 3.0, but the feat was updated for the Dragon Compendium, which should be fully 3.5). This lets you add your Dex bonus to ranged damage.

I believe it counts as precision damage, however.

The_Jackal
2007-04-25, 04:16 PM
Why is nobody considering the lowly fighter? 4 levels in fighter will produce 3 nice combat feats including weapon specialization and if you're flinging LOTS of arrows, as many folks in this thread have already recommended, the extra 2 damage will help quite a bit, and it's NOT precision damage.

Indon
2007-04-25, 04:18 PM
3) You have to be within 30 feet, making you very vulnerable to their melee. If you're willing to fight within 30 feet but don't want to be right next to your enemy, use a reach weapon and/or Expansion/Enlarge Person and/or Inhuman Reach and/or Deformity tall and/or Polymorph/Wildshape. You'll have a much higher damage output using a melee attack, and you'll threaten everyone, and you'll be at the exact same range increment.

And for the reason above, avoid Manyshot; it has a 30 ft. max range which makes it really meh for someone who actually wants to _snipe_ things.

Annarrkkii
2007-04-25, 05:59 PM
The best way to model a sniper is with the Assassin class, especially with an ambush feat or two from Complete Scoundrel, but it has the 30 ft. limitation.

Might want to take a peek into the Heroes of Battle book. Coordinated Shot lets you ignore cover provided by allies, which saves some pesky relocating, and Plunging Shot lets you get +1d6 damage on targets below you, which is easy enough to manage. Ready Shot adds +3d6 damage to a shot made as a readied action, but doesn't contribute to a sniper quite so much.

Annarrkkii
2007-04-25, 09:01 PM
Eek. Sorry for the double-post. Spell Compendium has some great spells for this build, I've discovered, and the following is something I devised from them, close to what you want.


I present the best sniping build I could devise, in the form of The Yeomen of the Bowmen. Now, it is brought to you entirely by The Spell Compendium: A Ranger's Best Friend. Don't leave the woods without it.

THE YEOMEN OF THE BOWMEN
Finished Product: Human Ranger 6/Rogue 10/Cragtop Archer 4

1. Rgr 1 Point Blank Shot, EWP: Greatbow, Track, Favored Enemy
2. Rgr 2 Rapid Shot (Combat Style)
3. Rgr 2/Rog 1 Far Shot, Sneak Attack +1d6, Trapfinding
4. Rgr 2/Rog 2 Evasion
5. Rgr 2/Rog 3 Sneak Attack +2d6, trap sense +1
6. Rgr 3/Rog 3 Mountain Warrior, Endurance
7. Rgr 4/Rog 3 Animal Companion (hawk),
8. Rgr 4/Rog 3/Crag 1 Adept climber, farsight
9. Rgr 4/Rog 3/Crag 2 Plunging Shot, strike from above
10. Rgr 4/Rog 3/Crag 3 Arcing Shot
11. Rgr 4/Rog 3/Crag 4 Horizon Shot
12. Rgr 4/Rog 4/Crag 4 Uncanny dodge, Precise Shot
13. Rgr 4/Rog 5/Crag 4 Sneak Attack +3d6
14. Rgr 5/Rog 5/Crag 4 Favored Enemy
15. Rgr 5/Rog 6/Crag 4 Trap Sense +2, Sharp Shooting
16. Rgr 6/Rog 6/Crag 4 Manyshot (Combat Style)
17. Rgr 6/Rog 7/Crag 4 Woodland Stride
18. Rgr 6/Rog 8/Crag 4 Sneak Attack +4d6, Improved Rapid Shot
19. Rgr 6/Rog 9/Crag 4 Improved Uncanny dodge
20. Rgr 6/Rog 10/Crag 4 Sneak Attack +5d6, crippling strike

The premise behind this particular build is destructive ownage. He gets 2 1st-level spells per day, and that's all he needs. The key to his success can be found in the Spell Compendium. Specifically, Sniper's Shot. It removes the cap on distances for sneak attacking. Guided Shot is also useful, allowing him to ignore range penalties. But range penalties aren't generally a problem for him.

By 20th level, he should have something in the region of a +1 Flaming Burst Speed Greatbow of Distance, and have ready access to +3 arrows, perhaps better, by WBL or Greater Magic Weapon. We'll assume a modest +3 arrow for now. He started with 15 Dex, bumped it up 3 times, and 14 strength, bumped twice. By either a potion of bull's strength or a more permanent item, he should have 18 strength, which is what we'll assume, and gloves and tomes should ensure a Dex score of at least 28. His BAB +17/+12/+7/+2. His HD are 6d8 plus 10d6 plus 4d8.

Assuming the bow and arrows above, he should be attacking for +30/+25/+20/+15. This can be improved upon with a number of buffs from friendlies, but we'll assume this for now. Add in that he tends to fight from a height advantage and on mountains, and he's attacking for +33/+28/+23/+18. Each arrow defaults to 1d10+8+1d6 fire damage, +1d6 for having the higher ground from Plunging Shot. So 1d10+2d6+8, per arrow. He can cast only Sniper's Shot or Guided Shot every round, since each is a swift action. A wand of sniper's shot still uses a standard action to activate, but a ring of sniper's shot, a wondrous item that allows command-word activation of sniper's shot 5 times per day, should cost only 5,400 gp. Add in a ring with the same command word that activates guided shot for another 5,400 gp, or cast it yourself, and you should be all set to go.

He can now kill things from a very, very, VERY long way away. 130 ft. is the base increment for a Greatbow. The weapon is distance, and therefore starts with a range increment of 260 ft. Far Shot increases this to 390 ft. Arcing Shot then allows us to fire up to 15 range increments, or, frighteningly, 5850 ft. A mile. This sniper can, using his ring, launch a full attack, with Rapid Shot, at any target within a mile, and hit home with every attack for sneak attack damage. For extra joy, quaff a potion of enlarge person to increase your bow's damage to 2d6, and slap on a hawkeye spell, increasing your range increment to 520 ft, and your total distance to 7800 ft.

An enlarged archer of the above version will deal 9d6+8 and 2 STR damage, and he will be attacking at +33/+33/+28/+23/+18. If your DM doesn't approve of the dual rings, you can always just fall back on Horizon Shot. It allows only 1 attack per round, but should still be doing the full damage, since a little bit of cover, at that distance, means you won't be visible. Ideally, your foes will be plainly visible, but you should have a frightening Spot check, anyway. Something like a minimum of +25, but magic items and spells should easily get you up to +40. Farsight means you should be able to keep a bead on them, with the advantage higher ground gives to Spot checks.

More potent arrows and a more potent bow can make this build that much more effective. Psionics makes Psychic Warrior dipping a definite possibility, especially the delicious possibility of Greater Psionic Shot to launch your full-round arrows every other turn with the juicy addition of an extra +5d6 damage, bringing the shot up to 14d6, ignoring range penalties.

Snipery enough? Horizon Shot, especially, feels sniperish, since it's just launching one arrow at a time. There is probably a lot more cheese I could have tried to cram into this one, but the above is actually a totally valid character, with significant flavor, not too much powergaming, and a definitely cool theme.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-04-25, 09:18 PM
Eek. Sorry for the double-post. Spell Compendium has some great spells for this build, I've discovered, and the following is something I devised from them, close to what you want.


I present the best sniping build I could devise, in the form of The Yeomen of the Bowmen. Now, it is brought to you entirely by The Spell Compendium: A Ranger's Best Friend. Don't leave the woods without it.
[snipped stuff]

And yet it is completely ineffective after the first round, or against anything immune to sneak attacks, or anything that can beat your initiative, or anything that retains Dex bonus to AC while flat-footed...

And you can only pull off the ZOMG shot twice a day.

Better idea: straight Ranger. Get your Wizard buddy to spring for a Permenanced Enlarge Person for you if you want to be bigger. Have him Chain Reach GMW so the whole PARTY has +5 weapons. Grab stuff like Concussive which is +2 enhancement for +5 raw damage, rather than elemental flavors which are often negated by energy resistances of critters at higher levels. If you can afford to blow the feat, grab Improved Critical. If you can't spare the feat, get a Keen bow.

Annarrkkii
2007-04-25, 09:23 PM
...the fact that you are attacking from a mile away, with cover, on a mountainside, means your enemy can't actually see you, and the -20 to Hide required to snipe is absolute cake. So you can actually use the supershot every few rounds.

This is not a build that would be useful to a party. This is a build that demonstrates that sniping is marginally possible. And you can pull of the shot 6/day, if you use the ring, and use 1 slot to cast Hawkeye.

EDIT: In the interest of avoiding argument, however, I fully acknowledge your point. It is a fairly goofy build, with a narrow range of usefulness. Beyond the fact that it can continue to attack a foe over immense distances. It's certainly an awkward build. Greater Invisibility and the like would make you much more effective, and several other buffs a party could provide would, as well, but it's still possibly suboptimal.

I just wish you wouldn't be so snippy about it :p. I'm not trying to break records or show anyone up, just build a "sniper."

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-04-25, 11:02 PM
Ahh, I misunderstood your point. The OP was asking for good archer builds, not necessarily a mostly unplayable sniper build. Also, how can he get 6/day from Sniper's Eye when he can only cast it 2/day?

I'm trying to figure out a way to get a lot of consistant damage as a ranged combatant from a far distance without being mostly unplayable like that build.

Theodoxus
2007-04-26, 12:17 AM
blame the mechanics... archery is always suboptimal to melee. Without a power attack like feat to boost base damage, you're stuck doing 1d10 without a lot of additional help.

The advantage is your mobility. Hitting from over 40 ft away pretty much guarentees you won't be melee'd that round. You can more than likely maintain that distance while still making at least one attack a round. 1 attack vs an enemies 0 attack means you will eventually win - just might take a lot of arrows.

Multiple attacks in a round gets rediculous... the ablility to pull, nock, aim and fire an arrow in 6 seconds is impressive. The ability to do that more than twice, approaches the unbelievable. I'd rather do one hit, pretty much guarenteed to hit, that does a lot of damage than make 5 hits, 3 of which miss, and two do okish damage.

Ethdred
2007-04-26, 04:42 AM
Thanks for all this peeps - please keep it coming. A few comments:

Yes, RAW may say that 3.0 is still allowed, but my DM doesn't and DM>RAW - but thanks for trying :)

I'm not sure about taking Rogue as we currently don't have a trapfinding PC. So our DM (who is quite good about these things) has therefore minimised the traps. If I take Rogue this will unleash EvilDM, which we don't want to do!

Cragtop archer looks interesting for really long range - not sure how it would fit the rest of the party but I might give it a whirl.

Hint taken on the Bow Initiate - I shall avoid that!

Flying is a possibility but only occasionally - we'll see about that

I do have the ToB so I shall look into the hurling PrC - I love the ToB so would welcome the opportunity to play it, even if my DM wouldn't.

Spell Compendium could well be my next buy, as I like playing wizards as well.

On the suggestions for bow enhancements - all well taken, but due to having 2 legendary axes that I can't cash in, my WBL won't let me get a magic bow (yet). Like I said, we're not optimised! But I could well spring for a Greatbow - a bigger damage die could be crucial

Annarrkkii
2007-04-26, 05:44 AM
I outlined the method, by using two rings, one allowing guided shot 5/day, the other allowing sniper's shot 5/day. And then you can supply both spells once yourself. I suppose 5/day is a more likely outcome, actually. That's 5 ROUNDS of 5, mile-long sneak attacks, not five attacks, but it's still only a marginal build.

This guy would be an extremely irritating NPC to have roaming the hills, pestering you with arrows...

Indon
2007-04-26, 08:13 AM
You know, Spot has a distance penalty of -1 per 10 feet.

So if you're sniping and rehiding from 300 feet off, say, you'll actually get a net +10 bonus to hiding again; you're penalized by 20, but your target is penalized by 30.

Snipe more than 400 feet away and you've got it made, RAW. Of course, that's kind of absurd.

Leon
2007-04-26, 09:20 AM
5) I've known a lot of players who want to play a stalker/sniper/hit-man sort of build who can Hide, shoot a single arrow or bolt from a crossbow, and kill their prey. There just isn't any. And I'm glad. Because that type of combat tends to shut down action for other players who aren't interested in Hiding and making every combat encounter an ambush from 300 feet away. And even if the entire party wants to play ranged Assassins, it makes the encounters really repetitive after only a short while.

The Rifleman PrC (ends up with a x6 damage on the Snipe Shot) from Iron Kingdoms


blame the mechanics... archery is always suboptimal to melee. Without a power attack like feat to boost base damage, you're stuck doing 1d10 without a lot of additional help.

yeah its suboptimal to be doing 120 damage a round and not take any damage from the entire fight.....

Person_Man
2007-04-26, 10:07 AM
The best way to model a sniper is with the Assassin class, especially with an ambush feat or two from Complete Scoundrel, but it has the 30 ft. limitation.

The Assassin Death Attack requires a Sneak Attack with a melee weapon, and it has mediocre BAB. Thus, its a really bad idea for a ranged build.

Starbuck_II
2007-04-26, 10:14 AM
If your DM allows any splatbook: try Untapped Potential.

It has archery feats like Hawkeye (extends range of precision attacks by 20 feet I think and +2 spot, each time you take it).

An Archery Base Class called the Marksmen (also psionic).

I personally love it.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-04-26, 12:42 PM
Multiple attacks in a round gets rediculous... the ablility to pull, nock, aim and fire an arrow in 6 seconds is impressive. The ability to do that more than twice, approaches the unbelievable. I'd rather do one hit, pretty much guarenteed to hit, that does a lot of damage than make 5 hits, 3 of which miss, and two do okish damage.

Most SCA Archers who win tournaments can accurately hit targets at such speeds. Heck, we've clocked some guys at being able to launch arrows at nearly one arrow per second, with a grouping about the size of a fist. Even I can do better than empty a 10 arrow quiver if I'm speed-shooting (although with a reduction in accuracy) in under a minute, and I'm not even considered to be that good.

It is entirely believable that PC's, who are not stuck with Commoner or Expert levels, are able to perform such archery feats.

However, this brings up the Reality/Fantasy problem. You see... this is D&D. They don't obey the Laws of Physics. A man who is run through with a Demon's Claw lands in a bucket of water and HEALS instantaniously to be stable so he won't die without aid. Since when does 'what people can do in real life' apply to what Rangers can do?

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-26, 12:53 PM
Ranged fighting in D&D has a numerical edge in any instance where you have a sizeable force and are on open terrain. The meleer's will start dying one by one as they try to close the gap, and with proper feats every single archer in the group can target the same combatant adequately even when they engage in melee.

Ignoring magic, mixed tactics work quite well in D&D warfare.

JellyPooga
2007-04-26, 12:59 PM
Multiple attacks in a round gets rediculous... the ablility to pull, nock, aim and fire an arrow in 6 seconds is impressive.

It is? I can do that and I'm only a novice archer at best (using an English Longbow, not one of these fancy modern composite jobs with weights and sights and all sorts of gadgets on it). I know someone who can do the same in half that time and even he's not amazingly good.

Though there is one thing about archery in D&D I don't like...that's the lack of ambiguity. Melee combat represents all sots of jigging around, making swipes, missing some, hitting some and so on...thus HP makes sense - it's not literally the ability to be hit more, but rather the ability to survive longer in combat. However, the same is not true of Ranged combat. In this, you fire an arrow/bullet/bolt and either hit or miss. There's no give and take, there's no exhaustion factor, or whatever. Either you plugged your target or you didn't. If the system were consistant, when you shoot someone, the damage should be based on how many HD they have (i.e. a Longbow might have "1d8/enemy HD" as a damage rating)...That's what I think anyway...

Roderick_BR
2007-04-26, 01:34 PM
Once I did a build with Many Shot and Initiate. If your enemy's AC is too high, use the Initiate's bonus to damage. If the enemy's AC is low enough, go for the manyshot. If you want to risk it, at 2nd level the Initiate gains the ability to attack in mellee without provoking AoO.
In any case, when you get 29.000 po, get a casting glove and a rod of surestriking from DMG2. 3 times a day you can use true strike with your Manyshot. If you have the cash, spend another 4.000 for another rod, so you can replace the used one, and gain 3 more true strikes.
A greatbow will be useful if you get into epic level and get Wield Oversized Weapon, to use a large greatbow for 1d12 damage.

And don't forget: Get Precise shot, and convince the group's fighter to use a reach weapon with the feats Combat Reflex, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and maybe Hold the Line, and get your wizard to use some battle field control spells like grease, so they can delay charging oponnents while you take them out one by one. Powerful builds are more powerful when the group works together.

Kalirren
2007-04-26, 07:51 PM
Dude, if you were once a TWF'er with axes and are now being shafted into 3.5 Ranger, and your party doesn't optimize...

the -only- good solution is to go for throwing axes!

Use both Rapid Shot and TWF to get yourself more attacks, and pick up that feat that lets you get your Strength bonus to hit instead of your Dexterity bonus on thrown weapons. Get an item that gives Quick Draw for thrown weapons (there's bound to be one somewhere, I know I've seen it but can't pull the reference off the top of my head.)

Point Blank Shot and a barbarian level (so you can rage while you do all this stuff) will help offset the penalties if you're fighting really tough foes.

You should be set, since your party doesn't optimize.

adanedhel9
2007-04-26, 08:17 PM
Get an Ehlonna's Quiver which lets you draw your axes as a free actions.

Awuh? The quiver of ehlonna/efficient quiver lets you draw stored items


as if from a regular quiver or scabbard

Which, for things that aren't ammo (e.g. axes) is a move action.

Beleriphon
2007-04-27, 04:50 AM
You can increase the weapon critical modifier in 3.5, but only once. Thus keen or Improved Critical will work, but not both at once.


Thats the crit range, and it can be pretty wide, its just that improved crit and keen don't work at the same time.

The critical modifier is the N part of the following:

19-20/xN