Secret of Mana

[danzibr]

I've been playing games since about 1990. Played lots of games, mostly RPG's. The other day I was looking at top 10 lists for RPG's by system. I've played a strong majority of them, but somehow missed Secret of Mana.

So I started SoM for the first time a couple days ago. To be honest, I didn't like it much at first. 1 dude, combat was long and a little awkward. But now, a couple hours in (just got Undine's magic), I can say I'm really enjoying it. Not using any guides so I'm probably missing stuff, but that's fine. I really like the seamlessly switching between characters and weapons, even if the AI isn't great.

Maybe I should've done a LP with SS's. Might'be been funny for the pros to see.

[DigoDragon]

Secret of Mana is pretty buggy, but it really is fun if you got a friend or two and team up. Even alone, it's got nice elements to make it worthwhile playing through once.

[danzibr]

Holy smokes! You can 2-player it?

That seems like it might make the game a bit easy.

[huttj509]

Holy smokes! You can 2-player it?

That seems like it might make the game a bit easy.

You can 3-player it, if you have a SNES 4-score adapter.

One player controls each character.

[Brother Oni]

You can 3-player it, if you have a SNES 4-score adapter.

One player controls each character.

The player controlling the sprite can make it annoying since the game pauses every time he casts a spell.

[Gnoman]

Just make sure that you level every school of magic up as much as possible (simply spamming it will do) every time you get a new elemental or Mana Seed (the number of seeds you've sealed determines max spell level). The game becomes nearly impossible to beat at the end if you don't have a certain spell at high (or max) level.

[Maelfyn]

Secret of Mana was amazing. It had excellent music. Plus you have to remember that a multiplayer RPG was practically unheard of in the 16-bit era.

[Starwulf]

As a little hint(I have no idea how well known it is nowadays, back when I played it there weren't big sites like gamefaqs and stuff), in the final dungeon you can farm the enemies in there and get them to drop weapon orbs which allows you to take your weapons to their final transformation, the 9th stage(normally you can only get 8th level weapons, but I played this game so much that one time I was going through the final dungeon and a random mob dropped me a whip orb. I then set out to see if they would drop the others, and lo and behold, over the course of nearly 100 hours, I got all weapons to 9th level).

[danzibr]

Just make sure that you level every school of magic up as much as possible (simply spamming it will do) every time you get a new elemental or Mana Seed (the number of seeds you've sealed determines max spell level). The game becomes nearly impossible to beat at the end if you don't have a certain spell at high (or max) level.
Ahh shucks. Thanks for the hint. Does weapon level function the same way? I've been enjoying using multiple weapons. The guy is my melee character, sprite thing my medium range, chick my long range.

As a little hint(I have no idea how well known it is nowadays, back when I played it there weren't big sites like gamefaqs and stuff), in the final dungeon you can farm the enemies in there and get them to drop weapon orbs which allows you to take your weapons to their final transformation, the 9th stage(normally you can only get 8th level weapons, but I played this game so much that one time I was going through the final dungeon and a random mob dropped me a whip orb. I then set out to see if they would drop the others, and lo and behold, over the course of nearly 100 hours, I got all weapons to 9th level).
Good to know! Also gives me a very vague hint of how long the game is.

But damn, 100 hours? I don't think I'll commit to that...

[Eldariel]

After you're done with that, I greatly recommend "Seiken Densetsu 3" (the Japanese "sequel" of the same series); it's an unsung jewel of the SNES era that never got a western release.

I'd say SD3 takes everything good about Secret of Mana and makes it better: interesting gameplay, superb characterization, engaging storylines and even multiplayer. It even contains three essentially different stories depending on your choice of protagonist.

[DigoDragon]

That seems like it might make the game a bit easy.

Yes and no. One problem with having friends along is that sometimes you disagree where to go, or in a fight everyone runs in different directions, so ultimately someone might get stuck on an enemy and take a bunch of hits at once. :smallredface:


But damn, 100 hours? I don't think I'll commit to that...

Yeah, it can take a loooong time. I only ever got the Spear, Whip, and Boomerang up to level 9.

[danzibr]

After you're done with that, I greatly recommend "Seiken Densetsu 3" (the Japanese "sequel" of the same series); it's an unsung jewel of the SNES era that never got a western release.

I'd say SD3 takes everything good about Secret of Mana and makes it better: interesting gameplay, superb characterization, engaging storylines and even multiplayer. It even contains three essentially different stories depending on your choice of protagonist.
Maybe I'll do a blind lp of the ss variety when I finish this. Gauge interest first.

[Reinboom]

After you're done with that, I greatly recommend "Seiken Densetsu 3" (the Japanese "sequel" of the same series); it's an unsung jewel of the SNES era that never got a western release.

I'd say SD3 takes everything good about Secret of Mana and makes it better: interesting gameplay, superb characterization, engaging storylines and even multiplayer. It even contains three essentially different stories depending on your choice of protagonist.

Except SD3 doesn't support three player normally. :/

[Starwulf]

Ahh shucks. Thanks for the hint. Does weapon level function the same way? I've been enjoying using multiple weapons. The guy is my melee character, sprite thing my medium range, chick my long range.

Good to know! Also gives me a very vague hint of how long the game is.

But damn, 100 hours? I don't think I'll commit to that...

Thankfully the 9th level weapons are in no way necessary, it was just totally for fun, Secret of Mana is my all-time favorite game so when I discovered the mobs in the final fortress dropped weapon orbs I was ecstatic that I could see the 9th level of weapons.

[danzibr]

Just got Gnome. Man, that fire dude was tough. First time he kept handing my butt to me. I walked in not at full MP with the sprite dude (?), and his magic was level 0. Went back, got his magic up and came back with full MP, then the boss went from being mega tough to a push over. Ahh, what a good strategy can do.

[Gnoman]

Ahh shucks. Thanks for the hint. Does weapon level function the same way? I've been enjoying using multiple weapons. The guy is my melee character, sprite thing my medium range, chick my long range.

Weapon level is much less important - AFAIK the main thing it determines is how powerful a charge attack can be. However, levelling up your weapons encourages swapping - your weapon level is determined by how many times you've upgraded it, so weapons stop improving after a bit, allowing you to simply swap every time you level up.

I find it useful to use either the girl or the sprite as the directly controlled character, because it puts exactly one magic menu on each of the two buttons (IIRC, X brings up the controlled character's menu, and Y brings up the ally's, could have those backwards), allowing less backtracking when casting spells.

[danzibr]

Weapon level is much less important - AFAIK the main thing it determines is how powerful a charge attack can be. However, levelling up your weapons encourages swapping - your weapon level is determined by how many times you've upgraded it, so weapons stop improving after a bit, allowing you to simply swap every time you level up.

I find it useful to use either the girl or the sprite as the directly controlled character, because it puts exactly one magic menu on each of the two buttons (IIRC, X brings up the controlled character's menu, and Y brings up the ally's, could have those backwards), allowing less backtracking when casting spells.
I'm not sure what you mean by the first paragraph. You upgrade them with orbs, but your skill also increases. So you're saying... your skill cap is determined by how many times you upgrade them?

Strangely, I've never pressed the X button while having an ally that could use magic.

EDIT: Ahh I see. The higher your skill level the longer you can charge. I didn't even realize you could charge attacks :/

Also, same thing happened with a boss. Got my butt whipped, trained magic, came back and dominated. Man magic is strong in this game.

[Gnoman]

I'm not sure what you mean by the first paragraph. You upgrade them with orbs, but your skill also increases. So you're saying... your skill cap is determined by how many times you upgrade them?

Yes, that's what I mean. You can train your weapon skill up to level 1 when you first get it, and an additional skill level unlocks with each upgrade.

[Eldariel]

Except SD3 doesn't support three player normally. :/

Oh? That's a pity, I always thought it was but only ever played with two...

[Pendulous]

Yes and no. One problem with having friends along is that sometimes you disagree where to go, or in a fight everyone runs in different directions, so ultimately someone might get stuck on an enemy and take a bunch of hits at once. :smallredface:



Also, doesn't the game only register one attack at once, if two characters hit the same target simultaneously?

[danzibr]

Also, doesn't the game only register one attack at once, if two characters hit the same target simultaneously?
Ya know, I've been wondering about this. At times it seems the attack connects and there's merely a delay, at times it seems the second attack is a total whiff.

Also, I'm well into the desert now.

[DigoDragon]

Also, doesn't the game only register one attack at once, if two characters hit the same target simultaneously?

Usually, because when you hit someone, they have a moment of invincibility when they're knocked back. Plus you have to wait a couple seconds for your character to "ready" themselves to strike at full power again. However, there's a trick that if you alternate attacks between two players on a stunned enemy, you can essentially stun-lock them until they die.

[danzibr]

Update!

I haven't been able to play as much. To be perfectly honest, at the beginning I didn't like it very much. Intro was weak. All the back and forth was very dull. Story wasn't great.

Then it got much better! In particular, I just got Flammie. That didn't make the plot much better, but the back and forth is way faster. Considering it's rated as one of the top RPG's ever, I assume it's going to get better. I mean, it's alright, just not fantastic (yet) imo.

[Psyren]

To be perfectly honest (and I say this as a massive Seiken Densetsu fan), whenever you see a list that says "best RPGs of all time" you should be taking that with a grain of salt. Usually it means something like "given the technical limitations of the time period it was released in" or "of my childhood when everything was awesome." (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2015/06/22/you-had-to-be-there) But the simple fact is that game design (and narrative design) has come a long way since those days, so you're going to run into a lot of irritants playing an older RPG today and wondering what all the hype is about.

If you can set that aside and try to view the experience through the lens to the past - being amazed at once-groundbreaking things we take for granted now like real-time combat, AI-controlled party members, weapon behaviors and even multiplayer, and being able to forgive a threadbare setting and plot as a result, like we did - you might be able to understand what made SM and SD3 the nostalgic powerhouses they are today. If however you approach these conventions as though they come standard, you'll likely walk away disappointed.

[danzibr]

Those are great points. However... when I think of other SNES games, like Chrono Trigger and FFVI, they're just so much more fun despite being the same generation.

Might be the nostalgia lenses messing with me (though I didn't play either of the aforementioned games until I was a bit older), but even then playing NES games for the first time have provided more fun.

Long story short, I can see how it's exemplary from a mechanical PoV, but so far I haven't had that much fun with it. Decent bit of fun mind you, but not as much as with others. I'm not one to give up on a game though.

[Psyren]

Those are great points. However... when I think of other SNES games, like Chrono Trigger and FFVI, they're just so much more fun despite being the same generation.

Of course they are - those games had actual plots, interesting settings and deep characters. SM... doesn't. See what I mean? :smalltongue:

"Blargh, generic evil empire want magic tree. You, destined hero, go get sword and make with the stabby."

The most interesting characters in the SM games are the mana spirits, and they barely get any screentime.

[Pendulous]

To be perfectly honest (and I say this as a massive Seiken Densetsu fan), whenever you see a list that says "best RPGs of all time" you should be taking that with a grain of salt. Usually it means something like "given the technical limitations of the time period it was released in" or "of my childhood when everything was awesome." (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2015/06/22/you-had-to-be-there) But the simple fact is that game design (and narrative design) has come a long way since those days, so you're going to run into a lot of irritants playing an older RPG today and wondering what all the hype is about.

If you can set that aside and try to view the experience through the lens to the past - being amazed at once-groundbreaking things we take for granted now like real-time combat, AI-controlled party members, weapon behaviors and even multiplayer, and being able to forgive a threadbare setting and plot as a result, like we did - you might be able to understand what made SM and SD3 the nostalgic powerhouses they are today. If however you approach these conventions as though they come standard, you'll likely walk away disappointed.

I actually did a review of Breath of Fire somewhat recently, a game that I loved. When I broke it down, I found it to be a rather bad game. That's also what happened to the Game Grumps. Jon raved about Conker, so they recorded a few episodes, and it was so depressing him finding out he DIDN'T like it, they never aired them.

[danzibr]

I actually did a review of Breath of Fire somewhat recently, a game that I loved. When I broke it down, I found it to be a rather bad game. That's also what happened to the Game Grumps. Jon raved about Conker, so they recorded a few episodes, and it was so depressing him finding out he DIDN'T like it, they never aired them.
Out of curiosity, which BoF?

I adored 3, then went back and tried to play 2 but didn't get into it.

[RoyVG]

Secret of Mana, while also a great game in its own right, really has a flawed combat system, mostly because of the waiting time between attacks and the ability to stunlock in multiplayer. This is likely caused by system limitations but then again, Seiken Densetsu 3 could do it so much better. The story also doesn't really feel interesting enough to continue playing, having quit the game multiple times before even getting the second Mana spirit. Still it's a fairly good game

Speaking about nostalgia one of my favorite games of the SNES is Lufia 2, but when not looking through childhood nostalgia glasses, I can see it follows the all the standard tropes almost like its trying to be the definition of these tropes. It has its moments and mechanics like the Capsule Monsters and story elements like two of the main character get married and even have a kid after a 1 year time skip or the part after the final boss is defeated. It even has a Rogue-like random-dungeon-generator before it hit mainstream popularity which was genuinely difficult to complete. Still the game was so generic that it fell under the radar to games that pushed the system like Final Fantasy III and Chrono Trigger. I only knew about the game because I knew it was the one of the first Nintendo games to be translated to Dutch, allowing me to understand the story at the time, and most of Squaresofts games never released many of their games in Europe, with Secret of Mana and Mystic Quest (Literally the first 'Final Fantasy' to come to Europe, nice first impression) being among the few exceptions.

[Psyren]

I actually did a review of Breath of Fire somewhat recently, a game that I loved. When I broke it down, I found it to be a rather bad game. That's also what happened to the Game Grumps. Jon raved about Conker, so they recorded a few episodes, and it was so depressing him finding out he DIDN'T like it, they never aired them.

Now this I find weird. Conker (the N64 version anyway) holds up extremely well if you like 3D platformers at all, and the 4th-wall-breaking toilet humor (literally in some levels) is just as funny today as it was on release.

The only real downer is the ending, but it sounds like he didn't even make it that far.


Secret of Mana, while also a great game in its own right, really has a flawed combat system, mostly because of the waiting time between attacks and the ability to stunlock in multiplayer. This is likely caused by system limitations but then again, Seiken Densetsu 3 could do it so much better. The story also doesn't really feel interesting enough to continue playing, having quit the game multiple times before even getting the second Mana spirit. Still it's a fairly good game

SD3 combat is indeed better, but it's terribly flawed too. Spellcasting follows a queue system, and the monsters are on the same queue, so if you aren't very proactive about healing (i.e. queueing up heals before you think you'll need them) then the mid-to-late-game monsters can get off several hard-hitting AoE attacks in quick succession and utterly wreck your team before you get a chance to do anything. The game also punishes you for using spells and high-level techs (which work like magic, i.e. pausing the action) by having many monsters and almost all the bosses counter-attack painfully whenever you use them. This plus the way sabre magic works (i.e. buffing normal hits and level 1 techs, but not level 2 and 3 techs) counterintuitively makes your level 1 techs the fastest and most damaging attacks in the game. and also the safest ones to use because they don't provoke counters. This is exacerbated by the game's damage cap - the most damage any attack can do is 999 (which is also the most HP you can have) and so once you're high enough you can paradoxically just forget about your most powerful attacks in favor of the more cost-and time-efficient lower-level ones. This is particularly true for the highest-level magic, which looks cool, but can take a very long time to go off, while the lower-level spells deal comparable damage and are over and done with quickly. (For example, Ancient takes forever to cast and costs of your 99 MP maximum - even if it does 999 to everything on the screen, in a boss fight you could just cast Holy Ball for example for 2 MP and 500+ damage, it casts almost instantly and the animation is much shorter, allowing you to get three of them off by the time you can cast a single Ancient for half the MP and much more damage.

In addition, nearly all the status spells are useless, as is the case in far too many JRPGs of that era (e.g. if an enemy is weak enough to be affected you can just kill them normally anyway, and if they're strong enough they are immune to many.). Multiple spells are bugged and don't work at all, e.g. Speed Up or Energy Ball. Some debuffs actively hurt you to use, like mini and Freya, which make enemies harmless but cause them to give 0 XP.

The damage cap and the spell-like nature of the high-level techs means that having a single-target tech is strictly inferior to a multitarget one. A ST tech will never do more than 999 to one enemy, while a MT tech can potentially do 999 to everything on the screen.

[Eldariel]

The status is the only thing I disagree with: Many of the endgame mundane enemies are actually quite tough and particularly against the casters, status effects are a really convenient way of disposing of them quickly. I found myself using Marduk's silence, for instance, a fair bit. The same enemies are quite a bit easier if you use e.g. Petrify or Snowman (the level 3 elementals). Though granted, if you spend time grinding levels you'll probably get strong enough to nuke them but at least on my straight playthroughs I found myself utilizing status effects a fair bit towards the end.

[Psyren]

You're right about silence, that is useful. But I think only two spells in the whole game inflict it (Marduk and the Wanderer's Silence move.)
Snowman IIRC keeps you from damaging the enemy, hurting its usefulness, but Petrify does not, so it is definitely handy.
Power Down, Magic Down and Defense Down are useful too.

I guess there are some good debuffs out there on reflection, but still, some are definitely useless.

[Eldariel]

You're right about silence, that is useful. But I think only two spells in the whole game inflict it (Marduk and the Wanderer's Silence move.)
Snowman IIRC keeps you from damaging the enemy, hurting its usefulness, but Petrify does not, so it is definitely handy.
Power Down, Magic Down and Defense Down are useful too.

I guess there are some good debuffs out there on reflection, but still, some are definitely useless.

Oh, some are certainly weak, but it just struck out to me as SD3 is one game where I actually remember using status effects a lot. I recall nothing is immune to stat reductions making them absolutely amazing as well. That was actually one of the things I've always appreciated about the combat system in SD3, keeping the debuffing abilities and status abilities comparatively useful, at least far as JRPGs are concerned (hell, even many western RPGs like to throw around immunities willy-nilly, though some can be subverted of course such as in the AD&D-based games thanks to Lower Resistance/Malison).

Overall, I really appreciate all the nuances in the game's combat from night/day cycles and the associated enemy/power variance, and daily magic power variance to all the class variations, party variations and such available. Far as characters specifically go, I find the amount of customization in the game is just about right: all the characters have their identities of course, but you can definitely push them in a couple of different directions. Of course, you do have to read up on the different options beforehand since the game does a terrible job of communicating what the class changes do in practice, but aside from the documentation issues (which might just be because I've never seen a game manual of SD3; that was back when such stuff was usually explained there, and way before I had any kind of proficiency in Japanese), I find the system quite elegant. It does have its issues, most of which you underlined, but overall I find it quite successful in spite of those.

[Starwulf]

I must be one of those oddballs that can enjoy all these older games and not think any less of them compared to today's games. I recently played through BoF2 and Earthbound and still loved them just as much as I did when I first played them. Played through the original Final Fantasy and Dragon Warrior IV last year and was just as enraptured with them as I was when I was a kid.

[Psyren]

Oh I can definitely enjoy them, but I can also be very grateful for the design improvements we've made over the years too.

I even recognize that there are areas of design where the older games still hold the edge even today. Take Earthbound - one of the really cool design choices they made in that game's combat was to make health count down over time after you got damaged. Thus, even though it was a turn-based game, you had a fighting chance against hard-hitting foes or bad-luck crits - you would have time to eat a curative item or get a heal off before you died if you got hit by a fatal blow. Another area of Earthbound's design that excelled was having you automatically win random encounters when you started to overlevel an area, as well as have weaker enemies run from you.

[danzibr]

I must be one of those oddballs that can enjoy all these older games and not think any less of them compared to today's games. I recently played through BoF2 and Earthbound and still loved them just as much as I did when I first played them. Played through the original Final Fantasy and Dragon Warrior IV last year and was just as enraptured with them as I was when I was a kid.
I'm the same way. Depends very much on the game though.

Oh I can definitely enjoy them, but I can also be very grateful for the design improvements we've made over the years too.

I even recognize that there are areas of design where the older games still hold the edge even today. Take Earthbound - one of the really cool design choices they made in that game's combat was to make health count down over time after you got damaged. Thus, even though it was a turn-based game, you had a fighting chance against hard-hitting foes or bad-luck crits - you would have time to eat a curative item or get a heal off before you died if you got hit by a fatal blow. Another area of Earthbound's design that excelled was having you automatically win random encounters when you started to overlevel an area, as well as have weaker enemies run from you.
Love me some Earthbound. Whenever I see people on bikes that music plays in my head. You know the music.

[Pendulous]

Out of curiosity, which BoF?

I adored 3, then went back and tried to play 2 but didn't get into it.

The original.

[Wookieetank]

Love me some Earthbound. Whenever I see people on bikes that music plays in my head. You know the music.

Oh yes. Used to play through this game once a year till I found out one of my friends had never played it and gifted it on to them. Only ever managed to get the Sword of Kings once though.

[danzibr]

Oh yes. Used to play through this game once a year till I found out one of my friends had never played it and gifted it on to them. Only ever managed to get the Sword of Kings once though.
I've never gotten it! I was going to comment earlier...

you automatically win random encounters when you started to overlevel an area, as well as have weaker enemies run from you.
I got to the point where I killed the gold starmen automatically. Did it over and over, never got a Sword of Kings :(

I'll add that to my bucket list.

[Psyren]

The one thing I absolutely loathed about Earthbound though was the inventory system. Come on HAL, we figured out how to make items stack with each other back in FF1!

[DigoDragon]

Speaking about nostalgia one of my favorite games of the SNES is Lufia 2, but when not looking through childhood nostalgia glasses, I can see it follows the all the standard tropes almost like its trying to be the definition of these tropes.

I remember playing that one years ago and had some fun with it. It didn't have any replay value for me however because it did feel pretty generic (including the token one character who has no magic but is all strength, and your generic elf character who shows up late in the game). Still, it wasn't a bad game.

The secret ultimate weapon in Lufia 2 was annoying to collect, but I think that's standard in most RPGs.


SD3 combat is indeed better, but it's terribly flawed too.

I played SD3 once and gave up fairly early on due to the combat being wonky like that. I was also at a point where I didn't know how to advance the story so that didn't help matters. The concept was good though, picking your heroes and the story is based on the combination you select.

[Wookieetank]

I've never gotten it! I was going to comment earlier...

I got to the point where I killed the gold starmen automatically. Did it over and over, never got a Sword of Kings :(

I'll add that to my bucket list.

Its not really worth it other than for bragging rights. With Poo his PK attacks far outshine his physical attacks (especially with all the grinding involved in getting the sword).

Back on topic, played SoM oodles as a kid but never beat it, couldn't quite figure out the progression, so I just had fun wandering around and beating the stuffing out of everything. Finally got around to playing all the way through it start to finish sometime in college and quite enjoyed it. It made for a surprisingly bittersweet story, particularly when compared to Secret of Evermore (which I had played through multiple times by the point I finished SoM).

[KillianHawkeye]

The high points of Secret of Mana were its semi-revolutionary three-player capacity, fairly epic storyline (once you got past the early parts and got into the meat of it), and using the SNES hardware to its fullest in the same way as other contemporary titles like Final Fantasy 6 and, to a lesser extent, Chrono Trigger.

Despite those strengths and the fact that the game is full of nostalgia for a lot of us folks, the game still suffers from the 90's-era jRPG necessity of grinding, not for levels, but for magic and weapon skills. I mean, really, don't go to fight the Fire Gigas in the Earth Temple without leveling up your Undine magic, seriously. And save up for a Fairy Walnut, just in case. The way the magic system works in this game, you basically want to put everything on pause to level up every time you gain a new element, because that unlocks the next level of ALL of your spells; and maybe you don't need to keep all your weapons at max level for all your characters, but at least have one or two that you like for each person and have those maxxed out. Also, the delay between making basic, non-charged attacks is sorta ridiculous.

This game is great, but it's FAR from perfect by any means. Still, it's a classic, and epic, and pretty funny at times while being sad and serious at other times, which is more than can be said for a lot of games these days. It's definitely worth playing through at least once, preferably with one or two of your bestest friends. :smallamused:

[Psyren]

Back on topic, played SoM oodles as a kid but never beat it, couldn't quite figure out the progression, so I just had fun wandering around and beating the stuffing out of everything.


I was also at a point where I didn't know how to advance the story so that didn't help matters.

One word: Gamefaqs, I don't think I'd have cleared a single damn RPG without that site back in the day. Some of the design was so freaking unintuitive. For example, there's one part in SD3 where you have to wait until nightfall for some guards to leave their posts, but if nightfall comes on its own they don't move - you're supposed to instead go to the Inn and choose the "rest until nightfall" option. And once you get the turtle it's crazy easy to miss the next town you're supposed to swim to.


The concept was good though, picking your heroes and the story is based on the combination you select.

Oh man I loved that. And I especially loved the parts of the game that would react to who was in your party, especially if you had two party members with the same final boss progression. (i.e. both Hawk and Lise's final enemy was the Archdemon, who possessed the latter's brother, and whose minions framed the former for the king's murder.)

[DigoDragon]

One word: Gamefaqs

I'm trying to remember if Gamefaqs had a SD3 entry back then (this was around 1997-98).


I second the problem in Secret of Mana that you really needed to grind those magics to survive later stages. Weapons not so much, but yeah that magic... Though there was this interesting bit that after you get your magic up to the highest level (8th I think?) you could still grind it a little further to something like 8:99 where there was a chance the spell would do some kind of supercharge version of itself.

[Cristo Meyers]

Its not really worth it other than for bragging rights. With Poo his PK attacks far outshine his physical attacks (especially with all the grinding involved in getting the sword).

Yeah, it really didn't actually do much aside from that fuzzy feeling for completing the set. I got it every time I played through the game but honestly it never really changed much in terms of how I used the Prince.


Back on topic, played SoM oodles as a kid but never beat it, couldn't quite figure out the progression, so I just had fun wandering around and beating the stuffing out of everything. Finally got around to playing all the way through it start to finish sometime in college and quite enjoyed it. It made for a surprisingly bittersweet story, particularly when compared to Secret of Evermore (which I had played through multiple times by the point I finished SoM).

I still, to this day, have not beaten Secret of Mana. I was in love with that game when I was a kid, bought it when I still had a Wii, but never did get around to finishing it. I know how it ends, obviously, but there's just something missing from 31-year-old me that 13-year-old me had that let me get through it.

[Wookieetank]

... something missing from 31-year-old me that 13-year-old me had ...

I'm going to go out on a limb and say copious amounts of free time and a lack of adult responsibilities. :smallwink:

[Cristo Meyers]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say copious amounts of free time and a lack of adult responsibilities. :smallwink:

Nah, I can still find the time to put 4+ hours down a day if I feel like it. It's just much more rare that a game makes me want to do that. With Mana I hit a spot where I was going to have to grind up yet another magic group and just couldn't bother despite being right near the end.

That whole 'where does the time go' thing is starting to finally sneak up on me, though. I think I need to find a bigger stick to threaten it with...

[DigoDragon]

Nah, I can still find the time to put 4+ hours down a day if I feel like it.

I am soooo jealous. :smalltongue:

My daughter has that free time, but video games have changed a lot these days. She's into those MMOs and Rockband kind of games.

[Cristo Meyers]

I am soooo jealous. :smalltongue:

My daughter has that free time, but video games have changed a lot these days. She's into those MMOs and Rockband kind of games.

Grass, greener, and all that.

Speaking of games changing though, I'm kinda surprised Square never got around to doing a remastered/remade/rereleased/re-jury-rigged Secret of Mana. I mean think about it: they never did finish it because Nintendo forced a bunch of cuts, it's live action which is in vogue right now, and there's built-in multiplayer. If it had come out today it'd almost fit right in.

[Psyren]

Well, given the lukewarm reception to Dawn of Mana (and whatever the hell they were trying to do with Heroes of Mana) we may be out of luck there. They'll look at that and think "nobody wants Mana games anymore" - which is crap, but hey.

But Square is sitting on far more lucrative properties that they're doing nothing with. Chrono Trigger, The World Ends With You, Parasite Eve... If they can't get something profitable out of those, hoping for a decent Mana game is going to be an even longer shot.

[fizzmaister]

Except SD3 doesn't support three player normally. :/

True, but there's a patch a to fix that. I remember playing SD3 in college with my friend. We had the translation, 3 player, and color improvement patches applied. We were able to get netplay working and we played from two different dorm buildings over the school's network with just a tiny bit of issue at first.

[danzibr]

Update time!

I just got Luma. In a big port city (Tuscina or something) where there's a spy.

I think I understand Gnoman's old comment about making sure you keep all your magic leveled up since there's a vital spell end-game. I can't be certain, but I'd bet it's Shade's Dispel Magic.

[OracleofWuffing]

Nah, you haven't yet got the plothook that regards the end-game important spell. Though, the important spell isn't necessary if you're good with the boomerang, due to a programming oversight.

Maybe I also need to do a runthrough of the game, too. I remember grinding weapons occasionally, but I never really sat aside the time to grind spells, so the only things I remember being of significant level were Undine (due to healing) and Luma (due to Lucent Beam).

[danzibr]

Nah, you haven't yet got the plothook that regards the end-game important spell. Though, the important spell isn't necessary if you're good with the boomerang, due to a programming oversight.

Maybe I also need to do a runthrough of the game, too. I remember grinding weapons occasionally, but I never really sat aside the time to grind spells, so the only things I remember being of significant level were Undine (due to healing) and Luma (due to Lucent Beam).
Oh. Huh.

I just got Dryad, seemingly the last spirit, and along with it (him? her?) seemingly the last magic. Time to grind another one up...

Max level right now is 7. I can't bring myself to go above 5. So much grinding.

[KillianHawkeye]

Oh. Huh.

I just got Dryad, seemingly the last spirit, and along with it (him? her?) seemingly the last magic. Time to grind another one up...

Max level right now is 7. I can't bring myself to go above 5. So much grinding.

Dryad is, indeed, the last mana spirit, but she has a third spell that will transform the hero's sword into the true Mana Sword. This ability only becomes available at a certain point in the story (phrased thusly to avoid unnecessary spoilers).

[danzibr]

Dryad is, indeed, the last mana spirit, but she has a third spell that will transform the hero's sword into the true Mana Sword. This ability only becomes available at a certain point in the story (phrased thusly to avoid unnecessary spoilers).
Speaking of the Mana Sword, mine is 2 levels lower than ALL my other weapons. Bummer.

[KillianHawkeye]

Speaking of the Mana Sword, mine is 2 levels lower than ALL my other weapons. Bummer.

Hmm....... I do recall that there are some weapon orbs in treasure chests that I suppose are missable. I'm not sure if any of those are sword orbs, though. :smallconfused:


EDIT:
Did you loot the King's treasure room after clearing out the Pandoran ruins?
Did you find the chest with the sword orb in Northtown ruins?
Have you been to the Grand Palace yet?

[danzibr]

Hmm....... I do recall that there are some weapon orbs in treasure chests that I suppose are missable. I'm not sure if any of those are sword orbs, though. :smallconfused:


EDIT:
Did you loot the King's treasure room after clearing out the Pandoran ruins?
Did you find the chest with the sword orb in Northtown ruins?
Have you been to the Grand Palace yet?
Hmm, to answer your questions, no, maybe, and I think I just got there.

The good news I read that if you miss an orb, the next chest will have two. Problem is the last sword orb I got was from a boss, not a chest.

[DigoDragon]

I seem to remember that after all is said and done and I'm ready to tackle the final dungeon of the game, I'm always 1 orb short... for the axe.

[Sir Enigma]

Both the axe and the glove are missing an orb - if you don't find any in the Mana Fortress, those two will always be level 7 at the end of the game.

Also, it doesn't matter if you've missed some sword orbs - there's a plot point late in the game that gives you all the ones you missed.

[Gnoman]

Dryad is, indeed, the last mana spirit, but she has a third spell that will transform the hero's sword into the true Mana Sword. This ability only becomes available at a certain point in the story (phrased thusly to avoid unnecessary spoilers).

THIS is the vital spirit to have at max level, BTW.

[danzibr]

THIS is the vital spirit to have at max level, BTW.
Fiddlesticks. Only got her (?) up to 5. Time to grind some more...

[danzibr]

Beat it!

I'm not sure what plot twist people were talking about. Maybe
The fact that the boy's mom is the Mana Tree?
My earlier impression remains. Overall I enjoyed it, but I certainly don't think it's that great a game, regardless of when it was made.

At the beginning it was fresh. Lots of weapons, ARPG, but lots of back and forth. Boss fights were unique and challenging (until I started spamming magic).

Later on it was very redundant. Level all your magic over and over, start seeing reused bosses. All fighting is pretty much the same.

Time to figure out what old-school RPG I never played for a blind LP. Seiken Densetsu 3? I'll have to find some good candidates.

[DodgerH2O]

The great thing about Secret of Mana is what's already been said. Multiplayer. I only got to the end because I had a buddy to game with. We took turns with the cartridge when we weren't hanging out, and we'd grind up spell and weapon levels in the current area without advancing plot, then next time we had a weekend all our gear was caught up and the bosses were beatable.

Got three of us to try it on a console a few years ago, and it was still pretty fun, the main thing I'd want in a modern adaptation would be a larger screen size when using more players, and more variation in attacks with a single weapon (maybe 3 attack buttons instead of one, doesn't need much).

[Psyren]

If you're up for it and not burned out on ARPGs, SD3 would be the one to go for. There'll be a lot of "hey, I remember that!" moments that will keep you smiling. (I remember running into the Cannon Travel guy for the first time...)

There's also not nearly as much grinding, unless you're dead set on second class change during the God Beast fights (i.e. the absolute earliest you can do that.) The only drawback is that, without Angela, you'll end up light on abilities during the first class change.

[Brother Oni]

My earlier impression remains. Overall I enjoyed it, but I certainly don't think it's that great a game, regardless of when it was made.

While it has its issues with the later game, you still need to bear in mind that the lessons learned from it have been subsequently integrated and improved upon in almost every ARPG since it was released 22 years ago.

It's like criticising The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings books for being full of fantasy cliches.