3.5 Vampire Coffin in the bag of holding, and other questions.

[SecretlyaFish]

Hello, I was wondering about if sticking a coffin inside a bag of holding works, and what would the limitations and mechanics be. I am going to be playing a vampire PC in a upcoming campaign, and one of the things I never really thought about was, basically needing to be within 9 miles of your coffin at all times, otherwise you risk permanent death. So I figured a coffin in a bag of holding would work, but the DM isn't too sold on this, and I personally don't know all the mechanics that go into something like that.

So a few questions, lets say I have a trusted ally carrying the bag of holding in say, a tavern somewhere. My vampire PC is destroyed by a turn attempt or something, throwing me into gaseous form, do they have to actually open the bag of holding for me? Or does my gaseous form allow me to slide right into the bag even tho it might be "closed". So in combat if I were to fall and my ally were right beside me, could I just go right into the bag, or would the ally need to stop what he's doing and on his turn, open the bag, or like I said can i just go right in.

Assuming I am inside the bag of holding, and heal etc, can I gaseous form out of the bag of holding, or am I stuck until my ally opens the bag?

Next is, how do you specifically kill vampires? My understand is this, some people say in the 3rd edition, disintegrate kills vampires, but since its an undead and they are immune to death effects, I think it still forces the vampire into gaseous form. An example of a spell that WOULD kill a vampire without allowing it to escape via gaseous form, is Sunburst, where it specifically says vampires are destroyed utterly if they fail the reflex save.

It specifies in the MM what kills vampires. I assume any other spell unless it specifically says it kills vampires outright, instead reduce it to gaseous form. Is this correct? I think people get the "reduced to zero hit points" thing too literally, and assume an effect that would cause death or disintegration without hp damage kills a vampire outright, sunburst specifies specifically, if the other spells don't, I think we can assume the vampire just goes to gaseous.

[Extra Anchovies]

So a few questions, lets say I have a trusted ally carrying the bag of holding in say, a tavern somewhere. My vampire PC is destroyed by a turn attempt or something,

I'm going to stop you right here, first. The vampire's fast healing ability reads "If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, it automatically assumes gaseous form and attempts to escape." It's not if you'd be destroyed in combat, it's if you're reduced to 0 hit points. The "destroy undead" ability of Turn Undead destroys undead without changing their hit point total, so if you somehow ran into a cleric of high enough level to outright destroy you with a Turn Undead attempt (which actually might not be hard thanks to the Sun Domain's greater turning), they'd be able to get rid of you completely with just the turning/greater turning.

Anyways.


throwing me into gaseous form, do they have to actually open the bag of holding for me? Or does my gaseous form allow me to slide right into the bag even tho it might be "closed". So in combat if I were to fall and my ally were right beside me, could I just go right into the bag, or would the ally need to stop what he's doing and on his turn, open the bag, or like I said can i just go right in.

An important thing to keep in mind when using a Bag of Holding is that they aren't just bags that are larger on the inside than on the outside; they're containers for extradimensional spaces. Passing through the entrance to the bag doesn't put you inside the bag. It transports you to the extradimensional space. So you'd have to wait for an ally to open the bag.


Assuming I am inside the bag of holding, and heal etc, can I gaseous form out of the bag of holding, or am I stuck until my ally opens the bag?

You'd be stuck inside the bag; see my previous answer.


Next is, how do you specifically kill vampires? My understand is this, some people say in the 3rd edition, disintegrate kills vampires, but since its an undead and they are immune to death effects, I think it still forces the vampire into gaseous form. An example of a spell that WOULD kill a vampire without allowing it to escape via gaseous form, is Sunburst, where it specifically says vampires are destroyed utterly if they fail the reflex save.

Disintegrate isn't a death effect. It doesn't have any descriptors at all. However, it still forces them into gaseous form because it reduces them to 0 hit points.

Two rounds of sunlight, three rounds of immersion in running water (unless they have a swim speed), and driving a stake through and subsequently destroying the body will all destroy a vampire. Stealing and hiding their coffin such that they can't reach it within 2 hours (or destroying every coffin in a nine-mile radius), and then forcing them into gaseous form, is another method.


It specifies in the MM what kills vampires. I assume any other spell unless it specifically says it kills vampires outright, instead reduce it to gaseous form. Is this correct? I think people get the "reduced to zero hit points" thing too literally, and assume an effect that would cause death or disintegration without hp damage kills a vampire outright, sunburst specifies specifically, if the other spells don't, I think we can assume the vampire just goes to gaseous.

"Reduced to zero hit points" means literally that: reduced to zero hit points. Death effects kill living characters without changing those character's hit point totals. If an effect would destroy a creature without changing that creature's hit point total, it can destroy a vampire instead of forcing the vampire into gaseous form.

Regarding Sunburst in particular:

In addition, the burst results in the destruction of any undead creature specifically harmed by bright light (such as a vampire) if it fail its save.
It applies to any creature that's specifically harmed by bright light. It doesn't name vampires because it's supposed to be able to kill vampires while other spells aren't; it names vampires to give an example.

[SecretlyaFish]

I'm going to stop you right here, first. The vampire's fast healing ability reads "If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, it automatically assumes gaseous form and attempts to escape." It's not if you'd be destroyed in combat, it's if you're reduced to 0 hit points. The "destroy undead" ability of Turn Undead destroys undead without changing their hit point total, so if you somehow ran into a cleric of high enough level to outright destroy you with a Turn Undead attempt (which actually might not be hard thanks to the Sun Domain's greater turning), they'd be able to get rid of you completely with just the turning/greater turning.

Anyways.



An important thing to keep in mind when using a Bag of Holding is that they aren't just bags that are larger on the inside than on the outside; they're containers for extradimensional spaces. Passing through the entrance to the bag doesn't put you inside the bag. It transports you to the extradimensional space. So you'd have to wait for an ally to open the bag.



You'd be stuck inside the bag; see my previous answer.



Disintegrate isn't a death effect. It doesn't have any descriptors at all. However, it still forces them into gaseous form because it reduces them to 0 hit points.

Two rounds of sunlight, three rounds of immersion in running water (unless they have a swim speed), and driving a stake through and subsequently destroying the body will all destroy a vampire. Stealing and hiding their coffin such that they can't reach it within 2 hours (or destroying every coffin in a nine-mile radius), and then forcing them into gaseous form, is another method.



"Reduced to zero hit points" means literally that: reduced to zero hit points. Death effects kill living characters without changing those character's hit point totals. If an effect would destroy a creature without changing that creature's hit point total, it can destroy a vampire instead of forcing the vampire into gaseous form.

Regarding Sunburst in particular:

It applies to any creature that's specifically harmed by bright light. It doesn't name vampires because it's supposed to be able to kill vampires while other spells aren't; it names vampires to give an example.

Thanks for clearing that up for me man!

[Callin]

Back in Second Edition our group had a Vampire who lived inside a Magnificent Mansion that was inside a bottle.

[Elbeyon]

How about just not closing the bag? Keep it open at all times. Add in a metal hoop if that seems so implausible.

[SecretlyaFish]

How about just not closing the bag? Keep it open at all times. Add in a metal hoop if that seems so implausible.

Could you go more into detail with what this means, and how I could use it to my advantage in gameplay?

[Elbeyon]

Sure. If the bag being closed is an issue never have the bag closed. Glue the sucker open. Put a metal hoop around the outside of the bags mouth and glue it to the ring. It'll stay open for your cloud form. I'm sure there are a lot of ways to keep it open. Make one up that fits for the group.

[SecretlyaFish]

Sure. If the bag being closed is an issue never have the bag closed. Glue the sucker open. Put a metal hoop around the outside of the bags mouth and glue it to the ring. It'll stay open for your cloud form. I'm sure there are a lot of ways to keep it open. Make one up that fits for the group.

That could work, a small put sturdy metal hoop with only the tiniest of opening, would technically still be open, and I could come and go as I wish. That would be an excellent portable coffin. But, here comes the other thing though, with it technically always open, does that protect me from the sun? If the opening is so small that only a few grains of sand at a time or something in gaseous form could get in, does the sun still affect me?

[Elbeyon]

Put a black cloth on the outside's mouth. Gas can certainly travel through cloth. If that doesn't work for some reason. Block the sun from the inside by. That'd put the control in the vamp's hands. Try an umbrella?

[SecretlyaFish]

Put a black cloth on the outside's mouth. Gas can certainly travel through cloth. If that doesn't work for some reason. Block the sun from the inside by. That'd put the control in the vamp's hands. Try an umbrella?

Good idea, I'm going to ask my DM what he thinks about that.

[SecretlyaFish]

Put a black cloth on the outside's mouth. Gas can certainly travel through cloth. If that doesn't work for some reason. Block the sun from the inside by. That'd put the control in the vamp's hands. Try an umbrella?

What if inside the bag of holding, I forced some humanoids I'd dominated to enter and construct a stone tomb, so that even if the bag was wide open and I was in my coffin, the sun from outside wouldn't touch me?

[Endarire]

If it works for him (http://oots.wikia.com/wiki/Monster_In_The_Darkness)...

[SecretlyaFish]

What about Mordenkainens Magnificent Mansion inside the bag of holding, would that also work? Can you construct anything inside the bag of holding?

[Andezzar]

What about Mordenkainens Magnificent Mansion inside the bag of holding, would that also work? Can you construct anything inside the bag of holding?No, you do not have LoE to the inside of the bag. It is an extradimensional space. You could however do that in a portable hole, as there are no explicit consequences for the interaction of two extradimensional spaces besides bags of holding and portable holes.

Has noone addressed the issue that a coffin in the bag of holding is not ever within 9 miles of the vampire? The coffin is in an extradimensional space. you cannot measure the distance to that.

[Elbeyon]

Watch out for weight limits on the bag. A stone tomb might weight too much.

The character could just cast the spell inside of the bag. No LoS issues.

The distance to be traveled is however far the bag is away.

[Andezzar]

Watch out for weight limits on the bag. A stone tomb might weight too much.

The character could just cast the spell inside of the bag. No LoS issues.

The distance to be traveled is however far the bag is away.A bag of holding of any type still is a "common cloth sack about 2 feet by 4 feet in size" on the outside. The rules do not say that the opening is any larger than the opening of such a sack. So at best you could get a circular opening with a circumference of 4 ft or a diameter of 1.27 ft. A coffin would not fit through that hole.

[SecretlyaFish]

No, you do not have LoE to the inside of the bag. It is an extradimensional space. You could however do that in a portable hole, as there are no explicit consequences for the interaction of two extradimensional spaces besides bags of holding and portable holes.

Has noone addressed the issue that a coffin in the bag of holding is not ever within 9 miles of the vampire? The coffin is in an extradimensional space. you cannot measure the distance to that.

What is LoE?

[SecretlyaFish]

Watch out for weight limits on the bag. A stone tomb might weight too much.

The character could just cast the spell inside of the bag. No LoS issues.

The distance to be traveled is however far the bag is away.

So as long as the character casts MMM inside the bag, there is no issues? Why is that? My DM seems to think that the 2 extradimensional spaces would cause an explosion.

[Extra Anchovies]

What is LoE?

Line of Effect. It means that there are no objects that would block a path between you and them. Targets that you don't have line of effect to get total cover against you and thus can't be targeted by your stuff.

ETA: if you realize you want to add something to a post, you should probably edit it in rather than double-posting.

[jiriku]

A bag of holding of any type still is a "common cloth sack about 2 feet by 4 feet in size" on the outside. The rules do not say that the opening is any larger than the opening of such a sack. So at best you could get a circular opening with a circumference of 4 ft or a diameter of 1.27 ft. A coffin would not fit through that hole.

Important point here. If you're a Medium-sized creature, any coffin narrow enough to slide into the bag is going to be too narrow for you to use as a coffin. About the only way I can think of to get around this would be to build the coffin using a ship-in-a-bottle technique where individual planks and swatches of cloth and pieces of metal hardware are placed in the bag, then they are assembled via long tools while in the bag's extradimensional space. This would result in a coffin in the bag that could never be removed. It's your DM's discretion as to whether this could be done at all, or what the Craft DC would be to build a coffin in this fashion.

[Andezzar]

What is LoE?Line of effect. Spells usually cannot go from one plane to another (or to an extradimesional space) The inside of the bag is not on the same plane as the caster.


So as long as the character casts MMM inside the bag, there is no issues? Why is that? My DM seems to think that the 2 extradimensional spaces would cause an explosion.That is not true. Only through the interactions of two specific extradimensional spaces (bag of holding and portable hole) do the rules say that there can be an explosion. The rules are silent on what happens if other ectradimensional spaces interact. At best they make allusions to vague hazards of such interactions. For what it's worth there is an Rules of the Game article (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd%2Frg%2F20051101a) that tells us to ignore this vague allusion.

[Elbeyon]

The coffin could always be built with hinges. In effect it could be a folding coffin that can flatten and fold out to hold a body. I can't imagine it'd be harder than a high-quality DC 15 check.

[Crake]

The coffin could always be built with hinges. In effect it could be a folding coffin that can flatten and fold out to hold a body. I can't imagine it'd be harder than a high-quality DC 15 check.

Or, you know, a 3rd level spell called shrink item

[Elbeyon]

That'd cost more money though... Good call. :smallbiggrin:

[jiriku]

Or, you know, a 3rd level spell called shrink item

Aaaaand once again a wizard solves all those petty real-world problems involving time and space.

[ksbsnowowl]

One other potential answer to your vampire's coffin problems is Ring Gates (DMG wondrous item), and then just make sure your party stays within 100 miles of your coffin's location. They are expensive, though.

Alternately, get the inter-dimensional version of Ring Gates (from Planar Handbook)... Have a wizard friend plane shift the other ring to the Plane of Shadow. That would be a nice way to make sure your coffin is out the rays of that killing sun.

I have some nagging sense that the inter-dimensional rings are cheaper than the Ring Gates. I could be completely mis-remembering that, though. Never mind, the planar ring gates are 5x the price of the normal ring gates. They are also 5-feet in diameter, making them impractical for this purpose.

(Other normal means of keeping your coffin undetectable on the other plane would apply, of course.)

[schreier]

It worked for Hexxat in Baldur's Gate II, so I'd let it go

[SecretlyaFish]

So when I tried to explain that the extradimensional explosion thing would only happen if the bag of holding and hole thing interact, and the MMM would indeed work inside a bag of holding as long as it was cast from inside, my DM literally flipped out at me and wouldn't speak to me once I brought it up that he was in fact wrong. Going so far as to say if I continued to speak to him at the moment he would block me on steam, where we were chatting.

I'm not sure the rules for what 2nd edition was, but my DM has a tendency to remember rules from 2nd edition D&D, and when you bring up that they have changed etc, he usually says something along the the lines of that's stupid or w/e. He doesn't like the changes and usually resorts to getting angry when proven wrong, or when any attempt is made to bring him up to date with the current rules in 3.5.

Do you guys have any advice for me here? I am trying to have a good campaign session, but its tough to deal with somebody who doesn't want to listen. He calls what I'm doing "rules lawyering", when most of the rules that are in his head, don't really contribute anything to the campaign, they just make things unnecessarily difficult for the player character, and they put a stopper on creative ways of thinking or doing things in game. For example, I'm scared that, if we were in an encounter and I beat the boss or got around a puzzle in a way he didn't anticipate, he would either bring up some imaginary or 2nd edition rule to say why what I did doesn't work, or he would secretly resent it and not want to play after awhile. Maybe that isn't the case, but its how he's making me feel with his attitude.

Any advice? This is the ONLY DM I've got, and honestly if he reads this, he probably won't even take it as constructive criticism he will just get insulted and probably tell me he won't play with me. If it doesn't work out with this DM, I won't ever play D&D, so I don't know what to do.

[Namfuak]

Could you just have your trusted ally carry a shrunken coffin instead of putting it in a bag of holding? 1/16 of a medium coffin (say 8 feet long) is only 6 inches, which is a bit long for a regular pocket but should fit in a pack just fine. You'll have to ask your DM how that impacts your ability to use it though, your ally may need to end the spell before you can reenter it (I'd probably rule that you can enter it as a gas but it has to be returned to regular size before you could start regenerating).

[ksbsnowowl]

I'm not sure the rules for what 2nd edition was, but my DM has a tendency to remember rules from 2nd edition D&D, and when you bring up that they have changed etc, he usually says something along the the lines of that's stupid or w/e. He doesn't like the changes and usually resorts to getting angry when proven wrong, or when any attempt is made to bring him up to date with the current rules in 3.5.

Do you guys have any advice for me here? Take a turn at the DM chair and start a new group (or maybe just offer to run a game so your edition-challenged DM can take a turn playing)?

I had a DM like that once, early on in 3rd edition. Despite the rules CLEARLY stating that a ring of protection stacks with armor (since one is deflection and one is armor), he refused to hear it (apparently they didn't stack in 2nd ed). I was also labeled a "rules lawyer." I refuse to game with people like that now. I played some in the early 2000's, but I've been almost exclusively a DM since 2008. Every game I've played in since then has fallen apart because the DM didn't realize how much work being a DM takes. Two or four or eight sessions in, and the campaign ends, because the attempted DM can't spare the time to prep.

[Andezzar]

Any advice? This is the ONLY DM I've got, and honestly if he reads this, he probably won't even take it as constructive criticism he will just get insulted and probably tell me he won't play with me. If it doesn't work out with this DM, I won't ever play D&D, so I don't know what to do.Besides offering to DM, you could play 2e or a completely different game. Or you could find a different DM, possibly even right here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?51-Finding-Players-(Recruitment)). No gaming is better than bad gaming

[P.F.]

As far as the bag of holding, I think that's a good plan, minus the part about a trusted ally (unless you mean another PC). You don't need line of effect to get into the bag as long as it's open, and the nine miles limitation refers to how far you can travel whilst in gaseous form; the fact that the coffin is on another plane of existence is immaterial so long as the physical passage to that plane is within nine miles of the place where you were forced into gaseous form. Note that that includes any circumnavigation due to dungeon passages, running water, etc., and even if your coffin is nine miles as the crow flies if you have to travel farther than that to get there you're toast.

As far as what kills a vampire I came up with this list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?386970-R-A-W-How-to-Slay-a-Vampire) for a "Vampires Versus Adventurers" game I was running a while back. Some of the suggestions are quite inventive, but I couldn't bring myself to include grappling a vampire in gaseous form.

As far as disintegrate is concerned, I have taken the "Any creature reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by this spell is entirely disintegrated" as preempting the fast healing rule, "If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, it automatically assumes gaseous form." It's rather Talmudic, but I have to contend that the spell descriptions in the Player's Handbook have primacy over the ability descriptions in the Monster Manual because the Player's Handbook is the primary source for "rules for playing the game." It isn't as clear-cut as it would be were the fast healing rule published in a secondary (non-core) rulebook, so your DM will probably have to arbitrate anyway.

As far as your DM goes, you're not likely to have a good experience no matter what you do if there is a personality conflict and/or he is having personal problems. However, if you're going to give it a go anyways, you'll probably have more fun if you just roll with his houserules and 2nd ed. rules holdovers. In my group we have players who if left unchecked will spend literally hours debating why the DM's ruling is incorrect; it's easy to get hung up on a rules debate, but once we move on it seems a lot less important by then end of the night. Or we bitch about it some more after the game. Either way. Just like an umpire, the DM is always right, even when he's wrong.

[Andezzar]

the fact that the coffin is on another plane of existence is immaterial so long as the physical passage to that plane is within nine miles of the place where you were forced into gaseous form. Actually the 9 miles are irrelevant as well. The vampire only has to reach the coffin with two hours. The SRD also mentions that a vampire in gaseous form can travel 9 miles in two hours. I don't think this precludes any faster forms of travel like a silenced, stilled teleport or the shadow jaunt/stride/blink.