bard vs sorcerer

[Ettina]

What are some advantages of playing a bard instead of a sorcerer? I keep focusing on the poorer spellcasting of bards, what am I missing?

[Urpriest]

It's apples and oranges. You'll almost never be considering the two classes in the same context/for the same build goals, so it never comes up.

[Keltest]

It's apples and oranges. You'll almost never be considering the two classes in the same context/for the same build goals, so it never comes up.

Exactly. Bards have a different spell list that does different things and have other non-spell tools (such as their inspirations) that allow them to do different things than a sorcerer.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Exactly. Bards have a different spell list that does different things and have other non-spell tools (such as their inspirations) that allow them to do different things than a sorcerer.

Not to mention that most bard PrCs give access to benefits that sorcerers struggle to copy.

[Ettina]

Not to mention that most bard PrCs give access to benefits that sorcerers struggle to copy.

Can you give me some examples?

[Hiro Quester]

Bard PrC Sublime Chord gives access to all sorcerer spells from fourth level to ninth level.

Plus it gets bard spells like Irresistable dance and hindsight as sixth level spells, which SC gets at about 13th level ( if you pick it up at 11th).

A 2level dip into SC the. Another PrC that progresses bardic music and arcane spellcasting gets you casting like a sorcerer (with a few less spells per day) and all the bardic goodies.

You usually can't arrange feats to blast like a blaster specialist sorcerer. But it's very close to the best of both worlds.

Edit:

Can you give me some examples?
Check out virtuoso's songs.

Or sublime chord's second level song of arcane power (+4 to CL). Or bard's Doomspeak debuff, that makes a single target -10 to all saving throws, skill checks, and attack rolls for a round.

But getting Irresistable dance at 13th level is a huge advantage.

[Venger]

What are some advantages of playing a bard instead of a sorcerer? I keep focusing on the poorer spellcasting of bards, what am I missing?

yeah, in addition to what' already been said, it's important to remember an optimized bard (i.e. a sublime chord) already has everything a sorcerer has, plus more. so if you're going sublime chord, you nudge yourself up a tier and have a bunch of goodies sorcerer lacks access to.

if you're doing almost anything else, it's a t2 v a t3, sorcerer's much stronger since he gets 9ths, but you didn't need us to tell you that.

the bardic music feats are one important thing that sorcerers can't easily replicate. effects like doomspeak are worth their weight in gold.

[Twurps]

Nobody mentioned 'dragonfire inspiration' yet? It's dragon magazine, but if that's allowed it can be a serious boost to weapon damage output. (Enough to make volley archers a thing.)

[Venger]

Nobody mentioned 'dragonfire inspiration' yet? It's dragon magazine, but if that's allowed it can be a serious boost to weapon damage output. (Enough to make volley archers a thing.)

dragonfire inspiration is from dragon magic. there's no reason it wouldn't be allowed unless your DM's the kind who bans random books.

words of creation is another bard trick that's handy if you're a goody two-shoes.

[Troacctid]

Bards and Sorcerers are on pretty even footing for the most part. They have strengths in different areas and are pretty much balanced against one another. The extra skills and bardic music allow Bards to do things Sorcerers can't, and their spells aren't that far behind.

Sublime Chords, on the other hand, are just flat-out better than Sorcerers. So if you're high enough level, go Sublime Chord.


Check out virtuoso's songs.

That's probably a poor example, since Virtuoso performances mostly do the same thing as Sorcerer/Wizard spells.

[Afgncaap5]

That's probably a poor example, since Virtuoso performances mostly do the same thing as Sorcerer/Wizard spells.

A sorcerer might also be able to qualify as a Virtuoso. It'd take some skill shuffling, but not impossible. (I once had a Mystic Theurge who took a few levels in the 3.0 version of this. ...it was a weird game.)

[Karl Aegis]

Bardic Knack + Jack of All Trades gives you the equivalent of 10 ranks in all skills at level 20.

[Extra Anchovies]

Bardic Knack + Jack of All Trades gives you the equivalent of 10 ranks in all skills at level 20.

But how useful is that, really? I don't see the appeal of it over stock Bardic Knowledge.

I'm not saying Bardic Knack is bad. I legitimately don't know what makes it a good ability.

[Venger]

But how useful is that, really? I don't see the appeal of it over stock Bardic Knowledge.

I'm not saying Bardic Knack is bad. I legitimately don't know what makes it a good ability.

it's not. plus it's easily replicable via guidance of the avatar or similar.

nothing, really. it's nice for saving a few skill points and certainly more worthwhile than bardic knowledge, so it's essentially free, but nothing you'd really want to build around.

[Afgncaap5]

Bardic Knack + Jack of All Trades gives you the equivalent of 10 ranks in all skills at level 20.

That reminds me of a question I've had for a while, actually. Could someone with the Able Learner feat and Jack of All Trades treat any skill as a class skill assuming that at least one of their classes had it as a skill when they multiclassed? If that can work, then in this case a Sorcerer/Rogue combo could qualify for Virtuoso at level 7. (Which is now making me wonder if there are any interesting synergies between Virtuoso and Arcane Trickster.)

[Venger]

That reminds me of a question I've had for a while, actually. Could someone with the Able Learner feat and Jack of All Trades treat any skill as a class skill assuming that at least one of their classes had it as a skill when they multiclassed? If that can work, then in this case a Sorcerer/Rogue combo could qualify for Virtuoso at level 7. (Which is now making me wonder if there are any interesting synergies between Virtuoso and Arcane Trickster.)

No. why would he be able to? jack of all trades just lets you function as though you had 1/2 a rank in a skill, it doesn't let you treat it as a class skill.

that's how skills normally work. if something was ever a class skill, you have the higher cap, but it still costs more. able learner makes all skills cost 1 point.

[Pluto!]

Bardic Knack + Jack of All Trades gives you the equivalent of 10 ranks in all skills at level 20.
That combination and RAW don't really get along.
That said, Jack of All Trades and RAW don't really get along either.


Sorcerer defaults to straight-out stronger than Bard.

Where the Bard's casting comes ahead, paradoxically enough, is in builds where you are forced to lose some spellcasting.
This is because Sublime Chord is always one level behind Sorcerer advancement, but you can lose up to three casting levels prior to SC entry without delaying its casting.

So, while Sorcerer 20 learns spells a level or more ahead of a Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10, a Sorcerer 10/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8 learns level 6-9 spells a level behind Bard 8/Ur-Priest 2/Sublime Chord 2/Mystic Theurge 8 (assuming full-casting variants and dips in both builds to meet Ur-Priest prereqs).

[Banjoman42]

When I clicked on this thread, I half expected to see a guy with some absurd trick for bards as evidence they are better while posting a ton of random images.

In all seriousness, bard has a much higher floor than sorcerer, but the ceilings are about equal, unless you push them to beyond reason with crazy shenanigans.

[Venger]

When I clicked on this thread, I half expected to see a guy with some absurd trick for bards as evidence they are better while posting a ton of random images.

In all seriousness, bard has a much higher floor than sorcerer, but the ceilings are about equal, unless you push them to beyond reason with crazy shenanigans.

yeah, the point's kind of moot since as mentioned earlier, an optimized bard is a sorcerer (plus all bard's tricks)

on the subject, check out joker bard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?99903-Batman-s-Bane-The-Joker) for a more indepth analysis of the stuff we're talking about

[Flickerdart]

In the early levels the bard's skills, martial prowess, and (if optimized to at least some extent - the base pluses are miserable) his songs keep the bard competitive with the sorcerer. I'd say that past level 8 this no longer holds true - 4th level spells are just too good to match by simple numbers. While the bard can become a Sublime Chord, that just makes him a slightly worse sorcerer - the spells known and per day are both lacking, and IIRC he does not have access to the unique sorcerer spells. Plus, going into Sublime Chord means that many if your levels are spoken for, making it harder to dive into other powerful PrCs that help to set full casters apart from the rabble.

However, if you look at the sorcerer's character progression, you will notice that he gets exactly two class features, ever, meaning that all sorcerers are defined by their spell selection (if they PrC, they are not really sorcerers any longer, just Incantatrixes that happened to be born sexy instead of smart). A bard starts off with four distinct things that can be optimized - a passable combat chassis, his magic songs, his spells, and his skills. If you devote resources to 2-3 of these, you'll likely come out with a character that's very different from the last bard you saw, even if you go straight bard.

The best thing about bards is that they can do some of the sorcerer's fullcastery things better than him. Familiars? Obtain Familiar with better HP and BAB and skills means that your pet rat is basically twice as good. Metamagic? Metamagic Song + Talfirian Song lets you persist your best spell as early as level 3, if you're willing to sacrifice enough at the altar of a character-defining trick. These aren't the game's most powerful tricks, but that's the bard's role - he's the one who pulls out some obscure trick that lets him punch above his weight class.

[Marlowe]

Sorceror's a hammer. Bard's a multitool.

By that basis, Wizard, Cleric, and Druid are fully portable science labs, and the Monk is a chocolate switchblade.

[Extra Anchovies]

the Monk is a chocolate switchblade.

I like this comparison. Flavorful, but completely useless, and melts under any pressure.

[Venger]

IIRC he does not have access to the unique sorcerer spells.
it says "the sor/wiz list" so I don't think that includes sor specific spells

[Gale]

Bards and Sorcerers are meant to do different things. The Bard fills the role of the face. He has access to all the social skills like diplomacy, bluff, sense motive, and even perform. The class can make for a great party leader and can do a lot on its own through feats like Dragonfire Inspiration and Leadership. It also has access to practically every skill in the game, which helps fill gaps in the party lineup and Bardic Knowledge can get the party information about almost anything. The class also synergizes well with Warblade, since the feat Song of the White Raven allows you to stack Warblade levels with your Bard levels to determine your bonus to Inspire Courage (as long as you’re in a White Raven stance.) This opens up options for improving melee combat. Or you can simply go into Sublime Chord to gain access to Sorcerer and Wizard spells. Heck, you can even do both; then go into something like Jade Phoenix Mage to increase both your spell levels and maneuvers.

The Sorcerer on the other hand is a focused spellcaster. It doesn’t have much flexibility, but its ultimately far better at blasting enemies and controlling the battlefield. They gain spells faster than Bards, and can more easily enter prestige classes like Incantatrix or Mage of the Arcane Order to gain access to metamagic feats, which can when used properly, completely destroy things. They’re going to be ahead of the Bard in spellcasting until they gain access to Sublime Chord. Even then the Sorcerer will have more metamagic feats to optimize their spells, while the Bard will have next to none as it needs to use its feats on other things like Dragonfire Inspiration, Song of the Heart, Extra Music, etc.

In the end the Bard is the better support character. It can use its spells to provide buffs for its party members, and then use Inspire Courage/Dragonfire Inspiration to give massive buffs to melee. The party will also love you for your huge skill list and social skills; and let’s not even talk about Glibness. At higher levels it can simulate a sorcerer through Sublime Chord, but ultimately isn’t as a good as a real one. What makes the Bard arguably better than the Sorcerer is its flexibility, it doesn’t have to rely on spellcasting to get through everything. Still, if you want to just blast things with spells or focus on battlefield control the Sorcerer is still the better option in my opinion.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

When I clicked on this thread, I half expected to see a guy with some absurd trick for bards as evidence they are better while posting a ton of random images.

In all seriousness, bard has a much higher floor than sorcerer, but the ceilings are about equal, unless you push them to beyond reason with crazy shenanigans.

I think it's the other way 'round. Ceilings roughly equal, but the sorcerer has a higher floor.

[ComaVision]

I think it's the other way 'round. Ceilings roughly equal, but the sorcerer has a higher floor.

If two complete nitwits make characters, the sorcerer has a d4 hit dice and no armour, the bard has a d6 hit dice, more skill points, light armour, and medium BaB.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

If two complete nitwits make characters, the sorcerer has a d4 hit dice and no armour, the bard has a d6 hit dice, more skill points, light armour, and medium BaB.

True, but the sorcerer will probably accomplish more by virtue of spamming blasting spells than the bard will through plinking with a shortbow.

[ComaVision]

True, but the sorcerer will probably accomplish more by virtue of spamming blasting spells than the bard will through plinking with a shortbow.

Depends on the level. At level 1, I'd rather have a Shortbow than 3 Magic Missiles. By higher levels, I'd expect the sorcerer to have died lol

I've had inexperienced players play Wizards (not sorcerers but should hold true) and they tend to die pretty quickly.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

That's my experience with inexperienced bards!

Maybe I'll modify my statement to say that at lower levels, the shortbow bard is more likely to be useful. In any game that begins with the sorcerer having level 2+ spells, then I'll take the sorcerer.

[Rebel7284]

Assuming reasonable optimization, sorcerers are significantly more powerful at levels 1-18. Bards ARE more flexible for a handful of levels in the beginning, but eventually fall behind. Sublime Chord allows bard to catch up eventually, but they still end up trading a bunch of spells + feats for an OK musical buff and some skill points, so a toss up at 19-20. It's also questionable whether it's bard optimization if we're really optimizing Sublime Chord.

Sorcerer ticks:
- Level 1: Power Word Pain kills almost anything
- Level 4: Wings of Cover is one of the best "no" buttons in the game.
- Level 6: Kobold Rituals to get extra spellcasting, now you are WAY ahead of sublime chord.
- Level 7: Polymorph/etc.
- Level 9: Draconic Polymorph is persistable, Arcane Fusion allows for ridiculous action abuse.
- Level 10-20: Early spell access continues to give sorcerers a slight edge.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Though it's fair to question whether you're optimizing sorcerer when you start talking about kobold rituals; it's the same basic idea as Sublime Chord. Either both are ok or neither is.