Warshaper

[J-H]

I only found 1 Warshaper handbook online, and it's extremely short and old. Why isn't there more on this class?

I see no RAW restriction on the number of natural weapons. An ECL 8character (Afflicted Were-rat/Fighter 4/Warshaper 1) who stays in his hybrid form (avoiding the need to spend combat actions generating weapons) can thus end up with a full attack routine of:
Bite
Claw/Claw
Gore
Tail slap
Tentacle/Tentacle/Tentacle/Tentacle

Although the base damage won't be great (1d6+2s for a lot of them), that's a huge number of attacks to pair up with the usual charge/pounce combos, or with sneak attack dice (full attack sneak attack with 11 levels of rogue is 45d6 sneak damage). With the Multiattack feat the to-hit penalties aren't really worse than what a TWF 3/4 BAB character like a rogue faces.

Additionally, Warshapers get extended reach, fast healing, untyped STR/CON bonuses, and immunity to critical hits and stunning... all before level 12, and free of charge.

And yet...no good guide? No discussion of class pairings, other PRCs, items, etc.?

[PaucaTerrorem]

You know how it is here. If it doesn't advance spell casting it's crap.

Me, however, loves this PrC.

[Ellowryn]

The thing with warshaper is that it either ends up being crappy to get into and doesn't do much for the build or is cheesy and overpowerful and likely to get banned or scoffed at. It does tend to shine greatly in gestalt as you can drop it on the other side of a druid build along with MoMF for some insane wild shaping. Arguably changelings (from ebberon) qualify as soon as they get to 4 BaB so that opens alot of shenanigans up as the class was not designed around the PC being able to access its abilities 24/7.

[Extra Anchovies]

Eh, it's one of the strongest noncaster PrCs (if not the strongest), but it feels cheesy because of how OP its features are. There's no RAW restriction of number of natural weapons, as has been stated, so a character can have an arbitrary (but finite) number of attacks available just by stacking on more tentacles or whatever.

A somewhat-reasonable restriction would be to limit the Warshaper to adding only one natural attack of each type that the base creature doesn't possess. That still gets insane because of how many different types of natural attacks there are. I recall a list somewhere of every different type of natural weapon in printed 3.5 material, but I can't find it.

A more reasonable restriction would be to ban the PrC and tell people to take MoMF instead.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Uh...the reasonable interpretation is that you can only benefit from one Morphic Weapon at once, and using it again ends the former effect.

Way more reasonable than banning the class.

[Venger]

Uh...the reasonable interpretation is that you can only benefit from one Morphic Weapon at once, and using it again ends the former effect.

Way more reasonable than banning the class.

That'll teach melee to try and have nice things.

Since it's an action to grow weapons, it's not like it's gonna be an issue in combat, and if there isn't an issue with your player walking around looking like a ball of arms, then you're probably playing hack n slash anyway, in which case, dealing some hp damage is hardly going to ruin anything for anyone.

There isn't a guide because there really isn't much to talk about. It's a great class. a popular route is ws ranger 5/ws5/nature's warrior 5/xx5 but unlike other prcs thre are handbooks about, such as primeval, it doesn't really change the way you play the game, you just keep on being a melee brute, you're only better at it now.

if you want tips as far as strategy/complementary stuff/how to use, check out the totemist handbook since you function in largely the same way.

[Nihilarian]

The class is good enough but there's not much to it. Most of it is just MORE. More reach, more weapons, more strength and constitution. The only really unique ability it gets is at 5th level, and most people don't think that's worth it.

[Srasy]

The reason for the restriction is because a changeling barbarian could give himself every single natural weapon ever printed in a splat book ending turning into a mutant monster with 20 plus natural weapons and if the barbarian is going around pouncing people it can easily output silly amounts of damage.

[Venger]

The reason for the restriction is because a changeling barbarian could give himself every single natural weapon ever printed in a splat book ending turning into a mutant monster with 20 plus natural weapons and if the barbarian is going around pouncing people it can easily output silly amounts of damage.

why shouldn't he be able to do that, exactly?

people don't complain when a wizard can deal NI damage with an orb of x, or when an ubercharger can deal NI damage at the end of a charge, so why is it a big deal if a warshaper deal NI/many damage via a bunch of piddling natural attacks? they're not even going to be that effective due to their poor damage, so will have a hard time doing things like overcome DR, same as archers.

if you commit to that many levels of melee, and then put warshaper on top of it, you've kind of earned this.

you could always just cap him at 10 or whatever. that works too.

[Nihilarian]

why shouldn't he be able to do that, exactly?

people don't complain when a wizard can deal NI damage with an orb of x, or when an ubercharger can deal NI damage at the end of a chargepeople complain about that stuff all the time.

[Venger]

people complain about that stuff all the time.

my point is that if someone has committed to making the suboptimal choices landing them in warshaper, it doesn't make sense to take away the one thing they're sort of good at (making natural attacks) and even then, they're still playing second fiddle to a druid, totemist, or black blood cultist.

it's basically just another mask of the guy at the gym fallacy. when a warshaper tries to make 3 or 4 tentacle attacks, everyone dogpiles on him and tells him to go stand in the corner with the dunce cap on for thinking melee can have nice things, but when a wizard polymorphs into a hydra, no one bats an eye.

my point isn't "TO exists, so everything is fine" it was more "even at low levels of optimization, people can do thing that are much more effective than a few extra claws, warshaper is not really that powerful.

[StreamOfTheSky]

The problem w/ a Warshaper guide is that a) all of its abilities are static/passive and don't necessarily have "combos" to work towards and b) it ultimately serves as a buff to some other build, it's far too short a class to be its own build... so what matters more is how you are accessing its features (Changeling? Wild Shaping Druid or Ranger? If the previous, Master of Many Forms as well? Polymorphing gish arcanist? etc...), that's what will influence your build choices and combat tactics.

I guess you can try to optimize around...
- Morphic Weapons + Imp. Natural Attack + other size boosters, to get the highest base damage on a weapon possible...without something like the Pathfinder Vital Strike feat line, I'm not sure why you'd bother...
- The extra reach + Willing Deformity (Tall) + Aberrant Reach + spiked chain / other reach weapon to make a lockdown build. The +4 str helps for tripping. Growing a morphic weapon for a human-like form that has none lets you threaten adjacent if using a reach weapon other than spiked chain.
- The +4 Con boosts breath weapon and poison DCs of your form. If you're a Dragonborn of Bahamut, you can have a breath weapon in (almost) any form.
- Fast Healing...it...exists. Make a really defensive build and win by attrition while slowly whittling away at the foe's health? Yeah, I'm out of ideas.


why shouldn't he be able to do that, exactly?

people don't complain when a wizard can deal NI damage with an orb of x, or when an ubercharger can deal NI damage at the end of a charge....

Uh...I complain about all of those things and plenty more caster tricks that don't involve damage at all. Somehow, in over a decade of playing 3E, I've never found a DM who didn't get upset at those things, either.

Anyway, getting an extra attack and immunity to crits and stunning is a pretty good haul for 1 level of a class as it is. I don't see why limiting Warshaper's bonus attacks cripples it. If you want to allow 1 per class level or allow pairs of certain natural weapons (like claws...they don't usually come solo), that's at least not crazy. I'm playing a Master of Many Forms / Warshaper in my current game, and am fine w/ the one extra weapon "nerf."

[Nihilarian]

it's basically just another mask of the guy at the gym fallacy. when a warshaper tries to make 3 or 4 tentacle attacks, everyone dogpiles on him and tells him to go stand in the corner with the dunce cap on for thinking melee can have nice things, but when a wizard polymorphs into a hydra, no one bats an eye.my eye has been bat.

Seriously, it's a good class even without shenanigans.

[Story]

my point is that if someone has committed to making the suboptimal choices landing them in warshaper, it doesn't make sense to take away the one thing they're sort of good at (making natural attacks) and even then, they're still playing second fiddle to a druid, totemist, or black blood cultist. .

There's no particular reason you can't be a Totemist Warshaper. The lack of BaB delays entry but it's not fatal to a build.

[Twurps]

.................
And yet...no good guide? No discussion of class pairings, other PRCs, items, etc.?

I never noticed this class doesn't have a guide of his own. I do remember reading about this class in a good number of handbooks though. So the class has certainly received it's fair share of 'love and attention'. I guess the class is more about rounding a build off than it is a goal in itself.

[Urpriest]

I never noticed this class doesn't have a guide of his own. I do remember reading about this class in a good number of handbooks though. So the class has certainly received it's fair share of 'love and attention'. I guess the class is more about rounding a build off than it is a goal in itself.

This.

By the way, in addition to the "all the natural weapons you could ever want" interpretation and the "only one at a time" interpretation, there's the "one of each of the ones listed in the back of the Monster Manual" interpretation and the "grow one, enhance another" interpretation. So there are plenty of gradations depending on what your DM sees as reasonable.

[Necroticplague]

I've seen plenty of discussion about it. Generally considered very good, because it's bonuses, while passive, are generally decent. The immunities is gives are very handy, extra reach is always good for melee, the stat bonuses free up two item slots in the mid levels (though its sad it doesn't stack with standard STR/CON boosting items), fast healing is handy if you lack wands or healers. Ability to grow natural weapons heavily depends on exactly how the DM interprets it, but is at least moderately useful. Generally, considered best to enter by lycanthropes or changelings ,as they never have to be in their natural form, so they can maintain the class benefits permanently. This is especially important if you fall in the 'arbitrarily large attack amount' interpretation [side note, which is the most common I've seen, followed shortly by a houserule against it. Had one DM who limited my to Class Level additional weapons, in addition to being able to enlarge all the ones I had normally].

[StreamOfTheSky]

...the stat bonuses free up two item slots in the mid levels (though its sad it doesn't stack with standard STR/CON boosting items)...

Yes, they do. They're untyped bonuses, not enhancement bonuses like the stat items. They definitely stack! :smallsmile:

[Venger]

Ability to grow natural weapons heavily depends on exactly how the DM interprets it, but is at least moderately useful. Generally, considered best to enter by lycanthropes or changelings ,as they never have to be in their natural form, so they can maintain the class benefits permanently. This is especially important if you fall in the 'arbitrarily large attack amount' interpretation [side note, which is the most common I've seen, followed shortly by a houserule against it. Had one DM who limited my to Class Level additional weapons, in addition to being able to enlarge all the ones I had normally].

there's no valid reason to cap it though. if someone else can polymorph into a rukanyr or wild shape into an octopus without anyone complaining, you shouldn't be capped at 5 for no reason. even with an arbitrary number of attacks, you'll still be lagging behind most other people.

[Story]

the stat bonuses free up two item slots in the mid levels (though its sad it doesn't stack with standard STR/CON boosting items)

Actually, the stat boost is untyped.

Edit: Swordsaged

[Necroticplague]

Yes, they do. They're untyped bonuses, not enhancement bonuses like the stat items. They definitely stack! :smallsmile:

Huh. For some reason, my memory said they were enhancement boni. Pleasantly surprised to be wrong.


there's no valid reason to cap it though. if someone else can polymorph into a rukanyr or wild shape into an octopus without anyone complaining, you shouldn't be capped at 5 for no reason. even with an arbitrary number of attacks, you'll still be lagging behind most other people.
Oh, I agree. At worst, all in can let you do is a whole ton of damage. Given how hard it is to get natural attacks to overcome DR, and special abilities that punish you for natural weapons, and the fact that weapons don't have utility use, it's a 'neat trick' at best (since at the same level you can get this, Uberchargers just got Shock Trooper and thus you both join the ranks of 'one shotting everything').

[AmberVael]

there's no valid reason to cap it though. if someone else can polymorph into a rukanyr or wild shape into an octopus without anyone complaining, you shouldn't be capped at 5 for no reason. even with an arbitrary number of attacks, you'll still be lagging behind most other people.

I'd say wanting to prevent attack routines that take a full session to complete would be a valid reason.

Another decent reason is that there are different kinds of powerful. A warshaper who can create as many natural weapons with as much damage as they want ultimately is scary in one specific aspect that doesn't make them powerful overall... but that doesn't mean that it is okay for the state of the game.

[Nihilarian]

there's no valid reason to cap it though. if someone else can polymorph into a rukanyr or wild shape into an octopus without anyone complaining, you shouldn't be capped at 5 for no reason. even with an arbitrary number of attacks, you'll still be lagging behind most other people."one of the most broken spells in the game can do it too" is not exactly a ringing endorsement.

[HurinTheCursed]

I toyed with the idea of a barbarian / fighter / bear warrior / warshaper.
It looked a bit too one-dimensional to be as fun as my current build.

[Rebel7284]

it's basically just another mask of the guy at the gym fallacy. when a warshaper tries to make 3 or 4 tentacle attacks, everyone dogpiles on him and tells him to go stand in the corner with the dunce cap on for thinking melee can have nice things, but when a wizard polymorphs into a hydra, no one bats an eye.

my point isn't "TO exists, so everything is fine" it was more "even at low levels of optimization, people can do thing that are much more effective than a few extra claws, warshaper is not really that powerful.

3-4 tentacle attacks are fine as are a few extra claws. The issue appears when there are infinite tentacles.

[ComaVision]

I never understood how anyone got the interpretation that the RAI is multiple attacks. It seems pretty clear to me that the RAI is one extra natural weapon (or set, such as teeth or horns) or one enhanced natural weapon.

[Urpriest]

I never understood how anyone got the interpretation that the RAI is multiple attacks. It seems pretty clear to me that the RAI is one extra natural weapon (or set, such as teeth or horns) or one enhanced natural weapon.

I don't think anyone has the interpretation that RAI is multiple attacks. People interpret the RAW as multiple attacks, and the RAI as essentially absent, because if there was actually enough thought behind the text to qualify as an "intention" then it would have been worded a lot more clearly.

[CIDE]

I've been of the mindset that virtually everyone is reading it wrong. Sometimes intentionally so by their own admission it seems. 'cause RAW plainly states you can't get more than one of each type of natural attacks. I.E. Only one tentacle. Every time you attempt to make another tentacle when you already have one though it increases in size. It doesn't however prohibit you at all from making more of different types of natural attacks. So the cheese of NI tentacles at colossal+ size just doesn't work and can't work. But a claw+tentacle+bite+etc at colossal (notice the lack of a "+") is fine by RAW.

I'm not entirely sure the class should be nerfed though unless it's a low powered game. Unless you open up the interpretation of natural attacks to anything/everything ever listed in the monster manuals I'm pretty sure it only still gets to hang out with some of the other imbalanced physical builds.

[Venger]

RAW plainly states you can't get more than one of each type of natural attacks. I.E. Only one tentacle.

It says no such thing. It's talking about the natural attacks of your base form, as explained in the example.



I'm not entirely sure the class should be nerfed though unless it's a low powered game. Unless you open up the interpretation of natural attacks to anything/everything ever listed in the monster manuals I'm pretty sure it only still gets to hang out with some of the other imbalanced physical builds.

yeah, but this is the important bit. warshapers really aren't that strong, and even in a lowop game, they're not going to ruin anyone's time. they don't hold a candle to a halfway decent melee brute.

[CIDE]

It says no such thing. It's talking about the natural attacks of your base form, as explained in the example.



It doesn't say that though. It doesn't specify base form, polymorphed form, or weapons you already have. Just a weapon that you have at the time of trying to use morphic weapons. The example even contradicts you by mentioning wild shape rather than base form.

[SinsI]

My reading is that you can get one single natural weapon of each kind (doing normal damage for your size) if you don't have it, and if you already had natural weapons from some other source you can increase the size of those weapons by a single category (but not the size of weapons grown via Warshaper).

[Urpriest]

My reading is that you can get one single natural weapon of each kind (doing normal damage for your size) if you don't have it, and if you already had natural weapons from some other source you can increase the size of those weapons by a single category (but not the size of weapons grown via Warshaper).

And which list of kinds of weapons are you using?

[SinsI]

Per slots:
Mouth (bite), brow (gore), arms (claw or slam), shoulders (one extra appendage on each - tentacle or arm), back (wings), lower back (tail or stinger), feet (hooves).

[Extra Anchovies]

Per slots:
Mouth (bite), brow (gore), arms (claw or slam), shoulders (one extra appendage on each - tentacle or arm), back (wings), lower back (tail or stinger), feet (hooves).

Hm. That's an interesting way to look at it. You probably mean "belt" instead of "lower back", though. I think pretty much every item in that slot is actually just a belt, and not, say, a cummerbund or something :smalltongue:

[Necroticplague]

Wasn't there some thread on this board a while back for hunting down all the different type of natural attacks explicitly for the purpose of maximizing the weapons for the 'one of each type' crowd?

[Flickerdart]

Wasn't there some thread on this board a while back for hunting down all the different type of natural attacks explicitly for the purpose of maximizing the weapons for the 'one of each type' crowd?
There was. It takes heavy advantage of things like "talons" and "pincer claws" being distinct from "claws" and "wing buffet" or "tentacle rake" being distinct from "wing" and "tentacle" respectively.

[Necroticplague]

There was. It takes heavy advantage of things like "talons" and "pincer claws" being distinct from "claws" and "wing buffet" or "tentacle rake" being distinct from "wing" and "tentacle" respectively.

Or 'spike' being different from 'spine'.

[Segev]

I think the morphic weapon class feature is actually quite clear: If you have a kind of natural weapon, you can increase it by a size category; if you do not, you can grow it.

Once you've grown one, of course, you have one, so the first clause takes over if you try to apply it again to that natural weapon type.


Off the top of my head, I do not recall if it had a restriction against increasing the size an arbitrary number of times (though at the least I think it stops being meaningful at or after Colossal).

[SinsI]

Hm. That's an interesting way to look at it. You probably mean "belt" instead of "lower back", though. I think pretty much every item in that slot is actually just a belt, and not, say, a cummerbund or something :smalltongue:

I meant what I meant. It is continuation of your spine.


Off the top of my head, I do not recall if it had a restriction against increasing the size an arbitrary number of times (though at the least I think it stops being meaningful at or after Colossal).
It is the general rule of "you cannot benefit from the same effect multiple times". Plus a Collosal sized arm is many times bigger than your whole body...

[Necroticplague]

Managed to find that thread I mentioned (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?286497-101-Natural-Weapons&highlight=natural+weapon) before, for those of the relevent camp.

[Urpriest]

I meant what I meant. It is continuation of your spine.


That doesn't work then. If you're not basing it on item slots then you're not deriving the list from anywhere, so it's essentially arbitrary.

[ShurikVch]

my eye has been bat.http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0278/7681/products/Bat_crusader_7a61dff7-8fd3-49e5-a1b3-fe0b7433ea39_medium.jpg?v=1432640953

[Dusk Eclipse]

I meant what I meant. It is continuation of your spine.


It is the general rule of "you cannot benefit from the same effect multiple times". Plus a Collosal sized arm is many times bigger than your whole body...


http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121201143834/onepiece/images/thumb/b/be/Gear_Third_Infobox.png/1000px-Gear_Third_Infobox.png
:smalltongue:

[CIDE]

It is the general rule of "you cannot benefit from the same effect multiple times". Plus a Collosal sized arm is many times bigger than your whole body...


It doesn't actually say it gets bigger. It just does damage as if it were one size bigger. So even if you did add damage several times it's not physically any larger.


Text says:


If the warshaper's form already has a natural attack of that type, the weapon deals damage as if it were one category larger.

[StreamOfTheSky]

It doesn't actually say it gets bigger. It just does damage as if it were one size bigger. So even if you did add damage several times it's not physically any larger.

I think people figure that due to the art for the class. And because it's awesome to have a Battletoads-style giant fist.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b349/zaxter1337/Dungeons%20and%20Dragons/Warshaper.jpg

Granted, she also seems to be gaining a claw in the first place along with it being comically oversized, which violates the one sure thing about the feature, that you can't do both to the same weapon. Art's never a good way to gauge how the rules of a class work, of course. But...oversized appendages....so cool! :smallwink:

[CIDE]

I think people figure that due to the art for the class. And because it's awesome to have a Battletoads-style giant fist.
http://s22.photobucket.com/user/zaxter1337/media/Dungeons%20and%20Dragons/Warshaper.jpg.html

Granted, she also seems to be gaining a claw in the first place along with it being comically oversized, which violates the one sure thing about the feature, that you can't do both to the same weapon. Art's never a good way to gauge how the rules of a class work, of course. But...oversized appendages....so cool! :smallwink:

Agreed to all of the above. Also, image is broken. I already know what it looks like though.

[SinsI]

It doesn't actually say it gets bigger.

It says you grow a natural weapon - so it does get bigger.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Also, image is broken.

Fixed, hopefully.

[CIDE]

It says you grow a natural weapon - so it does get bigger.


You grow a weapon that wasn't there. A different section covers increasing weapon size.


Fixed, hopefully.

Yep!

[Venger]

You grow a weapon that wasn't there. A different section covers increasing weapon size.

psst, it's a joke. he's making a pun. that's why he bolded the word "grow" he's not arguing that.

[Segev]

It doesn't actually say it gets bigger. It just does damage as if it were one size bigger. So even if you did add damage several times it's not physically any larger.


Text says:
If the warshaper's form already has a natural attack of that type, the weapon deals damage as if it were one category larger.

Hm. Actually, that reading neatly caps it, too. The weapon isn't one size larger; it just deals damage as if it were. No matter how many times you say, "This (for example) medium-sized weapon does damage as if it were one size larger than it is," it still is doing damage as a large-sized weapon.

Admittedly, this is RAW-in-face-of-fairly-obvious-fluff, since it all but certainly does greater damage because it does get bigger. However, it doesn't say it actually is bigger, per the rules, which means that the RAW are pretty clearly capped at a single size increase for purposes of damage. (Also, if there are any other considerations regarding its size, it is still its original size for those purposes under the rules.)

[SinsI]

I wonder if you can get any other abilities from grown weapons, or grow other parts. I.e. wings are a viable natural weapon - but if you have wings, shouldn't you also get ability to fly?
Not to mention all the other kinds of appendages you might want to grow (though things might risk turning 18+ only very quickly).

[Necroticplague]

I wonder if you can get any other abilities from grown weapons, or grow other parts. I.e. wings are a viable natural weapon - but if you have wings, shouldn't you also get ability to fly?
Nope. Just like how not all hands are capable of writing, not all wings are capable of flying. In fact, wings strong enough to use as a weapon will probably have to be too small and/or heavy to use for flight.

Of course, that's just a common sense point of view. From a RAW point of view, it doesn't say you get anything other than the natural weapon, so no dice.