Eldritch Glaive Questions

[Yogibear41]

Can Eldritch Glaive we used with only 1 hand or do you need 2 hands in order to wield it?

Can Eldritch Glaive be combined with quicken spell like ability in order to full attack with it as only a standard action?

Would the Shorten Grip feat from dragon compendium allow you to use it against adjacent enemies?

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

There isn't a lot of definite ruling on eldritch glaive. RAW, yes, you can use Quicken SLA; per CustServ, you can't. So your mileage may vary.

Per my reading, no, you can't use Short Haft; eldritch glaive isn't a weapon. Same with Shorten Grip. That being said, Eldritch Claws is a thing.

Is it one or two handed? I don't know; I would probably say one-handed? But I don't see the mechanical effect either way as it can't be disarmed and you don't get bonus damage from strength or power attack.

[A_S]

Here are my readings of the RAW; your mileage may vary:


Can Eldritch Glaive we used with only 1 hand or do you need 2 hands in order to wield it?
Nothing about the text of Eldritch Glaive suggests that it is treated as a glaive in any rules-relevant sense; the weapon type is only mentioned when describing the appearance of the spell. You make your attacks "as if wielding a reach weapon," but one-handed reach weapons exist (e.g., spiked chain). Absent any text to the contrary, I believe you need only one free hand to make your Eldritch Glaive attacks (and that only because Invocations have somatic components). However, I would expect many DM's to houserule this otherwise.


Can Eldritch Glaive be combined with quicken spell like ability in order to full attack with it as only a standard action?
In fact, using Quicken Spell-Like Ability reduces the casting time of Eldritch Glaive to a swift action, not a standard action, allowing you to make two full attacks in the same round.


Would the Shorten Grip feat from dragon compendium allow you to use it against adjacent enemies?
No. Eldritch Glaive is, as mentioned above, not a glaive in any rules-relevant way, and therefore you are not "wielding a pole arm with reach that you are proficient with" when you use it.

[Yogibear41]

Would there be anyway to make eldritch glaive usable against adjacent targets then?



Is it one or two handed? I don't know; I would probably say one-handed? But I don't see the mechanical effect either way as it can't be disarmed and you don't get bonus damage from strength or power attack.


Can use a shield in the off hand if it only requires one hand (would have to pick one up with 0% ASF)

[nedz]

It's very confusing. This invocation has several places where the rules are silent or ambiguous. E.g. of the four common Warlock handbooks: two say you can power-attack with it, and two say you can't.

[A_S]

Would there be anyway to make eldritch glaive usable against adjacent targets then?
Not that I can think of.


It's very confusing. This invocation has several places where the rules are silent or ambiguous. E.g. of the four common Warlock handbooks: two say you can power-attack with it, and two say you can't.
I think most of the confusions are resolved (though not necessarily in the most intuitively satisfying way) by bearing in mind that Eldritch Glaive is not, in any meaningful way, a weapon attack or a full attack action. It's a Blast Shape invocation, which means you use it by activating your Eldritch Blast ability, which is a SLA (in this case, a full-round action SLA, but only because the text of Eldritch Glaive says so). Its effect is that you get to make some number of melee touch attacks that deal your Eldritch Blast damage. The number of attacks you get to make happens to be determined by your BAB, but that's just because the text of Eldritch Glaive says so, not because you're actually making a full attack.

So, that means Power Attack probably does work, because a melee touch attack is a form of melee attack, and the damage it does is a form of melee damage. For the same reason, Power Attack probably also works with Vampiric Touch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/vampiricTouch.htm) and similar spells. If you rule that Power Attack only works on weapon damage, then it doesn't work on Vampiric Touch, and also doesn't work with Eldritch Glaive.

It means that effects that give you extra attacks as part of a full attack (e.g., Haste (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/haste.htm)) don't give you extra attacks with Eldritch Glaive, because you're not making a full attack, and the number of attacks you get to make is determined only by your BAB, per the Eldritch Glaive text.

It means that you can't take Weapon Focus (Eldritch Glaive), but that Weapon Focus (melee touch attack) works with it.

It means that you can't use weapon-specific feats, like Shorten Grip, with Eldritch Glaive.

It means that you can use stuff that works with SLA's, like Quicken Spell-like Ability, with Eldritch Glaive.

It means that precision damage treats Eldritch Glaive as a weaponlike spell, and interacts with it accordingly (e.g., you get to add your precision for each attack when you cast it as a full round action, per the rules for volley attacks, but if you Quicken it then you only get to add your precision damage to the first attack).

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I agree that the invocation could have used some more explanatory text, but I don't think the rules are exactly silent on most stuff with it; you just have to ignore the vague implication from the name and the fluff text that you're attacking with something resembling a glaive, and remembering that what you're really doing is just casting a (somewhat odd) spell-like ability.

[Necroticplague]

Technically, you don't need any. You need a hand to make the somatic component, but nothing says you actually have to hold anything.

No. Quicken SLA lets you use Eldritch Glaive as a free action, not a standard action. But yess, you do get all the attacks.

Nope, you aren't wielding a polearm.

On power attack: Yes, you can lower your to-hit (as it is a melee attack). However, you wouldn't get the benefit of damage increase, because a hit by the Glaive doesn't do damage. It instead applies the effect of your Eldritch Blast.

[Extra Anchovies]

If you're flying 10 feet off the ground (e.g. via Fell Flight), you can hit anyone in a square 25 feet on a side centered below you, thanks to how reach works with medium creatures. Reach weapons initially appear to let you threaten in a 25 ft x25 ft ring around you, but you can also threaten 10 feet upwards - your threatened area isn't a flat square, it's a hollow cube. It just seems like a ring because your ground-level reach is a cross-section of said cube. Flying upwards 10 feet means one face of the cube rises to meet ground level, allowing you to threaten anything inside its area.

Reach gets more accurate with bigger creatures, since their threatened zones more closely resemble spheres (or circles, with just the ground-level cross sections). But it's pretty wonky at Medium size because everything is measured in 5-foot squares. I'm sure there's a way to calculate the actual threatened ground area more accurately (it's just a 12.5-foot-radius sphere intersected by a plane, after all) and then round to the nearest increment of 5, but I'm out of college for the summer so there's no way you're getting me to do three-dimensional geometry when I don't want to :smalltongue:

If a player wanted to do this in a game I was running, I'd chop the eight corners off their reach cube and call it a day.

[A_S]

On power attack: Yes, you can lower your to-hit (as it is a melee attack). However, you wouldn't get the benefit of damage increase, because a hit by the Glaive doesn't do damage. It instead applies the effect of your Eldritch Blast.
On closer reading, this is correct; I thought the text said that the touch attacks dealt damage equal to that done by your Eldritch Blast, but the touch attacks don't deal damage at all, the target is just affected by your Eldritch Blast if hit. So, scratch my claim about Power Attack above.

[Yogibear41]

Does Divine Might increase Eldritch Glaive damage then? By the above points I would guess no.

[nedz]

On closer reading, this is correct; I thought the text said that the touch attacks dealt damage equal to that done by your Eldritch Blast, but the touch attacks don't deal damage at all, the target is just affected by your Eldritch Blast if hit. So, scratch my claim about Power Attack above.

I said it was very confusing — it confused the handbook writers :smallamused:


Does Divine Might increase Eldritch Glaive damage then? By the above points I would guess no.

Debatable. EG is a weaponlike SLA but Divine Might is not listed as an eligible feat in CArc (p72-73), though that list is not exhaustive. I don't think that this is clear.

[Necroticplague]

Debatable. EG is a weaponlike SLA but Divine Might is not listed as an eligible feat in CArc (p72-73), though that list is not exhaustive. I don't think that this is clear.

Similarly, I think this is unclear, but for different reasons. EG is definitely weapon-like. However, it doesn't have any damage of its own. It merely applies the effects of your EB. So it's a fairly valid question if the resulting damage roll is a weapon damage roll. I'd say it's ambiguous, but lean towards 'no', because the damage is not a direct result of the EG, while it is a direct result of the EB.

EDIT:In case it wasn't clear, it definitely would apply to a normal EB.

[nedz]

Similarly, I think this is unclear, but for different reasons. EG is definitely weapon-like. However, it doesn't have any damage of its own. It merely applies the effects of your EB. So it's a fairly valid question if the resulting damage roll is a weapon damage roll. I'd say it's ambiguous, but lean towards 'no', because the damage is not a direct result of the EG, while it is a direct result of the EB.

EDIT:In case it wasn't clear, it definitely would apply to a normal EB.

But EG is just a Blast Shape, so if it applies to EB then it should apply to EG ?

There were several reason I thought this was unclear. One of which is that DM adds Cha to Weapon Damage: which should work with EB due to it being Weapon-like, even though it's an SLA.

[Segev]

Reading this thread has raised a question for me:

If you use Quicken SLA on your Eldrich Glaive, we've established that you make all attacks (similar to a full attack) as (effectively) part of that swift action. Eldrich Glaive says it remains in effect for a round. Can you use it to make a normal full attack with your full-round action? A charge attack? A standard action single attack combined with a move?

[Urpriest]

Similarly, I think this is unclear, but for different reasons. EG is definitely weapon-like. However, it doesn't have any damage of its own. It merely applies the effects of your EB. So it's a fairly valid question if the resulting damage roll is a weapon damage roll. I'd say it's ambiguous, but lean towards 'no', because the damage is not a direct result of the EG, while it is a direct result of the EB.

EDIT:In case it wasn't clear, it definitely would apply to a normal EB.

A more relevant point is that touch attacks count as light weapons for the purpose of feats. So you can take Weapon Finesse with EG (or rather with touch attacks in general), but you can't Power Attack with it.

[Necroticplague]

Reading this thread has raised a question for me:

If you use Quicken SLA on your Eldrich Glaive, we've established that you make all attacks (similar to a full attack) as (effectively) part of that swift action. Eldrich Glaive says it remains in effect for a round. Can you use it to make a normal full attack with your full-round action? A charge attack? A standard action single attack combined with a move?

No, it doesn't remain for a full round. It lets you threaten as if holding a reach weapon and make attacks of opportunity until the next round. Critical distinction. The answer to all of these is 'no'.

[Telonius]

A more relevant point is that touch attacks count as light weapons for the purpose of feats. So you can take Weapon Finesse with EG (or rather with touch attacks in general), but you can't Power Attack with it.


I suppose there would be a few weird edge cases where it could be affected by the Power Attack feat, but never to your advantage. A Warlock who Power Attacks with a natural weapon, for example; then uses Eldritch Glaive in the same round for whatever reason (Belt of Battle, White Raven shenanigans, etc). The Power Attack penalty to hit would still apply (since the penalty applies to all attacks until the next round), but you wouldn't gain any bonus damage to it.