When size matters - [Large Ranger Question]

[TheHermit]

Hey y'all.

Intro: We are going to start a short campaign soon (lvl 6-8) and I (somehow) convinced my DM I could play a centaur. Wonderfull, because now I am large (long). Which rocks in a mostly outdoor campaign. Now with 4 monster levels and a lvl adjustment of 2 I ended up with 26 strength. We are experienced players so being OP will be challenged accordingly. This does allow me to buy and use a +8 composite greatbow of distance and this raises a question: I'm like a ballista by now. I can fire at 260 ft. without negatives.

Question: What is the size of a large arrow. More specifically: What is the size of a large arrow fired from a +8 composite bow.

[Urpriest]

You're not Large[long]. [long] doesn't exist in 3.5, it was a 3.0 thing. You're just Large.

Projectiles don't usually have size categories of their own, they're classified by the size of the wielder, so the arrow is just Large. If you really need its size as an object, I guess it's one size category bigger than a Medium arrow? Maybe Tiny, or Small?

[Uncle Pine]

You're not Large[long]. [long] doesn't exist in 3.5, it was a 3.0 thing. You're just Large.

He's probably referring to the table found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm) (Table: Creature Size and Scale) or in MM's back, that lists among other things reach for long and tall creatures that are Large or larger. As centaurs have a Space/Reach entry of 10 ft./5 ft., they are long.

@OP: In 3.5, regardless of its base reach, a Large creature uses Large weapons. A Large composite bow fires Large arrows, so your centaur Ranger uses Large arrows. 20 Large arrows weigh 6 lb. and cost 2 gp.

[Venger]

He's probably referring to the table found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm) (Table: Creature Size and Scale) or in MM's back, that lists among other things reach for long and tall creatures that are Large or larger. As centaurs have a Space/Reach entry of 10 ft./5 ft., they are long.

No, they are not.

(long) does not exist in 3.5. creatures are just medium/large/huge, etc. it was, as ur-priest said, changed in the 3.5 update.

don't argue with ur-priest about monsters

OP, do you want to know the size category you're using for your weapon, or just roughly how big your arrows are? I'm not sure what you're asking.

[torrasque666]

No, they are not.

(long) does not exist in 3.5. creatures are just medium/large/huge, etc. it was, as ur-priest said, changed in the 3.5 update.
Then explain why my copy of the MM1, printed in 2012, has on table 7-1, page 314, a column for "Reach (tall)" and "Reach (long)"

[Venger]

Then explain why my copy of the MM1, printed in 2012, has on table 7-1, page 314, a column for "Reach (tall)" and "Reach (long)"

Explain why mine doesn't.

I would guess maybe you have a different printing? Mine's from the united states, I know portugese/german/etc sometimes have differences.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Explain why mine doesn't.

I would guess maybe you have a different printing? Mine's from the united states, I know portugese/german/etc sometimes have differences.

His is one of the reprints (mine was printed in 2003, for example). They probably added the table back in then.

[torrasque666]

Explain why mine doesn't.

I would guess maybe you have a different printing? Mine's from the united states, I know portugese/german/etc sometimes have differences.
Printed in the USA. Does your Centaur also have a 10ft reach?

[Venger]

Printed in the USA. Does your Centaur also have a 10ft reach?

nope. 5 feet, same as the SRD.

anyway, are you arguing that long/tall is still part of the rules, or not? I'm not clear.

[Uncle Pine]

It's in the SRD as well. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm) Same link as above, under "Big and Little Creatures In Combat". I'd link the exact paragraph but I don't know how to do it.

EDIT: Centaurs have reach 5 ft., not 10 ft.

[The Viscount]

Centaurs, like lions, retain their 5 foot reach.

However, they are not long creatures, because they take up a space of a 10 foot square, not 5 feet by 10 feet. They are thus not long.

As Ur-Priest said, the Long and Tall descriptions no longer exist. That being said, Large creatures have differing reaches depending on rough estimations of how they would strike out.

The chart on the srd is attempting to explain why some creatures have different reaches, but this is the only place creatures can be described as long or tall.

[Uncle Pine]

Centaurs, like lions, retain their 5 foot reach.

However, they are not long creatures, because they take up a space of a 10 foot square, not 5 feet by 10 feet. They are thus not long.

As Ur-Priest said, the Long and Tall descriptions no longer exist. That being said, Large creatures have differing reaches depending on rough estimations of how they would strike out.

What I was trying to say is that every Large creature in 3.5 occupies the same space (10 ft. square), but they have a reach of 5 or 10 ft. depending on their anatomy and that this was the reason why the OP referred to centaurs as "long" (see the table in the SRD).

[Venger]

It's in the SRD as well. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm) Same link as above, under "Big and Little Creatures In Combat". I'd link the exact paragraph but I don't know how to do it.

EDIT: Centaurs have reach 5 ft., not 10 ft.

that's weird.

oh, that's simple. all you do is add a # to the end of the url, then type in the header of what you want to link to with the first word lowercase and subsequent ones capitalized. so for that one, it would be like this: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat

right, they do.

[Uncle Pine]

oh, that's simple. all you do is add a # to the end of the url, then type in the header of what you want to link to with the first word lowercase and subsequent ones capitalized. so for that one, it would be like this: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat

That's great! Thanks for the tip. :)

[Venger]

That's great! Thanks for the tip. :)

happy to help. it's a real time-saver, especially when linking to an unbearably long page like "actions in combat" or "special qualities"

[Urpriest]

To clarify, long and tall are descriptive categories, meant to broadly classify reach. I was mostly objecting to the description "Large (long)" in this context, which made it sound like a rules thing rather than a useful heuristic.

[Curmudgeon]

oh, that's simple. all you do is add a # to the end of the url, then type in the header of what you want to link to with the first word lowercase and subsequent ones capitalized. so for that one, it would be like this: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat
Not quite so simple, as your example shows: you've got "bigandLittle..." instead of "bigAndLittle...". The formula is mostly camelCase (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CamelCase), but not quite. If you really need a mid-text link, you'll have to look at the web page code and then hunt around nearby for id="theLinkNameYouNeed" where of course theLinkNameYouNeed is replaced by the actual name of that hyperlink. If the web page author didn't include a nearby id tag then you're out of luck.

[Venger]

Not quite so simple, as your example shows: you've got "bigandLittle..." instead of "bigAndLittle...". The formula is mostly camelCase (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CamelCase), but not quite. If you really need a mid-text link, you'll have to look at the web page code and then hunt around nearby for id="theLinkNameYouNeed" where of course theLinkNameYouNeed is replaced by the actual name of that hyperlink. If the web page author didn't include a nearby id tag then you're out of luck.

yyyyyeah.

D&D: where even websites about the game can't have one simple rule without a bunch of exceptions.

you're right, as always, I just thought it'd be a little easier to explain it how I did. I think it mostly holds true except for words like articles and such that you wouldn't normally capitalize in a title. if nothing else, trial and error. headers are usually only one or two words, so this doesn't come up especially often, or failing that, they're sometimes hyperlinked.

[Curmudgeon]

I think it mostly holds true except for words like articles and such that you wouldn't normally capitalize in a title.
That's actually mostly not the case. Mark of Justice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/markOfJustice.htm) and Trap the Soul (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trapTheSoul.htm) spells use lowercase "of" and "the" in the visible text, but capitalized "Of" and "The" in the hyperlinks. "Height And Weight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#heightAndWeight)" instead capitalizes "And" in both text and link.

I guess you could bug Jans with an e-mail, but I personally wouldn't bother. He's done us a tremendous service by turning those WotC RTF files into the most accessible rules source for D&D. Maintaining consistency in link conventions is a very minor quibble.

[Venger]

That's actually mostly not the case. Mark of Justice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/markOfJustice.htm) and Trap the Soul (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trapTheSoul.htm) spells use lowercase "of" and "the" in the visible text, but capitalized "Of" and "The" in the hyperlinks. "Height And Weight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#heightAndWeight)" instead capitalizes "And" in both text and link.

I guess you could bug Jans with an e-mail, but I personally wouldn't bother. He's done us a tremendous service by turning those WotC RTF files into the most accessible rules source for D&D. Maintaining consistency in link conventions is a very minor quibble.

why so it is. nothing's ever easy.

nah, I'd never do that. like I said, it's not hard to just mess around via trial and error to give out a working link.

[TheHermit]

Okay, so that went out of hand rather quickly. Thank you for the minimalist rant on the inpropper use of camelcase by DnD websites.

Im actually still instructed by my DM that im 5 by 10 with 5 ft reach.

My question stil stands, how big is a Large arrow? I know Large is a size categorie but its not really an SI-unit. Is it one meter long, two? I'm not actually common with bow and arrow so i'm looking for some kind of nummer here. What site am i looking at for the head? 10cm, maybe five

[Venger]

Okay, so that went out of hand rather quickly. Thank you for the minimalist rant on the inpropper use of camelcase by DnD websites.

Im actually still instructed by my DM that im 5 by 10 with 5 ft reach.

My question stil stands, how big is a Large arrow? I know Large is a size categorie but its not really an SI-unit. Is it one meter long, two? I'm not actually common with bow and arrow so i'm looking for some kind of nummer here. What site am i looking at for the head? 10cm, maybe five

Yes. no one disputed that, centaurs take up a 10ft block, but have a reach of 5 feet.

okay, so that's what you were asking. a large arrow would be between 18 and 24 inches, so either tiny or small in size categories.

[Uncle Pine]

I seem to remember that +1 category equals double length, width and heigth (I'm not thinking about Enlarge Person, it's probably from Savage Species). I'll check later when I get home.

[Curmudgeon]

I seem to remember that +1 category equals double length, width and heigth (I'm not thinking about Enlarge Person, it's probably from Savage Species). I'll check later when I get home.
Your memory is a bit off, and you can check right now using the link Venger helpfully supplied: Big and Little Creatures In Combat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat).

[Urpriest]

My question stil stands, how big is a Large arrow? I know Large is a size categorie but its not really an SI-unit. Is it one meter long, two? I'm not actually common with bow and arrow so i'm looking for some kind of nummer here. What site am i looking at for the head? 10cm, maybe five

What's the context? If it's just about how you're imagining it in your head, you're not going to be consistent enough about it for it to make a difference unless you've got an unusually vivid imagination. Are you trying to rig something up?

[nedz]

The chart on the srd is attempting to explain why some creatures have different reaches, but this is the only place creatures can be described as long or tall.

DMG p308-309 too. It's just not called out explicitly in 3.5 like it was in 3.0

[bekeleven]

What's the context? If it's just about how you're imagining it in your head, you're not going to be consistent enough about it for it to make a difference unless you've got an unusually vivid imagination. Are you trying to rig something up?

This is one of those situations I encounter a lot on tech forums, where someone pops in asking how to do something like, say, get a voltage from a rail that doesn't support it, or splicing a SATA cable, or male-to-male extension cords. Then everyone goes "We can tell you how, but you're using this to solve a deeper problem that should be solved way differently, and something just went terribly wrong."Apparently power is on my mind.

So yeah: why does it matter how big your arrows are? The answer is either:


2-4 feet, since light weapons (like daggers) are 2 size categories smaller than the wielder, and an arrow is an improvised dagger (meaning similar form factor), and small items are 2-4 feet long.
Arguably smaller, since you could make a RAW argument that all arrows are identical and thus yours, like everyone's, are tiny.

(side note: If it's because you're using an extradimensional belt, I've had this issue before myself)

[Venger]

This is one of those situations I encounter a lot on tech forums, where someone pops in asking how to do something like, say, get a voltage from a rail that doesn't support it, or splicing a SATA cable, or male-to-male extension cords. Then everyone goes "We can tell you how, but you're using this to solve a deeper problem that should be solved way differently, and something just went terribly wrong."[COLOR="#FFFFFF"]Apparently power is on my mind.

this is a really good analogy for questions like this. like "okay, we could answer about the arrows, but what do you really want to ask us?