[3.5] Setting yourself and others on fire

[Uncle Pine]

Repost from the Q&A thread as it got buried and I don't think it'll ever get an answer:

Q50

a) If you are on fire, can you set your opponents on fire by attacking them, grappling them, or by any other means?
b) If your target is on fire, can you catch fire by attacking it, grappling it, or by any other means?

The following are the only rules I found on catching fire:

Characters exposed to burning oil, bonfires, and noninstantaneous magic fires might find their clothes, hair, or equipment on fire. Spells with an instantaneous duration don’t normally set a character on fire, since the heat and flame from these come and go in a flash.

Characters at risk of catching fire are allowed a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid this fate. If a character’s clothes or hair catch fire, he takes 1d6 points of damage immediately. In each subsequent round, the burning character must make another Reflex saving throw. Failure means he takes another 1d6 points of damage that round. Success means that the fire has gone out. (That is, once he succeeds on his saving throw, he’s no longer on fire.)

A character on fire may automatically extinguish the flames by jumping into enough water to douse himself. If no body of water is at hand, rolling on the ground or smothering the fire with cloaks or the like permits the character another save with a +4 bonus.

Those unlucky enough to have their clothes or equipment catch fire must make DC 15 Reflex saves for each item. Flammable items that fail take the same amount of damage as the character.

If there is no definite RAW answer to the questions above, given that "characters exposed to burning oil, bonfires, and noninstantaneous magic fires might find their clothes, hair, or equipment on fire" and "characters at risk of catching fire are allowed a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid this fate" would you find unreasonable to say that:
1- if you are on fire and attack an opponent in melee (without reach weapons), he's allowed a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid catching fire;
2- if you are on fire and succesfully grapple an opponent, he's allowed a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid catching fire;
3- if your opponent is on fire and attacks you in melee (without reach weapons), you're allowed a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid catching fire;
4- if your opponent is on fire and succesfully grapples you, you're allowed a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid catching fire.

Thanks for the attention.


http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/SetOnFire_3250.jpg*
*Unless you have fire resistance 6+ (it's only 3.000 gp for a novice cloak of Desert Wind, call 555-AM-ON-FIRE! That's 555-AM-ON-FIRE!).

[A_S]

As you say, the RAW doesn't provide a super clear answer to your questions. By my reading, the strictest interpretation would be that you can only set others on fire if the fire currently burning you is magical in nature, since otherwise, they're not being exposed to any of the three things mentioned by the SRD entry.

However, it seems a bit ludicrous that non-magical fire can't spread, and your rulings seem like a reasonable way to handle this. I would maybe not force characters to save for weapon attacks...if a guy whose clothes are on fire hits you with his sword, are you really going to catch fire from that? Especially since the Flaming weapon enhancement doesn't set people on fire. I'd probably limit it to grappling, plus unarmed/natural attacks.

[grarrrg]

I would maybe not force characters to save for weapon attacks...if a guy whose clothes are on fire hits you with his sword, are you really going to catch fire from that? Especially since the Flaming weapon enhancement doesn't set people on fire. I'd probably limit it to grappling, plus unarmed/natural attacks.

^ This ^
Weapon attacks don't expose you to enough of the flame, and unarmed probably wouldn't for that matter either.
But Grapple? Yes, grapple should set people on fire.
"They can't grab me if I'm on fire."

Source (http://drmcninja.com/archives/comic/4p15/)

[THEChanger]

For further exploration into the combat usage of setting yourself on fire, I will leave the Spelltouched Feat Controlled Immolation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/spelltouchedFeats.htm#controlledImmolation) for your perusal. It doesn't give any further clarification as to just how "catching on fire" operates, but it is rather amusing. Soak yourself in oil, put a torch to your skin every 1d4 rounds. Good times.

As a side note, I would agree that using a weapon probably wouldn't spread the flames, but an unarmed strike/natural weapon/grapple would have the standard chance to do so.

[frogglesmash]

I don't think I'd allow saves against catching fire when grappling, either that or I'd increase the DCs to 25. Another question is what happens when someone is covered in some sort of accelerant i.e. dowsed in oil? I'd think that increasing the save and/or damage might be appropriate. Something like a +5-10 to the DC and/or 2d6 fire damage per round instead of the usual 1d6.

[Elandris Kajar]

I think that it should be a much more difficult save in a grapple, as they are continually grabbing you. So either several saves/round or one DC 25-30 save.

[Uncle Pine]

First of all, thanks for all the inputs!


However, it seems a bit ludicrous that non-magical fire can't spread, and your rulings seem like a reasonable way to handle this. I would maybe not force characters to save for weapon attacks...if a guy whose clothes are on fire hits you with his sword, are you really going to catch fire from that? Especially since the Flaming weapon enhancement doesn't set people on fire. I'd probably limit it to grappling, plus unarmed/natural attacks.
Well, flaming weapons don't deal damage to the wielder either, but I see your point. Especially considering that not even torches set people on fire.


"They can't grab me if I'm on fire."

Source (http://drmcninja.com/archives/comic/4p15/)
Being on fire is so much better than not being on fire.


For further exploration into the combat usage of setting yourself on fire, I will leave the Spelltouched Feat Controlled Immolation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/spelltouchedFeats.htm#controlledImmolation) for your perusal. It doesn't give any further clarification as to just how "catching on fire" operates, but it is rather amusing. Soak yourself in oil, put a torch to your skin every 1d4 rounds. Good times.
You'd think that Controlled Immolation is a good idea if you plan to set yourself on fire often, but it isn't because it forces you to immolate yourself every 1d4 round while without the feat you can be on fire 24/24.


I don't think I'd allow saves against catching fire when grappling, either that or I'd increase the DCs to 25. Another question is what happens when someone is covered in some sort of accelerant i.e. dowsed in oil? I'd think that increasing the save and/or damage might be appropriate. Something like a +5-10 to the DC and/or 2d6 fire damage per round instead of the usual 1d6.

I think that it should be a much more difficult save in a grapple, as they are continually grabbing you. So either several saves/round or one DC 25-30 save.
Keep in mind that it's "just" fire. Why would it be more difficult to resist catching fire while grappling a flaming Commoner than it is while walking through a forest wreathed in flames (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#forestFiresCr6)?

[SangoProduction]

Keep in mind that it's "just" fire. Why would it be more difficult to resist catching fire while grappling a flaming Commoner than it is while walking through a forest wreathed in flames (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#forestFiresCr6)?


Well, there's a difference between hugging the fire, and running through it.

[frogglesmash]

Keep in mind that it's "just" fire. Why would it be more difficult to resist catching fire while grappling a flaming Commoner than it is while walking through a forest wreathed in flames (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#forestFiresCr6)?


Well, there's a difference between hugging the fire, and running through it.

Basically what Sango said, not catching on fire isn't that hard when you have the opportunity to avoid the actual flames/keep moving, and it's not like running through a forest fire is completely safe if you make that DC 15 save, there's still heat damage and smoke inhalation to worry about. It's like the difference between walking across hot coals and being buried in them.

[bekeleven]

I love thread titles that would provoke much different reactions on different forums.

[Uncle Pine]

Well, there's a difference between hugging the fire, and running through it.

Basically what Sango said, not catching on fire isn't that hard when you have the opportunity to avoid the actual flames/keep moving, and it's not like running through a forest fire is completely safe if you make that DC 15 save, there's still heat damage and smoke inhalation to worry about. It's like the difference between walking across hot coals and being buried in them.
Look at it from another perspective: if you sit on a lit bonfire, you can make a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid catching fire. What makes Bob the Searing Fighter's fire so much hotter and harder to resist to justify an increase of +5/+10/+15 to the DC?

[frogglesmash]

Look at it from another perspective: if you sit on a lit bonfire, you can make a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid catching fire. What makes Bob the Searing Fighter's fire so much hotter and harder to resist to justify an increase of +5/+10/+15 to the DC?

Sitting in a bonfire would be represented by you voluntarily failing your save. On the other hand if you got thrown into a bonfire, you have the opportunity mitigate your chances of catching fire because unlike in a grapple you can pat yourself down, move out of the fire, try not to keep any one part of you in contact with the flames for too long etc. etc. Basically it's not an issue of the fire being hotter, but of you not being in complete control.

[Psyren]

I think getting hit by a flaming sword would count as exposure to an "instantaneous magic fire" and thus not be at risk to ignite you.

[Uncle Pine]

Sitting in a bonfire would be represented by you voluntarily failing your save. On the other hand if you got thrown into a bonfire, you have the opportunity mitigate your chances of catching fire because unlike in a grapple you can pat yourself down, move out of the fire, try not to keep any one part of you in contact with the flames for too long etc. etc. Basically it's not an issue of the fire being hotter, but of you not being in complete control.

I still don't think that it justifies such a steep increase in the DC, let alone an increased damage. Why would voluntarily setting yourself on fire without any resistance (1d6 fire damage/turn) deal less damage than being grappled or pinned by someone on fire (hypothetically 2d6 fire damage/turn). Balance-wise, it would turn what it's currently a minor yet stylish inconvenient (fire) into a killer tactic at low levels.

Another example: a character that's been tied up (= bound as per the Use Rope skill, thus helpless) and thrown into a bonfire is allowed a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid catching fire despite having much control of his movements.

[bekeleven]

I think getting hit by a flaming sword would count as exposure to an "instantaneous magic fire" and thus not be at risk to ignite you.
It's brief exposure to an ongoing magical fire.

[frogglesmash]

I still don't think that it justifies such a steep increase in the DC, let alone an increased damage. Why would voluntarily setting yourself on fire without any resistance (1d6 fire damage/turn) deal less damage than being grappled or pinned by someone on fire (hypothetically 2d6 fire damage/turn). Balance-wise, it would turn what it's currently a minor yet stylish inconvenient (fire) into a killer tactic at low levels.

Another example: a character that's been tied up (= bound as per the Use Rope skill, thus helpless) and thrown into a bonfire is allowed a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid catching fire despite having much control of his movements.

The increase in damage I suggested was only if you happened to be covered in some sort of accelerant i.e. oil, kerosene, or alcohol and I feel it is appropriate because if you are completely covered in the stuff the fire will probably burn hotter than usual, though now that I reflect on it it might make more sense to have the increased damage only last for a couple of rounds to simulate having the accelerant burning away.
As for the tied up victim, though bound, he can still roll around and it's not like the fire is actively pulling him into it, so while at a disadvantage (represented by having an effective dex of 0) it is still possible for him to escape from the flames.