[3.5] Fixed List Gish

[Thurbane]

If you had to chose one of the fixed list spontaneous casters (Beguiler, Dread Necro or Warmage) as the casting chassis for a Gish build, which would it be?

Not talking Rainbow Warsnake with persisted Divine Power, but a more "traditional" Gish build like the Sorcadin.

Just a hypothetical, really. I know Wiz/Sorc makes a better Gish...

Cheers - T

[WhamBamSam]

If you had to chose one of the fixed list spontaneous casters (Beguiler, Dread Necro or Warmage) as the casting chassis for a Gish build, which would it be?

Not talking Rainbow Warsnake with persisted Divine Power, but a more "traditional" Gish build like the Sorcadin.

Just a hypothetical, really. I know Wiz/Sorc makes a better Gish...

Cheers - TProbably Naenhoon Illumian Dread Necromancer for a little Persist cheese (possibly grabbing something via Arcane Disciple), or is that too close to a Warsnake? Even if it is, I'd probably still go Dread Necro, with a splash of Warblade or Crusader leading into JPM so I could use White Raven stuff with my undead army.

[Extra Anchovies]

Hm.

When I mention a channel-based gish, that means someone who channels spells through their weapons. Duskblades work well for this, but since you want a different caster base, Duskblade is only worth a 1 level dip. Duskblade, Raumathari Battlemage, a Bloodstone Spell Storing weapon, and maybe a few Spellsword levels lets you channel three, four, or sometimes five spells at once (since I don't think there's anything preventing each of the various channeling abilities from stacking onto the same attack). This is my favorite type of gish, since it's more interesting than just polymorphing into a cryohydra for every fight.

When I mention a buff-based gish, that means someone who increases their combat abilities through spellcasting. Swiftblade builds are a good example of this.

Dread Necromancer would make for an okay channel-based gish. They've got the full Inflict Wounds chain, Vampiric Touch, Bestow Curse, Enervation, Poison, Slay Living, Harm (arguably one of the best spells to channel), Finger of Death, Destruction, Energy Drain, and Imprison Soul. They don't have the spells for a buff-based gish.

Beguiler doesn't have the spells for either buff- or channel-based gishing. Rogue 1/Beguiler 4/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 5 could work in melee if you have the HP for it, since Beguilers do get Greater Invisibility, and that build has a lot of skill points.

Warmage is possibly a better option for channel-based gishing than the Dread Necromancer. They can get Vampiric Touch via Eclectic Learning (especially if you PrC out early via Precocious Apprentice to save the Warmage 3 Advanced Learning for it), and the Orb spells, along with all the other nasty stuff, will probably outdamage the Inflict chain. Their main issue is that most of their stuff isn't touch-range, it's ranged-touch or area-targeted, so you won't be able to channel-gish until you get some Raumathari Battlemage levels (as opposed to Dread Necro, who can start channel-gishing effectively with a Duskblade dip).

Of these, I think I'd actually go with Dread Necromancer for the base, especially if Eclectic Learning is open to non-Warmages with the Advanced Learning ability. They need one more Evocation on their list to qualify for Raumathari Battlemage, because the only two they have are Darkness (2nd) and Unhallow (5th).

[WhamBamSam]

Hm.

When I mention a channel-based gish, that means someone who channels spells through their weapons. Duskblades work well for this, but since you want a different caster base, Duskblade is only worth a 1 level dip. Duskblade, Raumathari Battlemage, a Bloodstone Spell Storing weapon, and maybe a few Spellsword levels lets you channel three, four, or sometimes five spells at once (since I don't think there's anything preventing each of the various channeling abilities from stacking onto the same attack). This is my favorite type of gish, since it's more interesting than just polymorphing into a cryohydra for every fight.

When I mention a buff-based gish, that means someone who increases their combat abilities through spellcasting. Swiftblade builds are a good example of this.

Dread Necromancer would make for an okay channel-based gish. They've got the full Inflict Wounds chain, Vampiric Touch, Bestow Curse, Enervation, Poison, Slay Living, Harm (arguably one of the best spells to channel), Finger of Death, Destruction, Energy Drain, and Imprison Soul. They don't have the spells for a buff-based gish.

Beguiler doesn't have the spells for either buff- or channel-based gishing. Rogue 1/Beguiler 4/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 5 could work in melee if you have the HP for it, since Beguilers do get Greater Invisibility, and that build has a lot of skill points.

Warmage is possibly a better option for channel-based gishing than the Dread Necromancer. They can get Vampiric Touch via Eclectic Learning (especially if you PrC out early via Precocious Apprentice to save the Warmage 3 Advanced Learning for it), and the Orb spells, along with all the other nasty stuff, will probably outdamage the Inflict chain. Their main issue is that most of their stuff isn't touch-range, it's ranged-touch or area-targeted, so you won't be able to channel-gish until you get some Raumathari Battlemage levels (as opposed to Dread Necro, who can start channel-gishing effectively with a Duskblade dip).

Of these, I think I'd actually go with Dread Necromancer for the base, especially if Eclectic Learning is open to non-Warmages with the Advanced Learning ability. They need one more Evocation on their list to qualify for Raumathari Battlemage, because the only two they have are Darkness (2nd) and Unhallow (5th).You don't get Channel Spell until Duskblade 3.

Since most means of spell channeling involves standard action attacks rather than full attacks, and in the case of Spellsword, burning your move action, it might be a good idea for a Dread Necro gish to ride an undead mount into the fray. If your existing orders are clear enough, you won't have to burn a move action to direct the mount while riding it (though that might require some manner of intelligent undead for your mount, so you can just have "follow my verbal instructions" or what have you to get the thing going where you want it with a free action from the Necromancer himself), and you can use said move action to channel a spell or whatever before unleashing your channel attack with your standard, all while enjoying the benefit of Spirited Charge.

[nedz]

I can build Rogue type Gishes around Beguiler, but not combat ones. There's just no synergy with the spells.

Similar issues with Warmage, albeit with different spells and I'm not sure that even works as a skillmonkey.

So your only real hope is DN, unless you want a second line fighter with some magic on the side — which, interesting character though that may be, is not really a Gish.

[Vhaidara]

It doesn't really work in standard play, but one of my personal favorite Gestalts was combining a Dread Necro Fear build (DN/Dread Witch/Nightmare Spinner) with Hexblade on the other side. It turned into a solid fear gish, between Dark Companion, Fear Aura, ignoring immunity to fear, and I think I even grabbed a 3 level dip in Paladin of Tyranny for the save debuff there.

[OldTrees1]

Dread Necromancer gets a fear aura that encourages them to get in melee range. They are always armed via Charnel Touch and their Martial Weapon of choice. They might have even picked up the Imperious Command feat after finding some Fearsome armor. They seem geared towards becoming some kind of undead, usually a Gravetouched Ghoul, a Necropolitian, a Ghost, or a Lich. Most of those also enhance melee capabilities. When they become undead they typically gain a slew of benefits (1d12+8 HD, +4 Str/Dex, ...).