Fixing a broken campaign

[RBVakarian]

So we have eight players in our campaign:
Human Wind Oracle
Samsaran Life Oracle
Tiefling Wizard
Elf Alchemist
Tengu Scout
Elf Slayer
Dwarf Inquisitor - NG
Catfolk Ninja

The group recently took down a dragon despite not bring up to par for the fight. The King who was being plagued by the dragon, and gave them all magical items in exchange for their service, so they head back to the town where they had killed the dragon. And the townsfolk were helping clean up, The Tengu finds the Thieve Guild master and asks him if he can get information and the master says for a price. As the Tengu is playing the " We killed the dragon" card, the Inquisitor just walks up and starts attacking the Guild master. So the Guild master takes a few hits, and then his body guard steps in and starts attacking the dwarf. The Dwarf ends up dying. The Oracle runs over there and tries to bargain for the diamonds for a rez spell, the Guild understandably doesn't want to give them a discount. So then the Dwarf's palyer. Rage-Quits.

It gets to the point where, by DM Fiat, i turn back the clock and give him an extra chance. He still refuses to play, and so the Slayer, Life Oracle, and Scout ride off into the sunset. The rest of the group looks bewildered as their players get upset. and the session ends a few hours early.

Is there any way to salvage this at all?

[Geddy2112]

Uh, What?
The player just attacked an NPC for no reason? Then is surprised when the NPC and the NPC's bodyguards fight back? Then is mad that their character died? They made a choice, and the choice had consequences. I would not have fiated their character back into existence, but you gave them a second chance and they are still mad? Why? I really don't understand what drove this set of choices or why the player is all that mad. Nobody in the group seemed to be mad about the player's actions, even trying to res the character. Is the group mad because the player quit, or because the party split, or just because it got heated?

It was a bit poor form for a few characters to leave the rest behind but this is far from broken. If the dwarf player no longer wants to play, then they don't have to come back. If they want, they can roll a new character. Ask everybody as players if they want to continue, and then just go on without them if they don't want to join. Just put the remaining PC's back together and continue on with whatever adventure they are going for.

[Mindtour]

At this point, you still have 7 players, which is more than enough to continue on a campaign. This seems like a good opportunity for a few players to mature because after all, one of the PCs just (in your own words) walked up and started attacking an NPC. You can either talk with the Dwarf Inquisitor and try to figure out his reasoning in all of this, or pick up and try to move along with a more-than-functional group of 4-7.

[ksbsnowowl]

Yeah, acting like a rude imbecile to someone in authority/power is likely to get you killed. Quite immature. I would not have retconned the dwarf back to life.

Geddy's advice seems good. Talk to the players, see who wants to keep playing, then carry on with those players. Probably give them a chance to make new characters if they want, depending upon what the remaining party composition looks like.

[Vrakk]

One of the most important things I learned to do as a DM is to ensure that the players know that there is always someone/something better. I freely allow them to do/attempt anything they want but they know that there are consequences. If the player just started attacking a Guild Master then he should know that there is a large chance of failure - particularly if the attack is not planned out and in front of guards/allies.

[Geddy2112]

One of the most important things I learned to do as a DM is to ensure that the players know that there is always someone/something better. I freely allow them to do/attempt anything they want but they know that there are consequences. If the player just started attacking a Guild Master then he should know that there is a large chance of failure - particularly if the attack is not planned out and in front of guards/allies.

+1 to this. I always have some stronger NPC's running around in any campaign at any level. Not plot armored monsters that cannot be killed, but things that are obviously stronger to punish create realistic reactions to the actions of thoughtless murderhobos players who believe actions don't have consequences. It would be one thing if the PC attacked what appeared to be a level 0 commoner which turned out to be a level 20 monk that quivering palmed him to death instantly, but this was a pretty clear scenario where a direct assault is a bad idea.
Guild master, in their guild, filled with fellow guild members. Multiple red flags that say "this is not a fight you will leave alive, and certainly not if you try to do this alone."

[jiriku]

Honestly, in every instance where I have had a player who refused to accept character death, removing that player from the group made the game a much better experience. Your problem player is just that, a problem player.

[Hal0Badger]

If I understand correctly, your 4 players left, one of them actually rage-quitting. I don't know the details (their power level, character levels or dwarf's intentions for attacking Guild Master) but at this point, talk to your players and continue with the ones still want to play. You can decrease the CR of encounters until you find replacements or may continue with 4 players, depending on your taste.

For a better advice, if you can give more details it would be quite nice. Hope this helps.

[prufock]

Sounds like you have one less crybaby in the group.

Why did three other characters quit (assuming from the "ride into the sunset" line)? Invite them back, if you want, depending on the details around them quitting. It seems you could still have a 7-player group. Even without them, you have a 4-player group, which is the generally-expected "standard" party size.

[RBVakarian]

If I understand correctly, your 4 players left, one of them actually rage-quitting. I don't know the details (their power level, character levels or dwarf's intentions for attacking Guild Master) but at this point, talk to your players and continue with the ones still want to play. You can decrease the CR of encounters until you find replacements or may continue with 4 players, depending on your taste.

For a better advice, if you can give more details it would be quite nice. Hope this helps.

Character Level: 12 after killing the dragon
Power Level: Due to the amount of players, only one magic item at this point, ( a decent one, but still)
Dwarf's Intentions: Don't know. He won't divulge.

The whole thing just left a bad taste in my mouth. I make encounters difficult, but usually death only happens due to stupid choices. But this guy is usually on his phone when the attention isn't on him, and despite playing longer is behind the learning curve.
If it was anyone else, the assassin probably would have done regular sneak attack damage rather than a death attack. But his character has continually threatened the Guild Master without reason, or because he's 'greedy'.

The other Players who rode off into the sunset, the one was his character's friend. So there's nothing left for him here. and the others went with him because they didn't want him to go alone.

[ksbsnowowl]

The other Players who rode off into the sunset, the one was his character's friend. So there's nothing left for him here. and the others went with him because they didn't want him to go alone.

So the three other characters rode off into the sunset, but the players of those characters did not? So you have one player who rage-quit, and seven players remaining?

I've never had any problem with a player retiring a character because they were bored with it, or the character's arc had come to an end. Just have those three players make new characters, and keep playing with the four characters that have remained.

[RBVakarian]

Well, the Tengu's Player was not happy, and the Oracle that went with them is his Wife.

I'm not for sure how the players feel cause i'm giving everyone a bit of time to cool down. It just seems like they are set on their characters going to this other town that they wrote for their backstory, and the other players are fine in the town they are at. But i can't DM two places at once.

[ksbsnowowl]

But i can't DM two places at once.
If the players that "left" (still unclear what players you have remaining, or not) can change game nights, why not run two games in parallel? You've got the number of players to pull it off.

What one group does might affect the world, and have repercussions on the other group, and vice versa. It could be interesting ... and might lead to the Head of Vecna.

[RBVakarian]

I'm still unclear on if they left, but after their characters left the town. The players packed up their stuff and left.

The problem is i don't know how to tell them that consequences happen and i can't coddle them without sounding like a ****.

I could continue to DM the people that stayed, but i am friends with the people that left; and i don't want this to be the schism that ends friendships and stuff.

On my fault, i did know that the player of the Dwarf has a temper, so i probably should have just mortally wounded him or something (He's the player that needs healing when he's at 51 out of 79 HP)

I'm just not for sure what to do, because there was some finality in them riding off in the sunset.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Then just let it go, maybe.

Do whatever you'd do if you and this person had an issue over something else. Have a chat and see what comes of it.

[ksbsnowowl]

When did the three players that didn't rage-quit seem to start getting upset? 1) When the dwarf was killed? 2) When you used DM-fiat to bring him back from the dead?

I'd say the best bet is to e-mail the three and get their take on the situation. I'm assuming this happened over the weekend, so maybe waiting until tomorrow, or late tonight, to send the e-mail would give them a little more time to cool off.

Depending on which of the above was the impetus of their leaving, once you determine which it is, I would make one of two points in follow-up emails:

1) I would make sure you let them know that actions in game should have consequences, just like in the real world, and that insulting a guild leader in his guildhouse is a good way to paint a very big target on your back, and you were having the guild leader react appropriately to the dwarf's (repeated) insults.

2) Apologize, stating that the situation was unexpected, and you reacted in a way to try and defuse the resentment, but that it was wrong, and actions should have consequences.

Ask their input on what they would like to see going forward. Were they disappointed in the direction the game was going? Maybe shift the current plot to the town they wanted to visit that dealt with their back-stories. Let the current plot lay fallow for a while, and come back to it after four or five sessions.

But, the best course forward is to talk with the three players that got up and left after the fourth one rage-quit. An email is a decent way to do that.

[Mindtour]

I'm still unclear on if they left, but after their characters left the town. The players packed up their stuff and left.

The problem is i don't know how to tell them that consequences happen and i can't coddle them without sounding like a ****.

I could continue to DM the people that stayed, but i am friends with the people that left; and i don't want this to be the schism that ends friendships and stuff.

On my fault, i did know that the player of the Dwarf has a temper, so i probably should have just mortally wounded him or something (He's the player that needs healing when he's at 51 out of 79 HP)

I'm just not for sure what to do, because there was some finality in them riding off in the sunset.

You'll get the standard response of "speak with them". At best, you keep playing with all of your friends. Worst, you lose a few immature players. At the least, they need to understand that it's a game with consequences. If they don't understand that, why are you using a rule set at all? May I get nosey and ask the ages of the players that left?

[ksbsnowowl]

May I get nosey and ask the ages of the players that left?
Yeah, this will greatly inform the appropriate course of action.

[RBVakarian]

When did the three players that didn't rage-quit seem to start getting upset? 1) When the dwarf was killed?


It was number 1.

I'd be willing to incorporate this town, but when i asked for details to build it. They told me it was already built, so i didn't have to worry about it. I'd like to make something happen there, but apparently they own the city (as players, not characters)

[RBVakarian]

May I get nosey and ask the ages of the players that left?

Dwarf- 25
Tengu- 25
Elf Slayer-28?
Oracle- 28?

I'm actually the second youngest at 24. I just have a natural grasp of numbers due to my 9-5, so I'm DM by default cause i know the rules. as far as the ones who stayed.

Ninja- 18
Alchemist-29
Wind Oracle - 30
Wizard-29

[Demidos]

Doesn't sound like the funnest group to play with. How do they expect you to DM if you don't even know whats in the city?

On the probable chance that you value them in some capacity (as friends or players) and assuming you want them back, I would send an email apologizing for the rift and telling them that in the suddenness of the situation, the first logical thing that came to your mind was for the guards to defend themselves and you didnt realize it would be such a big deal, and that you apologize for making them mad. Then try to figure out exactly WHAT caused this --
1) Because you killed a PC?
2) Because Mr. Fighter is very touchy and he had a terrible week and they thought it was a jerk move OOC?
3) Because the guild master was ''unreasonably powerful'', considering they had just slain a dragon?
4) They had cake back at their house and really wanted an excuse to go eat it?

Finding out WHY they got so angry is paramount to actually fixing the problem. Some people are just too prickly to be able to game with, but I leave that part of it up to your good judgement. Regardless of whether the internet thinks your friends shouldve done ____ instead, if you're having fun its fun.

[RBVakarian]

Well, as far as the dragon goes, they picked a fight with a CR20 at level 10, so i had to gimp the dragon a bit to keep from a TPK to begin with. The Wizard was probably the smartest, she turned into an Earth Elemental weighing in at 875lbs and Dropped onto his wing bone, after dimension Dooring above him, and letting Gravity help her. That crippled it and caused it to crash into the town's castle causing more damage, and then it couldn't attack with it's wings. After that, me making it use spells so it could only attack once per turn, and a couple of good saves on their part, they barely survived.

[ksbsnowowl]

Demidos has some good advice ^



I'd be willing to incorporate this town, but when i asked for details to build it. They told me it was already built, so i didn't have to worry about it. I'd like to make something happen there, but apparently they own the city (as players, not characters)

Okay, so the three (or four) players collaborated to make up a city that they came from. I presume this either got the OK from you, or was instigated by you at the time of character creation ("Sure, you can all be from the same city; name it and give me a few details about it.")

But when you say "they, as players, own the city," what exactly do you mean? They know all the information about the politics and intrigue going on... but you don't? If that's the case, I can understand why you would be reluctant to set any adventures there.

I can easily see a situation where a DM has his players make up a few details of the town they are from (city name, type of government, major economic factors, the name of the ruler), but much beyond that, if I'm going to set any adventures there, I need to have free reign to make a plot that the players don't know anything about to start with. I'm getting the sense this isn't the case, given the "they own it" thing...

[ksbsnowowl]

Well, as far as the dragon goes, they picked a fight with a CR20 at level 10, so i had to gimp the dragon a bit to keep from a TPK to begin with.You shouldn't have done that. That's your problem. There ARE things more powerful than the PC's, and they WILL kill them if they provoke them. But you didn't teach them that...

What you should have done... Knowledge (Arcana) should have been able to tell them approximately how old the dragon is (or at least how many HD it has). If they don't have ranks in Kn (Arcana), well, that's their problem. The Wizard should have a +15 or so to the check. I'm guessing it was either an Old Red or a Wyrm Black? Let's say he got an average roll of 25. Given the varying age categories I would at least allow that to ID the type of dragon, and hint that a 15 HD black dragon is only Medium, and a 15 HD red dragon is only Large (compared to Gargantuan in either the Red or Black's case, at CR 20). That should tell them the dragon is way out of their league.


The Wizard was probably the smartest, she turned into an Earth Elemental weighing in at 875lbs and Dropped onto his wing bone, after dimension Dooring above him, and letting Gravity help her. Did you give the dragon the appropriate Reflex save to avoid a falling object? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19402110&postcount=15) A CR 20 dragon should curb stomp a group of 10th level PC's.

I think your problem stems from an uneven approach to DM'ing. You just put them through a situation where you taught them they could insult and antagonize something that should be WAY too hard for them, and you weren't going to let them die in that situation, so why should they expect that you would kill one of them when they insult the Guildmaster, who is a lot less fearsome than a Gargantuan dragon?

[RBVakarian]

But when you say "they, as players, own the city," what exactly do you mean? They know all the information about the politics and intrigue going on... but you don't? If that's the case, I can understand why you would be reluctant to set any adventures there.



I haven't received their official backstory yet, but I knew the name of the town and just that. I was like "Well, give me an idea and i'll build something." and they were like. No, it's already built. You don't have to do anything. and I was all "Well, i can come up with an adventure" and They were all "We know the goings in and out." So, le sigh...

As far a s the (Green) Dragon, I gave them multiple hints it was too strong, and to tuck and run, but they were oblivious to these. I'm pretty for sure that they didn't realize that in a fair fight they would die. So, in the moment, i gimped him to continue the game. I realize now, that was probably a bad idea.

I just didn't expect them to have so much Hubris afterwards to basically throw around their weight to get what they wanted.

As far as to why they got it's attention;
They had stolen a Spell Book from the Dragon's minions, and so he sent more minions after it. They went searching for the BBEG, not realizing how BB he really was.

[RBVakarian]

Did you give the dragon the appropriate Reflex save to avoid a falling object? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19402110&postcount=15) A CR 20 dragon should curb stomp a group of 10th level PC's.


I did not. I had the wizard roll to hit the wing with a series of checks

[icefractal]

I haven't received their official backstory yet, but I knew the name of the town and just that. I was like "Well, give me an idea and i'll build something." and they were like. No, it's already built. You don't have to do anything. and I was all "Well, i can come up with an adventure" and They were all "We know the goings in and out." So, le sigh...That really sounds like they don't want to play, but are too polite / socially incompetent to say so. Unless they're telling you strongly that they do want to keep playing, I'd assume they've left the game for the time being.

And if they do want to play, put the onus on them to get involved. "Run a game for us, but in a setting that we've created and won't tell you about" is not a workable concept.

[Nibbens]

The whole thing just left a bad taste in my mouth. I make encounters difficult, but usually death only happens due to stupid choices. But this guy is usually on his phone when the attention isn't on him, and despite playing longer is behind the learning curve.

Okay, I know there are several extraneous reasons why the Guild would treat the character worse than the others. However, could your emotions maybe have gotten in the way of your good judgement? The dice know, I've done this a couple times and have had to eat crow because of it. The above quote makes me feel that maybe you might not have acted with all due fairness - even if you actually meant to.

If the player feels like he's being targeted because of this, it could cause the "he won't divulge" attitude that is being mentioned here.

[ksbsnowowl]

Well, it looks like we may have identified the source of the disagreeing points of view. I'd email them and ask if that is why they are upset, and explain that the dragon really should have been a lot harder than he was, and you had given several hints that they needed to back off. You thought you'd be saving the game by toning him down on the fly, but instead it seems to have made some characters feel a little too invincible, which led to the death of the dwarf. You can understand how the dwarf may have thought nothing could touch him, and it drove him to aggressive actions he might otherwise not have taken. It's unfortunate, but it is what it is. How would they like to proceed?

Also, yeah, the whole town they own situation... that's going to be a no-win situation for you. In the future don't let it get that far, I guess. Player input is good, but the details should be left to the DM, or at least an understanding that the DM might change things, because player knowledge of everything happening in that town... sure doesn't make me want to run adventures in that town...

[RBVakarian]

Yeah, makes me want to run modules from now on. Then everything is scaled a bit better




Okay, I know there are several extraneous reasons why the Guild would treat the character worse than the others. However, could your emotions maybe have gotten in the way of your good judgement? The dice know, I've done this a couple times and have had to eat crow because of it. The above quote makes me feel that maybe you might not have acted with all due fairness - even if you actually meant to.

If the player feels like he's being targeted because of this, it could cause the "he won't divulge" attitude that is being mentioned here.

Yeah, I've been pondering that today. I might have to eat that same crow. I've been playing for 2 years now, and I've never seen a NG character just do that without provocation.

On the flip side, playing on his phone and watching videos while others are trying to role play may have made me want to exact a little justice. And that caused the game to implode...

[ComaVision]

Yeah, makes me want to run modules from now on. Then everything is scaled a bit better


There are often creatures that aren't meant to be fought head-on in modules as well. The mentality that you can take on anything in the world is a player problem, imo.

[RBVakarian]

There are often creatures that aren't meant to be fought head-on in modules as well. The mentality that you can take on anything in the world is a player problem, imo.

Yeah, No one realizes that retreat is a viable action. I hate when a player complains of a games difficulty because they can't curbstomp everything. It's supposed to be an adventure, and that doesn't mean easy.

[ksbsnowowl]

For an example of what WotC themselves have put in modules, look to The Forge of Fury, an adventure for 3rd - 5th level PC's... and it contains a Roper. Once it has you, retreat isn't a ver viable option...

In 3.0 (when TFoF was published) Ropers were CR 10. In 3.5 they were upped to CR 12. The only way to get out of that encounter alive is to talk your way out. My players nearly went gung-ho into a TPK, except one player was smart enough to trying talking to the thing.

[RBVakarian]

For an example of what WotC themselves have put in modules, look to The Forge of Fury, an adventure for 3rd - 5th level PC's... and it contains a Roper. Once it has you, retreat isn't a ver viable option...

How are you supposed to hit an SR of 27 at that level?

[ComaVision]

How are you supposed to hit an SR of 27 at that level?

You aren't. Either stay out of that area or give the Roper whatever he/she/it wants.

[danzibr]

The whole on-the-phone thing is troublesome. I've had players like this. I wonder if he really cares for the game, or just does it to socialize.

Ya know, if a NG character randomly attacks a (presumably) non-evil NPC in his stronghold without provocation, it seems like he isn't into the game/doesn't care about his character.

[The Evil DM]

Back in the day, before we had this thing called 2nd edition, when characters marched uphill through the snow entering the Tomb of Horrors like lemmings we didn't have these issues. Characters died left and right but if you made it to 8th level the DM's taught you the "REAL MAGIC"

There was none of this talk to the players and hold hands while singing kumbaya. DM's kept a real morning star under the table just for the players who throw a piss fit.

Player: You mercilessly slaughtered my character I took a whole 10 minutes rolling up and have happily played for the last two hours.
GM: You want some cheese with that whine?

You punks just don't know how to take failure with a stiff upper lip and like it. I blame the school systems for giving out ribbons to every participant. That dead dwarf should get a last place ribbon pinned to his bloated corpse.

Sarcasm aside. Players can have a bad day, but having dealt with players that have "Anger" issues there are more deep seated problems and it is up to you whether or not you choose to associate with such people. I have consciously made the choice that I will not associate with people who lack self-control and a modicum of social skills. As DM I am there to provide a game for the players that want to be there. If you don't want to be there (on phone, playing video games, or whatever else) then I will ask you to leave.

There can be spill over with loyalties between people, you just have to decide what your line is and stick to it. Some people are much more accepting of behaviors I call intolerable but once you establish that line it is pretty easy to add them to the rules of the game, such as No taking off your shoes and chewing on toenails during combat - This is not Sarcasm. It Really Happened -

The comments about players owning a city. You let them have too much leeway on their backgrounds. You have to know when to reel things in.

[RBVakarian]

The comments about players owning a city. You let them have too much leeway on their backgrounds. You have to know when to reel things in.

Yeah, i really wasn't aware the city was built until that session, they had just mentioned in passing like a player does. And then when it came up they were like "Here it is"

Edit: Also, +1 for that Spoiler text.

[Nibbens]

There can be spill over with loyalties between people, you just have to decide what your line is and stick to it. Some people are much more accepting of behaviors I call intolerable but once you establish that line it is pretty easy to add them to the rules of the game, such as No taking off your shoes and chewing on toenails during combat - This is not Sarcasm. It Really Happened

First of all, that's pretty impressive - I'm a little over 30 and I can't get my foot into my mouth, let alone want to.

Secondly, figuring out where that line is and how to implement it is pretty important. I had to deal with this as well (Well, not the toenail chewing (I mean, I'm seriously impressed with this! lol.)). players looking at their phones during combat is always annoying and even disrespectful to a DM.

[Susano-wo]

Yeah, first mistake was definitely coddling them with the dragon fight. Well, ok, from what you have described, that is your only mistake. The inquisitor picked a fight with the guild leader, and lost. The Thieves Guild leader. Not the pacifists guild leader. Unless there is some other factor some..shall we say maturing...is in order. :smallsigh:

And as far as them knowing all the ins and outs of that city...no they don't. You, as the DM, know whatever there is to know about that city(or have the right to in any case), and are in charge of running it. Though I agree that it sounds like they are just making excuses instead of just saying they don't want to play anymore.

[The Evil DM]

First of all, that's pretty impressive - I'm a little over 30 and I can't get my foot into my mouth, let alone want to.

Secondly, figuring out where that line is and how to implement it is pretty important. I had to deal with this as well (Well, not the toenail chewing (I mean, I'm seriously impressed with this! lol.)). players looking at their phones during combat is always annoying and even disrespectful to a DM.

Oh I got another one.

Way back before my kids were born (they are 15 and 17 now) my wife and I would host once to twice a week for groups of local gamers. There was one player. Lets call him Jimmy just because Timmy is so used up.

Well we were playing a normal game of 2nd ed at that time. - This was approx. 1996 - there were 8 players and myself. The group is involved in a heavy debate amongst themselves and I am simply observing the conversation. As I watch I see Jimmy sitting across from me with his right index finger jammed a full two knuckles into his nose. Jimmy was vigorously scrapping his nasal cavity in a desperate attempt to reach brain matter. I begin to stare at this train wreck about to happen with my mouth slightly agape.

As I observe this extended session of nose mining, the other members of the group notice I am staring at Jimmy. One by one they stop talking and join in on the lookieloo action.

The room falls totally silent. For at least another 10 seconds, Jimmy obliviously mines away with cross eyed focus on where finger intersects with face.

THEN....

Jimmy's finger emerges from its hiding place and it is now adorned with a glorious crown of nose gold. If it were to be compared with diamonds it would have been at least 20 carats. It huge....

Jimmy's cross eyed focus shifts to that tempting warm piece of golden goo. Jimmy spends a few seconds in silence examining this treasure unaware of the gaze of those around him.

THEN....

Jimmy's mouth opens and he jams that thing all the way back into the deep recesses of his throat - savoring its salty goodness.

and all at once everyone yes "DAMN JIMMY!"

[Nibbens]

Oh I got another one.

Way back before my kids were born (they are 15 and 17 now) my wife and I would host once to twice a week for groups of local gamers. There was one player. Lets call him Jimmy just because Timmy is so used up.

Well we were playing a normal game of 2nd ed at that time. - This was approx. 1996 - there were 8 players and myself. The group is involved in a heavy debate amongst themselves and I am simply observing the conversation. As I watch I see Jimmy sitting across from me with his right index finger jammed a full two knuckles into his nose. Jimmy was vigorously scrapping his nasal cavity in a desperate attempt to reach brain matter. I begin to stare at this train wreck about to happen with my mouth slightly agape.

As I observe this extended session of nose mining, the other members of the group notice I am staring at Jimmy. One by one they stop talking and join in on the lookieloo action.

The room falls totally silent. For at least another 10 seconds, Jimmy obliviously mines away with cross eyed focus on where finger intersects with face.

THEN....

Jimmy's finger emerges from its hiding place and it is now adorned with a glorious crown of nose gold. If it were to be compared with diamonds it would have been at least 20 carats. It huge....

Jimmy's cross eyed focus shifts to that tempting warm piece of golden goo. Jimmy spends a few seconds in silence examining this treasure unaware of the gaze of those around him.

THEN....

Jimmy's mouth opens and he jams that thing all the way back into the deep recesses of his throat - savoring its salty goodness.

and all at once everyone yes "DAMN JIMMY!"

Mother of... Wow. Just wow.

[RBVakarian]

Yeah, first mistake was definitely coddling them with the dragon fight. Well, ok, from what you have described, that is your only mistake. The inquisitor picked a fight with the guild leader, and lost. The Thieves Guild leader. Not the pacifists guild leader. Unless there is some other factor some..shall we say maturing...is in order. :smallsigh:

And as far as them knowing all the ins and outs of that city...no they don't. You, as the DM, know whatever there is to know about that city(or have the right to in any case), and are in charge of running it. Though I agree that it sounds like they are just making excuses instead of just saying they don't want to play anymore.

The Thieves Guild leader has been pretty agreeable. A zombie swarm was coming to the town and after the PCs asked, he hid the civilians in his underground arena, only asked for 1GP per person, not to be paid by the players unless they wanted too. Just money going from one of my hands to the other, because that's how a Thieves Guild would play it.

[danzibr]

Oh I got another one.

Way back before my kids were born (they are 15 and 17 now) my wife and I would host once to twice a week for groups of local gamers. There was one player. Lets call him Jimmy just because Timmy is so used up.

Well we were playing a normal game of 2nd ed at that time. - This was approx. 1996 - there were 8 players and myself. The group is involved in a heavy debate amongst themselves and I am simply observing the conversation. As I watch I see Jimmy sitting across from me with his right index finger jammed a full two knuckles into his nose. Jimmy was vigorously scrapping his nasal cavity in a desperate attempt to reach brain matter. I begin to stare at this train wreck about to happen with my mouth slightly agape.

As I observe this extended session of nose mining, the other members of the group notice I am staring at Jimmy. One by one they stop talking and join in on the lookieloo action.

The room falls totally silent. For at least another 10 seconds, Jimmy obliviously mines away with cross eyed focus on where finger intersects with face.

THEN....

Jimmy's finger emerges from its hiding place and it is now adorned with a glorious crown of nose gold. If it were to be compared with diamonds it would have been at least 20 carats. It huge....

Jimmy's cross eyed focus shifts to that tempting warm piece of golden goo. Jimmy spends a few seconds in silence examining this treasure unaware of the gaze of those around him.

THEN....

Jimmy's mouth opens and he jams that thing all the way back into the deep recesses of his throat - savoring its salty goodness.

and all at once everyone yes "DAMN JIMMY!"
This is really a true story?

Aside from that, I have to say I love that someone named The Evil DM is giving advice here :)

[The Evil DM]

This is really a true story?

Aside from that, I have to say I love that someone named The Evil DM is giving advice here :)

This is really a true story.

I have more too - but many would break the rules of decency on this forum. I have seen a lot of strange social issues roleplaying for nearly 40 years.

[Hal0Badger]

So, for the dragon fight; If I were you I would straight up tell them dragon is too powerful to be beaten by normal ways, and they will lose a fair fight definitely. What the wizard did was smart, and satisfying on the player part, because it is a move that requires thinking. However, I would still go hard on them on the ground, they should have prepared more if they were in my game. But, there is nothing wrong in this approach.

On the other occasion, attacking Guild Master, from the details you give, you did what is right. Level 12 is not where you become very very powerful, especially if you are a fighter and lack magical items. Example guild masters I have found have levels like 15 or close, and tend to be surrounded by combatant bodyguards. Dwarf should have expected this outcome. If players get upset because of this, you should ask yourself this question : If they haven't reacted so badly, would you be satisfied with that outcome, naming: Dwarf being killed because he forgets his place. If the answer is yes, swallow that bite, and continue with other players who wishes to continue with you. Most of the time, players forget that DM is also playing this game and he/she should get fun too. If as a DM you are not entertained, the game quickly becomes a large burden.

Ultimately, IMO, you did the right thing. If that dwarf player gona rage because you played a reasonable Guild Master, and still rages after you give him a choice to replay, let him go and let the people go with him if they want to leave. You still have 4 players, ask them what kind of adventure they want to play, build something for them and play in that environment.

[RBVakarian]

If players get upset because of this, you should ask yourself this question : If they haven't reacted so badly, would you be satisfied with that outcome, naming: Dwarf being killed because he forgets his place. If the answer is yes, swallow that bite, and continue with other players who wishes to continue with you.

Yes. I put about 8 hours worth of prep time for each session, especially having to account for so many people. When players start being murder hobos just cause, that takes the fun away. I'm big into the RP of the game, but instead of rolling skill checks, they wanted initiative. So, I'm happy. The fact both Oracles could have brought him back (I give all players who died a death vision that puts them on a quest) and it would have added some cool stuff. But he staunchly refused, and as a result, defused the game.

[Geddy2112]

But this guy is usually on his phone when the attention isn't on him, and despite playing longer is behind the learning curve.


This reminds me of a player that no longer plays at our table. Claimed to be a veteran, but had no idea how to use any character she rolled up and took things at great personal offense when her incredibly stupid choices got her characters into trouble. Was rarely actually playing though, and often just scrolled funny images or reddit on her phone, breaking up tense scenes to laugh and read aloud some non sequitur. I absolutely despise this and agree with other posters who dislike this at the table. It is rude to everybody there, and if you don't want to play then just don't play. I would be glad this player ragequit and is no longer at the table-I suspect the remaining group will have a lot more fun.

[Jay R]

Yes, this campaign can be salvaged.

Step one is to kick out the player with the dwarf, who doesn't want to play on a level that matches the game you're running.
Achievement unlocked.

The next step is to let the remaining players know that characters don't just randomly murder, that there is an actual society, and that their actions have consequences.

The third step is to ask how many players will actually play that sort of game.

The final step is to run a game for those players only.

You may also continue to seek more players that will play the game that you want to run.

One of the most deadly D&D fallacies is the belief that all D&D players can play together. It just isn't true. Your game and the dwarf player's game may both be called D&D, but they are not the same game, and they are not compatible.

[ksbsnowowl]

One of the most deadly D&D fallacies is the belief that all D&D players can play together. It just isn't true. Your game and the dwarf player's game may both be called D&D, but they are not the same game, and they are not compatible.

True.

Note, this does not mean that one or the other is "Bad-Wrong-Fun," but it does mean they are mutually exclusive play styles.

[RBVakarian]

Yeah, I see now that it's probably for the best to just siphon into a smaller group, depending on the other three people. DMing for 8 people is taxing.
Setting rules about phones would be needed at this point as well. I mean, when they're playing video at max volume while I'm trying to communicate with another player... That's just not cool.

[MyNoobsRBigger]

WIZARD HERE!:smallbiggrin:
Hokay... I am the wizard in this campaign. The aforementioned Dwarf player is a 25 year old "man" with a bad temper. He isn't very articulate, so his arguments are "it is because it is" or in this case "I have a reason, but I am not going to tell you". He has been a friend and has joined our group in a previous campaign (about 6 sessions long) before we all started this one. He is by NO means a veteran, but HAS had time to get used to combat rules and how to play the characters. Yet, we still have to talk him through adding up his attacks and damage. He has Chihuahua Syndrome (short, angry, and has to try to control most situations).

Now, with that context, we like to be kinda ridiculous, and outrageous on occasion. (IE. dimension door above a dragon and change into an Earth Elemental to Kirby Smash his ass!) The Dwarf decides to put down his phone and attack the Guild Big-Wig while he is negotiating with the Tengu. The GM (RBVakarian) could have just shifted his alignment down, but the Dwarf has acted rashly multiple times with this same particular character (Last time the Thieves Guild Master threw him into the fighting pit for entertainment. We all bought tickets and started taking bets). The GM also admitted it was a **** move on his part, and that we can all act like it didn't happen so we can move with the lesson learned. If it were me, I would have killed him too.

The other players that left were the dwarf's girlfriend (elf), the Tengu player that decided to go to a town to break off from our group because his (in game) bestie died, and the Tengu player's wife (oracle), who obviously came in the same car with him. The wife situation was "Oh! I guess we are leaving... bye guys, see you later" It was the choice of two effected the others.

The situation sucked, so now it is my turn to GM, until they decide weather or not to get over it and continue this campaign or not. (I kinda hope so because I like being a sexy Wizard... Give me all your books! *insert come-hither wink here*

[Crake]

IE. dimension door above a dragon and change into an Earth Elemental to Kirby Smash his ass!

you've read the clause in dimension door that stops you from acting for the rest of the round after using it, right? A "Kirby Smash" sounds an awful lot like an action to me. The DM should have used the falling object rules, because you wouldn't have had the ability to act after casting the spell.

[ShaneMRoth]

Is there any way to salvage this at all? ...

This campaign is not broken. I would play in this campaign in a heartbeat.



The group recently took down a dragon despite not bring up to par for the fight.
...


... It gets to the point where, by DM Fiat, i turn back the clock and give him an extra chance. ...
...

Even if the players were entitled to error-free rulings from a DM (they're not), it is not possible for any DM to deliver consistently error-free rulings in every game session.

My approach to DM error is that "all DM errors are binding, but DM error does not constitute a precedent." I wrote that down as a 'house rule' for my players. This applies to errors that work for the players and errors that work against the players.

I recommend against replays or ret-cons.

When I make an error and have to account for the error in the context of story continuity, I usually rule that the error was a form of Unreliable Narrator.


Character A: "Remember that time we defeated the Tarrasque?"

Character B: "I will remember that moment to the day I die."

Character A: "Did we really defeat it with a Post-It note?"

Character B: "Uh... I remember a Post-It note being involved somehow but... that can't be right, can it?"

Character A: "No, of course not. Memory is a weird thing."

Character B: "It certainly is. But that's still how I'm going to tell the story to my grandkids."

Character A: "Me too."



...
The whole thing just left a bad taste in my mouth. ...

The fact that you are still willing to serve as DM and find a solution tells me further that your campaign is not broken.


... I put about 8 hours worth of prep time for each session...

Further evidence of a functional campaign.




The other players that left... ... ...came in the same car with him. The wife situation was "Oh! I guess we are leaving... bye guys, see you later" It was the choice of two effected the others.




It seems likely that after a reasonable cool-down period that the other players may chose to return.

Your campaign is fine.

[MyNoobsRBigger]

you've read the clause in dimension door that stops you from acting for the rest of the round after using it, right? A "Kirby Smash" sounds an awful lot like an action to me.

It was not in the same action, as each round is about 6 seconds. I could have said technically, that I fell through the air...
Using the phrase "Kirby Smash" was just eluding to the move Kirby does where he jumps up and turns into something heavy that lands on an opponent.
It was a fun way to say it. Flavor text, if you will...

[atemu1234]

Send them through the 3.5 Tomb of Horrors. Weed out the weak.

[The Evil DM]

Snip

Dwarf player is a 25 year old "man" with a bad temper. He isn't very articulate, so his arguments are "it is because it is" or in this case "I have a reason, but I am not going to tell you". He has been a friend and has joined our group in a previous campaign (about 6 sessions long) before we all started this one. He is by NO means a veteran, but HAS had time to get used to combat rules and how to play the characters. Yet, we still have to talk him through adding up his attacks and damage. He has Chihuahua Syndrome (short, angry, and has to try to control most situations).

Snip

That's a pretty big Noob but I still need proof that your Noobs are bigger and I have seen some big Noobs in my day. The stories of Noobs that can be told.

But seriously....

Anger Management issues are generally bad news. This scenario will repeat. It might go away for a week or two but it will repeat and from the gaming perspective a group is better off without that sort of aggravation. Add to it that his level of investment is low and spends his time using the phone this individual your group is overall better off without the player.

[Crake]

It was not in the same action, as each round is about 6 seconds. I could have said technically, that I fell through the air...
Using the phrase "Kirby Smash" was just eluding to the move Kirby does where he jumps up and turns into something heavy that lands on an opponent.
It was a fun way to say it. Flavor text, if you will...

Eh, it's more interesting than just using assay resistance followed by a maximised shivering touch I suppose

[ShaneMRoth]

That's a pretty big Noob but I still need proof that your Noobs are bigger and I have seen some big Noobs in my day. The stories of Noobs that can be told.


Have you ever seen a Noob Golem?

Be glad that you haven't.

And don't even get me started on Gelatinous Noobs...

the horror... the horror...

[Susano-wo]

Yeah, I'm not seeing where the **** move is. Guild Leader is being attacked, with lethal force. It is perfectly reasonable that he and his guild responded in kind. (that's what I meant by it not being the pacifist guild :smallamused:)

But yeah, it sounds like the issue lie with the Dwarf player, and I'd make sure the others know they are welcome if they still want to play. (If it was me at least. And for the record, I'd have no issues playing in the campaign as you have described it. Good luck with everything:smallsmile:)

[MyNoobsRBigger]

And don't even get me started on Gelatinous Noobs...

the horror... the horror...

Gelatinous... ew.

[RBVakarian]

And for the record, I'd have no issues playing in the campaign as you have described it. Good luck with everything:smallsmile:)

Funny you mention that, we just had a spot open up at the table... :smalltongue:

[Mindtour]

Heck, I'm in Texas. Need someone to teach the dwarf player a lesson?

And by lesson I mean a stern talking to. Followed by awkward silence.

And maybe some love. Buttstuff.

[MyNoobsRBigger]

And by lesson I mean a stern talking to. Followed by awkward silence.

And maybe some love. Buttstuff.

Yeah... That will teach him!

On a side note: heheheheh ...butt stuff... :-)