[3.5] Help with my Sneaky Gish, please!

[aleucard]

I'm currently trying to properly nail down my character's build. For proprietary info, we started at level 1 with 36 point buy, with my picks being Changeling Spellthief with 8 Strength, 14 Dexterity, 16 Constitution, 12 Intelligence, 8 Wisdom, and 18 Charisma. As of this moment, my tentative build is Spellthief 1/Sorcerer 5 (Domain Access)/Recaster 5/Unseen Seer 9. I'm currently thinking that Unseen Seer at least could be swapped out with other things, for instance Spellwarp Sniper. What's sticking me, however, aside from actually finding decent things to fit in there are finding things to make my Sneak Attacking both longer range and more reliable to pull off. For bonus points, I can't decide if I should ditch the crossbow focus or not once I get to where I can sneak attack with spells, or if I should focus on sneak attacking with the crossbow. This is exacerbated by how I can't seem to find a non-spell way of extending sneak attack past 30' aside from either Crossbow Sniper or Spellwarp Sniper respectively. I also can't seem to find a good way of guaranteeing sneak attack damage in either case aside from making myself invisible or blinding the target. Any suggestions would be appreciated!

Also, in case you're curious, other things I'm looking at are Stalwart Sorcerer, Divine Companion, and Metamagic Specialist (though this might be ditched for Rapid Metamagic, but then again I hate the familiar and want to trade it for SOMETHING).

EDIT: Feat and spell suggestions are also welcome, especially for the Recaster spells!

EDIT 2: I've also been directed towards the Spell Shield ACF in Dungeonscape. If I do end up taking this (which would lock out Divine Companion and MM Specialist, but meh), I'll likely focus on doing Sneak Attacks with my Crossbow since my spell slots suddenly have even more use than previous in the realm of keeping me alive, but yeah. Either way, I REALLY want to trade out my familiar for something else. Can you either convince me to keep the thing or trade it for a different ACF, and if the former how is it better than the Obtain Familiar feat and the ACF?

[HurinTheCursed]

Glitterdust and invisibility are already almost quoted, otherwise I had success forcing balance tests (grease) and summoning allies to flank before I could cast greater invisibility. Grapplers and tentacles (if you keep some distance) can help with that too. For a gish, melee is an option, a spear can help you stay safe.

This guide may help you http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240 and I think one of dictum mortuum's handbook was plenty of tricks for this kind of characters.

[aleucard]

Glitterdust and invisibility are already almost quoted, otherwise I had success forcing balance tests (grease) and summoning allies to flank before I could cast greater invisibility. Grapplers and tentacles (if you keep some distance) can help with that too. For a gish, melee is an option, a spear can help you stay safe.

This guide may help you http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240 and I think one of dictum mortuum's handbook was plenty of tricks for this kind of characters.

I already have that guide open, but thanks anyway. I'm thinking that Invisible Spell or maybe even Deceptive Spell will help with casting from stealth, too. Former is no-LA, so it doesn't hurt any save for the problems that come with spontaneous metamagic (which I'm gonna get the feat to deal with probably). I'm wanting to stay out of melee, though, but I will definitely be looking into things to help me live there too.

Any class or feat based suggestions?

EDIT: Any classes that progress Arcane casting and some form of stealth would be useful. Admittedly, SA progression would be nice too, but I'm starting to think I might be better off just leaving SA to my crossbow unless if I get lucky. I can put weapon crystals on that, after all.

[HurinTheCursed]

By gish, I believed you meant you also wanted to do some martial combat. If you don't, flanking won't help then, conjured grapplers still will.

I'm afraid I cannot give advice you haven't read elsewhere. My only sneaky mage was close to core, I managed to get her into unseen seer only because she had a strong background in divination even before I rolled her stats (and that the character was at first a fraud, a crook !).

Otherwise, if you're going to be the arcanist and the group's skill monkey, more sneak attack isn't bad. Crossbow won't be good for long and it's easy to land SA if you enjoy using rays in combat. Spellswarp sniper should be nice if so.
At low level, every little boost counts so a few added d6 doesn't look that bad. Personnaly, I found funny to try to trigger sneak attacks, the meleers were certainly fine having more flat-footed or flanked opponents and the ranger enjoyed to go in infiltration with her.

Silent spell is pretty useful. Ray metamagic as well. There are some useful skill tricks for this kind of character I believe.

[Extra Anchovies]

My favorite build for sneaky-casty dude is Rogue 1/[Wizard or Beguiler] 4/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 5. With enough hit points and/or miss chances, you can contribute in a fight through sneak attack (you end up with +7d6, which is respectable) and save your spells for noncombat utility.

[DEMON]

My favorite build for sneaky-casty dude is Rogue 1/[Wizard or Beguiler] 4/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 5. With enough hit points and/or miss chances, you can contribute in a fight through sneak attack (you end up with +7d6, which is respectable) and save your spells for noncombat utility.

On a Wizard (i.e. non-Beguiler) chassi, I would suggest Spellthief 1 over Rogue 1.

Master Spellthief is cool for you and you can specialize your Wizard and still get partial access to the banned school (e.g. Enachantment) via Spellthief.

You give up 8-16 skill points and +2 Ref for the privilege.

[Taveena]

Trickster Spellthief would remove your sneak attack progression past level one, but would boost your Spellthief casting to go up to 6ths and add Bard spells to the stuff you can learn - aaaas you're multiclassing out, it might be a good idea?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies
My favorite build for sneaky-casty dude is Rogue 1/[Wizard or Beguiler] 4/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 5.

What feats do you normally use with this build?

And could this be used with a Pathfinder rogue?

.

[DEMON]

What feats do you normally use with this build?

And could this be used with a Pathfinder rogue?

.

Isn't PF Rogue 1 is exactly the same as 3.5 Rogue 1? If that is the case, I don't see why it couldn't.

For feats, Practiced Spellcaster is a must have and I highly recommend Craven (CoR).

[Extra Anchovies]

Trickster Spellthief would remove your sneak attack progression past level one, but would boost your Spellthief casting to go up to 6ths and add Bard spells to the stuff you can learn - aaaas you're multiclassing out, it might be a good idea?

My suggested build never has any dual-progression classes, so it wouldn't necessarily be any better than Rogue. Unless it would let me add Bard spells to my spellbook and cast them from Wizard slots, in which case it would probably be a good choice. Getting Irresistible Dance four levels early would be awesome, plus there are a number of other spells that Bards get a bit earlier (e.g. Greater Dispel Magic).


Isn't PF Rogue 1 is exactly the same as 3.5 Rogue 1? If that is the case, I don't see why it couldn't.

For feats, Practiced Spellcaster is a must have and I highly recommend Craven (CoR).

Practiced Spellcaster is actually kind of a waste. You have 19/20 casting already :smalltongue:

Craven is good to keep your damage up. Darkstalker is necessary to hide from things with scent, blindsight, blindsense, tremorsense, etc. Invisible Spell is nice, as is Silent Spell.

[DEMON]

Practiced Spellcaster is actually kind of a waste. You have 19/20 casting already :smalltongue:

Nu-uh. It also helps to offset the Unseen Seer's penalties :smallamused:

Unless there was another thing that already negated those that I missed, in which case you're right. It's not necessary.

[Extra Anchovies]

Nu-uh. It also helps to offset the Unseen Seer's penalties :smallamused:

Unless there was another thing that already negated those that I missed, in which case you're right. It's not necessary.

Huh. Hadn't noticed that bit before, since I've never actually played one. Yeah, Practiced Spellcaster is good since you get its full benefit.

[ace rooster]

Sniper's shot from spell compendium is what you are looking for. Level 1 swift action sorcerer spell that removes the range limit on sneak attack for one round. As a sorcerer you should be able to throw them around like candy and your swift action is less useful anyway. Even without cheese this is a great candidate for persisting, and on this sort of build might make persistant spell worth taking on it's own. Rule one to staying alive against the big scary monsters is not to be within charge range, so this can actually free up some spells that would otherwise be required for defense.

Once you have real range, getting sneak attacks safely becomes much easier. Tiny hut is a funny one, though makes your actual location fairly obvious, and fixed. Invisibilty and illusions are far more reliable if you can get outside true seeing range, and mundane darkness is very effective if you can get outside darkvision range. Devils will still be able to see you, but that is about it. Dancing lights suddenly becomes a great spell to have. At 300ft normal sniping is quite easy, though it does limit you to one attack per round.

Rays are not the way forward, because they tend to have tiny range. For reference, a standard duel involves starting beside each other, walking 10 paces, and turning to face each other. This puts you 65 feet away from each other, and means that you need to be level 16 to use a ray. Melfs acid arrow on the other hand...

[aleucard]

Alright. My current build, barring any unforseen changes, is Spellthief 1/Sorcerer 5/Recaster 1/Uncanny Trickster 3 (progressing Recaster)/Recaster 2/Daggerspell Mage 10.

I'm not taking any of the Spellthief ACF's, partially due to seeing no need for them and mainly due to wanting to minimize the clutter. As for the ACF's I AM taking, the list is as follows; Stalwart Sorcerer (probably bow, so I still have a ranged option and I can drop Rapid Reload for something more useful), Domain Access (the entire reason I'm taking 5 levels of Sorcerer, probably going with War and getting Holy Warrior unless if I find a better idea), and either Divine Companion (pocket medic and emergency shielding are nice), Metamagic Specialist (metamagic sans casting delay is nice, though I'm likely to want the feat instead because my int mod is 1), or Spell Shield (we start at 1, and I'm likely to be face-first in the suck as a sneak gish).

For feats, I'm looking at Persist (for obvious reasons), Master Spellthief (ditto), Empower Spell (for working with Recaster), Maximize Spell (ditto), Darkstalker (for actually doing sneakiness well), Practiced Spellcaster (for obvious reasons), Invisible Spell (to cast without breaking stealth too badly), Acidic Splatter/Invisible Needle (for an infinite-use touch attack to SA with), Twin Spell (for when I REALLY need a spell to stick), Arcane Strike (to up my living blender chops), and a version of Craven with the fear aspect removed (for obvious reasons). Ones that are locked in already are Able Learner and Two-Weapon Fighting.

For spells, I'm definitely looking at things like Sniper's Shot, especially to persist, but I think the biggest issue for me right now is finding appropriate spells for the 2 free spells Recaster gives. Right now, the only one that rings out 'Ding ding ding we have a winner!' is Hunter's Eye from PHB2 for Rangers that gives +1d6 SA/3 caster levels.

[ace rooster]

For spells, I'm definitely looking at things like Sniper's Shot, especially to persist, but I think the biggest issue for me right now is finding appropriate spells for the 2 free spells Recaster gives. Right now, the only one that rings out 'Ding ding ding we have a winner!' is Hunter's Eye from PHB2 for Rangers that gives +1d6 SA/3 caster levels.

I completely missed that it didn't have to be a sorcerer spell. Near horizon from complete mage negates all range penalties for 3 rounds. 2000ft sneak attacks without penalty? yes please. Assassin's darkness from complete scoundrel deserves mention too, but hunter's eye is nice.