Nasty combo of wizarding classes

[Max Caysey]

Hello...

I was talking to a fiend of mine, who said that he was contemplating a wizard build of incantatrix and initiate of sevenfold veil...


He told me, that this was quite a nasty combo. I might be slow, but could someone elaborate and explain why this is SO powerful?

[AvatarVecna]

Well, I'm less than familiar with the tricks IotSV uses, but I know Incantatrix well enough to know what it's capable of in the wrong hands. Essentially, what it boils down to is "free metamagic". Incantatrix get a bunch of free metamagic feats, and they have ways or both reducing and outright ignoring the level increase that metamagic spells usually require. Let me give you an example blaster wizardLet me give you an example blaster wizard:

Classes
Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5

Feats:
Arcane Thesis (Disintegrate)
all metamagic feats mentioned below (there's ways to buy feats, so this isn't an issue)

So this wizard flies through a city towards a growing army of powerful warriors, and wants to wreck the army without spending more than a single spell to do so. He casts Disintegrate with the following feats in effect:

Snowcasting (makes it a [cold] spell)

Usually +0, now -1
Energy Sustitution: Sonic (makes it a [sonic] spell instead of a [cold] spell)
City Magic (damage is now half sonic, half city)
Born of Three Thunders (sonic damage is half sonic, half electricity)
Invisible Spell (makes the spell effect invisible)
Sanctum Spell (makes the spell more powerful in your sanctum and weaker outside it)

Usually +1, now +0
Silent Spell (no mumbo jumbo necessary)
Still Spell (no jazz hands necessary)
Transdimensional Spell (ghosts and other creatures in adjacent dimensions can be effected)

Usually +2, now +0
Empower Spell (x1.5 damage)
Split Ray (makes each ray split into two rays)

Usually +3, now +1
Chain Spell (affects 20 secondary targets for half damage)
Maximize Spell (normal damage maximized)
Repeat Spell (total spell effect repeats next round)

Usually +4, now +2
Irresistible Spell (spell allows no save, or adds +10 to save DC, if you're using the errata)
Twin Spell (spell effect takes place twice)

Total effect
The above spell with the above metamagic results in the following occurring:

The wizard fires 4 invisible rays at the army of warriors, with no indication that he cast a spell other than him grabbing a handful of snow from his spell component pouch; this requires him to expend an 8th lvl spell. Each ray, upon striking a warrior, deals that warrior 20d6+240 damage (half city damage, quarter sonic damage, quarter electricity damage), or half damage if they save (if the spell allows a save at all). Once that happens, each ray branches out to hit another 20 warriors each for 10d6+120 damage each (with the same damage percents and potential half damage on the maybe-save). Next round, this exact same thing happens without the wizard having to do anything.

Needless to say, that army has probably just had 168 warriors get hit by some sort of spell that came from nobody knows where. And considering the damage involved, a lot of them are probably dead. From one spell.

And you can do this same thing with AoO spells. Hell, you can do this with mass summoning spells. Free metamagic on a build that can really abuse free metamagic is ridiculously powerful. Hell, the level 3 ability (which you'd normally get around level 8 in-game) lets you tack on metamagic effects to existing spells; while that doesn't help you blast better, it lets you extend/persist your buff spells for free (technically, you need to make a skill check to succeed, but skills are easily optimized), and that's just one use. Literally every ability of the Incantatrix is focused on abusing metamagic, and the capstone being metamagic reduction across the board is like icing on the cake...or insult with your injury.

[Chronos]

Iot7V and Incantatrix don't have any particular synergy with each other, beyond a few overlapping prerequisites. They're just both very powerful full-casting PrCs, and two powerful things is more powerful than one powerful thing.

[shaikujin]

I think Iot7V does synergize well with Incantatrix considering they are 2 very different PrCs.

Both require not banning the Abjuration school.
Both PrCs share 2 of the skill requirements.
Most importantly, depending on DMs, Io7V veils can be persisted using Incantatrix. I suspect this is what your friend is referring to.

Explanation:
The Wardings/Veils of the Iot7V are spell effects that normally last only for a 1 min per level.
Each veil is the equivalent of certain spell lvl (red veil = lvl 4, violet = lvl 8)
Incantatrix can add use the Metamagic Effect class ability to apply Persistent Spell to spell effects that are already in place. The veils qualify as spell effects that are already in place. In effect, veils can be persisted (possibly even maximised, extended etc).

See Priya for a detailed build:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?280365-Priya-the-Prismatic-Priestess-Buffs-Across-the-Spectrum

[Max Caysey]

I think Iot7V does synergize well with Incantatrix considering they are 2 very different PrCs.

Both require not banning the Abjuration school.
Both PrCs share 2 of the skill requirements.
Most importantly, depending on DMs, Io7V veils can be persisted using Incantatrix. I suspect this is what your friend is referring to.

Explanation:
The Wardings/Veils of the Iot7V are spell effects that normally last only for a 1 min per level.
Each veil is the equivalent of certain spell lvl (red veil = lvl 4, violet = lvl 8)
Incantatrix can add use the Metamagic Effect class ability to apply Persistent Spell to spell effects that are already in place. The veils qualify as spell effects that are already in place. In effect, veils can be persisted (possibly even maximised, extended etc).

See Priya for a detailed build:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?280365-Priya-the-Prismatic-Priestess-Buffs-Across-the-Spectrum


So basically you can have all seven veil persisted... ??? :smalleek:

[AvatarVecna]

So basically you can have all seven veil persisted... ??? :smalleek:

Technically, that's possible...but an Incantatrix can't just add metamagic to a standing effect infinite times per day; they're limited to doing it (3+Int mod) times per day, and even then they have to succeed on the Spellcraft check. Now, that second part's not hard to work around, since skills are easy to optimize, but persisting all 7 requires seven uses of this ability, which is a significant chunk of your daily uses of that ability (unless you've got nigh-infinite Intelligence, in which case the point is moot for a lot of reasons instead of just that one). Also, pulling this off requires at least Incantatrix 3 and IotSV 7, so it doesn't actually get that bad until about 15th level, when it caps out with all 7 veils persisted every day; of course, each veil can be ended by the way mentioned in the spell description, so it's not exactly invulnerable.

But yeah, that's a hell of a trick if you can pull it off.

[shaikujin]

So basically you can have all seven veil persisted... ??? :smalleek:

At level 7, Iot7V can activate a (singular) Warding 4 times a day. Double Warding ability allows 2 veils at the same time in the Warding.

Because the Warding is referred to as a singular thing, and there's no mention that one can have more than 1 Warding in effect (ie no specifically allowed stacking of ongoing spells, so only the latest one takes effect), I'd say the most is 2 veils due to double warding.

However, that's already plenty. The Indigo and Violet veils renders the lesser ones mostly redundant.

Of course, at your tables, your DM/group may choose to allow burning all 4/day uses and have 4 wardings to be up and in effect, each imbued with 2 veils so that you have all 7, plus 1 redundant one.

[Aleolus]

Ok, I have seen the Incantatrix mentioned numerous times on this forum, and I have never heard of or seen it before. Where is it from?

[shaikujin]

Ok, I have seen the Incantatrix mentioned numerous times on this forum, and I have never heard of or seen it before. Where is it from?

There are 2 versions,
The one in Player's Guide to Faerun is 3.5 and the one mostly referred to when spellcraft checks to apply metamagic is brought up.

The version in Magic of Faerun is 3.0 and a lot weaker. It also doesn't have the spellcraft-metamagic ability mentioned above.

[Aleolus]

Ok, that explains it. I have had almost no chances to look through any of the Faerun stuff.