PDA

View Full Version : Wizard vs. dragon



PaladinBoy
2007-04-25, 07:26 PM
The following was in a message to Emperor Tippy. He told me to post a thread for an answer, so, well, here it is.


I've seen you post on several threads that wizards rarely have need for money, because they can just go out and solo a CR 20 dragon whenever they need more money.

Would you mind giving me a description of exactly how this is done? I don't think that it's possible, but I obviously would need to know more about the wizard's strategy to be sure. I think it's been asked before, but I can't seem to remember what you responded with.

You can use anything in the SRD or Spell Compendium for spells. If you need something from a different book, then I'd ask that you tell me which book it's from and provide a quick description.

Takamari
2007-04-25, 07:44 PM
It can't be done if the DM runs the dragon right. The biggest cheese was the Frostburn Book: Shivering Touch (I think). It did 3d6 dex damage with no save, 3rd level spell. Maximize and empower for the extra kick, 27 dex damage...disabled dragon. Assay Spell Resistance+Shivering Touch FTW.

But your DM will hate you. I don't allow that spell....way to broken for a 3rd level spell.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-25, 07:51 PM
Round 1:Maximized Time Stop
TS Round 1Greater Teleport
TS Round 2Assay Spell Resistance*
TS Round 3Do whatever you feel like
TS Round 4Do some more of whatever you feel like
TS Round 5Ready an action to cast a Maximized Shivering Touch** on the dragon as soon as the timestop ends

The Dragon is now in a coma for the next 20 rounds, if you can't get it dead by then just use another Maximized Shivering Touch.

Congratulations, you have just soloed a CR 20 wrym black dragon.

*Spell Compendium
**Frostburn

You can also solo a dragon in core but the easiest way costs you about 40K (it involves lots of scrolls of Delayed Blast Fireball)


It can't be done if the DM runs the dragon right.
Yes it can, its just much more difficult.

The biggest cheese was the Frostburn Book: Shivering Touch (I think). It did 3d6 dex damage with no save, 3rd level spell. Maximize and empower for the extra kick, 27 dex damage...disabled dragon. Assay Spell Resistance+Shivering Touch FTW.
Yep, the best way to kill a dragon.


But your DM will hate you. I don't allow that spell....way to broken for a 3rd level spell.
Yeah, it is broken. But that doesn't matter. The OP's question was how is it done. That is the easiest way.

Takamari
2007-04-25, 07:53 PM
I knew it!!! lol

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-25, 08:37 PM
It can't be done if the DM runs the dragon right.
vs
Yes it can, its just much more difficult.Some people I'm sure will argue that if the wizard CAN beat the dragon, that means the DM isn't "playing the dragon right." Of course that's completely circular and illogical, but I've heard it before.

Furthermore, many examples of how to "play the dragon right" typically involve spending massive portions of the hoard treasure on traps, minions, mercenaries, and magic items all to foil various tactics the wizard might use. All of this based on the idea that "a dragon is super-clever, old, and canny, and would realistically have thought of all of these things."

kpenguin
2007-04-25, 09:10 PM
A dragon is super-clever, old and canny. Those 30+ cha, wis, and int scores aren't there for no reason, you know.

Here's my challenge: fight a CR 20 dragon using only core and a wizard.

Agatsuma
2007-04-25, 09:15 PM
If a human wizard can think of tactics, then it is not exceeding reason for a several hundred year old dragon of equal intelligence-to-greater intelligence and equal-to-greater resources (monetarily or in minion-power) to have ways of beating those tactics.

PaladinBoy
2007-04-25, 09:20 PM
Yes, I realize that this quote is a little out of order.


Yeah, it is broken. But that doesn't matter. The OP's question was how is it done. That is the easiest way.

I don't mind a little debate on the methods, if you don't.


Round 1:Maximized Time Stop
TS Round 1Greater Teleport
TS Round 2Assay Spell Resistance*
TS Round 3Do whatever you feel like
TS Round 4Do some more of whatever you feel like
TS Round 5Ready an action to cast a Maximized Shivering Touch** on the dragon as soon as the timestop ends

The Dragon is now in a coma for the next 20 rounds, if you can't get it dead by then just use another Maximized Shivering Touch.

Congratulations, you have just soloed a CR 20 wrym black dragon.

*Spell Compendium
**Frostburn

Interesting. I do agree that that Shivering Touch spell seems broken.

Even if you let that one go, I still think that it's not erroneous to assume that the dragon will see you coming and be able to prepare. It definitely seems reasonable to assume that the dragon will protect its hoard with some defenses; at least being able to detect scrying. When the dragon knows that a high-level wizard is preparing to come and get him, then he will prepare some defenses against his magic.

That said, the strategy seems like it would work, even on a prepared dragon.

Even then, I don't think it would work more than a few times. Dragons do tend to keep tabs on each other, so they'd eventually decide to figure out how this upstart elf was killing so many of them. Also, anyone that kills more than 1 or 2 great wyrm or wyrm dragons gains a massive reputation as a dragonslayer, which means the dragons will start paying attention to him. Particularly if it becomes known that he's only doing it to steal their hoards, then pretty much every dragon worth killing for its treasure will become much more alert. Worst case scenario, they band together to kill the upstart..... and I note that that strategy only works on 1 dragon; if 2 or more are in the area, then your wizard is running, or teleporting, for his life.

Add some of the things that make dragon encounters unique to the equation, particularly minions and/or offspring, and the problem only gets worse. You could use TS round 3 or 4 to deal with them, but if there are enough of them spread out appropriately, then that might not be enough. Granted, they might not be that much of a threat, but they'll cause you to waste time and might manage to reach/hurt you.


You can also solo a dragon in core but the easiest way costs you about 40K (it involves lots of scrolls of Delayed Blast Fireball)

How's that work? (Yes, I'm curious, sue me. :smallsmile: )

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-25, 09:21 PM
*sigh* A dragon is a CR 20 challenge if fought in an open field as pretty much a random encounter. Their CR does not take into account their lair or the things that they may have spent their hoard on.

And their are some tactics that just can't be countered, even if you know about them.

And it isn't that hard Kpenguin. Timestop and about 20 scrolls of CL 20 DBF are all that are required.

Pre-Combat (in your base): TS
TS Round 1: Greater Teleport to the dragon
TS Roudn 2: Ready an action to cast Maximized TS as soon as TS ends (repeat on any other rounds until you have a maximized TS)
Maximized TS Round 1: DBF the dragon (from a scroll or with spell slots, scroll recommended) and set it to go off in 5 rounds.
Maximized TS Round 2: DBF the dragon (from a scroll or with spell slots, scroll recommended) and set it to go off in 4 rounds.
Maximized TS Round 3: DBF the dragon (from a scroll or with spell slots, scroll recommended) and set it to go off in 3 rounds.
Maximized TS Round 4: DBF the dragon (from a scroll or with spell slots, scroll recommended) and set it to go off in 2 rounds.
Maximized TS Round 5: Ready an action to cast a maximized TS once the current TS goes away.

Round 1: The 4 DBF's explode for an average of 240 damage to the black dragon. Your readied action TS goes off as well, repeat above until the dragon is dead.

Thats the basic idea. 10 Scrolls of DBF gets you an average of 600 damage (over 100 more than a black wryms average HP).

Those scrolls cost something like 40K and you get 240,000 GP from the dragon. That leaves you 200,000 in profit.

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-25, 09:34 PM
well yes, it IS all of those things. But that doesn't mean that it's guaranteed to have the perfect lair setup to defeat any party that comes after it. The problem with this line of reasoning is that it turns into an arms race: the wizard comes up with strategies X,Y,Z to beat dragon defenses, and the "dragons can't lose" proponent basically says, "No, the dragon is too old and smart for that to work, he'd have wards A,B,C in place to stop you." Which means no dragon can ever be killed, because any of the elaborate things that would stop a wizard...guess what, they'll stop the rest of the party just as dead.

Dragons are supposed to be hard. Their stats are there to MAKE them hard. But they're not unkillable god monsters, and can therefore be slain by a well-prepared wizard.

What needs to happen for this to be a fair challenge, is for the dragon to be built either before, or at the same time as, the wizard PC. It doesn't do any good to say, "okay, that's your wizard build, here's how a properly-run dragon wouldn't let it work." That's very antagonistic DMing.

Kpenguin: if you want to do that challenge, build a CR 20 core-only dragon. You don't even have to show us the build, just be honest enough to not CHANGE it once the wizard posts his tactics. I bet the wizard will be able to handle it.

ocato
2007-04-25, 09:38 PM
Well, the dragon and wizard have a battle royale, and the dragon almost kills him with an evil kapow. But then he breaks his tooth and thus the dragon says ow.

vanyell
2007-04-25, 09:50 PM
I just have to ask. how are we getting maximized time stop again? level 13 equivelent spell? must be missing a rulebook somewhere

CASTLEMIKE
2007-04-25, 09:52 PM
IMO a Dragon should be played Intelligently like a Player. It is very doubtful the PC or PCs would be able to learn All the Dragon's Active and Passive Magical and NonMagical Defenses. I agree Dragons are pretty Easy to Kill if they don't defend themselves. Even the Evil Dragons have have Powerful Blood Relations who probably really don't care much for each other but that doesn't mean a greedy mere mortal can go and steal "Their" Inheritence Uncle or Auntie was "Safeguarding" for Them.

I'm not a centuries old Dragon with Super Genius Intelligence and Wisdom Enhanced by Magic Items and lots of experience. I just spent a half hour or so thinking about some of the defenses.

The First problem is a PC determining just Where Exactly a CR 20 Dragon is as they generally live in remote regions without street addresses.

Second where the Dragon's lair is the dragons doesn't spend all his time there. Maybe he likes wandering around the city polymorphed like a native so you can't just go up and murder him in public.

Third just where is his treasure hidden now that you have killed him. (Probably nearby).

***On the same theme PCs shouldn't live in a Campaign Vaccuum. What are They doing to prevent this from their Enemies and Treasure Seeking Assassins and Thieves from employing their tactics against themselves.

The Black Dragon has water breathing and is Immune to Acid. With his Intelliegence and Wisdom his lair would take advantage of that and other dragons would do the same things utilizing natural abilities. Certainly underwater at the minimum and with a good chance of it being in a Pool of Acid as he and his items would not be affected by it.

A Black Dragon Wyrm is a CR 19 and a Great Wyrm is a CR21. So figure either Sorcerer 13 + 1 Augmented Sorcerer Level to make the Wyrm a CR20 Sorcerer level 14 or Sorcerer 15 the Great Wyrm. That is level 7 or 8 spells.

Although the Black Dragon would Only have a Base Intelligence of 18 or 20 but they are Cunning. There is No Reason it would not have some sort of Intelligence Enhancing Item like a +2 Ioun Stone for 8,000 GP (4,000 GP if he made it himself) or One of the Headbands of Intellect as part of it's Treasure Hoard.

After centuries of existence and surviving people Trying to Kill It and Steal it's Treasure it is very hard to argue reasonably that a Dragon would not have at the very least some form of Continuous Nondetection (Via Sorcerer Spells or an Item) and a Permanent Mindblank Item like a Greenstone Amulet would not be out of hand for a dragon of this magnitude to Foil Locate Creature and Other Divinations.

There is no reason a Dragon wouldn't pay "Arcane and Divine Think Tanks" every few years on the best ways to Defend Oneself from High Level Caster Assassins and Thieves as Treasure can Always be Replaced with Time plus now you have a very angry dragon very upset with you.

I would think Most Dragons would probably Employ Enhanced PC Anti Assassination and Theft Tactics. Things like having Detect Scrying in effect via a spell or permanent enchantment (Cheap Heads Up More Treasure Bearing Thieves and Assassins are Coming).

IMO for a Dragon there are Simple, Easy, Cheap and Moderately Inexpensive things a dragon with centuries of experience could do.

The lair could be located in the Underdark or somewhere similar that is warded against Teleportion like in the Underdark or Scrying and Teleportaion in Myth Drannor or Many Other Mythals for No Cost to the Dragon.

The Dragon could have a "Contingency" to teleport away when someone teleports near him or within a certain distance. The Dragon could have learned the secrets to overcoming the Teleportation Warding over the centuries and have No Trouble Dimension Jumping, Dooring or Teleporting.

The Dragon could have enchanted his lair with a permanent dimensional anchor as per the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook that he is unaffected by so No Teleporation Inside the Lair Surprises.

The Dragon could use a False Vision for when being scried on (lasts 1 hour a level without being extended) and the Dragon could have a "Simulacrum" False Lair with a False Modest Minor Trap Treasure.

Even Discern Location requires the PC to have seen the creature or possess an item that once belonged to it another reason for the Dragon to have a Permanent Mindblank in some form or not spend a lot of time in your lair. There is some interpretation in the spellAlthough finding just the right cave in "Dragon's Mountain" particularly if the Dragon moves around the caves.

There are various spells and rituals to revive creatures in the event of premature death.

I love the Soul Locked Template for a Dragon Killed in this Manner by a Greedy Party of PCs.

Dragonmuncher
2007-04-25, 10:03 PM
I just have to ask. how are we getting maximized time stop again? level 13 equivelent spell? must be missing a rulebook somewhere

Metamagic Rod of Maxamize. Lets you spontaneously maximize a spell you cast a few times a day.

Don't think that's core, though...

PaladinBoy
2007-04-25, 10:07 PM
And it isn't that hard Kpenguin. Timestop and about 20 scrolls of CL 20 DBF are all that are required.

Pre-Combat (in your base): TS
TS Round 1: Greater Teleport to the dragon
TS Roudn 2: Ready an action to cast Maximized TS as soon as TS ends (repeat on any other rounds until you have a maximized TS)
Maximized TS Round 1: DBF the dragon (from a scroll or with spell slots, scroll recommended) and set it to go off in 5 rounds.
Maximized TS Round 2: DBF the dragon (from a scroll or with spell slots, scroll recommended) and set it to go off in 4 rounds.
Maximized TS Round 3: DBF the dragon (from a scroll or with spell slots, scroll recommended) and set it to go off in 3 rounds.
Maximized TS Round 4: DBF the dragon (from a scroll or with spell slots, scroll recommended) and set it to go off in 2 rounds.
Maximized TS Round 5: Ready an action to cast a maximized TS once the current TS goes away.

Round 1: The 4 DBF's explode for an average of 240 damage to the black dragon. Your readied action TS goes off as well, repeat above until the dragon is dead.

Thats the basic idea. 10 Scrolls of DBF gets you an average of 600 damage (over 100 more than a black wryms average HP).

Those scrolls cost something like 40K and you get 240,000 GP from the dragon. That leaves you 200,000 in profit.

Only problem I have with that is that the dragon, which as I mentioned earlier has a good chance of seeing you coming, now realizes that somebody is buying up all the scrolls of DBF in the nearby metropolis, connects the dots, and purchases/casts a spell or item that grants fire resistance, or fire immunity if he can find one.

Also, you'll get 12 DBFs off before your greater maximize metamagic rod runs out. Then you'll get a up to 4 more on a normal TS. Depeding on the spells/items used to resist fire, that may not be enough to kill the dragon. I'll grant that you could have 2 (or more) metamagic rods, for something approaching 24 DBFs. That probably would do it, unless the dragon did manage to get fire immunity via item. Again, it's not something that would work for an infinite number of times; other dragons would eventually find a counter or just team up and massacre you.

SpiderBrigade: While I agree that changing the dragon build afterward may be unfair, I would say that that is only true for things that the dragon cannot change. Hiring more minions or buying magic items to counter your strategies is well within the dragon's funding and/or intelligence. We would probably also need to know the time necessary for the wizard to complete his preparations, likelihood of the dragon figuring out the problem, and the resultant time the dragon has to prepare. Then we'd need to know how much each side could learn about the other's plans.

Also, my estimate of the dragon's anti-scrying protections only includes detecting scrying. If the dragon has magic strong enough to block your scrying, or even misdirect it, then you won't be able to just teleport in.

Finally, a dragon really should never be a vanilla encounter, IMHO. Any dragon encounter should include these troublesome little details which make it harder.

EDIT: Metamagic rods are core. They're in the DMG (can't remember the page and don't have it handy)

Roderick_BR
2007-04-25, 10:10 PM
I just have to ask. how are we getting maximized time stop again? level 13 equivelent spell? must be missing a rulebook somewhere
Rods of greater metamagic. Pretty broken for a non-epic magic item. By level 20, you can have a dozen of each (each allows you to use a metamagic 3 times a day without affecting the spell level, or needing to prepare in advance.)

Beardtrix
2007-04-25, 10:17 PM
The First problem is a PC determining just Where Exactly a CR 20 Dragon is as they generally live in remote regions without street addresses. Second where the Dragon's lair is the dragons doesn't spend all his time there. Third where is his treasure hidden. (Probably nearby).


Indeed. How many ranks does your average wizard have in knowledge(draconic lore)? I'd probably make them take the test on the average of that and their track skill just to be on the safe side. Adding a penalty for anything above a young dragon of course, since older dragons will be more adept at concealing their lair.


That's very antagonistic DMing.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antagonist

Jade_Tarem
2007-04-25, 10:17 PM
Only problem I have with that is that the dragon, which as I mentioned earlier has a good chance of seeing you coming, now realizes that somebody is buying up all the scrolls of DBF in the nearby metropolis, connects the dots, and purchases/casts a spell or item that grants fire resistance, or fire immunity if he can find one.

Also, you'll get 12 DBFs off before your greater maximize metamagic rod runs out. Then you'll get a up to 4 more on a normal TS. Depeding on the spells/items used to resist fire, that may not be enough to kill the dragon. I'll grant that you could have 2 (or more) metamagic rods, for something approaching 24 DBFs. That probably would do it, unless the dragon did manage to get fire immunity via item. Again, it's not something that would work for an infinite number of times; other dragons would eventually find a counter or just team up and massacre you.

SpiderBrigade: While I agree that changing the dragon build afterward may be unfair, I would say that that is only true for things that the dragon cannot change. Hiring more minions or buying magic items to counter your strategies is well within the dragon's funding and/or intelligence. We would probably also need to know the time necessary for the wizard to complete his preparations, likelihood of the dragon figuring out the problem, and the resultant time the dragon has to prepare. Then we'd need to know how much each side could learn about the other's plans.

Also, my estimate of the dragon's anti-scrying protections only includes detecting scrying. If the dragon has magic strong enough to block your scrying, or even misdirect it, then you won't be able to just teleport in.

Finally, a dragon really should never be a vanilla encounter, IMHO. Any dragon encounter should include these troublesome little details which make it harder.

EDIT: Metamagic rods are core. They're in the DMG (can't remember the page and don't have it handy)

The "the dragon knows the intimate details of the wizard's purchases" argument is really just DM god-moding. You think the dragon is keeping tabs on just the scroll purchases? A really old, paranoid dragon might be recieving overviews of the economies of the nearby towns, but the wizard can purchase his scrolls anywhere (courtesy of teleport). The dragon does not care about the price of tea in china. And he really isn't going to sacrifice part of his hoarde every time a few scrolls are bought up, anyhow.

What the dragon will probably have is several alarms, a few traps, and some guardians. If he wants to blow one of his precious sorcerer spells known on anticipate teleportation, then that might work, but then, maybe not. Also, he'd have to know the wizard was coming in advance.

The problem with that is that the wizard just warps in and starts shooting out of nowhere. And once TS goes off, that's it. The wizard engine is chugging and the dragon can't stop it.

Edit (to Beardtrix): My internet refuses to bring up your wikipedia link. It really is antagonistic DMing, though, because the DM has become the player's opponent rather than game master. The DM's job isn't to make the player lose no matter what, it's to challenge them. Decreeing that the dragon knows everything about the incoming wizard, including the date and time of the attack, and has set up a counter for everything the wizard is going to do is a tad unrealistic, even in a world of magic and dragons.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-25, 10:19 PM
Only problem I have with that is that the dragon, which as I mentioned earlier has a good chance of seeing you coming, now realizes that somebody is buying up all the scrolls of DBF in the nearby metropolis, connects the dots, and purchases/casts a spell or item that grants fire resistance, or fire immunity if he can find one.
I do all my shopping in sigil or union.


Also, you'll get 12 DBFs off before your greater maximize metamagic rod runs out. Then you'll get a up to 4 more on a normal TS. Depeding on the spells/items used to resist fire, that may not be enough to kill the dragon. I'll grant that you could have 2 (or more) metamagic rods, for something approaching 24 DBFs. That probably would do it, unless the dragon did manage to get fire immunity via item. Again, it's not something that would work for an infinite number of times; other dragons would eventually find a counter or just team up and massacre you.
Sigh fine. Throw in a quickened disjunction to destroy the dragons magical items. And the dragons CR doesn't take into account items so your upping it above CR 20.


SpiderBrigade: While I agree that changing the dragon build afterward may be unfair, I would say that that is only true for things that the dragon cannot change. Hiring more minions or buying magic items to counter your strategies is well within the dragon's funding and/or intelligence. We would probably also need to know the time necessary for the wizard to complete his preparations, likelihood of the dragon figuring out the problem, and the resultant time the dragon has to prepare. Then we'd need to know how much each side could learn about the other's plans.
Incorrect. None of that is involved in a CR 20 dragon. Its Lair and Minions are separate encounters. Their CR is assuming that you run into 1 randomly out in a field somewhere.


Also, my estimate of the dragon's anti-scrying protections only includes detecting scrying. If the dragon has magic strong enough to block your scrying, or even misdirect it, then you won't be able to just teleport in.
See above. And remember, their are tons of dragons in the world. For every 10 smart ones their is the idiot one that doesn't have all of those protections and what not. And the idiot is the one you target.


Finally, a dragon really should never be a vanilla encounter, IMHO. Any dragon encounter should include these troublesome little details which make it harder.
Meh. Dragons are nothing special at those levels. And all of that is great but it is not within the auspices of the original question.

Demented
2007-04-25, 10:19 PM
If only Fighters could get five free Full Attacks at will, the world would be aright. =P

Nahhhh.

This doesn't seem like a dragon thing. More like a magic thing.

Though, given they have the intellect to realize this sort of thing, it's hard to justify dragons running around with treasure hoards when they could instead be spending their hoards on gathering 20 levels in wizard. Then they'd just hoard spellbooks, and be exponentially more fearsome doing it.

Can you imagine what 50 hitdice bookworms would be doing with 9th level spells? Essentially pre-epic, for that matter.

"Hey, watch this! Maximise Empowered Heightened Wish!"

"...Heightened?"

"To 18th level. Suck my scales, reality!"

Generic PC
2007-04-25, 10:22 PM
note, rods of greater maximization are available in the DMG.
Also, even with the Water/Acid, wizards can cast first level spells protection from acid, and water breathing too

Beardtrix
2007-04-25, 10:27 PM
Edit (to Beardtrix): My internet refuses to bring up your wikipedia link.

"An antagonist is a character or group of characters, or, sometimes an institution of a happening who represents the opposition against which the hero(es) or protagonist(s) must contend. In the classic style of story wherein the action consists of a hero fighting a villain, the two can be regarded as protagonist and antagonist, respectively."

Doesn't add a whole lot to the debate, I know. I was just surprised by the accuracy of the article- unusual for wikipedia :-)

Takamari
2007-04-25, 10:46 PM
Emperor Tippy, does your CR 20 wizard run around without any items? Mine doesn't. I seriously doubt that ANY dragon is going to be naked, as it were, and attack someone.

The way I see it, is that a creature that is assigned equipment and abilities have those abilities and equipment factored into it. Otherwise, all the CRs are off if the creature has any excess equipment. A dragon has a hoard. Think of it as its Value in the starting gear section. Any dragon that just looks at his money and doesn't use it to keep him/herself alive, is, well, a dragon played by a poor DM.

My point is, that the name of the game is Dungeons and Dragons, not Dungeons and Wizards. You seem to be forgetting that Dragons at that level also cast spells. Anything you can do, it can probabily do better. Now, you are delayed because the dragon has his Anticipate Teleportation up and running. He has either teleported away, or set up his own timestop. Now, he directs his disjunction at you, and you die.

Now, looking at it as a random encounter. Oh, wait, a CR 20 dragon won't be a random encounter. I promise. Any DM won't do it. Why? Because a CR 20 dragon is not going to swoop down on a wandering wizard without cause, for one. The biggest one, at least IMO, is that Dragons are NOT random encounters for any DM worth his salt...unless he has specifically warned you that there be dragons about...and then it still isn't random because the DM would have been prepared.

I mean no offense, I really don't, but it seems like you are forgetting that a dragon is smarter naturally than your wizard and should be prepared for it.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-04-25, 10:56 PM
Round 1:Maximized Time Stop
TS Round 1Greater Teleport
TS Round 2Assay Spell Resistance*
TS Round 3Do whatever you feel like
TS Round 4Do some more of whatever you feel like
TS Round 5Ready an action to cast a Maximized Shivering Touch** on the dragon as soon as the timestop ends

The Dragon is now in a coma for the next 20 rounds, if you can't get it dead by then just use another Maximized Shivering Touch.

Congratulations, you have just soloed a CR 20 wrym black dragon.

*Spell Compendium
**Frostburn

You can also solo a dragon in core but the easiest way costs you about 40K (it involves lots of scrolls of Delayed Blast Fireball)


Yes it can, its just much more difficult.

Yep, the best way to kill a dragon.


Yeah, it is broken. But that doesn't matter. The OP's question was how is it done. That is the easiest way.

You might enjoy a solo adventure against this Black Dragon with a Good Player from your group rolepalying the dragon taking precautions, trying to Survive First, Keep his Treasure Second and Increase his Hoard Third in an adventure or two supervised by the DM while your PC tries to locate the Dragon and Kill It to steal his hoard.

I had a really Great DM who had a very interesting way of resolving these exercises in logic. He would DM an encounter between the Player who Believed he could Solo a Dragon or Other Creature with his PC and a Good Player from the group who took a few days to familiarize himself with the Dragon/Creature capabilities and partially optimize it with Half of it's Treasure and Roleplaying the Dragon Defending It's Life and It's Hoard. Things Generally Fared Poorly for the Solo Wizard who got to keep the treasure if he won or generate a new one if he failed and didn't take adequate precautions to insure resurrection. The Dragon/Creature Player would get something nice for his PC for doing a good job roleplaying the Dragon/Creature.

I don't think a DM would be out of line ruling the Greater Teleport Fails in this particular scenario as it really Constitutes a Magical Attack Teleporting to a Specific Creature to Do it Harm to Deliver a Touch Attack which is "Prohibited" as per the Spell Text description Magical Spell Attacks on Creatures while Timestopped.

I think most Solo Wizards Would Die Attacking creatures like Dragons unless the DM is Purposely or Inadvertently Suboptimizing the Dragon because they are barely familiar with the Dragon capabilites much less it's spells or hoard. Normally encounters like these should rate as a suboptimized encounter IMO since the Creature basic abilites and capabilities are not utilized. Even without the Dragons taking any but minimal precautions for a CR20 Black Dragon we are also talking a Sorcerer 14+ with Useful Magic Items in their Hoard:

Some might Disagree but I also Don't Think the Assay Spell Resistance Spell should work because it is a "Harmful" Spell Specifically "Targeting" the Dragon (It Overcomes the Spell Resistance of a Specific Creature which must be seen by the wizard to cast the spell) which was cast while the PC was "Timestopped" and requires the Wizard to See the creature being Targeted it is Not an Area Spell like Cloudkill which is specifically allowed.

A simple Contingency spell with (Blink (50% chance of Missing...) or Mirror Image (6-9 Images) or Teleport) triggered when a creature dimensionally travels within a certain range of the Dragon would normally negate the Touch Attack and Now the Wizard has a New BBEG for an Enemy. Now what if there are 3 Simulacrum Dragons in the Lair with Contingency Spells or the Dragon was Hidden/Disguised and the Simulacrum was Attacked. These are all very simple and very basic things.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-25, 11:02 PM
Emperor Tippy, does your CR 20 wizard run around without any items? Mine doesn't. I seriously doubt that ANY dragon is going to be naked, as it were, and attack someone.
RAW you are expected to have items with a total value equal to the WBL. CR's expect it. The monster CRs also fail to account for any items that the DM may give the monster, a wrym black dragon is supposed to be a CR 20 encounter when it has no items and is randomly encountered in a field somewhere.


The way I see it, is that a creature that is assigned equipment and abilities have those abilities and equipment factored into it. Otherwise, all the CRs are off if the creature has any excess equipment. A dragon has a hoard. Think of it as its Value in the starting gear section. Any dragon that just looks at his money and doesn't use it to keep him/herself alive, is, well, a dragon played by a poor DM.
A dragon can use its hoard for items, it just throws off the CR and it is not a CR 20 encounter anymore. And dragons like shiny things so they don't spend their hoards.


My point is, that the name of the game is Dungeons and Dragons, not Dungeons and Wizards. You seem to be forgetting that Dragons at that level also cast spells. Anything you can do, it can probabily do better. Now, you are delayed because the dragon has his Anticipate Teleportation up and running. He has either teleported away, or set up his own timestop. Now, he directs his disjunction at you, and you die.
So does the wizard get the spell compendium and other books or are we going core only? And frankly, the dragons casting doesn't matter at all.


Now, looking at it as a random encounter. Oh, wait, a CR 20 dragon won't be a random encounter. I promise. Any DM won't do it. Why? Because a CR 20 dragon is not going to swoop down on a wandering wizard without cause, for one. The biggest one, at least IMO, is that Dragons are NOT random encounters for any DM worth his salt...unless he has specifically warned you that there be dragons about...and then it still isn't random because the DM would have been prepared.
None of this matters at all.


I mean no offense, I really don't, but it seems like you are forgetting that a dragon is smarter naturally than your wizard and should be prepared for it.
A Wrym black dragon has 18 Int. My level 20 wizard has 36 Int. I am twice as smart as the dragon. And IF I go Elan I can even be older than the dragon with no problem.

Oh and a Black Wrym casts as a 13th level sorcerer, it doesn't even get 7th level spells.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-25, 11:05 PM
I don't think a DM would be out of line ruling the Greater Teleport Fails in this particular scenario as it really Constitutes an Attack Teleporting to a Creature to Deliver a Touch Attack which is Prohibited as per the Spell Text description Magical Attacks on Creatures.

A simple Contingency spell with (Teleport) would negate the Touch Attack and Now the Wizard has a New BBEG for an Enemy.
*GRRR*. The OP wanted to know how to solo a CR 20 dragon with a ECL 20 wizard, per RAW,. I told him how. Stop with the housrules people. Get over it. Dragons aren't that hard, even if you don't cheese.

And you never attack the dragon while under the affect of Timestop. Not to mention the fact that you can disable any contingencies or the like wit ha simple quickened disjunction in the readied action.

kpenguin
2007-04-25, 11:07 PM
Alright then, can anyone build a CR 20 dragon that can challenge a wizard of equal level? Add anything you want, class levels, templates, etc.

Rules:
a. try not to get too cheesy. You know what I mean. No celerity or intiate of the sevenfold veil or such.
b. the dragon gets equipment equivalent of an NPC of the same level
c. no "the dragon wins because the DM said so"
d. no "this is an impossible challenge because wizards are horribly, horribly broken

Rainspattered
2007-04-25, 11:14 PM
Dragons are a race. Races can take class levels. People tend to forget this when making dragons. Yes, it makes them harder to kill. Still, the idea that they have, essentially, learned nothing in centuries of life beyond breathing on stuff is laughable. Traps are a very valid idea, too, especially on evil dragons.
Then again, this is the place that just decided all dragons of one colour are the same. Yeah, you know what. They probably don't have traps or ever learn anything besides breathing. I mean, it's as realistic as a species being entirely the same alignment to assume the entire incredibly intelligent race is totally inept beyond belief.

Aquillion
2007-04-25, 11:18 PM
Emperor Tippy, does your CR 20 wizard run around without any items? Mine doesn't. I seriously doubt that ANY dragon is going to be naked, as it were, and attack someone.You're applying logic from players to monsters.

The CR listed for a dragon is for a lone, unequipped dragon, with no equipment, lair, or any other special resources to draw on. A dragon with CR 20 is set up so that an unoptimized party of players can beat one without too much effort, using 20% of their resources. Keep that in mind. Challenge Rating is a system designed to ensure that encounters are winnable for players. Not 'fifty-fifty' (because if challenges were fifty-fifty, players would never get anywhere), but heavily, heavily weighted in the players' favor.

Now, naturally one character might have slightly more difficulities against something balanced for an entire four-person party of the same level to beat easily... but you seem to be under the misconception, somehow, that CR 20 means that it's supposed to be an adventure for a player. It isn't. It's one element of an adventure, and while the plot might say that those CR 18 traps and CR 17 minions the party overcame on their way in were there because the dragon payed them, mechanics-wise they're seperate challenges, part of a campaign with a solid lump of CR 20 dragon at the end of it.

A dragon, in its lair, with defenses and minions and preperation and the difficulity a player has in finding it, is an entire campaign, with numerous challenges inside of it. The question isn't "can a wizard resolve a major campaign with a CR20 dragon at the end of it", the question is whether the wizard can beat a CR20 dragon in an outright fight.

...now, it's perfectly fair, of course, for the DM to say "You can't just find a CR 20 dragon and kill it just like that. What are you doing, taking out a classified? You're going to have to go on a campaign and overcome successive challenges to reach and defeat it." That's because D&D is a game, not a hypothetical challenge; if the players want to kill a dragon, a good DM will give them a campaign where they get to kill a dragon. Your Bard makes a gather information check, the party hears rumors of a fearful dragon that has terrorized a village to the south, etc, etc.

This, though, is a hypothetical challenge, so none of that matters.

Takamari
2007-04-25, 11:24 PM
I give up. I do. You are saying that the biggest and baddest creature in the game is a poon. I know what the OP asked. The only way you can win is by cheating. Yes, you may be playing by the RAW, but it is still cheating. Can you come up with anything besides shivering touch or time stops?

Seriously, that takes a lot of imagination. This is so frustrating. Any game master that lets you get away with that is a bad game master.

What is Elan, anyway? I've seen several posts mentioning that. It doesn't matter anyway. And no, the dragons spell casting isn't pointless. Contingency+teleport. You are failing to account for whatever the dragon may have. You think its just going to sit there and let you kill it?

That and you are not looking at equivalent levels. Can someone calculate what CR a level 20 wizard with full equipment would be? I'm betting it is much higher than 20.

But I'm going to just give in. I dont' see the point in arguing anymore. I see your point, but you dont' seem to accept that ANYONE has a valid point.

MeklorIlavator
2007-04-25, 11:36 PM
What is Elan, anyway? I've seen several posts mentioning that. It doesn't matter anyway. And no, the dragons spell casting isn't pointless. Contingency+teleport. You are failing to account for whatever the dragon may have. You think its just going to sit there and let you kill it?
Elan is a race that has no age limit, in the XPH(which is SRD). And, yes dragon spellcasting is pointless, because it is so delayed that the offensive power of its spells are laughable. Compare the level 6 spells(what a CR 20 dragon has) to level 9 spells. Level 9 looks better for the most part, besides cheese-tastic stuff like contingency and celerity.

I don't think its going to let me just kill it while it sits watching. It is going to let me kill it because by the time its turn comes around, its is dead. See, Timestop lets you get a couple of consecutive rounds, which you use to cast damaging spells like delayed blast fireball. After timestop ends, Dragon dies because it takes more damage that its hit points. And it doesn't see you coming because you have superior invis., or spells similar to it.



That and you are not looking at equivalent levels. Can someone calculate what CR a level 20 wizard with full equipment would be? I'm betting it is much higher than 20.

Thats the point. The game isn't between equal parties of good and bad. Its about the Good Guys creaming the slightly weaker Bad guys. PC>NPC.

Ulzgoroth
2007-04-25, 11:41 PM
CR 20 is hardly the biggest, baddest creature in the game. And a L20 wizard with appropriate equipment is most assuredly CR 20 according to the rules, though if an NPC wizard takes you on the same way as the dragon is getting it, you may be dead before you realize anything is happening. Because level 20 wizards played like this aren't quite the power level the game thinks they are, see?

Entries in the Monster Manual don't come with implied equipment. The CR they give is for the creature presented, not the creature presented plus magical equipment costing the WBL of a PC of it's CR. It's perfectly reasonable to say that dragons shouldn't be encountered in that state, even in their own lairs, but giving it equipment does make it a different encounter.

I can't speak to the contingency, though I wonder exactly what condition you're setting...does the dragon teleport out of it's lair every time someone else teleports in?

Aquillion
2007-04-25, 11:42 PM
I give up. I do. You are saying that the biggest and baddest creature in the game is a poon. I know what the OP asked. The only way you can win is by cheating. Yes, you may be playing by the RAW, but it is still cheating. Can you come up with anything besides shivering touch or time stops?

...

Seriously, that takes a lot of imagination. This is so frustrating. Any game master that lets you get away with that is a bad game master.It's just a theoretical exercize; the point is that the whole thing would never happen in an actual game. Players can't generally sit up, declare "I'm going to fight a lone monster of type X today!", and have a clean and straightforward encounter with no other effort or complications. They can hunt down a monster of that type if they put in some effort, sometimes, but in any good dragon-slaying campaign, the dragon is just going to be the finishing touch, not the actual adventure.

And nobody seriously thinks that dragons are 'the biggest, baddest creature in the game.' They're just... not. Not by a long shot. They have a big lump of HP (which just lets you be weak for a longer period of time), spellcasting generally a whopping 7 levels behind what a challenge-equivilent party will have, and a breath weapon that isn't really going to help them. They can do a lot of damage at close range, but so what? So can a fighter. The only really good thing they have is flying, and players have lots of ways to get around that.

Jade_Tarem
2007-04-25, 11:51 PM
People still aren't connecting.

There was a challenge put forth by the OP. The challenge was this:

"Show me how a level 20 wizard can solo a wyrm black dragon for money."

The challenge was not:

"Try to prove that a wizard can't do that."

A whole bunch of people, for some reason, decided to attempt the second one, and are now unpleasantly surprised by the fact that it doesn't take a whole lot of innovation or thought to create a combonation that makes any reasonable defense the dragon has in place irrelevant. Then they tried to argue that any CR 20 dragon would have with it a ton of magic items and traps and would be completely optimized (and would have absolute knowledge of the wizard's spells known and gear) - all of which raises it's CR. E. Tippy's response was simply that any dragon loaded with extra gear and minions wasn't CR 20 and that the wizard didn't have to kill that particular dragon anyhow - all he has to do is find a generic one. Then these people got mad, all because E. Tippy answered the OP's question - first using all splatbooks, and then using core only to avoid the use of Shivering Touch. Now people are suggesting that the wizard is supposed to fight stupid or something.

Obviously, if your DM isn't going to let you do it, you can't do it. That wasn't factored into the OP's question. All the OP wanted to know was how a wizard could solo a dragon for money - and he had a right to ask, since Tippy and BWL bring this argument up to show how high level wizards aquire easy cash frequently and often. Now, however, the question has been answered, and so have many others.

Grey Paladin
2007-04-25, 11:54 PM
The biggest baddest "creature" in the game is a well played wizard.

Jade_Tarem
2007-04-25, 11:57 PM
Actually, I do believe the biggest, baddest creature in the game is Ao.

Takamari
2007-04-25, 11:58 PM
Point Made.

Demented
2007-04-26, 12:01 AM
Unfortunately, Walls and Wizards wasn't as popular a name for an RPG.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-04-26, 12:31 AM
People still aren't connecting.

There was a challenge put forth by the OP. The challenge was this:

"Show me how a level 20 wizard can solo a wyrm black dragon for money."

The challenge was not:

"Try to prove that a wizard can't do that."

A whole bunch of people, for some reason, decided to attempt the second one, and are now unpleasantly surprised by the fact that it doesn't take a whole lot of innovation or thought to create a combonation that makes any reasonable defense the dragon has in place irrelevant. Then they tried to argue that any CR 20 dragon would have with it a ton of magic items and traps and would be completely optimized (and would have absolute knowledge of the wizard's spells known and gear) - all of which raises it's CR. E. Tippy's response was simply that any dragon loaded with extra gear and minions wasn't CR 20 and that the wizard didn't have to kill that particular dragon anyhow - all he has to do is find a generic one. Then these people got mad, all because E. Tippy answered the OP's question - first using all splatbooks, and then using core only to avoid the use of Shivering Touch. Now people are suggesting that the wizard is supposed to fight stupid or something.

Obviously, if your DM isn't going to let you do it, you can't do it. That wasn't factored into the OP's question. All the OP wanted to know was how a wizard could solo a dragon for money - and he had a right to ask, since Tippy and BWL bring this argument up to show how high level wizards aquire easy cash frequently and often. Now, however, the question has been answered, and so have many others.

That as many people responded to how poorly this would work in a normal campaign should be a Real Flag to aspriring solo wizard dragon slayers.


I missed the Dragon Defenses and Precautions don't work part of the thread you are referring to.

We're not saying a Wizard couldn't Kill a poorly DMed Dragon. We're just saying it's generally not a good ideal in a campaign to go targeting dragons just to take their hoards. It shouldn't be a Cakewalk, Things might not go as planned for the wizard with a Good DM and their might be consequences in game.

Limited Wish will make you 1,500 GP in gold and more if you Empower or Maximize the spell for the same experience point cost. The PC can Kill lots of things to regain lost experience.

A wizard 20 is a CR20 encounter with 760,000 GP Hoard of Treasure usually magical. Just because Black Dragons like Coins there is No Reason the Dragon should not have some beneficial magic itmes in his hoard which the wizard was specifically going to Steal in His Lair Not outside wandering around. Both examples are of Dragons 1,000+ years old. They didn't get that way by doing Nothing to protect themselves for the first wanna be dragon killer wizard to off them.

There are plenty of creatures a PC can Kill pretty easily in the game particularly when the DM doesn' utilize the Creature abilities. Personally I don't believe taking the Hoard of an Ancient Wyrm or Great Wyrm Dragon should be a Cakewalk IMO it is more of a Ending Campaign Adventure. It should be memorable. There are plenty of DMs who would not allow that scenario to play out as the player said it would just by reviewing and interpreting the basic rules before the Dragon took some of the most minimal precautions.

Personally I found this to be a Very Poor Example of how a PC Wizard would Kill a Dragon Wyrm or Great Wyrm in the game with a Solo wizard just taking a half hour and utilizing some of the most basic abilities and resources available to the dragon along with reasons why this particular attempt to kill the dragon would fail normally and the wizard would die.

Jack Mann
2007-04-26, 12:35 AM
Indeed. How many ranks does your average wizard have in knowledge(draconic lore)?
That would be knowledge (arcana), so it would be max ranks for most wizards.

Eldritch_Ent
2007-04-26, 01:01 AM
This is mostly a conflict of different DM styles- some want Dragons to be just another monster, and some want dragons to be evil masterminds.

Also, a CR 20 dragon doesn't HAVE to be thousands of years old, it could just be a wyrmling that's taken a dozen or more levels of fighter or something. :P

Also, I suspect [Knowledge: Dragon Lore] would relate to things like dragon holidays and table manners. Definitely something a nerdy dragon (AKA a Bookwyrm) might max, but a wizard might be better off Maxing his ranks in [Knowledge: Monstrous Reptiles] Or something. I'm sure there's a skill for it.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-04-26, 01:06 AM
*GRRR*. The OP wanted to know how to solo a CR 20 dragon with a ECL 20 wizard, per RAW,. I told him how. Stop with the housrules people. Get over it. Dragons aren't that hard, even if you don't cheese.

And you never attack the dragon while under the affect of Timestop. Not to mention the fact that you can disable any contingencies or the like wit ha simple quickened disjunction in the readied action.

The OP wanted to Know how to Solo a Dragon and judging by the responses most people felt your method would not work for various reasons and is something to consider. Just saying the dragon is only a mere genius, wouldn't have useful magic items I have a 36 Int Level 20 Wizard the dragon wouldn't have defenses and whatever defenses it did have in place are ineffective just doesn't cut it in most games.

Most Player's don't use MDJ because it destroys treasure which was the purpose of this dragon expedition as I recall Killing the Dragon to Steal it's Treasure.

If you really want Treasure it is a Lot Easier and Safer to just go Kill Off Some CR 20 NPCs and Take Theirs for Much Less Risk in combat.

***Here's a question for you: Say the Dragon had cast a Preexisting Teleport Contingency if an unknown creature larger than a rabbit teleported or entered inside it's lair (Because of it's Draconic Aura Effect this should be a very rare event). Why would your spells go off and take effect on the dragon before it's preexisting conditional spell effect already cast in previous rounds and already functioning in effect Teleported it to safety?

I think you should reread the Timestop Spell Description like I did for this thread.

The PC can not Target the Creature the Dragon with a Spell while Timestopped it is IMMUNE to Creature Targeted Spells by the Timestop spell description but NOT AREA Effect Spells.

Casting Teleport without Error to Take you to a Specific Creature while Timestopped in this example is Specifically Targeting that Creature IMO and would Fail by the stated wording. That's not a house rule it's what the PC wizard was posted as doing.

Casting Timestop to Take you to a Specific Place probably Wouldn't it would depend on the campaign and the wording. That is Key IMO. A Dragon's Lair is Huge.

The same goes for the Second and Thirds spells which you amended later in the thread attack sequence to repeated Area Effect DFBs. That is the kind of mistake that gets PCs Killed in game going alone without backup (Of course then MDJ is an Option destroying valuable Magical Items).

IMO it's Questionable whether MDJ cast while Timestopped would negate the TimeStop Spell Effect (Is the Wizard Touching or Carrying the TimeStop Effect I think not but as long as it works Consistently in Games I'm Happy).

A simple Contingency Teleport will still save the Dragon and luckily the PC wizard in this case.

You never mentioned how you located the dragon or your defenses in place in case the wizard was attacked by the dragon if your attack failed which it appears the first attack sequence clearly would have since he would have been forced to attack without any defenses in place.

One of my points is that your example completely negates any self defense by the Base 18/20+ 1,000+ year Old Dragon Genius in it's Lair. Second your Wizard shouldn't Know what all the dragon defenses are which is why I use the example of another good role player playing the dragon as an in game reality check per se.

There is a big difference between attacking a wandering monster who would still have some useful magic on it IMO just like the wizard doesn't leave all his treasure at home and one like the dragon in it's lair and expecting it to have No or Ineffective Defenses just because you are a Int 36 Wizard and want to take it's treasure.

The wizard PC is attacking the dragon it in it's lair to gain it's useful treasure. By Raw it has Useful Treasure just like your CR 20 Level 20 Wizard.

It is only common sense for most of that treasure to be usable to the Dragon with a Genius Intelligence who would prefer Useful Shiny Pretty over Plain Pretty just like your PC wizard likes useful magic and treasure.

Jack Mann
2007-04-26, 01:07 AM
Like I said, knowledge (arcana). If it's possible for you to know it, and it pertains to dragons, that's the skill you have to roll.

Ulzgoroth
2007-04-26, 01:23 AM
Greater Teleport isn't cast targeting the dragon. In any sense. You can't teleport to a creature, anyway, as the spell takes you to a location.

The New Bruceski
2007-04-26, 01:32 AM
Looks to me like it's been successfully shown that a level 20 wizard can successfully kill a retarded CR 20 dragon before the dragon can bring any items to bear. That's all the wizard needs to do for this hypothetical; find and kill an unguarded CR 20 Wyrm black dragon. It's up to the DM if one of these exists.

That said, after checking the space (20 feet) of a Gargantuan Wyrm, and the area (10-foot radius) of Antimagic Field, I see no reason for any non-retarded dragon not to obtain some item that constantly generates this. Make it supressable with some command word just in case a George makes it to you somehow. You are now mage-proof. Oh sure, there are ways around it, but the mage has lost the tempo, and any dragon who has lived to 1,000 years should be ready to act as soon as the field falls. The dragon also has the advantage of not assuming he's got an unstoppale trick.

Thexare Blademoon
2007-04-26, 01:42 AM
The only way you can win is by cheating. Yes, you may be playing by the RAW, but it is still cheating. Where the hell did you get your dictionary? :smallconfused:

Inyssius Tor
2007-04-26, 01:43 AM
Bruceski: Indeed it has been shown. Why has this been shown? Because that was the original question.

Takamari: Say what? Playing by the rules is called cheating now?

CASTLEMIKE: I'm sorry, but it's really hard to read your posts. If you care about readability, could you please restrict your capitalization to proper nouns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noun#Proper_nouns_and_common_nouns) and the first letter of every sentence? Use and for emphasis, if you really feel that it's necessary.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-04-26, 01:59 AM
Easiest CURE RULES way to kill a dragon:

Greater Metamagic Rod of Maximize

Quickened Enervation. Maximized Time Stop

Maximize DBF
Maximize DBF
DBF
DBF
DBF

KABOOOOOOM!!! That's 60d6 + 240 Eat it.

This takes no scrolls, as he can use 7th and 8th level slots to prepare DBF in. If he takes a level of Archmage for Mastery of Elements, it doesn't matter what flavor the damage is, so long as it's a type that affects the Dragon.

L20 wizard will laugh at SR... he's got PLENTY of ways to make it pointless. Even if he does manage to SR one of them, that's still WAY more HPS than he has, and the dragon is going to have to make a save or die from massive damage (granted, Fort save, so almost certainly going to make the save). Dragon is NOT going to make a Reflex save with the DC's a wizard is able to crank out. Specially not after Enervation.

And this is just Core.

If we want to go into supplemental books...

Shivering Touch has already been covered. Won't go into that again.

Twin Ray Empowered Enervation. 2d4*1.5 negative levels. That's anywhere from 3 to 12 levels. Nail the dragon with something like Slow to keep him from ruining your day, make sure you've got Overland Flight to outrun him if necessary, and you can pound at him with these until he falls over. 3-12 of these later, it falls over dead because it has more negative levels than it has HD. Fortunately, you won't need to worry about that. Long before he dies from negative levels, his Fort save will be lowered enough to nail him with Finger of Death, as each negative level gives a -1 to all saves. Since a Wyrm Black Dragon (DC 20) has a Fort save of 26, you're likely wanting to drop that under 10, so that's 16 negative levels. On average, that's TWO of these babies. Heck, if you roll lucky, you could drop his Fort save to a measly +2 in two shots.

So grab a Greater Rod of Quicken. Quicken Twin Ray Empowered Enervation followed up by Twin Ray Empowered Enervation. Contingency Celerity upon my being the target of an attack or negative effect. Dragon tries to counter with something, contingency goes off, I use Time Stop. This gives me at LEAST one round to do fun things in. Solid Fog around the Dragon tends to work to slow him down, doesn't allow SR either, and is an area effect with a duration rather than a targeted effect so I can pull it off. If I've got another round, I use a full round action to move away from him, out to the maximum range of my Enervation, and am grateful I hit myself with True Sight earlier so he won't get concealment against me. If I rolled well on my Twin Ray Empowered Enervations, I'll just drop a Quickened Slow as insurance then Finger of Death. If I rolled poorly, Quickened Twin Ray Empowered Enervation then Slow. On the following round, Dragon really can't reach me, and I Finger of Death it down, since it's saves are likely well below +10 now, there's no way he can make the save. It fails the save, I win.

This is less cheezy than Shivering Touch, although it does take advantage of the Contingency Celerity Time Stop cheeze.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-04-26, 02:20 AM
I'm not saying a level 20 wizard couldn't kill an ancient dragon wyrm genius but I had some great DMs in the past and know it shouldn't be an easy cake walk.

Why do so many of the posts seem to assume that the PC wizard gets to surprise the genius dragon sorcerer 14+ completely defenseless in his lair?

Simple things:

The dragon could have had Forbiddence cast in his lair making teleport ineffective:

PC - I teleport in. DM - No you don't.

The Dragon could trick the wizard with a substitution like a Simulacrum or two or three and be disguised or hidden possibly in a Rope Trick over one of the Simulacrum or a Permanent Image with backup Programmed Images keyed by hand gestures.

What simple precautions do your PCs take to prevent magical surprise attacks against their PCs?

What kind of actions does the PC wizard take if his attack apparently succedes or fails like the dragon apparently teleporting away?

What if the dragon triggers an anti magic shell spell or effect after the wizard thought he killed the dragon or caused it to flee to safety?

This isn't a mindless monster encounter and there is so much that a genius sorcerer 14+ dragon could implement. That is part of the challenge overcoming the unknown defenses.

I don't think that you can use Enervation while Timestopped since it would be targeting the dragon with a spell effect which it is immune to by the Timestop description since it only affects a single creature.

Don't forget all those DBFs will destroy most of the treasure and melt most of the coins one of the reasons the dragon was being targeted as per the OP in the first place.

A few choice DM comments regarding the destroyed treasure items and the much smaller haul than normal will generally moderate that kind of spellcasting or the PCs will have less treasure than normal. DM - Yes it was a CR20 encounter but your PC(s) destroyed most of the treasure to bad about the rings of Wish and Wizardry.

Jade_Tarem
2007-04-26, 02:32 AM
Why do so many of the posts seem to assume that the PC wizard gets to surprise the genius dragon sorcerer defenseless in his lair?

The dragon could have had Forbiddence cast in his lair making teleport ineffective.

What simple precautions do your PCs take to prevent these kind of surprise attacks?

Why wouldn't the genius dragon implement some of them as a genius CR20 monster?

I don't think that you can use Enervation while Timestopped since it would be targeting the dragon wioth a spell effect which it is immune to by the Timestop description since it only affects a single creature.

The wizard doesn't need enervation, although you are correct that it can't be cast during timestop.

The black dragon can't cast Forbiddance, and even if it was cast for him, it's a fairly simple matter to dispel it.

The dragon is smart, but as Tippy pointed out, his INT is nothing compared to the wizard's. The irritating thing about wizards is that there are ways around most if not all static defenses. And as has been said before multiple times, (go back and read the previous posts - all of them, not just parts of a couple of them) including a bunch of powerful traps and guardians is not part of the CR 20 - no matter how logical it might be. Here's the kicker - for all of that, the wizard can still take the dragon down. Most anything the dragon can do, the wizard can do better.

The Simulacrum/Rope trick thing is clever (except for the part where the dragon fits in the rope trick entrance) but remember that the goal is the treasure, not the dragon's head. A simulacrum (which, by the way, is an 8th level spell and is thus also impossible for the dragon to cast) would be even easier to kill.

The PC's defenses against this kind of attack usually comes in the form of Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion. They're more or less completely immune to being attacked in their sleep once the wizard can cast that. And before you say it, no, a Wyrm Black Dragon can't cast that spell either.

The "genius" black dragon doesn't implement those kinds of defenses because he can't. They're all outside of the limits of his casting ability. This is why the wizard wins - because 9th level spells beat 6th level spells.

If nothing else - if he absolutely has to - the wizard can just quickened disjunction the area before he goes in and raises hell. Boom. All magical defenses have been shut down. The reaping begins. Thanks for playing.

Edit: Oh, and the guy talking about enervation was saying that you cast it before the timestop goes off.

Vyker
2007-04-26, 02:42 AM
Castle, you're missing the premise of the opening question.

It's the wizard vs. the dragon. Not the wizard vs. the dragon plus his private army, personal wizard cabal, cult (redshirt expendables and clerics? That's a two for the price of one deal!), and Bond-Villian Fortress of Doom.

Just... the dragon. As is.

If you really, really, really need fluff justification for what is purely an mathematical application of game mechanics, here's a few:

- The dragon is out hunting for food. Annoying wizard ambushes.

- The dragon is surveying his territory. Some of them are more famous than others for that (reds, in particular).

- The dragon is occupied with other things.

- The dragon is new to the area and hasn't set up a decent "pad" to "kick it" in with his "crew." The cave where he's keeping his stuff is okay, but it's certainly not suitable for anything long-term.

- The dragon just went through a painful divorce and now must stay one hundred miles from the defendent, plus he lost the house and kids and he's tried to rebuild but his heart really isn't in it, and really, he just wants to sleep for a while and not care about anything, maybe a keg or five of some of that dwarven ale would hit the spot, yeah, and maybe a puppy, the fuzzy kind that'll just love him and wag his tail and play with a ball and be so cute and hey s'more o' that ale might be a good idea...

Dragonslaying is a staple of the genre. It's been depicted in a lot of different ways by a lot of different people. The funny thing is, a lot of those times, sooner or later someone succeeds.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-04-26, 03:24 AM
It's fun to kill a dragon or high level monster. IMO it's more fun to kill a well played dragon or high level monster.

The OP wanted to know two things:

First why another poster was always posting that wizard PCs didn't need money because they could go out solo killing dragons for their treasure whenever they need some spending money.

Second how does he do that solo killing dragon thing.

I agree a well played wizard 20 could probably overcome a well played dragon with work as I haved posted several times on this thread.

I disagree that it should be a single round or two cake walk because this is a high level genius level intelligence encounter to many people seem to want to over simplify what should be a challenging encounter from something that should be a suitable CR 20 encounter for a level 20 party. It shouldn't get easier just because the wizard PC wants to do it by himself as a single caster so I take issue with the methods I have seen so far on this thread presuming a dragon sorcerer genius in his lair is defenseless simply because he is being attacked by a high level wizard choosing to blithely invade his lair. In fact this is one of the few situations I think a DM has the right to go all out no holds barred against the PC.

Both posters were not aware of the Timestop spell limitations in their posts casting spells that would be ineffective until it was pointed out. The middle of a well played encounter would probably be to late to survive unless the DM let them escape IMO. Neither poster mentioned the precautions the wizard was taking if the dragon survived the first round so in most games that would mean none.

There is some gray area in the interpretation of the Timestop spell and campaign effects. Personally as long as magic works consistently in a campaign I'm content and can work with it. IMO the PCs do not exist in campaign vaccuums. If PCs are always killing BBEGs the same way Timestop + then the BBEGs adopt those same tactics against the PCs not much fun if the PC loses initiative or fails that first round attack sequence.

Even average and below average intelligence high level barbarians know wizards commonly use Timestop to kill opponents with magic in some form.

The dragon is a 1,000 year old sorcerer 14+ since he is a CR20 monster as per this thread (If the dragon was a CR19 encounter he would only be a level 13 sorcerer but with dragon rituals or taking a level of augmented sorcerer +1 to make the dragon a CR20 for the purposes of this thread the dragon should have access to level 7 or 8 spells for the ancient wyrm).

I believe and no one has posted why the dragon wouldn't be protected by a simple Teleport Contingency and other simple spells and tricks available to the dragon when every other monster gets to use their treasure.

If a PC can purchase spell casting in town a dragon with centuries on his hand can certainly find an evil cleric to do the same for his or her lair to defend against these kind of cheesy attacks. Quite a bit more challenging to kill a dragon if you can't just surprise Teleport in Timestop and kill it.

Does anyone really have an issue with an orc or a kobold using the magic treasure weapon they have in their possession? This is a level 20 encounter with a genius+ sorcerer dragon why would anyone have a problem with the dragon intelligently using treasure from his hoard at this level of encounter?

A CR 20 dragon has treasure that is why the wizard in this thread is going to kill. Maybe he has a 6 wisdom to think the dragon will be defenseless and will not be using any of his treasure to defend himself or his lair.

That premsise doesn't make sense to me in a game context and it is why I and others took exceptions to some of the posts.

Finding the dragon and his lair should be possible with the right spells (the wizard's own or purchased spellcasting moderated by the dragon defenses) or research. What spells does the wizard have? What spells does the dragon have? That could make it require a bit more effort especially if the dragon at that level has a Mind Blank item of some sort although the Great Wyrm could know that spell.

Finally most of the dragon slaying posts have the wizard destroying most of the dragon's treasure the original reason the wizard was going out to kill the dragon in the first place to get the money and treasure which doesn't track as the actions of a 36 intelligence wizard IMO.

Say the dragon has a Greenstone Amulet which makes it harder much harder for the wizard to find him when the PC eventually wins the encounter in my scenario he gets a Greenstone Amulet which is basically a permanent Mindblank magic item freeing up a high level spell slot and other useful magic items and treasure for a high level character probably slated towards arcane casters plus a pretty secure backup hideout or emergency retreat.

Using MDJ the wizard gets a formerly enchanted piece of jade, some master work jewelry, a little coin and a possibly useful formerly enchanted lair/stronghold.

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-26, 04:20 AM
Ok, first of all, @ Beardtrix: thanks for defining words for me. The point is, the DM is supposed to play the antagonists vis-a-vis the CHARACTERS. Getting into this dragon/wizard one-upsmanship puts you in a situation of players-vs-DM which is never good. That's what I meant.

Let me stress this again: a CR 20 dragon that has been optimized to be un-beatable by a level 20 wizard will be just as unbeatable for a level 20 party. The rationale that "this superintelligent beast would have prepared for that" applies just as much to full-attack-charging fighters, CoDzilla, etc. Arguing that the dragon has warded himself fully against any and all wizard tactics, but somehow forgot about melee combat, just doesn't make sense. The dragon is either perfectly prepared, or else he isn't, and the wizard will win.

Can the DM create a monster the party can't beat? Of course! The point is, if the beast is beatable by a party, the wizard will be able to solo it, pretty much. Should this be happening in every game? NO! The whole reason this argument even got started was in a situation where a poster was arguing that wizards weren't that powerful because the DM could make all material components prohibitively expensive.

Sir Giacomo
2007-04-26, 04:39 AM
OK guys,

those who know my posts obsessed with highlighting casters weaknesses in core (and beyond) may be a bit surprised, but I have to jump to Emperor Tippy's and Jade Tarem's defense here.

A CR 20 encounter IS no challenge to a wizard of level 20. Period. Dragon or not. A whole 4-member-group just uses up 20% of their resources, but most truly optimised characters of lvl 20 making full use of their equipment can just beat about everything in the game of the CR level fairly safely. And I said characters (core), not only wizards.
- Sorcerer: as per wizard
- CoDzilla: no comment here. Plus Stellar Holy/Unholy word or gate, shapechange. Nuff said.
- Paladin: smite, flying mount etc. (they are the proverbial shining knights to kill dragons. And they can do it probably head-on at lvl 20)
- Ranger: Favoured enemy dragon, archery, equipment. A contingency windfall could help, though. If the dragon is in flight, though, the wind wall does not help much since it is static.
- Monk- possibly with the least chances, but not that bad either...abundant step in (or sneak up with maxed hide/move silently), stunning fist and quivering palm at Fort DC 33+ in the same hit, quite a threat.
- Rogue - full attack sneaks, or simply UMD: Timestop scroll chain etc. Or just cast gate as well
- Barbarian...OK, maybe a bit tougher here (since it's a very melee damage focussed character, the part where the dragon truly shines). Although could also be quite an effective raging archer...
- Fighter: Archery Feats galore, equipment. In case of contingency windwall on static dragon in lair, use teleport equipment and melee (same problems as barbarian).
- Bard: bluff, bluff, bluff, bluff the stupid dragon...OK, maybe a bit hard...the rogue UMD trick to copy the wizard combo is always available...although a nice stellar diplomacy skill boosted by greater heroism to 60+ could go some way to make the most distrustful hostile dragon a loyal friend, which in a way surpasses any other defeat method by the other characters :smallcool:

Now, many other posters have rightly added a second dimension to the pure mechanical aspect: the campaign logic.
If dragons are so easily killed by high-level characters (and npcs may do the same trick, in particular the casters who could get along with less npc equipment), why aren't all monsters of that level already dead?
Well...it is the balance of power in the campaign. Some dragons may be allied with even bigger ones (or get tacit support. Chaotic evil dragons may not help their kin per se, but they certainly resent the hoards taken by the pcs, and not by them).
Mostly, the high-level npcs have conflicting interests. So that black dragon soloed by a caster may have been a key part of the invading force of a lvl 20 evil npc wizard who is now out for revenge vs the pc. Etc.

Overall it boils down to: yes, lvl 20 pcs can solo CR 20 dragons, most without big problems. The question is: should they really do it? Sometimes, maybe. Most of the time not. And definitely not several times in a row, lest they draw unwanted attention and enmity.

- Giacomo

EDIT: since casters also have great possibilities to research with magic, they are certainly ahead of non-casters in that aspect

Inyssius Tor
2007-04-26, 04:43 AM
EDIT: Giacomo, you are completely right and I really don't want to continue the argument after a conclusion like that. Oh well...


I disagree that it should be a single round or two cake walk because this is a high level genius level intelligence encounter to many people seem to want to over simplify what should be a challenging encounter from something that should be a suitable CR 20 encounter for a level 20 party. It shouldn't get easier just because the wizard PC wants to do it by himself as a single caster so I take issue with the methods I have seen so far on this thread presuming a dragon sorcerer genius in his lair is defenseless simply because he is being attacked by a high level wizard choosing to blithely invade his lair.
"High level genius encounter"? That may be, but the wizard happens to be exactly twice as incredibly brilliant as the dragon.
...and just what would your "dragon sorcerer genius" do?


Both posters were not aware of the Timestop spell limitations in their posts casting spells that would be ineffective until it was pointed out. The middle of a well played encounter would probably be to late to survive unless the DM let them escape IMO. Neither poster mentioned the precautions the wizard was taking if the dragon survived the first round so in most games that would mean none. What are you talking about? Name one thing that your "both posters" have said that is rendered impossible due to the limitations of time stop.
How is this dragon going to survive the first round?


There is some gray area in the interpretation of the Timestop spell and campaign effects. Personally as long as magic works consistently in a campaign I'm content and can work with it. IMO the PCs do not exist in campaign vaccuums. If PCs are always killing BBEGs the same way Timestop + then the BBEGs adopt those same tactics against the PCs not much fun if the PC loses initiative or fails that first round attack sequence. What grey area? Are we going to be treated to another houserule (because houserules are so incredibly relevant)?
The dragon is a 1,000 year old sorcerer 14+ since he is a CR20 monster as per this thread (If the dragon was a CR19 encounter he would only be a level 13 sorcerer but with dragon rituals or taking a level of augmented sorcerer +1 to make the dragon a CR20 for the purposes of this thread the dragon should have access to level 7 or 8 spells for the ancient wyrm).He is a CR 20 wyrm dragon, yes? That means he is either: a wyrm black dragon (CR 20, CL 13) or a wyrm white dragon with one level of Sorcerer (CR 20, CL 12). If you want him to be ancient, he could be: black with one Sorc. level (CR 20, CL 12), or white with two Sorc. levels (CR 20, CL 11). Notice any similarities? I'll give you a hint: none of them can cast 7th-level spells.


I believe and no one has posted why the dragon wouldn't be protected by a simple Teleport Contingency and other simple spells and tricks available to the dragon when every other monster gets to use their treasure.
See, the thing is: if the dragon leaves (say, via teleport), the wizard has won. He can box up his shiny new hoard and mail it back to his Magnificent Mansion.

As for the rest of your post:
The dragons in the Monster Manual are CR 20 as is. Is it unrealistic for a dragon to take no precautions? Maybe. (Is it kind of ridiculous to talk about the realism of dragons? Yes.) It's simply irrelevant. If you change the encounter from "dragon" to "dragon surrounded by minions and traps" or "dragon and his epic-level cleric-of-Cthulhu buddy", you are changing the CR.

As an irrelevant side-note: dragons, no matter how smart, are very attached to their hoard. Take Smaug, for example. He was one of the greatest dragons in Tolkien's world, but would he have traded his piles of gold for, say, a little necklace and a single coin? Heck no!

Sir Giacomo
2007-04-26, 04:56 AM
EDIT: Giacomo, you are completely right and I really don't want to continue the argument after a conclusion like that. Oh well...
(...)
How is this dragon going to survive the first round?


Hey, thanks a lot!
Unfortunately...after having checked the dragon vs wizard thread elsewhere I just noticed that there IS something that the dragon could do...practiced spellcaster feat and contingency/antimagic field, set to a situation where he gets attacked by powerful magic (leave open exact definition)

How could the time stop combo overcome this? The problem is: Disjunction (which could get rid of the contingency) is a powerful magic attack and would trigger the contingency.
Now the wizard might trigger the contingency anyway and then proceed with quickened prismatic shperes or force cubes...but it is a bit more awkward, since the dragon on his turn could lower the AMF (unnoticable by the wizard) and cast a quickened teleport or dimension door.

Hmmmm...maybe dragons, after all, are quite tough to overcome...

- Giacomo

Ikkitosen
2007-04-26, 05:16 AM
A quick question; the SRD says that intelligent creatures carry and use portable treasure that they own. So that means that giving a dragon useable magic items up to its listed treasure value doesn't increase its CR at all, since its expected (and I expect included in its CR when its intelligence and treasure ratings were chosen). I believe this to be a direct contradiction of what some people here are saying...specifically:


RAW you are expected to have items with a total value equal to the WBL. CR's expect it. The monster CRs also fail to account for any items that the DM may give the monster, a wrym black dragon is supposed to be a CR 20 encounter when it has no items and is randomly encountered in a field somewhere.

AmoDman
2007-04-26, 05:29 AM
I give up. I do. You are saying that the biggest and baddest creature in the game is a poon. I know what the OP asked. The only way you can win is by cheating. Yes, you may be playing by the RAW, but it is still cheating. Can you come up with anything besides shivering touch or time stops?

Seriously, that takes a lot of imagination. This is so frustrating. Any game master that lets you get away with that is a bad game master.


What in the hell are you talking about? In core D&D, there are a list of ultimate spells that most every Wizard works for. A 20th level Wizard has, generally, achieved those spells. With those alone, enhanced by standard equipment at average WPL Emperor Tippy showed how a Wizard and CR 20 (not enhanced for higher CR) Dragon randomly attacking each other, by themselves. Think of it like a standard video game - "How do you beat that boss?" > "Attack it with yadda yadda, it's weak against it."



That and you are not looking at equivalent levels. Can someone calculate what CR a level 20 wizard with full equipment would be? I'm betting it is much higher than 20.

The CR System was designed to indicate to DMs what a typical encounter appropriate for a full party that uses up 20% resources is. A dragon, alone, is not an adventure. That is up to the DM to craft, using a dragon as it's crux or not. A wizard is not a full party, but Tippy's argument is that that at 20th level wizards are strong enough as per the standard rules to take the dragon encounter on by themselves. This is hypothetical, not entrenched in an adventure, wherein other challenges would be encountered. Dragons are meant to be crafty, yes. The name Dungeons & Dragons seems to imply adventures through Dungeons which lead to Dragons, both of which, however, are overcome. In an adventure, the theoretical "Dungeon" is the dragon's craftiness. Making the Dragon challenge itself harder is not unheard of, but then that is no longer a CR 20 encounter at the top of the cake.



What is Elan, anyway? I've seen several posts mentioning that. It doesn't matter anyway. And no, the dragons spell casting isn't pointless. Contingency+teleport. You are failing to account for whatever the dragon may have. You think its just going to sit there and let you kill it? .

An elan is a Psionic race from the Expanded Psionics Handbook, something generally considered balanced with if not even moreso core D&D. It's so basic and used that it is included in the srd. You can look it up yourself on any site online with the system reference documents, or by downloading them by wizards.



But I'm going to just give in. I dont' see the point in arguing anymore. I see your point, but you dont' seem to accept that ANYONE has a valid point.

Who is this theoretical anyone? What are their arguments? A lot of people are saying a lot of different things.


p.s. As a funny annecdote, sure, the game may be called Dungeons and Dragons, but it is produced by Wizards of the Coast :smallwink:.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-04-26, 06:38 AM
EDIT: Giacomo, you are completely right and I really don't want to continue the argument after a conclusion like that. Oh well...


"High level genius encounter"? That may be, but the wizard happens to be exactly twice as incredibly brilliant as the dragon.
...and just what would your "dragon sorcerer genius" do?

What are you talking about? Name one thing that your "both posters" have said that is rendered impossible due to the limitations of time stop.
How is this dragon going to survive the first round?

What grey area? Are we going to be treated to another houserule (because houserules are so incredibly relevant)?He is a CR 20 wyrm dragon, yes? That means he is either: a wyrm black dragon (CR 20, CL 13) or a wyrm white dragon with one level of Sorcerer (CR 20, CL 12). If you want him to be ancient, he could be: black with one Sorc. level (CR 20, CL 12), or white with two Sorc. levels (CR 20, CL 11). Notice any similarities? I'll give you a hint: none of them can cast 7th-level spells.


See, the thing is: if the dragon leaves (say, via teleport), the wizard has won. He can box up his shiny new hoard and mail it back to his Magnificent Mansion.

As for the rest of your post:
The dragons in the Monster Manual are CR 20 as is. Is it unrealistic for a dragon to take no precautions? Maybe. (Is it kind of ridiculous to talk about the realism of dragons? Yes.) It's simply irrelevant. If you change the encounter from "dragon" to "dragon surrounded by minions and traps" or "dragon and his epic-level cleric-of-Cthulhu buddy", you are changing the CR.

As an irrelevant side-note: dragons, no matter how smart, are very attached to their hoard. Take Smaug, for example. He was one of the greatest dragons in Tolkien's world, but would he have traded his piles of gold for, say, a little necklace and a single coin? Heck no!

Now if the wizard had said something like after determinging the dragon's lair via my own divinations and professionally cast Communes to determine if there are any other guardians or dangers when the dragon is gone cast by myself and another NPC or party member.

The wizard could go or he could have another creature go in his place to the dragon's lair (Maybe something like a Lantern Archon or Hound Archon that could teleport if the lair was not warded against divination magics while he is away determined by divinations.

If the wizard went he would have protective spells like an emergency contingency to teleport away if the dragon returns unexpectedly along with spells like Foresight and Moment of Prescience in place just in case. He would quickly substitue a Trap the Soul Gem for another similar gem and cast an Unseen Servant to disturb the dragon's treasure taking a few choice items with him before leaving (Less than 10 rounds tops).

The dragon would be toast when he came back and was Trapped in the Gem by touching it with no save while inventorying his treasure.


The wizard might be a high level intelliengence spellcaster but the players were not familiar with their spell limitations and simple tricks would use up his resources since there is no party to use up his.

I don't believe I used an example granting the Wyrm a level 7 spell in this scenario I'm using an old book that has a Wyrm listed as a CR19 CL13 so I gave him the aumented sorcerer level to make him CR20. The Kobold Draconic rite feat would do the same thing granting the dragon a level 7 spell access.

IMO you are wrong regarding the dragon not using basic spellcasting that is his right as an intelliegent spellcasting dragon sorcerer along with his treasure to defend himself and his lair. That is really suboptimizing the encounter since most DMs will not have spent a lot of time developing the encounter and familiarizing themselves with the dragon.

Utilizing a few simple spells and tricks for a genius intellect dragon doesn't change the CR level or prevent a serious wizard from killing the dragon but it will start using up some of the wizard's spells each round. Another mistake like not knowing Timestop spell limitations could easily kill the PC.

The encounter should take a significant portion of the wizard's resources since he is missing the 3 or 4 party members he should and would normally have with him for the encounter that should be engaging 20 - 30% of their resources.

In a single encounter like this one simple mistake can be fatal. Almost all the dragon needs to do is counter attack and the genius wizard who decided to go attack the dragon UNPREPARED alone in his lair without the party incorrectly believing the dragon should just roll over and die is toast. The DM didn't throw a dragon at the wizard unprepared the wizard jumped into the pot.

The Dragon would probably have gotten away safely with some of his personal magic items and treasures IMO and the wizard would have made a major enemy destroying a significant portion of the remaining dragon hoard with the posted spell choices. In the campaigns I play in this translates to a major recurring villain with a personal grudge it would probably become the new campaign driver. The dragon wouldn't just walk away and forget the incident like nothing happened. It would have backup hoard connections possibly an organiztion via the Leadership Feat. It would be played intelligently with a major grudge.

Personally I believe the dragon would be more attached to his more useful and generally more valuable magic treasure but we each bring different things to the game.

I think we generally play in different kinds of games. I mostly play in leveling up campaigns and retire around 9 - 13. In most of campaigns you have already lost if the dragon escapes and you steal his hoard IMO. It is to much of a lever for the DM on top of the regular undercurents. Fun for the DM not so much fun for the players. I don't need an angry dragon wanting to kill my PC in a game tormenting the party because we stole or destroyed it's hoard. It is to easy for the dragon and so hard to find it now. Just getting jumped you sleeping undefended or mostly undefended. Almost anything can be killed with a little effort in a campaign.

Jaltum
2007-04-26, 07:15 AM
...I'm not even in this thread and it makes me want to beat my head against the wall. CastleMike, are you actually reading the posts other people are making? You keep saying the same things over and over again when they've already been addressed and corrected, and you don't seem to understand the point of this exercise at all.

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-26, 07:16 AM
Clever dragons ensure their lairs are usually covered 99% of the way with anti-magic. The remaining 1% is the tunnel you have to get through. Usually just large enough for a Medium creature(minions) to get through, but more importantly, just long enough that anyone halfway in has no chance to outrun the breath weapon(granted, you generally cannot avoid the breath weapon, since you cannot move out of turn, unless you have Evasion, and even then, the DM can rule that you really don't have any way to avoid the breath that fills the whole damn room.), and ready to stamp on anyone who's stupid/strong enough to make it into the main chamber. Seriously though, dragons vs wizards requires the dragon to fight on a different strength, which in this case, is its formidable physical stature(and to a lesser extent, the breath weapon.).

Epiphanis
2007-04-26, 07:17 AM
I've seen you post on several threads that wizards rarely have need for money, because they can just go out and solo a CR 20 dragon whenever they need more money.

I find this statement amusing and a little sad.

Leaving mechanics out of it -- really, if a wizard PC can do this on a regular basis, its only because he's got a grossly incompetent DM.

This really has little to do with the crunch superiority of wizards. For this to work as a repeatable money-maker the player has to rely on several presumptions that no DM over the age of twelve should allow to reliance upon.

First -- just how many CR20 dragons do you have in your neighborhood, anyway? Does your game setting have Dragon Mountain with five hundred caves, each with a separate dragon sitting on his horde, assigned in order of CR, waiting for adventurers to come, kill him, and take his stuff, without alerting the others?

If there were so many CR20 dragons -- hell, CR20 examples of monsters of any species -- conspicuously hanging around terrorizing locals and sitting on money-hoardes, the world would be completely overrun with them, even with a few greedy munchkin wizards running around trying to off them. Only a tiny, tiny number of CR20 monsters should be soloing things conspicuously in a given game world. The rest should have legions of minions and/or be operating inconspicuously. If a wizard can assume he can FIND a powerful dragon anytime he needs money indicates there is something seriously wrong with his setting.

A corellary to the above is -- the wizard assumes the dragon in question is CR20? How? Some divinations tell you hit dice, but you actually have to go and find them to do it. Whoopsie, sorry to bother you, Mr. CR35 Epic Dragon, I was looking for somebody a little weaker. Tah-tah!

Also, killing one or three dragons over the course of an adventuring career is one thing. Systematically hunting down adult reds for their treasure is going to get notice. Dragons are smart, powerful, and have a lot of money. So they're just going to sit around, waiting for a Munchkinwizardy McDragonkiller to come around to kill them next? No, they are going to use their power and resources to take the fight to the wizard. Hire assassins, influence kings, send legions of minions to kill the wizard and/or everything he cares about. And if all that fails, they squirrel away their horde someplace hidden, polymorph themselves into other shapes, and lie low for a while.

Korwin
2007-04-26, 07:19 AM
Indeed. How many ranks does your average wizard have in knowledge(draconic lore)? I'd probably make them take the test on the average of that and their track skill just to be on the safe side. Adding a penalty for anything above a young dragon of course, since older dragons will be more adept at concealing their lair.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antagonist

The knowledge skill for information for dragons is Knowledge Arcana...

CASTLEMIKE
2007-04-26, 07:41 AM
...I'm not even in this thread and it makes me want to beat my head against the wall. CastleMike, are you actually reading the posts other people are making? You keep saying the same things over and over again when they've already been addressed and corrected, and you don't seem to understand the point of this exercise at all.

I suggest you reread the OP quote which is the basis for this thread.

IMO almost anything can be killed in game if it doesn't utilize any of it's natural abilities and talents or resources to defend itself which is how most of the posters seem to be treating a very intelligent CR20 dragon in it's lair with it's hoard and spellcasting abilities but completing ignoring putting them to use to save it's life while the wizard uses attacks and tactics that destroy and devalue the hoard that he is there trying to steal.

I'm not saying a good wizard couldn't kill the dragon just that he needs to overcome the dragon's defenses after he finds it and soloing is not the best option because one mistake can and should kill the wizard PC in this scenario IMO since the wizard is not making plans and taking unecessary chances jumping in unprepared. It's not something you would normally do with a character you have spent a lot of time leveling up IMO.

Spending 10 - 20% of it's hoard to defend itself isn't optimizing the dragon just like letting it take Craft Wonderous Items and using it wouldn't be optimizing the dragon which is over a 1,000 years old with a genius intellect. It means more magic for the party if they don't destroy it needlessly with DBF or MDJ.

Eldritch_Ent
2007-04-26, 08:00 AM
Quick, simple math time! If a CR encounter is supposed to take up the resources of a party of four of the same cr (CR 20 encounter = 20% off a level 20 party)...

So in that case wouldn't a CR 20 encounter take 80% of a Wizard's resources to defeat?

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-26, 08:02 AM
Quick, simple math time! If a CR encounter is supposed to take up the resources of a party of four of the same cr (CR 20 encounter = 20% off a level 20 party)...

So in that case wouldn't a CR 20 encounter take 80% of a Wizard's resources to defeat?
Nope. It takes less than 10% with the DBF trick. And maybe 1 encounters worth of spells with the Shiverign Touch trick.

NullAshton
2007-04-26, 08:07 AM
You know.... wouldn't the wizard expending a time stop, greater teleport, assay spell resistance, multiple delayed blast fireballs/maximized shivering touch + spells to actually kill the dragon, be 20% of a (hypothetical level 20) party's resources? That's a lot of spells to be using for just one encounter.

EDIT: In addition, with the DBF trick, you're using scrolls aren't you? Those scrolls count in the 20% of resources calculation, which isn't offset by the treasure.

In addition, you people saying that a dragon in it's lair with other defenses isn't fit for a CR 20 party, are wrong. You are supposed to have approximately 4 encounters a day, correct? So why not have three encounters before the dragon, with said encounters being the dragon's minions? All leading up to the final encounter with said dragon. Which is perfectly balanced for a level 20 party. But which it would be very improbable if not impossible for a lone wizard to get through.

Sir Giacomo
2007-04-26, 08:13 AM
Emperor Tippy wrote: I've seen you post on several threads that wizards rarely have need for money, because they can just go out and solo a CR 20 dragon whenever they need more money.


I find this statement amusing and a little sad.

Hmm...in a way Emperor Tippy's statement is a bit misleading. The point is that pcs are supposed to have wealth according to the WBL guidelines in the average campaign.
Now the way the characters obtain that treasure does not matter. If a wizard soloes some Dragons of equal or higher CR on his way to lvl 20 to get his treasuer, be it. The other pcs would simply obtain their appropriate treasure in a different way.

Of course, in a campaign this guidelines can at many times be surpassed or underachieved. But a wizard should never consistently get above the WBL for his level, regardless of what he can do. It appears a bit contradictory (since he has quite strong spell possibilities to do the trick vs even dragons), but that is the way it is supposed to work...

...now still thinking on the contingency/AMF defense of the dragon. The time stop combo is out. Forcecage maybe? Would the dragon fit in?
A nice thing about the contingency/AMF is that the dragon would be nicely protected vs melee and archery attacks, since they lose the magic enhancement prior to hitting the dragon; who then makes full use of his DR20/magic defense (if that is not supernatural, but I think it is not).

- Giacomo

NullAshton
2007-04-26, 08:17 AM
The dragon would fit in the barred version of force cage. Mind you, that's sort of moot since the dragon can simply teleport out. And for the shivering touch, a stilled teleport is perfectly within the realms of a CR 20 black dragon...

GMBeowulf
2007-04-26, 08:21 AM
I read threads like this, and get the sneaking suspicion that Tippy and Jade Tarem play a lot of CRPGs. And probably frequent GameFAQS a lot. Dragons have no personalities, dragons are well-known and easily-found chunks of XP on a bed of loot, and any attempt to see them otherwise is the DM trying to screw you over. Wizards, on the other hand, are spell-spamming machines who living in extradimensional holes in the ground and cannot be defeated (or even slowed down) by anything. Sheesh.

(And before the comments come back, yes, I know the rules are written that way. And I know the rules are broken. And Tippy and Jade like broken rules, because they enjoy exploiting them in unrealistic, CRPG-like manners. That's fine for them, but I wouldn't game with either of them if you held a gun to my head.)

Oh, and CASTLEMIKE? I'm going to steal your shift key. Your posts give me headaches.

illathid
2007-04-26, 08:30 AM
IMO anything can be killed in game if it doesn't utilize any of it's natural abilities and talents or resources to defend itself which is how most of the posters seem to be treating a very intelligent CR20 dragon in it's lair with it's hoard and spellcasting abilities but completing ignoring putting them to use to save it's life while the wizard uses attacks and tactics that destroy and devalue the hoard they are trying to steal.

Wow... not one comma in that entire sentence. :smallfrown:

I think part of the problem here is that you are using an old edition of the book. That doesn't really help when we are trying to have a RAW discussion.

Here, I'll give you a link to the SRD's black dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#blackDragon) so you can better participate in this discussion.

Now after reading that do you see why Tippy and others think your arguments don't work? A CR 20 Black dragon wyrm casts as a lvl 13 sorcerer. That means no 7th lvl spells, so no Simulacrum. Yes they do have contingency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm), but even with it, the highest spell they can attach to it is 4th lvl. Not many 4th lvl spells are going to phase a lvl 20 wizard.

Oh yeah, then there's this text about black dragons:


Black dragons are especially fond of coins. Older dragons sometimes capture and question humanoids about stockpiles of gold, silver, and platinum coins before killing them.

Seems to me that the dragon selling its hoard for magic items is even more unlikely.

So, many of the defenses you claimed the dragon has don't work by RAW and for flavor reasons.

P.S. ShneekeyTheLost never said that the Enervations would be cast during times stop, and the difference between teleporting to a creature and teleporting to creature's location is just semantics.

P.P.S. How does a wizard find this CR 20 black dragon? By casting Contact Other Plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm).

For example:
-"Are there any living black dragons between the ages of 1,001-1,200 on this world?"
-"Do any of the dragons I mentioned before have a lair on this continent?"
-"Do any of the dragons I mentioned before have a lair between x and y?"
-etc.

With multiple castings, accurate answers are almost a sure thing.

Suzaku
2007-04-26, 08:53 AM
My question is why doesn't the dragon invest in any Anti magic field, and or have a ring of scintillating scales? Better yet why doesn't s/he research a spell that blocks ability damage coming from spells like Shivering touch?

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-26, 10:43 AM
I read threads like this, and get the sneaking suspicion that Tippy and Jade Tarem play a lot of CRPGs.
Thsi has nothing to do with anything. And FYI, I don't play any CRPG's at all. I used to play guild wars and I have fable on the x-box. Thats all. I have played NWN's and Baldurs gate as well but I don't own copies of them.


And probably frequent GameFAQS a lot.
Wrong again. I've never been to it.


Dragons have no personalities, dragons are well-known and easily-found chunks of XP on a bed of loot, and any attempt to see them otherwise is the DM trying to screw you over.
Gee, nothing like not being able to read is there? I have never said any of that. Although anything except the vanilla dragon from the MM/SRD has a different CR and should be dealt with accordingly.


Wizards, on the other hand, are spell-spamming machines who living in extradimensional holes in the ground and cannot be defeated (or even slowed down) by anything. Sheesh.
I've yet to see a build that didn't involve magic that coudl even touch a half way competent wizard. But that has nothing at all to do with this thread, start a new one if you feel different.


(And before the comments come back, yes, I know the rules are written that way. And I know the rules are broken. And Tippy and Jade like broken rules, because they enjoy exploiting them in unrealistic, CRPG-like manners.
WTF? Again with the insults.

I have stated multiple times that I ignore the D&D rules in my games. They suck. They reacquire so much redoing that you aren't playing D&D at all any more.

I strongly dislike them. That doesn't me that I wont' sit here and educate you about what the rules can and do allow.


That's fine for them, but I wouldn't game with either of them if you held a gun to my head.)

Then you are missing out on quite a lot. Ask my players what they think of my games. Or my DM's.


So besides insults what exactly was the point of this post of yours?

Yahzi
2007-04-26, 11:22 AM
If you really, really, really need fluff justification for what is purely an mathematical application of game mechanics, here's a few:

- The dragon is new to the area and hasn't set up a decent "pad" to "kick it" in with his "crew."

- The dragon just went through a painful divorce and now must stay one hundred miles from the defendent, plus he lost the house and kids and he's tried to rebuild but his heart really isn't in it, and really, he just wants to sleep for a while and not care about anything,

Now that's some fluff!

Dude, I want to play in your campaigns. :smallsmile:

Jade_Tarem
2007-04-26, 11:26 AM
I read threads like this, and get the sneaking suspicion that Tippy and Jade Tarem play a lot of CRPGs. And probably frequent GameFAQS a lot. Dragons have no personalities, dragons are well-known and easily-found chunks of XP on a bed of loot, and any attempt to see them otherwise is the DM trying to screw you over. Wizards, on the other hand, are spell-spamming machines who living in extradimensional holes in the ground and cannot be defeated (or even slowed down) by anything. Sheesh.

(And before the comments come back, yes, I know the rules are written that way. And I know the rules are broken. And Tippy and Jade like broken rules, because they enjoy exploiting them in unrealistic, CRPG-like manners. That's fine for them, but I wouldn't game with either of them if you held a gun to my head.)

Oh, and CASTLEMIKE? I'm going to steal your shift key. Your posts give me headaches.


Wow! It's like arrogance and snottitude - all rolled into one post!

I stand in awe of your ability to read my personal desires and gaming history from afar, despite the fact that you don't know me and have only read one thread that I've posted in. Truly amazing, sir. Did you take diviner levels?

I guess not, since you are completely and totally wrong - and about Tippy too!

The most CRPG things that I've played are from the Baldur's Gate series - where dragons are incredibly overpowered and there's no way in hell a single wizard could take one even at epic levels.

Wizards in 3.5, however, really are spell spamming machines that can't be defeated by nonmagical or partially magical builds if played intelligently. It's just a sad fact of DnD.

I never use GameFAQs. I've never even been to the site.

I DM more than I play, and I hate broken cheese combos. That doesn't mean that they don't exist and don't work. My dragons always have personalities and lifelong goals and witty remarks and oodles of defenses. I would probably not allow a wizard to just pop in and kill one for loot. It doesn't make the least bit of difference.

When I play, I frequently pass over the cheesiest spells and moves for ones that I find fit the character concept better. My sorcerer had a "light" theme going, so his first ninth level spell was prismatic deluge, not timestop, disjunction, gate, shapechange, or a number of other broken things.

To be honest, after hearing garbage like this (since you know me better than I do, apparently) I don't think I'd game with you either.

Just a question: Do you know what a RAW debate is? It's a debate wherein arguments have to be backed up by the RAW. It's also a debate where DMing stylistic touches (such as fleshing out dragons) are completely irrelevant. It's also a debate where you don't attack the people making the arguments.

Edit: But the part of your post that I find most amusing is this one:



(And before the comments come back, yes, I know the rules are written that way. And I know the rules are broken. And Tippy and Jade like broken rules, because they enjoy exploiting them in unrealistic, CRPG-like manners. That's fine for them, but I wouldn't game with either of them if you held a gun to my head.)

You hurl insults at two different posters and the response you expected was us quoting the rules? I also love the way you refer to us in the third person, as though it will shield you from us responding in such a way that your head will be forcibly, painfully removed from your posterior.

GMBeowulf
2007-04-26, 11:35 AM
So besides insults what exactly was the point of this post of yours?

Oh, I'm sorry, was I not clear enough? Insults were pretty much my point. Your posts are haughty and pretentious, especially when you say things like:


That doesn't me that I wont' sit here and educate you about what the rules can and do allow.

And while I felt no need to contribute to the discussion (Beyond "yes, I accept that the rules are broken and, in a fluff-less world a wizard could take down a dragon easily"), I thought I might contribute my opinion of several of the posters. You know, the ones who believe discussion consists of "I'm right. You're wrong. You can't beat me. Nyah nyah."


I have stated multiple times that I ignore the D&D rules in my games. They suck. They reacquire so much redoing that you aren't playing D&D at all any more. I strongly dislike them.

Last month, I was at a comic con, and Jimmy Palmiotti told a story of this guy who would show up on the DC messageboards and tear apart anything he wrote or drew. New or reprint, writing or art, it didn't matter. If Palmiotti's name was on it, this guy had read it and would tear it to bits all over the forums. And Palmiotti was annoyed, at first, but then realized that, whatever he said, this guy was buying and reading everything Palmiotti did. This guy was his biggest fan!

He tracked the guy down and sent him a birthday card.

See anything familiar?

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-26, 11:37 AM
Oh, I'm sorry, was I not clear enough? Insults were pretty much my point.

Read the forum rules lately?

Even with those aside, posts consisting entirely of insults are not okay. Besides, they just make you look bad. Wow!!! You insulted someone on the internet!!!!! You're the man now, dawg!

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-26, 11:38 AM
Just to point out, the only Damage Reductions unaffected by Anti-Magic are DR X/- and DR X/damage type(Slash/Pierce/Bludgeon). IIRC, all the material-based types(Silver, Cold Iron, MAYBE Adamantine) are considered supernatural, as are all alignment-based, and DR X/Magic(even more worthless than usual). Possibly DR X/Epic even.

Jade_Tarem
2007-04-26, 11:43 AM
Oh, I'm sorry, was I not clear enough? Insults were pretty much my point. Your posts are haughty and pretentious, especially when you say things like:



And while I felt no need to contribute to the discussion (Beyond "yes, I accept that the rules are broken and, in a fluff-less world a wizard could take down a dragon easily"), I thought I might contribute my opinion of several of the posters. You know, the ones who believe discussion consists of "I'm right. You're wrong. You can't beat me. Nyah nyah."



Last month, I was at a comic con, and Jimmy Palmiotti told a story of this guy who would show up on the DC messageboards and tear apart anything he wrote or drew. New or reprint, writing or art, it didn't matter. If Palmiotti's name was on it, this guy had read it and would tear it to bits all over the forums. And Palmiotti was annoyed, at first, but then realized that, whatever he said, this guy was buying and reading everything Palmiotti did. This guy was his biggest fan!

He tracked the guy down and sent him a birthday card.

See anything familiar?

Oh. My. God.

Emporer Tippy's posts qualify as haughty and contentious and yours don't?

GMBeowulf
2007-04-26, 11:45 AM
I stand in awe of your ability to read my personal desires and gaming history from afar, despite the fact that you don't know me and have only read one thread that I've posted in. Truly amazing, sir. Did you take diviner levels?

Just for reference, I've been lurking for the better part of a year. I've read many threads that you've posted in. If you're going to attack me for making assumptions, at least limit the hypocracy.


Just a question: Do you know what a RAW debate is? It's a debate wherein arguments have to be backed up by the RAW. It's also a debate where DMing stylistic touches (such as fleshing out dragons) are completely irrelevant. It's also a debate where you don't attack the people making the arguments.

I tried to make that clear to my post responding to Tippy: I'm not participating in a RAW debate. I happily conceded your points on that front. You won that. I'm making ad hominim attacks.


I also love the way you refer to us in the third person, as though it will shield you from us responding in such a way that your head will be forcibly, painfully removed from your posterior.

I went to an Ivy League school, dude. I have a degree in crainial-rectal inversion. It'll take more than you guys to undo that.

Jade_Tarem
2007-04-26, 11:47 AM
You know what just occured to me?

I don't have to keep arguing with you.

Say hello to the mods for me.

And by the way, there's not a touch of hypocrisy in my post. "Sarcasm" and possilby "exaggeration" are the words you're looking for.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-26, 11:47 AM
J I'm making ad hominim attacks.

Hominem.

And what, exactly, makes you think that that's okay?

GMBeowulf
2007-04-26, 11:56 AM
Emporer Tippy's posts qualify as haughty and contentious and yours don't?

Oh, mine totally do. Seriously. I'm pissing myself off.

And now that I've got your attention:

You're obviously both smart guys (you too, Bears). You know a fair amount about D&D rules, and you claim to ignore them and play D&D in a mature and story-based fashion. But yet, you seem very intent on "educating" the rest of us unwashed masses. Why? Why go in for this kind of nonsense? Is it because you enjoy watching other posters get riled up? (I did--damn, but it was fun to ruffle your feathers without fear of retribution. Maybe there's something to this "trolling" thing after all!) Are you conscious of how you come off? Because you come off the way I just did.

And yes, I'm being pretentious by trying to educate you about the appearance you present to someone who doesn't know you at all. But hey, it was worth a shot. And I'll play nice from here on.

EvilElitest
2007-04-26, 12:00 PM
*GRRR*. The OP wanted to know how to solo a CR 20 dragon with a ECL 20 wizard, per RAW,. I told him how. Stop with the housrules people. Get over it. Dragons aren't that hard, even if you don't cheese.

And you never attack the dragon while under the affect of Timestop. Not to mention the fact that you can disable any contingencies or the like wit ha simple quickened disjunction in the readied action.

Sure, if you run your world like a video game and everybody simple fights in the most basic manner possible except wizards

A dragon has, hmmmmmmm, how many years to think of tatics?
Even a Dragon encountered in a field, would that mean the dragon simple walks up to wizard in a charging manner. Could the dragon use an ambuse? Could the dragon play this smart?


A dragon can use its hoard for items, it just throws off the CR and it is not a CR 20 encounter anymore. And dragons like shiny things so they don't spend their hoards.
Wait, earlier you mentioned the wealth by level guidlines thing ment that hte wizard gets to keep his stuff, but hte dragon does not
I don't have my DMG at the moment, but let me recall

A CR 20 Dragon would have the same states as the monster manual. A level CR wizard would have a certain amount of spells from the PH. Now that is them with their raw power

Now the wizard, acording to you is able to use the items from the wealth by level guidlines. Thats fair is surrpose, but he can't exceed that
Now the dragon has a large amount of money, as mentioned under treasure.
Now replace that large amount of money with items of the same value. The hoard (treasure ment for loot) is still there, just in a different form. It is still the dragon's treasure. And he just so happens to be using it

From,
EE

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-04-26, 12:04 PM
Are you conscious of how you come off? Because you come off the way I just did.

Um, no. Jade, Tippy, and Bears don't come off like you do at all. Despite your claims, their posts aren't filled with excessive haughtiness, hypocracy and hubris.

Jade_Tarem
2007-04-26, 12:04 PM
Sure, if you run your world like a video game and everybody simple fights in the most basic manner possible except wizards

I don't believe anyone has yet said this. Some people think it was said, though.


A dragon has, hmmmmmmm, how many years to think of tatics?
Even a Dragon encountered in a field, would that mean the dragon simple walks up to wizard in a charging manner. Could the dragon use an ambuse? Could the dragon play this smart?

Now, here's the frustrating thing for "wizards can't do that" proponents. The wizard really can. There's always a way, especially when using the really overblown spells like Mordenkainen's Disjunction and TimeStop. It doesn't matter what the dragon does, because he doesn't get to do anything. There are no "tactics" for the dragon because he never gets to act. And the wizard is ambushing the dragon, not the other way around. It's nearly impossible to ambush a level 20 wizard.


Wait, earlier you mentioned the wealth by level guidlines thing ment that hte wizard gets to keep his stuff, but hte dragon does not
I don't have my DMG at the moment, but let me recall

A CR 20 Dragon would have the same states as the monster manual. A level CR wizard would have a certain amount of spells from the PH. Now that is them with their raw power

Now the wizard, acording to you is able to use the items from the wealth by level guidlines. Thats fair is surrpose, but he can't exceed that
Now the dragon has a large amount of money, as mentioned under treasure.
Now replace that large amount of money with items of the same value. The hoard (treasure ment for loot) is still there, just in a different form. It is still the dragon's treasure. And he just so happens to be using it

I think this way too. When I roll up a dragon's horde, any magic items that it can use, it does use (usually they're passive booster items). It still doesn't matter when the dragon doesn't get a chance to use his equipment, and the equipment has been shut down by disjunction.

"Where in the nine hells did you get the notion that I would fight fair?" - Drizz't Do'Urden, Baldur's Gate

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-26, 12:20 PM
Oh, mine totally do. Seriously. I'm pissing myself off.

And now that I've got your attention:
Next time, why don't you skip acting like an ass and just say what you want to say in a rational manner? The below is a lot more constructive than any amount of "lol im actin liek u".


You're obviously both smart guys (you too, Bears). You know a fair amount about D&D rules, and you claim to ignore them and play D&D in a mature and story-based fashion. But yet, you seem very intent on "educating" the rest of us unwashed masses. Why? Why go in for this kind of nonsense? Is it because you enjoy watching other posters get riled up? (I did--damn, but it was fun to ruffle your feathers without fear of retribution. Maybe there's something to this "trolling" thing after all!) Are you conscious of how you come off? Because you come off the way I just did.
Because the "unwashed masses", as you put it, make out-there claims, i.e. that the rules are fine and don't need to be ignored. Of course I correct people when I think they're wrong. Most people do.
For the record, I don't play D&D in all that a mature and story-based fashion. D&D just isn't good for that. If I have to play D&D, I'll play with the crunch, because that's part of the game, and can be fun in and of itself; if I want a mature and story-based game I'll play one of a number of other things... provided I can find a game.


And yes, I'm being pretentious by trying to educate you about the appearance you present to someone who doesn't know you at all. But hey, it was worth a shot. And I'll play nice from here on.
No, it really wasn't worth a shot. It should've been obvious that what you were doing wouldn't accomplish anything other than make you look bad.

Revin
2007-04-26, 12:20 PM
Ok here is something to consider. A black dragon wyrm (i.e. CR 20) is also a level 13 sorcerer with all the spells there of. If your DM doesn’t want you killing his pet dragon all he would have to do is give it Contingency and Antimagic field. The only chance anyone has then is Disjunction. Even then you only have a 20% chance per casting of making it a fair fight. While wizards are cool they only have 4 to 6, 9th level spell slots a day.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-26, 12:23 PM
Yes. AMF + Dragon = so Win it's essentially abusive.

The wizardly response is to show up, note the AMF, get the hell out of there, find some CR 20 dragons who don't have AMFs, Dominate then, and get them to fight the AMF-Dragon. Lulz ensue.

Revin
2007-04-26, 12:29 PM
Yes. AMF + Dragon = so Win it's essentially abusive.

The wizardly response is to show up, note the AMF, get the hell out of there, find some CR 20 dragons who don't have AMFs, Dominate then, and get them to fight the AMF-Dragon. Lulz ensue.


True but high level prepared wizards are so win that its essentially abusive. So isnt turn about fair play? :smallsmile:

Grey Paladin
2007-04-26, 12:31 PM
Actually, I do believe the biggest, baddest creature in the game is Ao.

Let me quote a certain wise member of this board, as soon as a wizard reaches level 21 he won D&D.

As for abusing Epic spells, it's fairly simple. Leadership cheese is the standard method. A wizard-21 with Epic spellcasting and a leadership score of 25(asuming he boosts his charisma using magic) gets:
135 1st level followers
13 2nd level followers
7 3rd level followers
4 4th level followers
2 5th level followers
2 6th level followers
A 17th level cohort

If they're all NPC adepts, excpet for the Cohort, who's a Wizard, then for any given Epic spell, you can get:
1 9th level spell slot (17 mitigation points)
8 2nd level spell slots (may need to give the adept-4's a Peripat of Wisdom +4 to do this) (24 mitigation points)
155 1st level spell slots (155 mitigation points).

That gets you 196 mitigation points to use as you see fit.

Summon has a base DC of 14 for a CR 2 outsider, and +2 DC for every +1 CR on the outsider. A Couatl is a CR 10 Outsider, so is a DC 30 Summon for 20 rounds.

Permanent is a *5 factor.

So a Permanent Summon Couatl is DC 150 before mitigation, and the Couatl casts spells as a 9th level Sorcerer (thus, 4th level spell slots). I can mitigate that all the way down to 0 due to Leadership.

Do you see where I'm going with this?

Once a day, you use your Leadership abilities to have your followers help you Permanently Summon a Couatl; after you have enough (each one can give you a couple 4th level spell slots per day; 4, out of the box, and each spell has 7 mitigation points to it) you don't need the followers anymore. Once you have 22 Couatls, you have 154 points of mitigation to use on any one Epic spell just from the Couatls, and they can add to four different Epic spells on a given day. At 21st, you only have two Epic spell slots, so at this point you research a new Epic spell that requires a lot of 4th level spell slots, and start getting two per day. After another 11 days, you have 44 Couatls, for a 308 mitigation factor.

A Solar is CR 23 outsider, and casts spells as a 20th level Cleric (9th level spells, 5/day, each worth a -17 mitigation factor). It's a DC 59 Summon, or a DC 295 Permanent Summon. Shucks, with the Couatls, we can do that. So we research a new Epic spell that Permanently Summons a Solar and takes a lot of 4th level spell slots. We can do this twice a day (Epic spell slots) and thus we're picking up 34 points of mitigation factors each day. I'm Permanently Summoning CR 23 outsiders while I'm CR 21, just a little over a month in.
Give me another month, and I can mitigate basically anything you'd like that way.

AmoDman
2007-04-26, 12:31 PM
Quick, simple math time! If a CR encounter is supposed to take up the resources of a party of four of the same cr (CR 20 encounter = 20% off a level 20 party)...

So in that case wouldn't a CR 20 encounter take 80% of a Wizard's resources to defeat?

Actually, encounters are supposed to require the balance of abilities a party has to overcome, resource percentage notwithstanding. That's supposed to be the difficulty of solo'ing, even if you do use 100% of your resources.

p.s. How has this guy not been beaten with the ban stick yet? Honestly, you all know who I'm talking about, the one wil wildly extravagant claims about his personage and the evil desires and machincations of other posters. I deign not to mention his name nor respond to his divergent insults.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-04-26, 12:35 PM
I don't think that you can use Enervation while Timestopped since it would be targeting the dragon with a spell effect which it is immune to by the Timestop description since it only affects a single creature.

Don't forget all those DBFs will destroy most of the treasure and melt most of the coins one of the reasons the dragon was being targeted as per the OP in the first place.


I never have a situation in which an Enervation goes off during a Time Stop. In fact, the second strategy which takes advantage of Enervation doesn't even USE Time Stop. The first one uses a Quickened Enervation as an opening move to soften him up before the Time Stop goes off.

If a wizard cannot aim a DBF so that he hits the Collossal sized Dragon and not the treasure beneath him, then he doesn't deserve to be called a Wizard. This is Magic, not Physics. No killing Catgirls here. If it isn't in the 10' burst, it doesn't get affected in the slightest. You have the heat of a sun explode in a 10' sphere, yet you could stand milimeters outside the corona and not feel a thing. Unrealistic? Oh, a mite. Then again, this is magic, which regularly tells the laws of physics to sit down and shut up, so perhaps not unrealistically unrealistic.

Woot Spitum
2007-04-26, 01:05 PM
It needs to be said: Dragons have three key weaknesses (five if they're evil).

1)Incredible vanity: They think they're practically indestructable.

2)Incredible arrogance: They consider any non-dragons (that aren't deities) beneath their notice.

3)Incredible greed: Never, ever spend money. If they want something, they take it.

if evil-4)Extreme hatred of all other dragons: Don't work well with others.

5)Antisocial: Isolate themselves. Do not care anything about the outside world.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-04-26, 01:10 PM
Wow... not one comma in that entire sentence. :smallfrown:

I think part of the problem here is that you are using an old edition of the book. That doesn't really help when we are trying to have a RAW discussion.

Here, I'll give you a link to the SRD's black dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#blackDragon) so you can better participate in this discussion.

Now after reading that do you see why Tippy and others think your arguments don't work? A CR 20 Black dragon wyrm casts as a lvl 13 sorcerer. That means no 7th lvl spells, so no Simulacrum. Yes they do have contingency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm), but even with it, the highest spell they can attach to it is 4th lvl. Not many 4th lvl spells are going to phase a lvl 20 wizard.

Oh yeah, then there's this text about black dragons:



Seems to me that the dragon selling its hoard for magic items is even more unlikely.

So, many of the defenses you claimed the dragon has don't work by RAW and for flavor reasons.

P.S. ShneekeyTheLost never said that the Enervations would be cast during times stop, and the difference between teleporting to a creature and teleporting to creature's location is just semantics.

P.P.S. How does a wizard find this CR 20 black dragon? By casting Contact Other Plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm).

For example:
-"Are there any living black dragons between the ages of 1,001-1,200 on this world?"
-"Do any of the dragons I mentioned before have a lair on this continent?"
-"Do any of the dragons I mentioned before have a lair between x and y?"
-etc.

With multiple castings, accurate answers are almost a sure thing.

The semantics of the Time stop spell are you cannot target other creatures with spells they are immune to them but not area effect spells. Although Teleport clearly works for escaping an encounter IMO you are targeting the dragon if you cast it Timestopped to specificially enter the dragon's lair so you can get close enough to kill him.

It's fine if you and other don't agree with that premise but all that means is that in your campaign the BBEGs should not only be able to do the same thing to the PCs when they feel like it they should start doing things like in campaign because PCs have a lot more magic comparitively than anyone else in the game which makes them ideal targets plus they are outnumbered.

Thanks for the SRD my book was +1 CR off. Mine had them as CR 19 and CR21 vice 20 and 22 and No it really hasn't changed a thing other than the great wyrm would not be used in the example because the dragon should be played intelligently or you are cheating yourselves IMO.

Consider what they said they did and look at some of the low level things like Rope Trick which holds up to eight creatures of any size even a gigantic dragon like I posted it could do.

Can the PCs buy spell scrolls in game?

Yes then so can the intelligent monsters even if it has to polymorph.

There is a simulacrum if it is needed for a very low cost I never said it would be the known spell of the genius dragon.

I was giving IMO a few very simple very easy very basic examples of defenses and tricks I have seen or used over the years. Something simple to show how misdirecting a single shot nova attacks which could be negated several ways although True Seeing comes to mind as one of the better in some form as it would also take care of illusions like Programmed Images and Mirror Images or other illusions if utilized. All that would have been negated if True Seeing was utilized in some form.

That draconic kobold ritual would grant the level 7 spell access with out the dragon being optimized IMO and the dragon has a lot of feats.

One of my points is the dragon never had to use a a 7th level spell because of the way it was attacked in the thread.

One of my real issues is that many thread posters never posted on how they were finding the dragon as you are doing for them. In most campaigns finding the exact loacation of the dragon's lair is not a arcana knowledge check. Give us a general brief of how you did it. With something like a Greenstone Amulet basically only Commune would be effective.

I was off +1 CR on the CR rating of the dragon but I wasn't the one trying to kill the dragon. They were unclear of some of the clear limitations of the Time Stop spell casting spells that would not work because the dragon would be immune. IMO some of the other are gray and campaign dependent because things like that work accross the board in most campaigns.

Theoretically just because you have a chance of killing a dragon. IMO it is better to plan the encounter to some degree and not go it alone in case you make a mistake without a party to back your PC up like an occupied dragon lair because there can always be something you overlooked or forgot to look out for.

Why would anyone have a problem with the dragon putting up a basic defense and then say it is an optimized build. Pretend you are playing the dragon and have an hour to make some basic defenses to protect your dragon PC from being killed by adventurers and if successful your real PC gets a really cool magic items and if you put up a decent contest you get a so so magic item for character. What are some of the things you would do as the dragon?

Short of the Draconomicon optimized dragon builds are quite sparse for dragons to my knowledge.

IMO a Greenstone Amulet would not be cheese. It would be one of the best defenses a centuries old dragon could invest in since it would protect against most divinations like the Contact Other Plane which has more chances of harming the caster than any other divination spell I am aware of. It would not protect against a commune and it would be pretty useful to most high level parties a really nice treasure to gain.

Jade_Tarem
2007-04-26, 01:32 PM
Let me quote a certain wise member of this board, as soon as a wizard reaches level 21 he won D&D.

Yes... but not vs. Ao.

Ao is basically the DM as far as power goes. He's considered an "Overseer" - something that is more powerful than all the major deities. Combined. He arbitrarily decided that the gods were mortal in Faerun at one point, and they were made mortal and forced to walk among mortals. They were still epic level characters, though, so needless to say, hilarity ensued. He could think even an epic wizard out of existance.

But yes, by and large access to epic magic = insta-win.


Thanks for the SRD it was a +1 CR to my source book. Mine had them as CR 19 and CR21 vice 20 and 22 and No look at what they said they did and look at some of the low level things like Rope Trick which holds up to eight creatures of any size even a gigantic dragon.

For the love of punctuation, commas!


Can the PCs buy spell scrolls in game?

Yes then so can the intelligent monsters. There is a simulacrum if it is needed for a very low cost I never said it would be the known spell of the genius dragon.

You keep using the term "genius dragon." Between him (INT 18) and the wizard (INT 36), who's the genius? Simulacrum doesn't last forever, at least not that I know of. The dragon would have to know the precise date and time of the wizard's attack - and the best part is that even if the wizard screws it up, he can just teleport out and try again with a different dragon.


I was giving IMO a few very simple very easy very basic examples of defenses and tricks I have seen or used over the years. Something simple to misdirect the attack which could be negated several ways although True Seeing comes to mind as it would also take care of Illusions like Programmed Images, Mirror Images. All that would have been negated if utlized in some form.

One word: Disjunction.


One of my real issues is that many thread posters never posted on how they were finding the dragon as you are doing for them.

Actually, one did post on this and the rest assumed that it was a satisfactory answer. I suggest you check the same post that you quoted.


Another was they were unclear of some of the clear limitations of the Time Stop spell casting spells that would not work because the dragon would be immune. Alone without a party would not be a good place to be if the dragon was still in the lair with you as there was no indication exactly what protections the wizard had in place.

The dragon isn't immune to any of the proposed methods for killing it. He could buy gear that could make him immune, but disjunction takes care of that too.


Another was they had problems with the dragon putting up a basic defense and saying it was an optimized build

IMO a Greenstone Amulet would not be cheese. It would be one of the best defenses a centuries old dragon could invest in since it would protect against most divination like the Contact Other Plane which has more chances of harming the caster than any other divination spell I am aware of. It would not protect against a commune and it would be pretty useful to most high level parties a really nice treasure to gain.

But here's the thing - when you use divinations to find a dragon, and it shows you a dragon, and it isn't the dragon that has a greenstone amulet and 70,000gp worth of traps on its hoarde, then the wizard won't be fighting the well-protected dragon.

The wizard doesn't have to fight the absolutely best-protected dragon in existance ever. He just has to kill one with a hoarde. That's what people are missing. It's easy to say that a black dragon could have permanent spells and high-end protections from divination and all sorts of other goodies - not so easy to say that they all do.

And as with everything else, disjunction takes care of a basic defense setup. It even takes care of an unreasonable one. C'mon people, the spell can kill major artifacts - I could make a strong argument that it's more unbalancing than timestop and shapechange put together.

NullAshton
2007-04-26, 01:47 PM
Yes. AMF + Dragon = so Win it's essentially abusive.

The wizardly response is to show up, note the AMF, get the hell out of there, find some CR 20 dragons who don't have AMFs, Dominate then, and get them to fight the AMF-Dragon. Lulz ensue.

And the dragon suddenly ISN'T dominated when they go into the other dragons AMF. And then the wizard has four or so angry dragons(assuming you dominated three dragons) staring at it. More lulz ensue.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-26, 01:48 PM
But the dragon is re-dominated when it comes out of the AMF. It would be kind of funny.

And the AMF is a 10' emanation. Dragons can attack from beyond 10' away.

Woot Spitum
2007-04-26, 01:56 PM
And the dragon suddenly ISN'T dominated when they go into the other dragons AMF. And then the wizard has four or so angry dragons(assuming you dominated three dragons) staring at it. More lulz ensue.

Evil dragons hate each other intensely. What's more they consider other dragons to be a much greater threat than any non-dragon. With any luck, (and possibly some invisibility) none of the dragons survive. And if one does survive, he's extremely weakened.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-04-26, 02:01 PM
Posted in error and deleted.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-04-26, 02:06 PM
That ring of Spell Turning is looking good and affordable if the dragon has the Craft Ring feat.

Curious how much an Empowered Ring of Counterspells would cost to be able to put in up to level nine spells vice the standard edition with level 1 to 6 at 4,000 GP.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-26, 02:07 PM
Ring of COunterspells only accepts spells of level 1-6. And INT-boosting items don't grant skill points.

blacksabre
2007-04-26, 02:20 PM
This is a stupid excersize..everyone one of these tactics..I would do this, the dragon would do this..its all situational...

If a Dragon is sleeping on the ground in the middle of the wide open plains with no protections, sure..the wizard will win hands down..

But to say a Wizard can go prancing into a lair with the idea that he has all he needs to make it a cake walk, is a fools errand..

Make your Core Wizard,
I'll make the Core Dragon in his lair..
get a Abrbitor DM
Put a $grand down of real money..lets see how this pans out..

illathid
2007-04-26, 02:28 PM
The semantics of the Time stop spell are you cannot target other creatures with spells they are immune to them but not area effect spells. Although Teleport clearly works for escaping an encounter IMO you are targeting the dragon if you cast it Timestopped to specificially enter the dragon's lair so you can get close enough to kill him.

It's fine if you and other don't agree with that premise but all that means is that in your campaign the BBEGs should not only be able to do the same thing to the PCs when they feel like it they should start doing things like in campaign because PCs have a lot more magic comparitively than anyone else in the game which makes them ideal targets plus they are outnumbered.

You understand this reading of Time Stop is a house rule, and as such has no place in a RAW debate, so lets just drop it.



IMO a Greenstone Amulet would not be cheese. It would be one of the best defenses a centuries old dragon could invest in since it would protect against most divinations like the Contact Other Plane which has more chances of harming the caster than any other divination spell I am aware of. It would not protect against a commune and it would be pretty useful to most high level parties a really nice treasure to gain.

So every single dragon in the world owns a Greestone amulet? Considering that it's a minor artifact I find that highly unlikely.

Flying Elephant
2007-04-26, 02:33 PM
If an Old Red Dragon (CR 20) knew he were to fight a wizard, the dragon could cast Nightmare (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nightmare.htm) every 24 hours on the wizard.

Woot Spitum
2007-04-26, 02:36 PM
Of course, if the dragon spent his whole hoard to protect his lair, it kinda defeats the purpose of soloing him for his treasure.

Sir Giacomo
2007-04-26, 02:42 PM
But the dragon is re-dominated when it comes out of the AMF. It would be kind of funny.


Ah BWL, this is hilarious! Reminds me of my namesake in The Jester (50s movie with Danny Kay)...

...on dominate monster: I'm afraid it won't work (is too dangerous for a wizard in this situation). It is based on dominate person, and it has the passage that the subject receives a new saving throw every time the subject has to do something against its nature. And dragons are very fierce in pursuing their own will. Probably even a (mass) suggestion is stronger. In fact, the dominate spells are quite weak in this aspect. Plus, a simple protection from evil blocks it (likely every dragon has one of those to cast on its brethren).

- Giacomo

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-04-26, 02:47 PM
Ah BWL, this is hilarious! Reminds me of my namesake in The Jester (50s movie with Danny Kay)...

...on dominate monster: I'm afraid it won't work (is too dangerous for a wizard in this situation). It is based on dominate person, and it has the passage that the subject receives a new saving throw every time the subject has to do something against its nature. And dragons are very fierce in pursuing their own will. Probably even a (mass) suggestion is stronger. In fact, the dominate spells are quite weak in this aspect. Plus, a simple protection from evil blocks it (likely every dragon has one of those to cast on its brethren).

- Giacomo

Eh, you don't have to order the dominated dragon to attack the other one if you do it right. Dominate a good-aligned dragon, and bring it to the lair of an evil-aligned one. Then let it go and come back in 5 minutes.

Jasdoif
2007-04-26, 03:17 PM
Ring of COunterspells only accepts spells of level 1-6. And INT-boosting items don't grant skill points.It wouldn't even matter if you could put Time Stop into it; Ring of Counterspells only works on spells that target you. Time Stop has a Personal range.

It would be funny if it worked that way, though. Since Time Stop has an apparent effect of stopping everything except the wizard, if a ring of counterspells could stop it then as long as there was a ring of counterspells with Time Stop in it anywhere in the multiverse the Time Stop spell wouldn't work for anyone.

PC: "I cast Time Stop!"
DM: "Sorry, it was dispelled."
PC: "Gah...I cast a quickened Time Stop!"
DM: "Sorry, dispelled again."
PC: "Argh! What the heck could be dispelling two of them?"
DM: "I really shouldn't tell you this...but there's a few thousand demiplanes with Inevitables wearing rings of counterspelling trapped in them."
PC: "...."

Jade_Tarem
2007-04-26, 05:30 PM
This is a stupid excersize..everyone one of these tactics..I would do this, the dragon would do this..its all situational...

If a Dragon is sleeping on the ground in the middle of the wide open plains with no protections, sure..the wizard will win hands down..

But to say a Wizard can go prancing into a lair with the idea that he has all he needs to make it a cake walk, is a fools errand..

Make your Core Wizard,
I'll make the Core Dragon in his lair..
get a Abrbitor DM
Put a $grand down of real money..lets see how this pans out..


Them's fighting words.

Make your core dragon and I'll make a core wizard that can kill it. That's how it works in-game, too, since I can study the dragon ahead of time, as well as it's defenses, and the dragon presumably doesn't know I'm coming.

Just for grins, do you have any magical defenses that can survive mordenkainen's disjunction? This includes items and AMF.

Do you have any nonmagical defenses that prevent/work against timestop?

Can you make a dragon that can act during timestop?

Can you force my wizard to fight this dragon instead of finding an easier target without DM powers?

If you answered "no" to any of these questions, then you owe me $1000! :smalltongue:

And for the DM thing - take a good look at the thread. I want you to count the number of times someone has said that a sane DM probably wouldn't allow this. Does it really bear repeating again?

PaladinBoy
2007-04-26, 05:59 PM
Wow, this really exploded.

Apparently, it is easily possible to solo a CR 20 dragon with a wizard 20. Maybe. I'm still not sure about the timestop+greater teleport, because it seems perfectly sensible to assume that a dragon will have anti-scrying wards on its lair, to prevent people like these wizards from gathering the intel they need for this magical ambush.

This also seems like a pretty cheap, if permissible by RAW, way to kill a dragon. I respectfully submit that if you have any players in your campaign that are actually doing this, then you have bigger problems than a slightly antagonistic DM (that tries some of these counters).

Finally, part of my worries about this situation includes using it regularly as a moneymaking scheme. I think that doing this more than two times will:

a) Put all of the oldest and most impressive dragons on their guard. Sure, they might not have bothered with anti-scrying and contingency defenses before, but if the choice is "spend maybe 100,000 gp out of my hoard" or "lose my hoard and my life when this dragonslayer targets me" then I think any dragon worth his 18 Int will pick the first.

b) Cause many of the oldest and most impressive dragons to keep a close eye on the wizard. Particularly in a place like Eberron, where high power people are rare, then you may already be someone known across the entire world. In Faerun, you're just another wizard, but in either, dragonslayers are relatively rare. Killing more than a few dragons gets a lot of attention put on you...... particularly by the dragons, who don't want it to happen to them.

c) In extreme cases, the oldest dragons will realize that they can't beat you alone. It'll take a little while, but after killing a half a dozen dragons for their hoards, some older dragons will reason that they can't defend their hoards on their own; the wizard is simply too powerful. Then again, if three of them attack all at once, then that might be enough of a preemptive strike.

With a) and b), the situation becomes much more difficult for the wizard...... it's harder to make plans without intel, increased defenses make better planning necessary, and making plans unnoticed is difficult when the dragon (or his contacts) are keeping a watchful eye over the wizard.

With c), well, the wizard would have to run very hard and fast to keep his skin intact.......

Indon
2007-04-26, 06:10 PM
But the dragon is re-dominated when it comes out of the AMF. It would be kind of funny.

And the AMF is a 10' emanation. Dragons can attack from beyond 10' away.

Well, what the dragons do, is get into a big grapple. A few dragons later, and they can get some real speed going on.

Woot Spitum
2007-04-26, 07:23 PM
c) In extreme cases, the oldest dragons will realize that they can't beat you alone. It'll take a little while, but after killing a half a dozen dragons for their hoards, some older dragons will reason that they can't defend their hoards on their own; the wizard is simply too powerful. Then again, if three of them attack all at once, then that might be enough of a preemptive strike.

With c), well, the wizard would have to run very hard and fast to keep his skin intact.......

First of all, it's much easier for a wizard to hide than it is for a dragon. Second, if the dragons come after the wizard, he has the advantage of choosing when and where to face them. In fact, getting dragons to come to you may very well be a more effective strategy than seeking out dragons.

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-26, 09:04 PM
I think Dragons need to start putting pebbles with Permanent AMFs around their lair. Enough so that the only non-AMFed zones are their Draconis Fundamentum(somewhere near the heart), and their heads(if they rest them on their shoulders, or stretch their necks towards the sole ground entrance). Definitely need many items of Dimensional Anchor.

It does leave me wondering though. What happens when you run into an AMF while Time-Stopping?

Jack_Simth
2007-04-26, 09:36 PM
I think Dragons need to start putting pebbles with Permanent AMFs around their lair. Enough so that the only non-AMFed zones are their Draconis Fundamentum(somewhere near the heart), and their heads(if they rest them on their shoulders, or stretch their necks towards the sole ground entrance). Definitely need many items of Dimensional Anchor.

It does leave me wondering though. What happens when you run into an AMF while Time-Stopping?
It's in the description of Time Stop - you can't enter the area of an AMF while Time Stopped.

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-26, 10:51 PM
Heh. I was thinking more along the lines of "You return to the normal timestream, which means the remainder of your time is wasted while you are frozen, then time resumes as normal."

blacksabre
2007-04-26, 11:23 PM
Them's fighting words.

Make your core dragon and I'll make a core wizard that can kill it. That's how it works in-game, too, since I can study the dragon ahead of time, as well as it's defenses, and the dragon presumably doesn't know I'm coming.

A Dragon always expects someone is coming....he after all is protecting his hoard, which keeps getting bigger from all the doantions of them solo wizards who pop in..


Them's fighting words.
Just for grins, do you have any magical defenses that can survive mordenkainen's disjunction? This includes items and AMF. .?
Yes...



Do you have any nonmagical defenses that prevent/work against timestop?.?
Yes...



Can you make a dragon that can act during timestop?.

Your'e assuming you actually get to cast Timestop..



Can you force my wizard to fight this dragon instead of finding an easier target without DM powers??.
Um...the wizard is the one coming after the Dragon...The Op post is for the Wizard to kill the Dragon...thats the task..

Beleriphon
2007-04-26, 11:34 PM
Question.

Doesn't our CR20 Black Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#blackDragon), which casts spells as a 13th level sorcerer? I haven't seen anybody address whether or not there are any spells a 13th level sorcerer could use to foil the wizard. I can't think of any off the top of my head, but I'm sure there must be something. If nothing else in our hypothetical battle here you should detail all of the spells that the charisma 18 dragon has selected.

Also with free water breathing and a propensity for having lairs underwater the wizard is at the very least blowing one spell on being able to breath underwater as well. Add to the that the somewhat different rules for underwater spell casting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#underwaterCombat) and you have a slightly more challenging encounter. In this situation a DBF becomes less useful, if only because it might not work at all. As a bonus the archmage's mastery of elements lets the DBF deal a different type of damage, but its still a spell with the Fire descriptor so no cheesing your way past a spell craft check. Which, yes the wizard should be able to pass easily but is still possible to fail.

There is also the presumption that you can surprise the dragon, in its underwater lair, which I wouldn't put past a well prepared wizard. However, if you fail to take the thing by surprise you're boned. Completely and totally boned. I think this is the key here, if as a wizard you're entire operation requires to take something by surprise and when you don't you're screwed then its not a very good plan.

For more fun do the 20th level wizard versus a great wyrm red. If nothing else the 19th level sorcerer bit should even the odds immensely. I mean at that point a lair should be completely secure to all but the most intrepid spell casters willing to blow half their load just getting into the lair. As a bonus, make one of the 9th level spells Gate or Summon Monster IX.



b) Cause many of the oldest and most impressive dragons to keep a close eye on the wizard. Particularly in a place like Eberron, where high power people are rare, then you may already be someone known across the entire world. In Faerun, you're just another wizard, but in either, dragonslayers are relatively rare. Killing more than a few dragons gets a lot of attention put on you...... particularly by the dragons, who don't want it to happen to them.


Very true. In Eberron any dragon worth killing has a least a few dozen levels of its own in wizard, probably cleric, or for real fun druid. Can you imagine the look of horror on a player's face when the dragon wild shapes into a different type of dragon?

Jade_Tarem
2007-04-26, 11:46 PM
A Dragon always expects someone is coming....he after all is protecting his hoard, which keeps getting bigger from all the doantions of them solo wizards who pop in..

Cute. And his defenses include...? You can say the wizard's attack won't work, but you have very little in the way of concrete examples to back it up. In fact, you've got nothing. This is not to imply that you know nothing, you just haven't posted it.


Yes...

Really? Magic that can survive disjunction? I'd love to hear what it is.


Yes...

Again, I'd love to hear what that is.


Your'e assuming you actually get to cast Timestop..

While you can probably come up with some way that I don't, 99.9% of the time that baby's gonna go off. It's not like the dragon sits there with a readied action to torch anything that comes into its lair 24/7.


Um...the wizard is the one coming after the Dragon...The Op post is for the Wizard to kill the Dragon...thats the task..

And there's the misconception common among dragon proponents. You see, the task is to kill a dragon, not your dragon-which-has-blown-half-its-hoard-on-lair-defenses-and-is-in-possession-of-three-minor-artifacts. If the dragon is too badass to handle, I search out another one (and yes, I do survive the process of discovering that the dragon is too much to handle - don't even go there). Not every black dragon in the universe has an absolutely perfect defense grid, assuming such a thing even exists.


Question.

Doesn't our CR20 Black Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#blackDragon), which casts spells as a 13th level sorcerer? I haven't seen anybody address whether or not there are any spells a 13th level sorcerer could use to foil the wizard. I can't think of any off the top of my head, but I'm sure there must be something. If nothing else in our hypothetical battle here you should detail all of the spells that the charisma 18 dragon has selected.

There have been numerous proposals concerning various things the dragon can cast. The problem is that there's this yawning gulf in terms of power between 9th level and 6th level spells.


Also with free water breathing and a propensity for having lairs underwater the wizard is at the very least blowing one spell on being able to breath underwater as well. Add to the that the somewhat different rules for underwater spell casting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#underwaterCombat) and you have a slightly more challenging encounter. In this situation a DBF becomes less useful, if only because it might not work at all. As a bonus the archmage's mastery of elements lets the DBF deal a different type of damage, but its still a spell with the Fire descriptor so no cheesing your way past a spell craft check. Which, yes the wizard should be able to pass easily but is still possible to fail.

Actually, it's not possible to fail such a check. Remember that a natural 1 doesn't mean "auto-fail" for skill checks, and by level 20 a wizard should be able to sodomize any concentration/spellcraft check he needs to make vs. anything but grappling or damage. And yes, the underwater thing has been addressed. Water Breathing is a spell belonging to a level not being used to kill the dragon, so it's not really a big deal.


There is also the presumption that you can surprise the dragon, in its underwater lair, which I wouldn't put past a well prepared wizard. However, if you fail to take the thing by surprise you're boned. Completely and totally boned. I think this is the key here, if as a wizard you're entire operation requires to take something by surprise and when you don't you're screwed then its not a very good plan.

The thing is, by level 20 a wizard makes his own luck and sets his own battle conditions. Even if the dragon somehow catches the wizard by surprise (it it's lair!) the encounter looks something like this:

Dragon: "Haha, puny manling! My turn - I..."
Wizard: "Celerity! Quickened Timestop! Haha, fun times!"

Or, assuming the Dragon actually goes so far as to get a surprise round on the wizard (which would never, ever happen, but just for giggles)

Dragon: *Breath Weapon, or Offensive spell, or attack, or something*
Wizard: *Contingency: ORS* Oh, and let's not forget Energy Immunity Acid is active on him.
Dragon: "Nuts."


For more fun do the 20th level wizard versus a great wyrm red. If nothing else the 19th level sorcerer bit should even the odds immensely. I mean at that point a lair should be completely secure to all but the most intrepid spell casters willing to blow half their load just getting into the lair. As a bonus, make one of the 9th level spells Gate or Summon Monster IX.

This actually defeats the purpose, changing the task from "can you kill a black dragon for money without a chance for failure?" to "Can you beat a sorcerer who's one level lower than you but has much better stats, saves, ability scores, and DR and SR?"

Beleriphon
2007-04-27, 12:28 AM
Dragon: "Haha, puny manling! My turn - I..."
Wizard: "Celerity! Quickened Timestop! Haha, fun times!"

Or, assuming the Dragon actually goes so far as to get a surprise round on the wizard (which would never, ever happen, but just for giggles)

Dragon: *Breath Weapon, or Offensive spell, or attack, or something*
Wizard: *Contingency: ORS* Oh, and let's not forget Energy Immunity Acid is active on him.
Dragon: "Nuts."


What's your contingency in the surprise round? As far as I know there isn't one for a dragon's attacks, that can force massive damage saves. Unless its a retreat at which point you've lost the encounter anyways under the proposed conditions of the killing the dragon and taking its stuff.

Also, doesn't going first imply winning initiative? The only real obstacle the dragon has to overcome is its +0 initiative bonus to go first in any given combat.

In addition its not like dragons have particularly crappy saves either. The lowest on a CR20 black dragon is +19 for reflex. Any spell you sling at them is pretty likely to be saved against, not discounting any possible spell resistance chance. Again, a fairly easy to over come avenue but there is still the possibility arises where you fail to over come SR.

I'm perfectly willing to admit that a 20th level wizard would probably be able to wreck havock on a CR20 dragon, but I can't see the damn thing at least putting up at least a decent defense. The suggestion that you can just traipse in on a dragon, drop a time stop and blow the hell out of it doesn't wash for me. If nothing else you'd think it would have the sense to ward its lair against teleportation effects forcing the wizard to enter the old fashioned way.



This actually defeats the purpose, changing the task from "can you kill a black dragon for money without a chance for failure?" to "Can you beat a sorcerer who's one level lower than you but has much better stats, saves, ability scores, and DR and SR?"

Fair enough. I'd still see it as a reasonable thought experiment.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-27, 12:35 AM
Aren't magic items allowed to make saves?

Eh, if I was the dragon, I'd make sure to have a few minor artifacts, so when the wizard disjoined my shizznat, he would be forced to make saves vs. permanently losing all spell casting powers.

Aquillion
2007-04-27, 12:45 AM
What's your contingency in the surprise round? As far as I know there isn't one for a dragon's attacks, that can force massive damage saves. Unless its a retreat at which point you've lost the encounter anyways under the proposed conditions of the killing the dragon and taking its stuff.ORS = Otiluke's Resilient Sphere (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resilientSphere.htm). Note that the dragon doesn't actually get a chance to even attempt to destroy it--whatever attack the dragon was attempting will fail (even if it happened to be a disintegrate somehow, it still wouldn't hurt the wizard!), then the Wizard goes, casts Maximized Time Stop from inside the sphere, dismisses it as a standard action, and does whatever he wants.

One curious note, though--when casting Disjunction, you might want to make sure that the dragon doesn't have any artifacts in its hoard. If there is one, a CL 20 wizard has a 20% chance of destroying it... at which point the offending spellcaster have to make a DC 25 will save or permanently lose all spellcasting abilities. (The spell specifically notes that these abilities cannot be recovered by mortal magic, not even miracle or wish.) Granted, a will save is a wizard's best... but saves still fail automatically on a 1. Even if failing both rolls consecutively is literally a one-in-a-hundred chance (higher with multiple artifacts), do you really want to risk being turned into a level 20 commoner forever? Plus, even if you pass the save, your blunder is "95% likely to attract the attention of some powerful being who has an interest in or connection with the device"; while the rules don't explicitly say it has to be a bad sort of attention... well. Accidentally disjunctioning an artifact would make things rather too complicated to attempt regularly.

The wizard can avoid this by using Contact Other Plane to check for artifacts in advance. They just have to remember to do it or they could be in trouble.

Ikkitosen
2007-04-27, 02:52 AM
And there's the misconception common among dragon proponents. You see, the task is to kill a dragon, not your dragon-which-has-blown-half-its-hoard-on-lair-defenses-and-is-in-possession-of-three-minor-artifacts. If the dragon is too badass to handle, I search out another one (and yes, I do survive the process of discovering that the dragon is too much to handle - don't even go there). Not every black dragon in the universe has an absolutely perfect defense grid, assuming such a thing even exists.

I take issue with this. When talking about thousand-year-old dragons, only the ones that do exactly this survive that long.

Seriously, we're all far less smart than a dragon (when you consider all of its mental stats, especially) and have been playing D&D for a few years and you've already figured out how to "easily" solo a dumb dragon that should be a challenge at your level. Ok, so you have access to the rules, but I think it's fair to say that after many centuries of life the dragon has a similar understanding of its world. Do you really think it wouldn't have figured out the best possible way to defend itself?

Now, if your plan was clever then as DM I'd give it a great shot - because it's a game, but I think you'd agree that it isn't that clever (teleport in, stop time, drop DBFs at its feet). Any dragon that couldn't survive this wouldn't have lived to CR20.

In fact, if you consider Core to be the most common spells/powers out there then this is where a dragon has its best shot of seeing your strategy coming. After all, its probably seen that exact plan before!

Baron
2007-04-27, 04:34 AM
Baron Von Mod:

Due to the large amount of flaming that has occured in this thread a series of Infractions and Warnings have been issued.

The only reason that this thread has not being locked is that it appears to have gone back onto topic.

If it drifts again it will be locked.

The New Bruceski
2007-04-27, 04:58 AM
Re: AMF as defense against a wizard; unless I've missed something, a disjunction only has a 20% chance of removing an AMF if cast by a level 20 Wizard. Even if you maximize time stop and cast 5 of them, you've got a 30% chance of being dragon-chow, and you've just used all yout 9th-level spells for the day (assuming int of 36). Sounds like a roll of the dice that's stacked against the caster.

Sure there's spells that bypass it through technicalities (intended or unintended is for another argument) but that means you've got to prepare for 2 different fights. With the fireball-spam method for example, is there any way to know an AMF's up until you finish the time stop and nothing goes boom?

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-27, 05:03 AM
Greater Arcane Sight, for example, will reveal an AMF.

Vyker
2007-04-27, 05:20 AM
I take issue with this. When talking about thousand-year-old dragons, only the ones that do exactly this survive that long.

Eh. Maybe. Maybe not. If you want to use fluff to defend dragons, that really gets into the debate of what dragons are like in your game (animals, lone schemers, group players, etc.), which rapidly becomes less than relevant to a "stats vs. stats" hypothetical question. You want dragons to be better than their stats say they are. That's fine, cool, perfectly acceptable, and entirely understandable. But it's outside the scope of, "Can a Level 20 Wizard solo a CR20 dragon? Yes? How? Oh. Okay."

I guess the main issue being put forth by dragon defenders that I'm having trouble with is that you're sorta railroading the wizard into fighting something more powerful than he's looking to fight. And that's a key part of this whole thing: the wizard is choosing to fight a dragon. A dragon. Not a particular, specific dragon. Not the Dragon of Deathguard Keep, infused with daemonic energies from beyond the Nether Realms, who cannot be killed save by rituals forgotten or hidden from time. Not the Dragon of the Scarlet Armory, with an arsenal of artifacts prepared to refract or render useless whatever an invader tries. Nor even the Dragon of Highvale, whose palace is guarded by thousands of loyal soldiers, clerics, and wizards. Just a dragon who happens to have a horde of value greater than [X], and not too much in the way of defenses. And he's not on the clock, either. He can take time to research, learn more, come up with all the tricks he needs. The dragon may never know that an assassin three planes away is preparing to light him up.

Not all dragons are going to be so paranoid that they huddle in an AMF fortress, constantly scrying to make sure that no one anywhere is thinking about them. Some might. These are the dragons you avoid.

Dragons, like people, possess some spark of variety. Some of them might never have had to deal with high level problems. Maybe they have a habit of killing local heroes who reach eighth level or higher (there's a gith who does something like that... why not a dragon?), and the wizard is the first person of sufficient level to actually challenge the guy. Maybe they were just lucky. Maybe they kept a low profile. Maybe they're just arrogant, or preoccupied, or whatever, whatever, whatever! Whatever it may be, dragon fluff is filled with things that could lead to their downfall, and any dragon who's too tough to bother with isn't likely to be the target the wizard chooses.

Of course, if the wizard decides to solo a dragon capable of defeating Celerity/Time Stop plus whatever fun toy you tack on to that, or one without a horde, or one who's a walking antimagic field supressable at will, he deserves what he gets. But that's not likely.

Again -- the wizard can choose whom to fight. The tough 'uns aren't gonna get chosen.

Don't get me wrong -- in my campaigns, dragons (if they show up) tend to be both powerful personally (that lovely statline) and indirectly (minions, allies, and the like). Of course, one of the reasons I do that is because I feel that dragons are kinda a paper tiger. Stats only, they cannot, alone, stand up to a competent wizard, let alone a party, without significant investment of their horde (unlikely for a dragon) and a paranoid lifestyle (less likely for a dragon). So I get creative and presume that the better ones tend to use more than just teeth and fire to solve their problems, and load them down with "extras" to place them back on the place of honor which the game imagines them to have.

--

As an aside, I have the impression that if you replaced the word "dragon" with some other CR20 critter, folks wouldn't object quite so much. I mean, the strategies presented here work from a mechanical point of view. I just don't think some people like the idea of dragons being whomped on because, well, they're dragons!

--

Additional aside:


Seriously, we're all far less smart than a dragon (when you consider all of its mental stats, especially) and have been playing D&D for a few years and you've already figured out how to "easily" solo a dumb dragon that should be a challenge at your level.
(emphasis mine)

One reason we can do that is because the rules are clearly written and presented to us in a form unavailable to the characters. If life had sourcebooks, we'd probably see a lot more optimizing going on (and Charisma probably wouldn't be a dump stat!).

Renegade Paladin
2007-04-27, 05:54 AM
RAW you are expected to have items with a total value equal to the WBL. CR's expect it. The monster CRs also fail to account for any items that the DM may give the monster, a wrym black dragon is supposed to be a CR 20 encounter when it has no items and is randomly encountered in a field somewhere.
Tippy, understand this: A dragon will never, ever, not even once, be randomly encountered in a field somewhere. Ever. Dragons do not come pre-built; the dragon entries in the Monster Manual are a set of rules for building dragons at the various age categories, roughly analogous to level. Monsters suitable for random encounters come prepackaged in the MM; dragons are not. In order to use one, the DM has to build it, and I don't know a single DM who wastes his time building custom monsters for random encounter charts.

Entries in the Monster Manual don't come with implied equipment. The CR they give is for the creature presented, not the creature presented plus magical equipment costing the WBL of a PC of it's CR. It's perfectly reasonable to say that dragons shouldn't be encountered in that state, even in their own lairs, but giving it equipment does make it a different encounter.
So the CR for dragons is for the creature as presented, unbuilt, without any skills or feats? That's the most hilarious statement I've read all day. :smallamused:

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-27, 06:51 AM
Tippy, understand this: A dragon will never, ever, not even once, be randomly encountered in a field somewhere. Ever.

I love how you can magically sit in on every D&D game ever.

Renegade Paladin
2007-04-27, 07:03 AM
I love how you can magically sit in on every D&D game ever.
And I love how you think cheesing wizards is even remotely fun or interesting, but hey. Dragons have to be built with at least as much effort as a character. There might be a few DMs out there who will go to the effort just so he can give it a spot on a custom random encounter chart that may or may not ever result in that dragon he just handcrafted ever actually being used, but I can't imagine that it's what you could reasonably call common. If I invest effort into building an NPC, especially a high level one such as an ancient dragon, it will not be used for a random encounter, or at least not only as one. I have never known a DM who would do that, and I have known a lot of DMs.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-27, 07:12 AM
I also love how you insult my (incorrectly) perceived playstyle to try to defend your absolute statement (those are so rarely a good idea).

Ikkitosen
2007-04-27, 07:14 AM
CEntries in the Monster Manual don't come with implied equipment. The CR they give is for the creature presented, not the creature presented plus magical equipment costing the WBL of a PC of it's CR.

According to the SRD this is categorically wrong. Intelligent creatures carry and use portable, useful treasure that they possess. It's included in their CR, it does not increase it. Likewise their intelligence is included, so preparation in line with that is included in their CR.

As for arguing that not all thousand-year-old creatures who've seen a few fights are experienced in their own defence I say "pah!" (:smallbiggrin:) and point out that the simple dragon you may wish to fight probably died as a wyrmling for being a dumbass.

Now, I'm not saying a well-played L20 wizard can't beat a CR20 dragon on his or her own. In fact I think they have a good chance, since as you say they'll almost certainly be better prepared. However, comparing stats to stats doesn't work - D&D is a game with humans (I mean us, not PCs) on both sides, who can both come up with cunning plans. Dragons know how to take advantage of their strengths and cover up their weaknesses, and just because it is difficult to come up with ways to defeat things like Time Stop, we know it's not impossible and we're "only human" :smallcool:

Renegade Paladin
2007-04-27, 07:17 AM
I know what you say your playstyle is. And maintain that you still must think it interesting in some capacity; otherwise you wouldn't talk about it so much. Which is why I didn't say you think playing them is fun or interesting; there's a fundamental difference between that and what I actually said.

Anyway, more to the point, have you ever known a DM to craft a high-end true dragon for the sole purpose of a random encounter chart? That is, after all, the issue; if no one can actually say they do it or have seen it done, then functionally it may as well not happen.

Oh, and anything involving teleporting in is foiled by anticipate teleportation or the greater version thereof. Just thought I'd throw that out there. They're both easily within reach of a dragon of the levels we're talking about here.

Ikkitosen
2007-04-27, 07:19 AM
Some people were talking Core only, which actually seems to favour the wizard!

NullAshton
2007-04-27, 07:33 AM
By the way, foresight is a three hour or so spell, and a 9th level spell... I believe it would be unreasonable to assume that you would have it up all of the time.

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-27, 08:21 AM
Dragons may not be "friendly" to other Dragons(Good Dragons are only marginally friendly towards same type, slightly favourable towards other Good Dragons, and hate Evil), but they are family creatures. Nothing below like Juvenile(I guess, roughly anything that is about Medium sized) is usually left to fend for itself(ie, still staying with the folks). Anything from Young Adult up to Mature Adult is making a lair(and thus has little to no treasure, compared to the difficulty of killing it). Wyrms, etc. have survived all the crap of the last millenia, and are suitably paranoid/senile/insane. They have huge treasure, but are ready to kill anyone who tries to take even a single coin. What does all this mean?

1. Never expect to find anything smaller than Young Adult on its own. It will likely have anywhere up to 2 dozen nestmates(of various age ranges), and 1 to 2 parents of the Mature Adult/Wyrm size.

2. (Great)Wyrms are survivors. They didn't get to celebrate becoming milleniarians by being stupid. Personally, I really cannot see too many Dragons past Adult not having at least half a dozen to a dozen levels in a base class(and/or PrCs). Come on, 1 million years, and all they did was eat and sleep?

CASTLEMIKE
2007-04-27, 08:42 AM
Eh. Maybe. Maybe not. If you want to use fluff to defend dragons, that really gets into the debate of what dragons are like in your game (animals, lone schemers, group players, etc.), which rapidly becomes less than relevant to a "stats vs. stats" hypothetical question. You want dragons to be better than their stats say they are. That's fine, cool, perfectly acceptable, and entirely understandable. But it's outside the scope of, "Can a Level 20 Wizard solo a CR20 dragon? Yes? How? Oh. Okay."

I guess the main issue being put forth by dragon defenders that I'm having trouble with is that you're sorta railroading the wizard into fighting something more powerful than he's looking to fight. And that's a key part of this whole thing: the wizard is choosing to fight a dragon. A dragon. Not a particular, specific dragon. Not the Dragon of Deathguard Keep, infused with daemonic energies from beyond the Nether Realms, who cannot be killed save by rituals forgotten or hidden from time. Not the Dragon of the Scarlet Armory, with an arsenal of artifacts prepared to refract or render useless whatever an invader tries. Nor even the Dragon of Highvale, whose palace is guarded by thousands of loyal soldiers, clerics, and wizards. Just a dragon who happens to have a horde of value greater than [X], and not too much in the way of defenses. And he's not on the clock, either. He can take time to research, learn more, come up with all the tricks he needs. The dragon may never know that an assassin three planes away is preparing to light him up.

Again -- the wizard can choose whom to fight. The tough 'uns aren't gonna get chosen.
--

As an aside, I have the impression that if you replaced the word "dragon" with some other CR20 critter, folks wouldn't object quite so much. I mean, the strategies presented here work from a mechanical point of view. I just don't think some people like the idea of dragons being whomped on because, well, they're dragons!

--


My understanding of the OP is the supra genius wizard is going to solo a CR20 dragon for his treasure and that includes the tougher CR20 dragons along with the defenseless ones.

I disagree. Normally it is the DM who determines which CR20 dragon you find not the player and if most go to the trouble of making one it won't be a lame one round attack pushover unless the PCs are really clever. The PC can choose not to fight the DM's dragon but that doesn't mean he gets to go find an easier one as the DM can choose not to go to the trouble of making one based on campaign demographics. DM dragons don'[t grow on trees. Time to start reseaching again.

My understanding is CR20 encounters are supposed to be comparable. The CR20 dragon ranks up there with Baphomet Prince of Beasts a demon lord who is also a CR20 encounter.

Would you have a problem with a wizard just blithly stating now that I'm in the Abyss I Timestop, Greater Teleport to Baphomet's lair and cast a few spells and the DM says No you don't?

At least some of that treasure is normally magical so most wizards don't go in casting MDJs or even DBFs both of which could trigger lair traps unless they are sure they are targeting the dragon in the first placeand not a programmed image or simulacrum.

I want to make it clear I never said a level 20 wizard couldn't solo a dragon but Greater Teleporting in Timestopped with DBFs isn't a 100% sure thing IMO.

All it takes is one mistake like mistargeting the dragon who could be observing from a basic level 2 Rope Trick which if dispelled invokes the law of gravity on top of the wizard.

IMO in game it's kind of hard for PCs to determine between a few CRs even with most divinations and avoiding the "tough" monsters. How do you word that in a game context?

IMO the wizard never expounded on how he was locating the dragon and his lair in the first place so teleporting into his lair also seems a little unfeasible in that context.

The dragon is a 1,000+ years old and a genius. He can cast spells like a sorcerer and has lots of feat options. The wizard is supposed to be way smarter but isn't acting like it IMO.

I do not consider it unreasonable to believe that sometime during his life a dragon discovered a few places warded against teleportation magics in the campaign world or built himself one with Craft Wonderous Item. It is a very minor obstacle for a clever player and a free form of treasure for the PC whether the player uses it or not.

A dragon is an acceptable guardian of a minor artifact or two which are generally perceived as useful and valuable are not priced and normally don't affect basic treasure values. No one generally has problems with Demon Lords having artifacts this is a comparable CR encounter. The artificat is sort of the frosting on the cake for defeating the monster. Useful to both the dragon and a PC who overcomes the monster challenge.

blacksabre
2007-04-27, 09:59 AM
To all those still on the "A 20Wizard can take out a 20CR dragon before lunch time..." kick..

I don't care how many spells you have, how many time stops you get, how many DBF etc etc..

The wizard undoing is going to be the "I'm a badass" ego..

How to get into the dragons the lair down that winding cave tunnel quickly and undetected when I can't teleport..?
I know, I'll cast polymorph into an Elder Air elemental, improved invis, maybe cast haste for the extra speed kick, +buff et infnium, timestop.

Flyin at 130,perfect control,
Away I go, coverin 500' per his round, he'll never know what hit him..

Ack, what the hell is that Antimagic shell doing here?..Ow Falling at that speed hurts...ack and what the hell, a Pool of acid, when I'm in a antimagic shell?

Why didn't my scrying see this stuff?

That took 1 minute of my grey matter to to think of a defense for a fast flying, invised, timestopping, buffed wizard intruding on a dragons lair...
Maybe not the best defense, but as I said, I put 1 minute into it

A dragon living for centuries has plenty of time to think of other scenerios and defenses for them.


A Dragon defenses are not just his personal protection, but his defenses around his lair..

Woot Spitum
2007-04-27, 10:51 AM
The wizard undoing is going to be the "I'm a badass" ego..

A Dragon defenses are not just his personal protection, but his defenses around his lair..

First of all ego is the classic dragon weakness (I AM SMAUG!).

Secondly, CR in the monster manual does not take into account traps and defences. Four kobolds is a CR 1 encounter. Four kobolds with cover, surprise, the high ground, traps, ranged weapons, and obstacles seperating them and the party is much tougher, and therefore a higher CR. The same rules apply to every monster in the game, regardless of how high their level. If the dragon has defences, for the CR to remain the same, the dragon will have to be of a lower age category or two.

blacksabre
2007-04-27, 11:09 AM
First of all ego is the classic dragon weakness (I AM SMAUG!).

Secondly, CR in the monster manual does not take into account traps and defences. Four kobolds is a CR 1 encounter. Four kobolds with cover, surprise, the high ground, traps, ranged weapons, and obstacles seperating them and the party is much tougher, and therefore a higher CR. The same rules apply to every monster in the game, regardless of how high their level. If the dragon has defences, for the CR to remain the same, the dragon will have to be of a lower age category or two.

The intelligence of the Dragon is part of the CR IMHO, which means planning

If if the CR of the Dragon changes with additions of items or circumstances to the encounter over and above the raw abilities of the Dragon, then the same must occur for the Wizard.
Therefore, to keep the playing field even to a 20 lvl to a 20 CR ,the dragon and wizard start in an arena 100 yards apart. And the Wizard has no items or armor.

Lain
2007-04-27, 11:14 AM
So what you are saying is that you do not consider a dragon fortified with traps, henchmen/mercenaries and similar things more challenging then one without?

Because the way i read what you write that's exactly what you are saying.

Woot Spitum
2007-04-27, 11:24 AM
The intelligence of the Dragon is part of the CR IMHO, which means planning

The dragon specifically pointed out in the original post has an INT score of 18. A level one human wizard can have that score. A level one Grey Elf Wizard can have a INT score of 20 due to his +2 INT. This means that at level 20 the wizard has an INT score of either 23 or 25. And that doesn't take into account the wizard's age. At level twenty, the wizard has likely advanced to a higher age category, increasing his intelligence even further, still without magic items.

In this case, the wizard is indeed much smarter than the dragon.

lord_khaine
2007-04-27, 11:28 AM
noone has yet explained how you make sure the dragon you are after is actualy only a lv 20 encounter, and not one with fx 7 lvs of sorcerer and a few crafting feats.
or one with a lv 17 wizard cohort, that you dont notice during your scrying because of mind blank.
or one where the lair actualy is 1 huge deathtrap, with 13 CR 23 traps just waiting to spring ect

blacksabre
2007-04-27, 11:29 AM
My arguments are sticking with the original Ops post..

QUOTE
I've seen you post on several threads that wizards rarely have need for money, because they can just go out and solo a CR 20 dragon whenever they need more money.UNQUOTE

Dragons just don't wander the country side waiting to get it on with every passing Wizard..They sit in in they're lair...prtoecting theyr'e hoard or brood..

So in the context of game play, the CR of the entire encounter will be higher then 20, because the dragon will not be found any other way..

But then again , the wizard has this luxory of equiping items and scrying for info to make tactics..which effectively also increases the CR level of the Wizard..

As I said,If you want a straight up Rumble smackdown between a CR20 Dragon and a level 20 wizard..have them both appear naked in an arena..I would think the Dragon would toast the wizard

blacksabre
2007-04-27, 11:34 AM
The dragon specifically pointed out in the original post has an INT score of 18. A level one human wizard can have that score. A level one Grey Elf Wizard can have a INT score of 20 due to his +2 INT. This means that at level 20 the wizard has an INT score of either 23 or 25. And that doesn't take into account the wizard's age. At level twenty, the wizard has likely advanced to a higher age category, increasing his intelligence even further, still without magic items.

In this case, the wizard is indeed much smarter than the dragon.


/agree on the INT thing, but then again , a Dragon has a lot of time to ponder which may or may not account for anything..:)

Rakeesh
2007-04-27, 11:43 AM
Seems to me this is a case of Batman vs. Superman here.

You've got your Wizard, who is superman. On any given day, with minimal preparation, he can do just about anything, and if he stumbles across some enemy, chances are he'll kill him easily if the enemy doesn't expect him.

On the other hand you've got the Dragon, who is Batman. Genius levels of intelligence and wisdom, centuries of lifespan to be a foundation of experience, really good at a lot of different things, a base of operations to plan in, and a vast, vast glittery fortune.

Now, if Superman decides to run up on Batman one day in Gotham while Batman is busting as thug's jaw with his boot, well sure, Superman will almost certainly defeat or kill him very quickly. But if the Wizard decides to take it slow--as a wizard would have to--well then, Batman has all kinds of time to prepare.

Batman, when he has time to prepare, and I quote, "Takes Superman apart like a high school science project."

First the wizard has to find out where the dragon is living. Now, if the dragon is smart-and dragons are-he'll have a network of informants, or maybe even himself in the nearby town shapechanged into a human-doing all sorts of things, but also listening to see if there are any nerdly wizard types asking unpleasant questions.

Then the wizard has to get there. There's a good chance that the dragon will already know the wizard is coming, but the closer and closer the wizard gets, the more likely the dragon will know about his approach. You can't just teleport right into the dragon's lair, because even if you did find out where it was (without the dragon learning of it), chances are the lair is warded against just that sort of intrusion.

Then, after you've found the lair's location (without detection), made your way there (without detection), and entered the lair (without detection), somehow you've got to deal with the overwhelming variety of methods the dragon will (being a genius) have to deal with intruders, both lethal traps and warning the dragon of your approach.

Any DM worth his salt will at least give the dragon a chance to discover the wizard's intention at any number of points. When that happens, the dragon can simply fly at a very high altitude above the wizard, and then just fall on the guy while he sleeps and kill him instantly, if he wants to.

Emperor Demonking
2007-04-27, 11:53 AM
Rakeesh, compared to the 20th level wizard the dragon isn't even intelligent. It is like superman versus batman if superman has double batman's intelligence.

The wizard has low level spells to protect itself from acid or anything like that, and has timestop meaning that the dragon can't use ay of it powers. Magnificent mansion and fore sight stop the wizard from being surprised.

I would like to see if a wizard counld defeat a dragon withoiut timestop.

Rakeesh
2007-04-27, 12:00 PM
Demonking,

Depending on what kind of dragon you're looking at, the intellect of a top-notch dragon ranges from 18 to into the upper 20s I believe, and that's base.

Is a Wizard going to have an Intelligence score of 50? I think not. Or if he is...exactly why wouldn't the dragon have something similar?

Edit: And as for the mansion...OK, why can't the dragon make his lair his mansion? Stay there all the time? Totally invulernable.

Sir Giacomo
2007-04-27, 12:25 PM
OK, have to jump in here again...

...please look further up in the thread. The whole point is that by RAW, the CR 20 dragon does not have all these magical defense means that you (rightfully!) point out it should have vs a lvl 20 magic-user attack. They have up to 13 sorcerer levels, which means no contingency anti magic field, no way to cast antimagics in areas, no means to MMM, no means of mind blank etc.

Now, on the other hand...a level 20 magic-user (wizard or sorcerer) is SUPPOSED to be a Merlin-like person in the campaign, since, if you do not want to go epic, that is basically the level you as a player reach when the campaign is at an end.
Wizards of that level tend to have INT scores that are higher than those of dragons. Maybe lower WIS scores, but in a combat of intellect (what tactics to employ vs what tactics) the CR 20 dragon can well be portrayed as inferior even to an npc lvl 20 wizard.

Where RAW end and fluff begins to matter mechanically is when said high-level wizard (pc or npc) starts to kill off all CR 20 (or lower) creatures with interesting treasure with time stop combos. Campaign logic will dictate that it either leads to a shutdown of the campaign if unopposed* or it will invide countertactics of beings in the campaign of equal or higher level or similar access to the necessary powerspells.
So it needs VERY careful DMing and also playing for the player, but that is the case for all high-level play.

- Giacomo

*Hey, it COULD mean a great way to turn the super pc into a super villain npc and then start a new campaign with lvl 1 characters in a world dominated by the lvl 20 wizard, who is near immortal and killed all powerful beings long ago and tries to hunt down all who are dangerous to him...now where did I hear that kind of story again? Hmm...

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-27, 12:26 PM
18 Intelligence just means that the Dragon rolled a 10. That particular species of Dragon has +8 Intelligence. If the Dragon rolled an 18, it would have 26 Intelligence, as a start. If it devoted some time/resources to getting more Intelligent, it could easily outstrip a Wizard. It will always be 8 points of Intelligence ahead if they're equally equipped. The difference would be like a Level 1 Wizard vs a Commoner in a quiz show. Think Einstein vs Joe Average(well, not really true, since the difference will always be 8 points, which makes up a smaller and smaller % as the numbers get bigger). The Dragon also has far superior Wisdom and Charisma than any Wizard(especially the ever-popular Point-Buy one), making it better at general "common sense" type stuff, and better at convincing others("Hey guys, let's go kill that Dragon over there!" "Screw you, Mr Batman, Sir. Poofypants here wants us to stay in town for a couple of years, get laid, maybe leave some young 'uns for inheriting our quests and stuff.")

Sir Giacomo
2007-04-27, 12:41 PM
Well if you roll for dragon stats...the monster manual entries are the averages; so there are bound to be more intelligent and less intelligent dragons. The wizard could pick the more stupid ones or at least avoid the ultra-geniusses.
The black wyrm dragon of CR 20 has INT 18, WIS 19 and CHR 18. These base INT and WIS can be beaten by a lvl 20 wizard.
The treasure the wyrm has is much less than the 760,000gp limit of the wizard for lvl 20, so it is way left behind in stat-boosting items.

But the (btw very tricky) question of how INT 32 (+6 stat boosted dragon who rolled an "18" to start with your mentioned +8 racial adjustment) vs an INT 36 wizard (emperor tippy certainly knows ways to raise that even higher:smallcool: ) is not really the issue. The issue is, that lvl 20 magics are wielded vs lvl 13 magics (I guess only the brass ancient dragon of CR 20 has a higher level of magic, but at sorcerer lvl 15 still no access to 8th and 9th level spells). And in particular for scrying/protection from scrying and diviniation, those 8th and 9th level spells are key to keep up in the arms race. Not to mention the helplessness vs time stop attacking combos.

Even non-magic pc classes like fighter, rogue or monk are ahead of the poor CR 20 dragon since they have more equipment to ward vs a powerful wizard.

- Giacomo

Jade_Tarem
2007-04-27, 12:46 PM
As before...

From the DMing/gaming standpoint.

No, the wizard shouldn't be able to just warp in and kill any kind of dragon over Mature Adult. I, for one, have anti-teleportation all over the lairs of the greater dragons, plus elementally appropriate traps and guardians all over as well, and a sequence of alarms to let the dragon know something is entering its lair (whether it's in the lair or not!). Also, a large number of my greater dragons have that breath transmutation thing that lets them use the wrong element in their breath weapons and undefined anti-scrying on thier treasure chambers. It just seems reasonable to me that 2,000 year old dragons would have that kind of stuff in place, if not more. I don't think anyone here is arguing that a responsible DM should allow a wizard, even at level 20, to convert the entirety of the race of True Dragons into those magically floating blocks from Super Mario World that give you money when you hit them.

From the standpoint of the pro-wizard people in this debate.

None of that matters, however, in a RAW debate. The dragon is pretty much a statblock in the MM1 and its defenses are no better than it can afford using a relatively small amount of its treasure (dragons = greedy, remember, although again, dragons in my game follow the first rule of the bounty hunter's creed - no amount of money is worth dying for) and its spellcasting abilities. In that sense, the dragons have the Cassandra Complex - even if they know what's coming there's nothing they can do about it, because the wizard can counter it all. No one said 9th level magic was balanced.

From the standpoint of the pro-dragon people in this debate.

A RAW debate is silly because the OP's question was in response to an assertion about a tactic used in gaming which was, itself, a RAW style-counter to a gaming thread's question. (Whew!) Also, the MM1 shouldn't be used to produce cookie-cutter dragons (an opinion, but one that is widely held (including by me) so we'll let it stand) and is rather just the basic skeleton for what should eventually be a draconic encounter - in short, a dragon without DM spice is like a fighter without bonus feats: what's the point?

Did that cover it?

Oh, and a side note to Rakeesh - the wizard does nothing without preparation. This thread may have given you the wrong impression since it involves instances of prolific and rapid spellcasting as well as the use of certain "catch-all" spells like timestop, contingency, and celerity. Preparation is what makes the wizard powerful - without it, he's the weakest full caster.

Inyssius Tor
2007-04-27, 01:00 PM
... Again I've been ninja'd (by a conclusion that ought to end the argument).

Read Jade Tarem's post.

Vyker
2007-04-27, 02:34 PM
I'd like to add something to Jade Tarem's assessment:

The Ingame/Metagame Perspective:
In a truly vibrant and sandbox campaign, the wizard should be able to sit down and research out potential targets which are both rich and unable to defend against him. There is no real internally consistent reason why he can't at least decide to do so and try to do so. He might fail, or things may distract him in the meantime, but those are different from him being artificially and mechanically prevented from doing so.

However, a DM may be understandably upset at the prospect of using dragons as ATM's. If he's not, then all is well and good and enjoy your game, and most especially ignore the next few lines. They bear no relevance to your gaming experience, and far be it from me to distract a fellow gamer from some awesome dragon-killin' action! But if he is, then read on...

Route One: In Which All Things Come to Fulfillment And I Use a Really Pompous Title
The DM, being upset, may let the player get away with the villainous deed. He may then very well let the consequences trickle in, to help dissuade the player from abusing his wizardly powers. Consequences include angry relatives of the bereaved, assassins bent on stealing The Really Cool Item which was in the hoard, and adoring fans who won't leave him alone. Plot, hopefully, will follow, and all will be well.

Route Two: Le Suck
Step 1) The DM, being upset, may "stack" the dragon beyond the RAW. I don't mean traps around the lair. Traps can be circumvented. I mean things like, every dragon the wizard hears about has trouble flying because he's weighted down by so many artifacts, but that's okay, because he never has to move. Why? It's not because his horde of minions does everything for him -- it's because their hordes of minions do everything for him! Oh, also, God comes over on Fridays to play poker, and the dragon has him on speed dial for emergencies. And the cell phone is immune to Time Stop.

Step 2) The player may in turn begin simply turning down the dragons the DM offers, insisting on finding a dragon which meets his specifications, and simultaneously avoiding any plot the DM tries to use to distract the player. After all, the wizard doesn't have to go fight the uberdragon, and only the most railroad plots can force him go along with them (if he refuses even this, go straight to Step 4).

Step 3) This cycle continues until one or another (or even yet another player, bored to tears) finally decides to let volume replace reason.

Step 4) Congratulations. The game has come to a screeching halt.

You lose D&D.

NullAshton
2007-04-27, 02:49 PM
First of all ego is the classic dragon weakness (I AM SMAUG!).

Secondly, CR in the monster manual does not take into account traps and defences. Four kobolds is a CR 1 encounter. Four kobolds with cover, surprise, the high ground, traps, ranged weapons, and obstacles seperating them and the party is much tougher, and therefore a higher CR. The same rules apply to every monster in the game, regardless of how high their level. If the dragon has defences, for the CR to remain the same, the dragon will have to be of a lower age category or two.

CR quite simply does not work that way. The kobolds are a different encounter than the dragons. Wizard on the way to the dragon's lair meets up with the kobolds. Kobolds are somehow a CR 20 encounter. Oh look, two CR 20 encounters one after another. Add two more CR 20 encounters before the big bad dragon, and you have four CR 20 encounters. A full day. One which a wizard couldn't just whiz through.

And if the wizard just teleports to the dragon? Oh look, dragon has their reinforcments that you failed to defeat first come to his rescue.

Indon
2007-04-27, 03:13 PM
The dragon is pretty much a statblock in the MM1 and its defenses are no better than it can afford using a relatively small amount of its treasure (dragons = greedy, remember, although again, dragons in my game follow the first rule of the bounty hunter's creed - no amount of money is worth dying for) and its spellcasting abilities.

I seem to recall a thread in this forum a while back which noted that traps (potentially exceedingly cheesy ones at that) were frighteningly inexpensive for what they did.

This means, of course, that Dragons control the trap market, and thus dictate prices.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-27, 03:26 PM
I love how these "wizards beat anything" threads are contigent on the DM taking a nap while the wizard's player plays with himself.

Cyborg Pirate
2007-04-27, 03:36 PM
I love how these "wizards beat anything" threads are contigent on the DM taking a nap while the wizard's player plays with himself.

It's because they tend to be debates about RAW and an attempt at demonstrating that many things in D&D are poorly written.

When discussing RAW, only rules are relevant. Playstyles, preferences and "what a good DM should do"does not factor into it.

Indon
2007-04-27, 03:44 PM
It's because they tend to be debates about RAW and an attempt at demonstrating that many things in D&D are poorly written.

When discussing RAW, only rules are relevant. Playstyles, preferences and "what a good DM should do"does not factor into it.

Or, in other words, it's an exercise in pointing out how very unlike Monopoly D&D really is.

Cyborg Pirate
2007-04-27, 03:50 PM
Or, in other words, it's an exercise in pointing out how very unlike Monopoly D&D really is.

Not the most intelligent of possible responses, but in a way, yes, you could view it that way.

The reasons for such threads is mostly because some people, to use a twisted analogy, Do believe and post that D&D is very much alike monopoly.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-27, 04:03 PM
It's because they tend to be debates about RAW and an attempt at demonstrating that many things in D&D are poorly written.

When discussing RAW, only rules are relevant. Playstyles, preferences and "what a good DM should do"does not factor into it.

Which is silly. In an attempt to standardize discussion, you remove the DM, which as far as I know, RAW. The DM exists to mitigate metagaming and mediate rule issues. By the RAW, the DM exists as a zeroth law. Why else would he be included in the RAW if games were to be run like "well, the RAW say that if you close your eyes and fall, you have a 50% chance of missing...."

Why bother having a DM?

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-27, 04:03 PM
Not the most intelligent of possible responses, but in a way, yes, you could view it that way.

The reasons for such threads is mostly because some people, to use a twisted analogy, Do believe and post that D&D is very much alike monopoly.

Dude, drop the hostility.

Cyborg Pirate
2007-04-27, 04:16 PM
Which is silly. In an attempt to standardize discussion, you remove the DM, which as far as I know, RAW. The DM exists to mitigate metagaming and mediate rule issues. By the RAW, the DM exists as a zeroth law. Why else would he be included in the RAW if games were to be run like "well, the RAW say that if you close your eyes and fall, you have a 50% chance of missing...."

Why bother having a DM?

It's not about how gamesare being run. It's about how the rules are written and how they could be better. That's it. No DM factors into that, it's just about the product as is sold.

The DM and houserules all come back in when you're talking about an actual game. But these are not discussions about actual games, these are discussion about the rules as we have been sold them.


And do keep in mind that any debate with a random parameter (preferences, 'what ifs', etc) is a pointless one, as there is no common ground to debate on.



Dude, drop the hostility.

No hostility, just a dispassionate observation.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-27, 04:18 PM
Frankly, there are be better uses of a DM's time than making up for poorly designed mechanics... except that those mechanics need fixin'.

Epiphanis
2007-04-27, 04:31 PM
http://pics.livejournal.com/epiphanis/pic/00004wgk

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-27, 04:33 PM
Epiphanis? More like winpiphanis!

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-04-27, 04:53 PM
Yeah, that picture wins the thread.

Cyborg Pirate
2007-04-27, 04:54 PM
*roffles* :smallbiggrin: is that piccie self-drawn E?

Epiphanis
2007-04-27, 05:02 PM
*roffles* :smallbiggrin: is that piccie self-drawn E?


Yes, but mostly traced from the Dragonomicon.

Woot Spitum
2007-04-27, 05:18 PM
CR quite simply does not work that way. The kobolds are a different encounter than the dragons. Wizard on the way to the dragon's lair meets up with the kobolds. Kobolds are somehow a CR 20 encounter. Oh look, two CR 20 encounters one after another. Add two more CR 20 encounters before the big bad dragon, and you have four CR 20 encounters. A full day. One which a wizard couldn't just whiz through.

And if the wizard just teleports to the dragon? Oh look, dragon has their reinforcments that you failed to defeat first come to his rescue.

I didn't say kobolds were a CR 20 encounter. I demonstrated that you could encounter the exact same creature twice and have vastly different challenges. Environment affects challenge rating, somtimes dramatically.

Vyker
2007-04-27, 07:09 PM
E, do you mind if I yoink that picture? That's just... that's just priceless. I think I'm going to make a sticker of it and slap it on my DM screen.

illathid
2007-04-27, 07:21 PM
Seems to me this is a case of Batman vs. Superman here.

I would actually say this is closer to a case of Batman vs. Doctor Doom. Dragons are Batman (Likes black, lives in a cave, has wings/cape) and Wizards are Doctor Doom (Super genius, likes magic, gigantic ego). For the conclusion of the battle one only needs to look at these two links.

Here (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=031016)and Here (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=031018).

Epiphanis
2007-04-27, 07:37 PM
E, do you mind if I yoink that picture?

Go ahead, knock yourself out.

deadseashoals
2007-04-27, 07:59 PM
OK, have to jump in here again...

...please look further up in the thread. The whole point is that by RAW, the CR 20 dragon does not have all these magical defense means that you (rightfully!) point out it should have vs a lvl 20 magic-user attack. They have up to 13 sorcerer levels, which means no contingency anti magic field, no way to cast antimagics in areas, no means to MMM, no means of mind blank etc.

Now, on the other hand...a level 20 magic-user (wizard or sorcerer) is SUPPOSED to be a Merlin-like person in the campaign, since, if you do not want to go epic, that is basically the level you as a player reach when the campaign is at an end.
Wizards of that level tend to have INT scores that are higher than those of dragons. Maybe lower WIS scores, but in a combat of intellect (what tactics to employ vs what tactics) the CR 20 dragon can well be portrayed as inferior even to an npc lvl 20 wizard.

Where RAW end and fluff begins to matter mechanically is when said high-level wizard (pc or npc) starts to kill off all CR 20 (or lower) creatures with interesting treasure with time stop combos. Campaign logic will dictate that it either leads to a shutdown of the campaign if unopposed* or it will invide countertactics of beings in the campaign of equal or higher level or similar access to the necessary powerspells.
So it needs VERY careful DMing and also playing for the player, but that is the case for all high-level play.

- Giacomo

*Hey, it COULD mean a great way to turn the super pc into a super villain npc and then start a new campaign with lvl 1 characters in a world dominated by the lvl 20 wizard, who is near immortal and killed all powerful beings long ago and tries to hunt down all who are dangerous to him...now where did I hear that kind of story again? Hmm...

Please see the Dragon vs. Wizard thread, a CR 20 dragon can get a permanent AMF around itself and have the ability to cast 7th level spells and have 6th level contingent spells.

Lair wards from Draconomicon go a long way towards equalizing magical defenses as well.

EvilElitest
2007-04-27, 08:07 PM
Now, here's the frustrating thing for "wizards can't do that" proponents. The wizard really can. There's always a way, especially when using the really overblown spells like Mordenkainen's Disjunction and TimeStop. It doesn't matter what the dragon does, because he doesn't get to do anything. There are no "tactics" for the dragon because he never gets to act. And the wizard is ambushing the dragon, not the other way around. It's nearly impossible to ambush a level 20 wizard.

Why is that? Why is it impossble to ambush a wizard

Dragon polymorph into something, sneak up, then attack. I don't know (Don't really know the playing field) But just being a wizard doesn't make you suddenly omipotent to everything around you, no more than being a dragon makes you able to detect anything at will
from,
EE

Jack_Simth
2007-04-27, 09:39 PM
Hmm... let's see... Core only Dragon Lair defenses....

Well, a little over half of the dragon varieties can cast Cleric spells, too (Blue, Red, Brass, Bronze, Copper, Gold, Silver). Forbiddance is Cleric-6, and stops most Teleportation tricks cold (in addition to having a little minor blasting included... and Time Stop doesn't help with that, as it's an active area effect). Requires Sorcerer Level 12, which (among those varieties) at CR 20, includes Blue (a CR 19 Very Old blue with an associated level of Sorcerer), Brass, Bronze and Copper. Mage's Private Sanctum stops Divinations cold, and is 5th level, so any Dragon that could know Forbiddance could also know it. Rope Trick is a 2nd level spell, and Permanency is 5th. Permanent Image and Programmed Image are both 6th. Illusory Wall is 4th. A dragon ought to use these to their fullest, with a twisty, maze-like lair (Find the Path is not a Wizard spell, and is not in range of Limited Wish; the Wizard would need a full-blown Wish to get it personally, or would need to lean on another character in some fasion - fellow PC, Leadership, Planar Binding, or some such - and other characters aren't necessarily reliable). Dragons have lots of time to Craft things, and have a fair number of skill points to put wherever. Craft(Traps) is a good choice when the Wizard can't teleport in - the Wizard is forced to take the long way, and can't call for reinforcements easily halfway through (although the Wiz can Dispel/Disjoin the current spot of the Forbiddance, they are layered with single castings rather than one big casting; slightly higher cost, but the added expense is worth the Wizard needing to burn spells taking them all down seperately and sucking the damage for each layer). The Wizard's Detect Magic notes all the magic traps (except those covered by a Magic Aura....) but does absolutely nothing for the crafted mechanical traps (bonus - Traps have their own, seperate CR, and technically don't affect the dragon's wealth as they are seperate encounters; as do minions).

Wizard can't teleport in (important), has severe difficulties getting information on the Dragon's Lair layout, and while going in, takes continuing damage. Also of note is that without Summons (which Forbiddance stops), Wizards have difficulty with self-healing (can still be done - Limited Wish will duplicate the Adept's 5th level Heal spell). The Wizard can of course Dispel a segment of the Forbiddance to Summon up some help for healing... but that will start earing into the Wizard's recources, especially as the core Summons with healing abilities are all 7th+. More likely, the Wizard will try some Shapechange cheddar to bypass everything... but then there's that pesky problem of knowing where you are and where the Dragon (who carries his horde, probably in a portable hole) is hiding.

Oh, and you will need to face a prepared dragon - what, you think you're the first 20th level Wizard who's thought of this? Dragons who don't have such defenses are going to be extinct; that, or they will have relatives who make sure that 20th level Wizards who do this sort of thing are extinct. Either way.

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-28, 12:50 AM
I would actually say this is closer to a case of Batman vs. Doctor Doom. Dragons are Batman (Likes black, lives in a cave, has wings/cape) and Wizards are Doctor Doom (Super genius, likes magic, gigantic ego). For the conclusion of the battle one only needs to look at these two links.

Here (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=031016)and Here (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=031018).

Really? Cos the one I've seen is more like this (http://www.electricferret.com/fights/issue_171.htm).

Jade_Tarem
2007-04-28, 01:11 AM
Why is that? Why is it impossble to ambush a wizard

Dragon polymorph into something, sneak up, then attack. I don't know (Don't really know the playing field) But just being a wizard doesn't make you suddenly omipotent to everything around you, no more than being a dragon makes you able to detect anything at will
from,
EE

Disclaimer: Powerful magic can be used to kill a wizard. I know this - you don't have to tell me. The majority of the time, however, you won't be attacked by archmagi. The following statemets include any and all nonspellcasting opponents and opponents who are limited, more or less, to 7th level and lower spells.

That said, the wizard doesn't need omnipotency.

When the wizard is awake

Any assault is going to be met with Contingency ORS (ORS stands for Otiluke's Resiliant Sphere). It will be retardedly difficult to "sneak up on" a wizard because of the permanent Arcane Sight and Foresight that he'll have running ("Oh look, there's this guy with transmutaton radiating off of him, I think I'll let him get to easy attack range without challenging him!"). If you should get the drop on him, or at least force an initiative roll, then Celerity goes off and he gets to go first. He can follow this up with any number of other spells - from timestop to teleport to disjunction and more. Shapechange, Gate, and a couple other spells (Greater Dimensional Jumper is one of the coolest newer ones, although it isn't as powerful as the rest I've mentioned) also work here. It's really, really hard to beat that. This is to say, within a single round the wizard will be running several strong buffs and will have a few allies with him too, and you have failed to ambush him. To quote Shrek: "This is the part where you run away." And leave your pants.

When the wizard is asleep

He's either on his pocket plane that he created using Geneis, which he has since warded from anyone but him planeshifting into, or he's in Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion, which you can't enter unless you have several levels in some obscure eberron prestige class. BWL mentioned it once. The silver key something something. Either way, you'll have a bear of a time even getting to him (in fact, it's very close to impossible), and even then, you'll have trouble keeping him there and fighting him too.

When the wizard has finshed several battles, and is low on spells, a.k.a. the absolute best time to strike, the duration of which is approximately 2-3 rounds. Out of a day.

Assuming you even know when this is and can get the the wizard right then, chances are the wizard can still leave, and will, once he realizes he's low on power.

But Jade, couldn't you steal the wizard's spellbook or something?

When? You'll have as much trouble with this as you will ambushing him. More, actually, because the one thing you don't do is mess with a powerful wizard's spellbook. 1. It's trapped. 2. He has a spare. Which he will use to hunt you down.

Looking at the dragon entries, several of them have spellcasting capability for 9th level spells, but then it becomes a wizard v. sorcerer debate rather than a wizard v. dragon debate. The Black Wyrm in question actually only goes to 6th level spells, so unless he brings allies I've given him more power than he actually has for the purposes of this post.

Did that clear things up?

illathid
2007-04-28, 01:36 AM
Really? Cos the one I've seen is more like this (http://www.electricferret.com/fights/issue_171.htm).

Thanks, I hadn't seen that before.

Oh, and Jade_Tarem, well done... Well done, indeed.

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-04-28, 02:44 AM
You do realise this comparison is flawed, right? While a 20th level wizard is capable-at the right circumstances and when prepared-of killing a CR 20 dragon all by himself, he is not supposed to kill the CR 20 dragon all by himself. A CR 20 being is supposed to be a challenge requiring 20% of all their resources for four (4) PCs at level 20. The effective party level of a solo lvl 20 wizard is 16. So, the lvl 20 wizard should fight a CR 16 dragon, not a CR 20 one.

That aside, a CR 20 dragon is a 30 HD monster. Dragons have the best HD in the game and the best ability scores, skills and AC as well as flight, SR, powerful natural attacks, breath weapon and innate spellcasting. They are at least equal to a 30th level multiclass character, if not more. Yes, we know, wizards vastly overpower multiclass characters, rogues and meelers at that level. But that doesn't change the fact that you're comparing a level 20 wizard with a level 30 multiclass character-even though the wizard might still win.


Now, to the actual debate. A dragon could fortify himself within his lair with a crapload of traps and all. That is why the wizard with a wand of summon monster would trigger all the traps first with fodder-and a wand of summon monster costs much, much less than the traps. So, traps gone. The dragon might also have minions, right? Ookay, our wizard uses his dominated monsters (which he dominated on previous days seeing as dominate spells have very long durations) to counter the minions. Or, he might use his army of simulacrums. Or a Gate spell. Effectively, with a long time to prepare, the 20th level wizard has stronger magic and more access to minions than the dragon. So, skip the minions-the wizard definitely wins there. With traps and minions out of the way, it is the Wizard versus the Dragon. If the people still insist to taking into accounts traps or minions for this fight-which should not be parts of this encounter anyway-we can assume the dragon has already lost. The wizard can bring to bear 40+ dominated creatures of around CR 15 without a drain to his resources for the fight.

The actual fight is, as it should be, a level 20 wizard versus a CR 20 dragon. No allies or minions or otherwise the wizard would also have his other party members to assist him by the RAW. All with their own minions too. Anyway, here's a tactic:

The Wizard earth-masters, limited wishes or wishes himself before the dragon under a Timestop. He conjures an open Forcecage on himself and Dimensional Lock on the dragon then a widened Antimagic Field on himself. Timestop ends, surprise round. Invoke Magic+Splitray Empowered Enervation. Dragon eats 8 negative levels, no save. Antimagic Field takes care of any immunities. Dragon tries to move away from the DL and teleport away. He does-and the wizard helps himself to all the treasure. Or, he stays and fights. He can't dispel the AMF and Forcecage around the wizard. He can't attack. He can't use magic or his breath weapon. He resorts to an orb spell. Wizard takes some damage-hardly enough to kill him though. The wizard uses his last Invoke Magic and a splitray empowered Enervation. Another 8 negative levels. The dragon uses another orb spell. The wizard dismisses the AMF and throws in a celeritied Flesh to Stone. With a -16 penalty to saves the dragon turns to stone.

That way the wizard unorthodoxically fights from within an AMF and kills the dragon. He spent about 30.000 GP in resources for the fight-27.000 for the Wish scroll and 3.000 for the Invoke Magic spells.

Renegade Paladin
2007-04-28, 04:37 AM
I think this bears repeating:
Anticipate teleportation is all the dragon needs; preferably the greater version. He acts before your time stop goes off, and you die. Or if your time stop is cast before you teleport, it's duration ticks down while you're suspended and you don't know about it, so your timing will be off and your spell will end a round or three before you expect it to. That adds up to a very dead wizard.

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-04-28, 06:17 AM
Anticipate Teleportation does NOT stop Earth Master, Wish, Miracle, Shadow Walk, Dreamwalk, Gate and any other such spells. It only stops Teleportation spells and effects. Wishing or Miracling yourself to a place overcomes any barriers and the other spells do not have the Teleportation descriptor. The only known barriers that can stop travel via Miracle/Wish are a specialised Epic Ward that blocks Wish and Sigil's defences.

Sir Giacomo
2007-04-28, 08:21 AM
Please see the Dragon vs. Wizard thread, a CR 20 dragon can get a permanent AMF around itself and have the ability to cast 7th level spells and have 6th level contingent spells.

Lair wards from Draconomicon go a long way towards equalizing magical defenses as well.

Hmmm...I checked that other thread and the methods discussed there either raised the CR of the dragon (by using rituals, class levels etc.), used epic means for CR 20 (emanation feat to get AMF off and on as free action, permanent) or feats intended for non-dragons (like practiced spellcaster, although this may be one that could work RAW). In core, the CR 20 dragon has no such means, anyhow (since moving outside core you would make all sorts of equipment and prestige class stuff also availalbe for a wizard it is basically not helping much for the CR 20 dragon).

Otherwise, I highly recommend reading Jade Tarem's two recent posts on the issue. In particular the part about separating RAW discussion and fluff discussion.
One more thing, though, to caution about the fluff discussion: BOTH a wizard of lvl 20 AND a dragon of CR 20 are awesome creatures.
However, taking the standard CR description of depleting 20% of a 4-member party's resources, however, you will find out simply that a wizard of lvl 20 is SUPPOSED to be by the RAW 20 times more powerful than a CR 20 dragon when both are fully rested and attack each other! (or even more in favour of the wizard if he surprises the dragon in his lair).

If you want to provide a truly BBEG as a single challenge for your group, you'll have to probably raise the CR substantially, at which RAW point you'll get nicely into the dimensions demanded by everyone for fluff reasons: a mighty dragon, a formidable foe, and incredibly difficult to beat even by a fully rested party (let alone a lone wizard).

- Giacomo

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-28, 10:54 AM
That aside, a CR 20 dragon is a 30 HD monster. Dragons have the best HD in the game and the best ability scores, skills and AC as well as flight, SR, powerful natural attacks, breath weapon and innate spellcasting. They are at least equal to a 30th level multiclass character, if not more.

Second best skills for HD. :P They have the HP and BAB of a Barbarian, the Saves of a Monk, and the Skill points of a Bard. Their class features are:
Casts as Sorceror of about 1/3-1/2 their HD, Flight, SR, growth(with the commensurate bonuses to Str/Con, and +Dex to counter the loss from getting bigger), Attack Options(Crush, Tail Sweep, Wing Buffet), DR 5/magic every few levels, and about a dozen SLAs.

Renegade Paladin
2007-04-28, 12:18 PM
Anticipate Teleportation does NOT stop Earth Master, Wish, Miracle, Shadow Walk, Dreamwalk, Gate and any other such spells. It only stops Teleportation spells and effects. Wishing or Miracling yourself to a place overcomes any barriers and the other spells do not have the Teleportation descriptor. The only known barriers that can stop travel via Miracle/Wish are a specialised Epic Ward that blocks Wish and Sigil's defences.
Why would you use any of those when teleportation would, to your knowledge, suffice?

Jade_Tarem
2007-04-28, 01:02 PM
Why is there this assumption that any tiny mistake on the wizard's part will kill him? If there's one thing a 20th level wizard can do, it's recover from mistakes.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-28, 01:19 PM
Why would you use any of those when teleportation would, to your knowledge, suffice?

Because you know about Anticipate Teleport (as how you can cast it and all)?

Rakeesh
2007-04-28, 02:10 PM
It will be retardedly difficult to "sneak up on" a wizard because of the permanent Arcane Sight and Foresight that he'll have running ("Oh look, there's this guy with transmutaton radiating off of him, I think I'll let him get to easy attack range without challenging him!").

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicAura.htm

On the one hand, True Seeing is described as "sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#polymorph), changed, or transmuted things." But if you look at the wording of Magic Aura you find:

You alter an item’s aura so that it registers to detect spells (and spells with similar capabilities) as though it were nonmagical, or a magic item of a kind you specify, or the subject of a spell you specify.
If the object bearing magic aura has identify (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/identify.htm) cast on it or is similarly examined, the examiner recognizes that the aura is false and detects the object’s actual qualities if he succeeds on a Will save (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#will). Otherwise, he believes the aura and no amount of testing reveals what the true magic is.

So you've got a contradiction here. On the one hand, True Seeing mentions--once--that it sees through illusions. On the other hand, Magic Aura says twice and quite specifically that the only way to see through its illusion is to use identify on it and succeed at a Will save, and then goes on to say that if you don't do this, no amount of testing pierces the illusion.

And that right there is a level one spell even bards can cast.

Jade_Tarem
2007-04-28, 03:05 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicAura.htm

On the one hand, True Seeing is described as "sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#polymorph), changed, or transmuted things." But if you look at the wording of Magic Aura you find:

So you've got a contradiction here. On the one hand, True Seeing mentions--once--that it sees through illusions. On the other hand, Magic Aura says twice and quite specifically that the only way to see through its illusion is to use identify on it and succeed at a Will save, and then goes on to say that if you don't do this, no amount of testing pierces the illusion.

And that right there is a level one spell even bards can cast.

So?

You still haven't explained the sequence of moves that will get you past Foresight, ContingencyORS, Celerity, and Timestop.

Rakeesh
2007-04-28, 03:14 PM
I wasn't trying to at this point. I'm just pointing out that it's quite likely--both by the RAW and by DM decision--that it wouldn't be difficult at all to sneak up up a L20 wizard.

But...Foresight means you cannot sneak attack the wizard. Otherwise, for the purposes of an ambush, it just makes a Wizard slightly more difficult to ambush. As for Resilient Sphere, easily handled. You've got Dispel Magic, or a variety of items, that can destroy it and then the Wizard is without both contingency (one of his most powerful, life-saving spells I think we can all agree) and his personal shield.

Time Stop is, as always, broketastictly difficult to get around, but let's suppose the ambusher, has a nice AMF ready to go? Then it won't even matter if he's running Magic Aura or not, because he can sneak up on the Wizard and all he has to do is get within 10' of the wizard...or, better yet, throw an AMF generating item at the wizard, get to the wizard in the same round, and bam.

Jade_Tarem
2007-04-28, 03:21 PM
I wasn't trying to at this point. I'm just pointing out that it's quite likely--both by the RAW and by DM decision--that it wouldn't be difficult at all to sneak up up a L20 wizard.

But...Foresight means you cannot sneak attack the wizard. Otherwise, for the purposes of an ambush, it just makes a Wizard slightly more difficult to ambush. As for Resilient Sphere, easily handled. You've got Dispel Magic, or a variety of items, that can destroy it and then the Wizard is without both contingency (one of his most powerful, life-saving spells I think we can all agree) and his personal shield.

Time Stop is, as always, broketastictly difficult to get around, but let's suppose the ambusher, has a nice AMF ready to go? Then it won't even matter if he's running Magic Aura or not, because he can sneak up on the Wizard and all he has to do is get within 10' of the wizard...or, better yet, throw an AMF generating item at the wizard, get to the wizard in the same round, and bam.

You're giving this dragon an awful lot of actions per round.

You will, at best, be able to neutralize maybe two of those defenses I mentioned? Dispel Magic isn't the easiest thing in the world to do. In fact, It will be rather difficult for the dragon to accomplish, especially the dragons that don't have 19 caster levels.

Being able to polymorph/dispel magic/activate some AMF item/move/ attack all in one round - is 5 actions. The dragon would need a timestop himself, espcially as the wizard wins on initiative (celerity - or just the fact that the dragon has a really bad initiative modifier) and as such your best bet is a surprise round, during which you get one action instead of the usual two.

And this isn't even counting PrC's. Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil could trump all of that.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-28, 03:26 PM
I wasn't trying to at this point. I'm just pointing out that it's quite likely--both by the RAW and by DM decision--that it wouldn't be difficult at all to sneak up up a L20 wizard.

But...Foresight means you cannot sneak attack the wizard. Otherwise, for the purposes of an ambush, it just makes a Wizard slightly more difficult to ambush. As for Resilient Sphere, easily handled. You've got Dispel Magic, or a variety of items, that can destroy it and then the Wizard is without both contingency (one of his most powerful, life-saving spells I think we can all agree) and his personal shield.
At least you could read spelsl before talkign abotu them. Magic Aura has a target of "One touched object weighing up to 5 lb./level" meaning that you can't cast it on a creature.


Time Stop is, as always, broketastictly difficult to get around, but let's suppose the ambusher, has a nice AMF ready to go? Then it won't even matter if he's running Magic Aura or not, because he can sneak up on the Wizard and all he has to do is get within 10' of the wizard...or, better yet, throw an AMF generating item at the wizard, get to the wizard in the same round, and bam.
Make a build that can get within 10 feet of the wizard while then having a round of actions to take. And that isn't a spell casting class.

Oh and find me where in hte over 80 3.5 books WoTC has published an AMF item exists.

Rakeesh
2007-04-28, 03:33 PM
I did read about the spell, however I didn't pay close enough attention. My mistake. Still, the spell could be cast on all the possessions of the dragon, eh?

I wasn't talking about the dragon being able to do all of that in one round, obviously. *shrug*&

Renegade Paladin
2007-04-28, 06:31 PM
Why is there this assumption that any tiny mistake on the wizard's part will kill him? If there's one thing a 20th level wizard can do, it's recover from mistakes.
A mistake that lands Mr. d4 HD a full attack from a dragon is one that will in all probability kill him.
Because you know about Anticipate Teleport (as how you can cast it and all)?
And you know that the dragon has it, and that the dragon is using it? Or do you burn 5k XP whenever you want to go somewhere?

Jade_Tarem
2007-04-28, 07:22 PM
Well, yes. But a wizard that lets a dragon get a full attack on his unshielded form is a wizard that deserves to die. At level 20, it's so easy to avoid that kind of thing that a wizard in that situation is just being sloppy.