(DnD 3.5) Suggestions for building a Survival Horror world

[maniakmastah]

Hey everyone, i've been both DM'ng and playing DnD 3.5 with some friends now for awhile and we've mostly stuck to the fantasy elements with little twists here and there, but for my next game, i want to do something a little different: a DnD 3.5 game emphasizing survival in a brutal and toxic wasteland via post apocalypse. There are no quests for glory or princess to rescue, there is only one quest: survive. I've played enough Fallout, Wasteland and other such after the end games to have a general idea of what to do, but i thought i'd make a thread here and get some feedback and tips from more experienced world builders. Here's a rundown of what i'm going for:

1) The name of the setting is called "Dust", named aptly for the toxic dust cloud that covers the region the setting will focus primarily on as much for the impending sense of decay and death i'm hoping to invoke. In game setting, nuclear war, natural disasters, man made disasters and the complete collapse of humanity, combined with the creation of magic, has turned the world of Dust into a hellish, toxic and dead world where only the strongest, most resourceful or the most ruthless can hope to survive, whether it be against the brutal environment, mutation and infection, as well as against each other. As for Magic, no one knows how or why it came back, and it'll be left vague as to why it exists.

2) It has both modern/ light futuristic setting (guns, bombs, some robots, but no mechs or AIs or cybernetics) and medieval elements (the disaster that rocked the world in Dust set progress back to around the Dark Ages progress wise, with people huddling together in bands for survival).

3) While i don't mind players making a little bit of humor in game (i find a little humor helps emphasize the horror), for in game purposes, i wanna avoid any funny stuff. Dust is a harsh, unforgiving world where humor doesn't survive long.

4) I wanna retheme monsters and creatures as people and creatures who have been heavily mutated by both the radiation and dust cloud, or infected with enhanced versions of current sicknesses or new ones that turn people into monsters.

5) Dust is most definitely a mature game, where disturbing elements, horrific violence, sadism and a sense that you have to be cruel to survive is the norm, so don't be after to get too dark with your ideas.

These are what i can think of at the moment, any ideas or suggestions will be gladly taken into consideration. Thank you everyone.

[whisperwind1]

1) The name of the setting is called "Dust", named aptly for the toxic dust cloud that covers the region the setting will focus primarily on as much for the impending sense of decay and death i'm hoping to invoke. In game setting, nuclear war, natural disasters, man made disasters and the complete collapse of humanity, combined with the creation of magic, has turned the world of Dust into a hellish, toxic and dead world where only the strongest, most resourceful or the most ruthless can hope to survive, whether it be against the brutal environment, mutation and infection, as well as against each other. As for Magic, no one knows how or why it came back, and it'll be left vague as to why it exists.

2) It has both modern/ light futuristic setting (guns, bombs, some robots, but no mechs or AIs or cybernetics) and medieval elements (the disaster that rocked the world in Dust set progress back to around the Dark Ages progress wise, with people huddling together in bands for survival).

This is just my personal genre prejudice talking here, but you might want to come up with a singular cause for the apocalypse. Even in Mad Max, where the specifics are vague, its generally accepted that the exhausting of Oil is what started the end of civilization. A single cause would allow you to craft a more unified feel to the world, as well as a cohesive tone. For instance, a zombie apocalypse is tonally and thematically different from a Robot apocalypse or a natural disaster apocalypse.

In your case, i'd say the Mad Max style, integral resource to modern life gets used up, is the way to go. This leads to exactly the kind of amoral, brutally pragmatic conflict you seem to want. If, say, electricity suddenly shuts down (perhaps as a result of magic re-entering the world?), then its a natural leap to people fighting over functional hydro-electric facilities or alternative means of power (Wind turbine wars, Imagine it). It can even lead to people developing neo-tribal worship of the resource, as they forget how to create it and rely on the wisdom of the ancients. That results in oppressive, theocratic fiefdoms where the despot in charge is a scientist or engineer who sets themselves up as a demigod who controls "the life lightning".

Just a suggestion, take it for what its worth.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

I must say, D&D 3.5 really doesn't seem the right system for this kind of game. In particular, the extreme utility of magic - divine magic in particular - makes it possible for a sufficiently magicked-up group (like say, more or less any party) to ignore mundane logistical and survival concerns. Spells like create water, purify food and drink or endure elements basically take the survival out of survival horror. And that's just a first level adept. And once you get someone capable of casting make whole (that's a third level cleric), your post-apocalyptic wasteland is going to look a whole lot less post-apocalyptic. And spells are really just the tip of the iceberg - a lot of other things really don't work for survival horror - WBL, the skill system, the power curve... 3.5 (any D&D, really, but especially 3.5) just isn't a good fit for this sort of thing. Sure, it could be done, but I'd really advise taking a look at some other systems (if you want D20, I'd recommend looking at D20 Modern - in fact, I think that actually has a post-apocalyptic splatbook).

Furthermore, the things you're citing as inspiration really don't seem to match the tone you're going for. Firstly, both Fallout and Wasteland can be pretty light-hearted, even comedic (or did you miss the toasters, the Monty Python jokes, and the talking jukebox?). Sure, they might be mostly serious, but they seem way too goofy for this kind of thing. More importantly, they really, really aren't `the only goal is to survive` settings. They're just as much about "save-the-princess, quest-for-glory" as your average d&d game, barring the relative dearth of literal princesses. Sure, they have a few more opportunities for really creative dickery than some settings (ah, New Reno, the fun we had...), but most of the time (and canonically), you're still very much playing the hero. And when you're being the bad guy, it's more the "moustache-twirling" type than the "I have to do this to keep breathing" type. So if you want inspiration for the kind of grimdark post-apoc you seem to be going for, look somewhere else.

[VoxRationis]

More helpfully—I understand well that switching systems entirely might be unappealing for one reason or another—it would do well to edit or remove those elements which TheTeaMustFlow noted that could ameliorate logistical concerns.
I myself would remove casters entirely, and have the only magic be leftover magical items (particularly scrolls, but also wands and weapons) from the past age, scavenged from among its remaining ruins. One might make Use Magical Device a class skill for more classes, if broader equality in the use of such items is a desirable thing in one's eyes.

[maniakmastah]

This is just my personal genre prejudice talking here, but you might want to come up with a singular cause for the apocalypse. Even in Mad Max, where the specifics are vague, its generally accepted that the exhausting of Oil is what started the end of civilization. A single cause would allow you to craft a more unified feel to the world, as well as a cohesive tone. For instance, a zombie apocalypse is tonally and thematically different from a Robot apocalypse or a natural disaster apocalypse.

In your case, i'd say the Mad Max style, integral resource to modern life gets used up, is the way to go. This leads to exactly the kind of amoral, brutally pragmatic conflict you seem to want. If, say, electricity suddenly shuts down (perhaps as a result of magic re-entering the world?), then its a natural leap to people fighting over functional hydro-electric facilities or alternative means of power (Wind turbine wars, Imagine it). It can even lead to people developing neo-tribal worship of the resource, as they forget how to create it and rely on the wisdom of the ancients. That results in oppressive, theocratic fiefdoms where the despot in charge is a scientist or engineer who sets themselves up as a demigod who controls "the life lightning".

Just a suggestion, take it for what its worth.

I've been mulling about what events lead up to the apocalypse in my game and looking at your suggestion, I agree that the world descending into total war all over keeping what little resources various superpowers have left and preying on each other like animals with all manners of nuclear/ biological/ and chemical weapons in addition to the usual methods of war, with electricity being the biggest resource needing to be gained. This also would give a logical excuse for the poisonous cloud that covers the landscape (when the world is fighting tooth and nail for resources, especially electricity, you don't worry about safe and sane ways of gathering them). Noted and reserved for building upon. Thank you for the input friend, much appreciated.

[maniakmastah]

I must say, D&D 3.5 really doesn't seem the right system for this kind of game. In particular, the extreme utility of magic - divine magic in particular - makes it possible for a sufficiently magicked-up group (like say, more or less any party) to ignore mundane logistical and survival concerns. Spells like create water, purify food and drink or endure elements basically take the survival out of survival horror. And that's just a first level adept. And once you get someone capable of casting make whole (that's a third level cleric), your post-apocalyptic wasteland is going to look a whole lot less post-apocalyptic. And spells are really just the tip of the iceberg - a lot of other things really don't work for survival horror - WBL, the skill system, the power curve... 3.5 (any D&D, really, but especially 3.5) just isn't a good fit for this sort of thing. Sure, it could be done, but I'd really advise taking a look at some other systems (if you want D20, I'd recommend looking at D20 Modern - in fact, I think that actually has a post-apocalyptic splatbook).

Furthermore, the things you're citing as inspiration really don't seem to match the tone you're going for. Firstly, both Fallout and Wasteland can be pretty light-hearted, even comedic (or did you miss the toasters, the Monty Python jokes, and the talking jukebox?). Sure, they might be mostly serious, but they seem way too goofy for this kind of thing. More importantly, they really, really aren't `the only goal is to survive` settings. They're just as much about "save-the-princess, quest-for-glory" as your average d&d game, barring the relative dearth of literal princesses. Sure, they have a few more opportunities for really creative dickery than some settings (ah, New Reno, the fun we had...), but most of the time (and canonically), you're still very much playing the hero. And when you're being the bad guy, it's more the "moustache-twirling" type than the "I have to do this to keep breathing" type. So if you want inspiration for the kind of grimdark post-apoc you seem to be going for, look somewhere else.

I would agree in that D20 Modern would be better suited, but at the time, my players were more accustomed to DnD 3.5 and I didn't want to put them through something different, even if it meant doing alot of extra work, but after getting some feedback from them, they are willing to give D20 a shot, and i do know the splatbook you mentioned, D20 Apocalypse. So i'll be using D20 Modern and Apocalypse, along with the Gamma World sourcebook to get some of the basics going (though any other books that could give good ideas are always welcome). I also let them know that certain spells (like Make Whole, Create Food and Water, and other convenient utility spells) wouldn't function in this game, likewise maneuvers like Iron Heart Surge won't exist, for the same reason that they all defeat the purpose of a survival campaign, but taking some suggestions from here, i'm doing away with casters, which makes D20 more practical since magic isn't as much of an issue in it than in DnD 3.5.

Ah, i should have been a bit more clear in my using Fallout for reference (also got the references and jokes as well, even if they didn't fit. I blame Bethesda for those). When i think of applying things from Fallout to my survival game, i looked at places like the Pitt, the Vaults where all the social experiments occurred, The Divide, The Glow, and other places where you just got that feel of something always ready to kill you. Other than those places and a few others i can't think of at the moment, i agree that the rest of Fallout wouldn't fit, which is why i'm also looking at alot of Warhammer 40K and games like RAGE, Metro 2033 and Metro Last Light, and even some Shadowrun sourcebooks to get an idea of how a dystopia would work for more "civilized" areas in this game. Any other suggestions would be appreciated, always looking to expand things a bit. Thank you for the feedback.

[maniakmastah]

More helpfully—I understand well that switching systems entirely might be unappealing for one reason or another—it would do well to edit or remove those elements which TheTeaMustFlow noted that could ameliorate logistical concerns.
I myself would remove casters entirely, and have the only magic be leftover magical items (particularly scrolls, but also wands and weapons) from the past age, scavenged from among its remaining ruins. One might make Use Magical Device a class skill for more classes, if broader equality in the use of such items is a desirable thing in one's eyes.

Good idea, and wouldn't be too much of a shocker for my players since they stick mostly to combat, skilled based or flavor characters and don't use casters much. Looking into D20 Modern, but definitely considering making items the only source of magic usable and making UMD universal to at least give my players some options so they don't feel denied anything. Thank you for the feedback.

[Elvenoutrider]

I'll try to answer a bit now then follow up tomorrow. If you want gritty and dangerous the easiest thing to do would be to pick a new system. Gurps is by far one of the best systems I've seen run this sort of thing due to all the different resources. Now assuming that isn't an option...

First thing you need to do is go through the book and eliminate a lot of spells that make survival easier. Eliminate create food and water, rope trick, extra dimensional shelters, fly, teleport, remove disease and poison to name a few.

Next you need to decide what tech level your ocs have access to. I'll warn you now vehicles in 3.5, modern and parhfinder are boring to run. Car chases are just tedious. The rules do not work on the same scale. Star Wars rpg does this a bit better. I reccomend just taking them out unless someone can point to more fun homebrew

Firearms do not work in a satisfying way with the AC rules, and d20 moderns idea of just use the bust fire feat for an extra 2d6 damage doesn't improve it. For forearms you need a better variant of called shots allowing the party to get head shots or called shots to the hand or feet. Your players will get bitten by something horrible and say well why can't I just empty the clip into its head. They will also complain how silly it is that ranged attacks provoke aoos in a setting with automated weapons. I enjoy the way gurps does this. You say how many bullets you are firing. The number of bullets you fire gives you a bonus to your to hit roll and the more you beat the AC the more bullets hit. I used this in a patjfinder game and it worked.

ive been working on trying this sort of thing for a bit and I'll try and respond with more tomorrow...

Hugs and kisses