Convince me a beast master is a viable class, without playing a gnome on a dinosaur

[djreynolds]

You guys are great. Great insight and experience. Our ranger is a beast master. What can he do to get better as that? Multiclassing is okay. He's an Archer and half-elf. We are 3rd level. You helped me out with my fighter in previous posts (cunning knight and iron scoundrel and going war priest).

[Lolzyking]

Don't be a beast master, the Ranger spell list contains all the spells needed to bull**** a real animal companion anyway.

Conjure Eight cr 1/4 giant owls, ride one of them, you have animal handling right? try to keep it as a mount.


IE
Speak with animals+animal friendship+conjure animals

OR conivince the dm to let any cr 1/4 creature be a beast master pet

and get a giant owl.

[Naanomi]

The Beastmaster with a giant crab in our group seems to do just fine, it has good AC and grapples well for combat control

[DivisibleByZero]

Better yet, convince me that it's not.

[Lolzyking]

The archetype isn't required, to do everything the archetype does, better than the archetype can do it, by the base class.

The base ranger can spam an army of eight cr 1/4th animals, 4 1/2s, 2 1s or 1 2
or mix n match so long as the total cr =2

the base ranger can attempt to tame any animal with animal handling, animal friendship, and speak with animals, if successful, any feasible creature could become its mount or pet anyway.



by going beast master, you are nerfing yourself, you could just use the conjure animal spell to conjure the same animal, whenever you need it , instead of babying it like a robot.

[djreynolds]

I can't, we really depend on his bow in combat. I apologize for being a novice. Now at 5th level he'll have two attacks and later, if we survive, his beast will have two attacks of its own which will only take one our rangers two. Now a beast can use help and disengage without his master's attack and has done so to shield the sorcerer. It's just if his wolf attacks we lose that arrow.

[djreynolds]

The Beastmaster with a giant crab in our group seems to do just fine, it has good AC and grapples well for combat control

That sounds cool, but how does that work. Does the crab need the master's attack, or these reaction?

[djreynolds]

Don't be a beast master, the Ranger spell list contains all the spells needed to bull**** a real animal companion anyway.

Conjure Eight cr 1/4 giant owls, ride one of them, you have animal handling right? try to keep it as a mount.


IE
Speak with animals+animal friendship+conjure animals

OR conivince the dm to let any cr 1/4 creature be a beast master pet

and get a giant owl.

I like it, but he likes the wolf more. But this could be used in conjunction with it. Thank you.

[Lolzyking]

Thats right nothing stops him from doing that once he gets third level spells, Infact, he could go ham and conjure a wolf pack.

[Ashrym]

Thats right nothing stops him from doing that once he gets third level spells, Infact, he could go ham and conjure a wolf pack.

What stops him is the spell known, spell slot, concentration mechanic, 1 hr duration, higher level required to get the wolf, and then the companion is still better with more hp, higher AC, better accuracy, and better damage plus the beastmaster can still have the companion plus the same spell for more wolves. The spell is less, not more or better.

There are decent options in the companion with the wolf, panther, crab, giant poisonous snake, and flying snake outside of flying mounts for small characters.

[Lolzyking]

What stops him is the spell known, spell slot, concentration mechanic, 1 hr duration, higher level required to get the wolf, and then the companion is still better with more hp, higher AC, better accuracy, and better damage plus the beastmaster can still have the companion plus the same spell for more wolves. The spell is less, not more or better.

There are decent options in the companion with the wolf, panther, crab, giant poisonous snake, and flying snake outside of flying mounts for small characters.

Once he gains 3rd level spell slots he can use one of them, with the spell prepared, to cast the spell.

He already has a wolf, commanding it to attack, while sitting back with his bow using his other attack to shoot his bow, does not break his concentration.

His wolf, along side 8 conjured wolfs, or 2 dire wolfs, or 4 wolves and 1 dire wolf, can become the vanguard of the group

[Demonic Spoon]

You guys are great. Great insight and experience. Our ranger is a beast master. What can he do to get better as that? Multiclassing is okay. He's an Archer and half-elf. We are 3rd level. You helped me out with my fighter in previous posts (cunning knight and iron scoundrel and going war priest).

Sure.

-Beasts can take reactions, so you can benefit from AOOs and the additional battlefield control - fewer enemies able to get to your squishies

-Beasts frequently have some great utility, ranging from bonus attacks to advantage on perception checks and stealth.

-Beasts can have awesome riders on their attacks, such as knockdowns, or advantage when fighting with allies in melee range (wolf).

-Beasts can get barding in addition to adding proficiency bonus to AC.

-Bonus action help at 6 means that you can maximize your own attacking, or attack twice and provide advantage for someone who really needs it - for example, a spellcaster about to dump a powerful spell that requires hitting and would benefit from advantage.


Complicated multiclassing is unnecessary.


The archetype isn't required, to do everything the archetype does, better than the archetype can do it, by the base class.

The base ranger can spam an army of eight cr 1/4th animals, 4 1/2s, 2 1s or 1 2
or mix n match so long as the total cr =2


This is absurd. A ranger can't summon anything until level 9, at which point he can do it only twice a day...at the cost of all his highest-level spell slots.

[djreynolds]

[QUOTE=Demonic Spoon;19397072]Sure.

-Beasts can take reactions, so you can benefit from AOOs and the additional battlefield control - fewer enemies able to get to your squishies

-Beasts frequently have some great utility, ranging from bonus attacks to advantage on perception checks and stealth.

-Beasts can have awesome riders on their attacks, such as knockdowns, or advantage when fighting with allies in melee range (wolf).

-Beasts can get barding in addition to adding proficiency bonus to AC.

-Bonus action help at 6 means that you can maximize your own attacking, or attack twice and provide advantage for someone who really needs it - for example, a spellcaster about to dump a powerful spell that requires hitting and would benefit from advantage.


Complicated multiclassing is unnecessary.


That's perfect. Thanks. I haven't played pen and paper since the very first edition. So really, beastmaster isn't that bad. We actually never encounter combat with everyone together at once, so if the ranger is scouting this allows the ranger to give his attack to his beast and then move and get cover. And outside of combat, a wolf's senses must shine in detection. And dragging away a buddy in combat is cool.

Now are the pet selections limited to his preferred terrain? And I like the idea of the urchins mouse. Thanks again.

[Dimcair]

Since the whole "spend your action for your beast got attacked" is now generally viewed as "spend your action for your beast to attack a specific target, swap targets, do a specific action" I believe you can comfortably spend one action at the beginning of combat to have your beast bite the **** out of things for the rest of the encounter. The question then is whether it scales approlriately.

[Giant2005]

I like the Ranger (Beastmaster)/Rogue multiclass.
Take expertise in Sleight of Hand and get yourself a nice, long-sleeved duster. You keep your flying snake concealed in your sleeves and pretend to punch things while the snake bites them. It makes you seem like a really bad-ass Monk.

[Naanomi]

Lightfoot halfling, hide under/behind your pet. People just think there is an adventuring crab wandering around

[Gwendol]

I think the pet is supposed to be tied to the area, but it doesn't have to be from the ranger natural terrain.

[ImSAMazing]

The archetype isn't required, to do everything the archetype does, better than the archetype can do it, by the base class.

The base ranger can spam an army of eight cr 1/4th animals, 4 1/2s, 2 1s or 1 2
or mix n match so long as the total cr =2

the base ranger can attempt to tame any animal with animal handling, animal friendship, and speak with animals, if successful, any feasible creature could become its mount or pet anyway.



by going beast master, you are nerfing yourself, you could just use the conjure animal spell to conjure the same animal, whenever you need it , instead of babying it like a robot.

The problem is that when you just tame a creature, it doesn't HAVE to listen to you. It still has a choice. For example, you can order a BM pet to take the Help, Use an Object, or an other action. It must listen and act to your order. If you say to your pet, tamed crab: Help me with climbing this cliff, it just can say: no, I won't. This is a big advantage of playing a BM.

[Takewo]

I like the idea of a gnome on a dinosaur. Why wouldn't you play it?

[Xetheral]

Since the whole "spend your action for your beast got attacked" is now generally viewed as "spend your action for your beast to attack a specific target, swap targets, do a specific action" I believe you can comfortably spend one action at the beginning of combat to have your beast bite the **** out of things for the rest of the encounter. The question then is whether it scales approlriately.

I've seen no evidence that your opinion on how the beastmaster rules work is generally accepted--quite the contrary.

[djreynolds]

I like the idea of a gnome on a dinosaur. Why wouldn't you play it?

It wouldn't be sweet. It'd be diabetic. All of my fellow players, play against suggestion. Which is the point I guess. My kid plays a wild magic sorcerer afraid of spiders, my DM almost fainted from evil glee.

Beastmaster has some definite need for some rewriting. But they idea is cool and it pulls you in. Just like elemental monk and air bending. A discussion for another thread. But the feedback for game play from experienced players has really helped us out. So thank you.

[KorvinStarmast]

Convince me a beast master is a viable class, without playing a gnome on a dinosaur
I now have to find a campaign where I can play a gnome ranger beastmaster on a dinosaur. This visual has infected my brain.

Should I thank you or wish you'd never posted?
Not sure.

[LordVonDerp]

I now have to find a campaign where I can play a gnome ranger beastmaster on a dinosaur. This visual has infected my brain.

Should I thank you or wish you'd never posted?
Not sure.
Try ebberron, you can be a gnome raised by hobbits.

[Vogonjeltz]

You guys are great. Great insight and experience. Our ranger is a beast master. What can he do to get better as that? Multiclassing is okay. He's an Archer and half-elf. We are 3rd level. You helped me out with my fighter in previous posts (cunning knight and iron scoundrel and going war priest).

Would you care to define "viable"?

Is there some trigger event that presaged this question?

[KorvinStarmast]

Try ebberron, you can be a gnome raised by hobbits. With the obvious nickname of Stretch ... :smallsmile:

[djreynolds]

Would you care to define "viable"?

Is there some trigger event that presaged this question?

I guess, you lose out on a lot by being a beastmaster rather than a hunter until you obtain bestial fury. Our ranger's wolf died and now he's trying obtain an owl, which is cool. It's what is available to him in our game. Aside from game play, it's not much of combatant. It's almost a familiar, and doesn't seem like fair trade off for losing hordebreaker, evade, or volley. Still fun in roleplaying aspect, but you could just have a familiar feat.

[Malifice]

The archetype isn't required, to do everything the archetype does, better than the archetype can do it, by the base class.

The base ranger can spam an army of eight cr 1/4th animals, 4 1/2s, 2 1s or 1 2
or mix n match so long as the total cr =2

the base ranger can attempt to tame any animal with animal handling, animal friendship, and speak with animals, if successful, any feasible creature could become its mount or pet anyway.



by going beast master, you are nerfing yourself, you could just use the conjure animal spell to conjure the same animal, whenever you need it , instead of babying it like a robot.

1) What level is this possible?

2) Who controls the creature? You or the DM? Is it as reliable as the animal companion?

3) Doesnt answer the OP.

[Jamesps]

... So here's my build for a halfling riding a dinosaur.

[Lolzyking]

1) What level is this possible?

2) Who controls the creature? You or the DM? Is it as reliable as the animal companion?

3) Doesnt answer the OP.

1) level 9, which is in the middle of the majority of action I see in a campaign, 1-7 go fast, 8-15 last forever, most campaigns don't see 16-20

2)The summoned creatures are friendly to you and your
companions. Roll initiative for the summoned creatures
as a group, which has its own turns. They obey any
verbal commands that you issue to them (no action
required by you). If you don’t issue any commands to
them, they defend themselves from hostile creatures,
but otherwise take no actions.
they are more reliable in my opinion, due to costing no action to order around, and with no orders defend the group, at level 15 the ranger can conjure woodland beings, which is a silly broken spell, with the same rules.

3) it answers it in my own opinion, which is a base ranger, once they reach level 9 it fills the pet role better than the companion.

[Vogonjeltz]

I guess, you lose out on a lot by being a beastmaster rather than a hunter until you obtain bestial fury. Our ranger's wolf died and now he's trying obtain an owl, which is cool. It's what is available to him in our game. Aside from game play, it's not much of combatant. It's almost a familiar, and doesn't seem like fair trade off for losing hordebreaker, evade, or volley. Still fun in roleplaying aspect, but you could just have a familiar feat.

Yes...except that a familiar has 1 hp and deals no damage at all, being incapable of attacking.

A Beastmaster Owl would have 12 hit points a higher AC and do damage. Oh, and the familiar Owl costs a spell slot, an hour, and 10 gold everytime it dies because a stiff breeze took it to 0 hp.

The only difference between the Hunter and Beastmaster is Hunter's Prey, Defensive Tactics, and Multiattack vs Ranger's Companion, Exceptional Training, and Bestial Fury. i.e. Some situational effects vs Bonus Hit points and better attacking and/or advantage on the Ranger's attacks.

I'd also note the level 15 ability wherein Ranger spells that would target self affect the companion, this provides some substantial buffing at later levels with stoneskin making the Animal Companion a raging Barbarian in terms of durability.

1st: Cure Wounds
2nd: Barkskin, Darkvision, Lesser Restoration, Pass Without Trace, Protection from Poison
3rd: Nondetection, Protection from Energy, Water Breathing, Water Walk
4th: Freedom of Movement, Stoneskin

[Ashrym]

Yes...except that a familiar has 1 hp and deals no damage at all, being incapable of attacking.

A Beastmaster Owl would have 12 hit points a higher AC and do damage. Oh, and the familiar Owl costs a spell slot, an hour, and 10 gold everytime it dies because a stiff breeze took it to 0 hp.

The only difference between the Hunter and Beastmaster is Hunter's Prey, Defensive Tactics, and Multiattack vs Ranger's Companion, Exceptional Training, and Bestial Fury. i.e. Some situational effects vs Bonus Hit points and better attacking and/or advantage on the Ranger's attacks.

I'd also note the level 15 ability wherein Ranger spells that would target self affect the companion, this provides some substantial buffing at later levels with stoneskin making the Animal Companion a raging Barbarian in terms of durability.

1st: Cure Wounds
2nd: Barkskin, Darkvision, Lesser Restoration, Pass Without Trace, Protection from Poison
3rd: Nondetection, Protection from Energy, Water Breathing, Water Walk
4th: Freedom of Movement, Stoneskin

An owl familiar wouldn't cost a spell slot as a ritual. I would question the usefulness of some of those spells too.

Sharing spells needs to fit in some suitable spells just to be used but spells known is a bit tight. That is an ability that could be free from 3rd level and it would make little difference due to less spells.

I don't think the beastmaster is nearly as basically as some posters (a can see the action rules to control the companion as clunky and awkward) but that ability needs planning from an early point and can restrict spell selection further. I think WotC should list the design intent on the beastmaster because it looks like it is meant more for utility than combat to me.

[GiantOctopodes]

Yes...except that a familiar has 1 hp and deals no damage at all, being incapable of attacking.

A Beastmaster Owl would have 12 hit points a higher AC and do damage. Oh, and the familiar Owl costs a spell slot, an hour, and 10 gold everytime it dies because a stiff breeze took it to 0 hp.

The only difference between the Hunter and Beastmaster is Hunter's Prey, Defensive Tactics, and Multiattack vs Ranger's Companion, Exceptional Training, and Bestial Fury. i.e. Some situational effects vs Bonus Hit points and better attacking and/or advantage on the Ranger's attacks.

I'd also note the level 15 ability wherein Ranger spells that would target self affect the companion, this provides some substantial buffing at later levels with stoneskin making the Animal Companion a raging Barbarian in terms of durability.

1st: Cure Wounds
2nd: Barkskin, Darkvision, Lesser Restoration, Pass Without Trace, Protection from Poison
3rd: Nondetection, Protection from Energy, Water Breathing, Water Walk
4th: Freedom of Movement, Stoneskin

True, but keep in mind that the Familiar can deliver touch spells for the Ranger from level 4 (earliest the feat would be available unless human). Genuinely curious, AFB atm, do you know / has anyone created a list of touch spells that familiars can deliver? None of them would offset the survivability that Barkskin, protection from Poison, Freedom of Movement or Stoneskin would provide, but they could provide utility in their own right.

[Malifice]

1) level 9, which is in the middle of the majority of action I see in a campaign, 1-7 go fast, 8-15 last forever, most campaigns don't see 16-20

Thats 8 levels of not being a beast master. So the majority of your career.


2)The summoned creatures are friendly to you and your
companions. Roll initiative for the summoned creatures
as a group, which has its own turns. They obey any
verbal commands that you issue to them (no action
required by you). If you don’t issue any commands to
them, they defend themselves from hostile creatures,
but otherwise take no actions.
they are more reliable in my opinion, due to costing no action to order around, and with no orders defend the group, at level 15 the ranger can conjure woodland beings, which is a silly broken spell, with the same rules.

Doesnt this use your conentration slot (so no Hunters mark?). Doesnt say anything about the animals being anything other than friendly animals (with animal intelligence). How complex can the commands be exactly? And how far will the animals go? Very DM dependent.


3) it answers it in my own opinion, which is a base ranger, once they reach level 9 it fills the pet role better than the companion.[/QUOTE]

Disagree.

[Vogonjeltz]

An owl familiar wouldn't cost a spell slot as a ritual. I would question the usefulness of some of those spells too.

Sharing spells needs to fit in some suitable spells just to be used but spells known is a bit tight. That is an ability that could be free from 3rd level and it would make little difference due to less spells.

I don't think the beastmaster is nearly as basically as some posters (a can see the action rules to control the companion as clunky and awkward) but that ability needs planning from an early point and can restrict spell selection further. I think WotC should list the design intent on the beastmaster because it looks like it is meant more for utility than combat to me.

True, if the Ranger got it via the Ritual Casting feat instead of the Magic Initiate feat it wouldn't cost a spell slot. It's still a 1 hp wonder that is basically useless for it's theoretical purpose (in combat providing advantage to the Ranger).


True, but keep in mind that the Familiar can deliver touch spells for the Ranger from level 4 (earliest the feat would be available unless human). Genuinely curious, AFB atm, do you know / has anyone created a list of touch spells that familiars can deliver? None of them would offset the survivability that Barkskin, protection from Poison, Freedom of Movement or Stoneskin would provide, but they could provide utility in their own right.

Not off the top of my head...I'm not sure if there are any touch spells that the Ranger has which would be relevant.

Cure Wounds? I guess that's useful in the niche instance in which the target is more than 30 feet away from the Ranger? Everything else seems to be a range other than touch.

[Noldo]

I suppose that the key to playing a Beastmaster as written (i.e. at early levels Ranger can swap its own action into an action taken by the beast) would be to get a way to contribute using a bonus action. That way the ranger could trade his/her own attack for the beast’s attack (a favorable trade-off if one goes purely based on numbers) but still contribute otherwise.

The problem is that many of the bonus attacks activate on attack (TWF, Polearm Master, Crossbow Expert) and since Ranger isn’t doing any attacking, (s)he will not qualify for those. Dip Sorcerer for quicken cantrip (burning spell slots for sorcery points)?