Pathfinder Power Attack with 3.5 Leap Attack

[kalasulmar]

Like many of you fine fellows (and ladies), the game I run is a 3.P game, taking elements of both 3.5 and Pathfinder to try and make the experience more fun for the players by dishing out piles of options because let's face it, everybody loves having lots of toys. So my question is this, how would you rule on the compatibility of Pathfinder PA with 3.5 Leap Attack? Is giving out 9 bonus damage for every -1 of BA penalty too good for a THF barbarian that is already cranking out buckets of damage with a Goliath Greathammer? When he's raging and enlarged he really can outclass anybody else with raw numbers, but that is his job description as a barb, right?

[Sacrieur]

It's doubled or tripled.

[Ssalarn]

Some people will tell you that if it's only dealing damage, it doesn't matter. I don't really believe that. You're potentially taking the Power Attack feat and amping it up to 11, allowing a pouncing barbarian to stack on up to an extra 36 damage per hit (or upwards of 180 damage on THF routine with haste and no other extra attacks). You're getting a comparable amount of max damage to the 3.5 only version, but at an accuracy cost that's less than 1/3 of the one anticipated. The DC for the acrobatics check (assuming you use the PF skill system) is also ridiculously low; a Barbarian who meets the prerequisites will auto-succeed at it every time.

I think that when combined with the PF version of Power Attack, the feat is much, much stronger than it's intended to be. I personally wouldn't allow it simply because if introduced as a brand new PF feat, it would be obvious poor design; you're tripling the damage output from Power Attack for essentially one feat of investment (Acrobatics is a useful enough skill that it can't really be considered an opportunity cost, and Power Attack is already widely considered the best feat out there for martial characters). You'll basically just be creating another "no-brainer" feat; there wouldn't be a choice about taking that feat because literally no other feat will be as good, and that's generally a bad sign unless the feat is intended to fix something broken (which is often another kind of bad design all its own). The barbarian is already one of the top melee damage dealers in the game and one of the few who can maintain damage while moving, so the feat doesn't have anything broken to fix. That means it's just power creep and number inflation in an area that really doesn't need it.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Alright lets look at the rules for stacking multipliers.
A critical hit from a charging lance does not do quadruple damage it deals triple. When adding multipliers they go up a step instead of adding together.

Now consider is how power attack and Leap Attack actually worked in 3.5.
In 3.5 -3 to hit meant +3dmg with a one-handed weapon and +6dmg with a two-handed weapon.

Leap attack doubled the extra damage from power attack or tripled the extra dmg if the weapon was two-handed weapon. Well double +3dmg is +6dmg and triple +3dmg is +9dmg. D&D multipliers care about adding to the base not the total.

In essence the ratio becomes -1 to hit for +2 to damage for one-handed weapons and -1 to hit for+3 to damage in the case of two-handed weapons. Which is how the ratio already works when power attacking in pathfinder. A pathfinder version of leap attack should only increase the ratio another step, 1 for 3 using a one-handed weapon and 1 for 4 using a two-handed weapon.

The tricky part is how to word that, but here's by best shot.


Leap Attack
Prerequisite: Acrobatics 5 ranks, Power Attack.
Benefit: You can leap during your charge for additional damage on a single attack. If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your leap in a square from which you threaten your target, the bonus damage dealt by power attack is increased by 50% when using a one-handed weapon or by 100%(rather then by 50%) with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls.

The bonus damage if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon is half that of a two-handed weapon.


Alright that wording should have the net effect of changing the ratio to
-1 for +2 with secondary weapons
-1 for +3 with one-handed attacks and
-1 for +4 with two-handed attacks

With the additional effect of limited the bonus damage to a single attack.

Power attack changed drastically in Pathfinder so any feat or class feature that modified power attack should be similarly altered when ported to pathfinder.

[Ssalarn]

Alright lets look at the rules for stacking multipliers.
A critical hit from a charging lance does not do quadruple damage it deals triple. ***

While you've got the rule basically right, I wanted to note that this statement is wrong as far as Pathfinder goes and could confuse the issue. A lance has a x3 critical multiplier and deals double damage on a charge, meaning that it does, in fact, deal quadruple damage when critting on a mounted charge (5x damage with Spirited Charge).

[kalasulmar]

Using the "multipliers don't multiply" rule does seem to be the best solution. Thanks for the feedback.