Double-dipping on Knowledge Devotion: I feel like this shouldn't work, but why?

[Zaq]

So let's say you've got a character with Knowledge Devotion. As you probably know, the feat gives you a scaling bonus on "attack rolls and damage rolls" against a certain creature type, based on a special Knowledge check that it lets you make. And let's say that this character happens to have Sneak Attack. So they make their Knowledge check, and then they make a successful Sneak Attack against a creature that KD is currently applying to.

Now, I know that what should happen is that you roll your weapon damage (plus any usual modifiers, like STR or a magic weapon), and you roll your Sneak Attack damage, and you add your Knowledge Devotion insight bonus. But hang on a second. Knowledge Devotion applies a bonus to all of your damage rolls against an appropriate creature. Why wouldn't you add your KD bonus to your base weapon damage (which is a damage roll), and then again to your Sneak Attack damage (which is another damage roll)? So far as I can tell, nothing in the Rogue's Sneak Attack description says that Sneak Attack is considered to be part of the same single "damage roll" as your base weapon damage. It seems to be separate, because nothing says it isn't. And looking up "Damage" on PHB pg. 134, it doesn't say anything about extra damage dice (including, but not limited to, Sneak Attack) being part of the base damage expression. It seems like Sneak Attack is a separate damage roll, so anything that applies a bonus to damage rolls should apply to your Sneak Attack just as much as it applies to your base weapon damage. It's rare to find a bonus that just applies to "damage rolls" and doesn't have any other qualifiers attached to it (like "weapon damage rolls" or anything like that)—Knowledge Devotion is one of the very few that I can find. But Knowledge Devotion exists, so here we are.

This doesn't seem entirely right to me, which is why I'm turning to you guys for help finding an appropriate rules citation for why this wouldn't work. My gut tells me that there's gotta be something saying this shouldn't work, so I feel like I'm probably overlooking a rule somewhere. I'm hoping that you can help me find that rule that I'm overlooking.

Of course, if we can't find a rule stating that extra damage dice are part of the same single "damage roll" as your base weapon damage, then I guess I just found a trick to make Knowledge Devotion better on characters with extra damage rolls (which is probably just precision damage users, but who knows, maybe there's something else that works). Which is neat, I suppose. Rogues are feat-starved enough (and skill-starved enough) that I doubt that Knowledge Devotion will suddenly become a staple of Rogue-op (and even with a maxed Knowledge check, that's only an extra +5 damage a hit over the way I thought KD worked—useful, but not earth-shattering), but still, a trick's a trick. Like I said, I feel like there's a reason that this shouldn't work, but maybe I'm wrong.

What do you think? Can we prove that Sneak Attack and other extra damage dice are part of the same single "damage roll" as your base damage, or did I just find a way to double-dip on certain (very rare) damage bonuses?

[nedz]

Why not apply it to each dice you roll ?

I'm not sure I can find a rule which says you can't do this, but it would be unique in the system.


Weapon Specialization[General]
...
You gain a +2 bonus on all damage rolls you make using the selected weapon.

Would this be true for Weapon Specialization as well ? Exactly the same language is used.

[A_S]

I have the same intuition you do that this shouldn't work, but a quick look through the relevant sources has left me just as empty-handed as you.

That said...

Of course, if we can't find a rule stating that extra damage dice are part of the same single "damage roll" as your base weapon damage, then I guess I just found a trick to make Knowledge Devotion better on characters with extra damage rolls (which is probably just precision damage users, but who knows, maybe there's something else that works). Which is neat, I suppose. Rogues are feat-starved enough (and skill-starved enough) that I doubt that Knowledge Devotion will suddenly become a staple of Rogue-op (and even with a maxed Knowledge check, that's only an extra +5 damage a hit over the way I thought KD worked—useful, but not earth-shattering), but still, a trick's a trick.
I think if we can't find anything declaring Sneak Attack to be part of the same damage roll as your weapon damage, then the same trick will also work on basically every other source of bonus damage dice. That means the Knowledge Devotion bonus would be multiplied for each of: Sneak Attack
Other sources of precision damage (Skirmish, Sudden Strike)
Arcane Strike (once for each spell sacrificed)
Weapon Enhancements like Flaming, maybe (unless the fact that they're properties of the weapon makes them part of your weapon damage roll)
Many maneuvers
Lots of other things I've forgotten about
I think this is a stronger trick than you give it credit for if it does turn out to work.

[Venger]

I like knowledge devotion too, but I don't think this'd work. sneak attack is called out as "extra" damage, as in part of the attack it's being channeled through. that's why you don't do stuff like apply DR twice like you do with arrows, so KD wouldn't work this way.

[Saintheart]

Is it just that Knowledge Devotion adds an insight bonus to damage, and multiple benefits of the same kind don't stack?

[Zaq]

Why not apply it to each dice you roll ?

I'm not sure I can find a rule which says you can't do this, but it would be unique in the system.



Would this be true for Weapon Specialization as well ? Exactly the same language is used.

I don't think so, but it's hard to be sure. Your base weapon damage is unambiguously "using this weapon," but I'm not sure if your Sneak Attack damage is "using this weapon." The attack roll definitely was, but it's not the weapon doing the extra d6s, it's your class feature. I feel like it's intended that Sneak Attack was tied to your weapon (what with the clause about only being able to do a nonlethal Sneak Attack with certain special weapons), but it's not spelled out.


I have the same intuition you do that this shouldn't work, but a quick look through the relevant sources has left me just as empty-handed as you.

That said...

I think if we can't find anything declaring Sneak Attack to be part of the same damage roll as your weapon damage, then the same trick will also work on basically every other source of bonus damage dice. That means the Knowledge Devotion bonus would be multiplied for each of: Sneak Attack
Other sources of precision damage (Skirmish, Sudden Strike)
Arcane Strike (once for each spell sacrificed)
Weapon Enhancements like Flaming, maybe (unless the fact that they're properties of the weapon makes them part of your weapon damage roll)
Many maneuvers
Lots of other things I've forgotten about
I think this is a stronger trick than you give it credit for if it does turn out to work.

At a cursory glance, I'm inclined to agree with your list. (I definitely agree that Flaming and the like wouldn't work, since they're clearly part of the weapon's damage roll. . . . Probably.) Arcane Strike is definitely interesting. I know you can use KD to double-dip on channeled spell damage (since KD is one of the only things that increases spell damage in the first place), but Arcane Strike hadn't occurred to me.


I like knowledge devotion too, but I don't think this'd work. sneak attack is called out as "extra" damage, as in part of the attack it's being channeled through. that's why you don't do stuff like apply DR twice like you do with arrows, so KD wouldn't work this way.

4e has a specific rule saying that "extra" damage dice don't get bonuses that apply to damage rolls, but I am unaware of such a rule for 3.5. I'm not sure what you're saying about arrows, though. And like I keep saying, my gut tells me that this shouldn't work, but I can't find a rule to disprove it. I think it might work in spite of itself.


Is it just that Knowledge Devotion adds an insight bonus to damage, and multiple benefits of the same kind don't stack?

It's not stacking with itself if it's applying to two separate damage rolls. It's like a magical bonus to hit on your bow working on both attacks with your Rapid Shot—that's not the same bonus stacking with itself, it's one bonus being applied equally to two separate rolls. If this works at all, the entire reason that it works is because the damage rolls are separate, so there's no problem applying the same bonus to two separate things.

[Ruslan]

Sneak Attack, in itself, is not a damage roll. It is a modifier to a damage roll, of +1d6, or whatever it may be based on your level.

Your damage roll, in total, is something like 1d8+3+1d6. There it is, one damage roll. There's no separate damage roll of 1d8+3 and another damage roll of +1d6.

[Curmudgeon]

Sneak Attack, in itself, is not a damage roll. It is a modifier to a damage roll, of +1d6, or whatever it may be based on your level.
Exactly, and so is Knowledge Devotion.

[nedz]

I
I think if we can't find anything declaring Sneak Attack to be part of the same damage roll as your weapon damage, ...

CArc p86 Describes applying Sneak to weaponlike spells — it just says that the damage is of the same type as the spell. I'm not sure if this is adequate ?

[rockdeworld]

After reading the rules, I'm half-inclined to agree with Zaq. Here are the relevant rules:


When your attack succeeds, you deal damage. The type of weapon used determines the amount of damage you deal.


The Damage columns give the damage dealt by the weapon on a successful hit.

"Damage roll" isn't a defined term =/


Dice rolls are described with expressions such as “3d4+3,” <snip> The first number tells you how many dice to roll (adding the results together).

So the column under weapons' damage describes "damage" and a "dice roll" (notably 1 dice roll). By RAI it's a damage roll; by RAW that still isn't defined. The above all seem to imply that a damage roll only comes from a weapon (after an attack), but don't actually say that.


The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter.

"Extra damage" doesn't clarify whether the dice are part of the same die roll or not (nor does the rest of the ability description). It's harder to believe it's part of the same die roll when the sneak attack damage uses a different-sized die than the weapon damage. The counterargument is that if 3 d4's can be one dice roll (as in 3d4+3), then 3 d4's and a d6 can be too (as in 3d4+3+1d6).

(Avoiding copyright infringement) Knowledge Devotion gives "an insight bonus on... damage rolls".

Here's how insight bonuses work:

An insight bonus improves performance of a given activity by granting the character an almost precognitive knowledge of what might occur. Multiple insight bonuses on the same character or object do not stack. Only the highest insight bonus applies.

It might seem like the "do not stack" rule precludes this, but it doesn't, because that's not what stacking refers to.


In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types...

In other words, stacking works on individual rolls.
Here's how bonuses in general work:


A modifier is any bonus or penalty applying to a die roll. A positive modifier is a bonus, and a negative modifier is a penalty.

So a bonus, including insight bonus, applies to a die roll, which only tells us what we already knew.

In conclusion, I can find RAW that says individual dice are part of the same die roll, but I can't find anything that says whether extra damage dice are part of that die roll too. To answer OP question, I'd say ask your DM. Maybe bonuses ARE meant to be applied that way.


I think if we can't find anything declaring Sneak Attack to be part of the same damage roll as your weapon damage, then the same trick will also work on basically every other source of bonus damage dice. That means the Knowledge Devotion bonus would be multiplied for each of: Sneak Attack
Other sources of precision damage (Skirmish, Sudden Strike)
Arcane Strike (once for each spell sacrificed)
Weapon Enhancements like Flaming, maybe (unless the fact that they're properties of the weapon makes them part of your weapon damage roll)
Many maneuvers
Lots of other things I've forgotten about
I think this is a stronger trick than you give it credit for if it does turn out to work.
I think it's not. The number of optimized builds that have all of those things is 0. And this "trick" doesn't make them optimized. To quote an actual player, "flat, static bonuses are boring."

Assuming for the sake of argument someone has Whatever Weapon Specialization and Mastery for +8 to damage rolls and Knowledge Devotion for +5, having sneak attack alone means they have +13 per attack/extra damage roll. Presumably they have 2 iterative attacks at level 20 because of terrible multiclassing, so +39 per round per attack/extra roll.And these "many maneuvers" tend to drop the weapon damage or be Assassin's Stance (Sneak Attack), so they don't really stack. That leaves us with:

1x from sneak attack
1x from skirmish
1x from sudden strike
1x from arcane strike
5x from weapon enhancements

...and not much else. So 10 * 39 ~= 390 bonus damage on top of your... 10d6 of other forms of damage? So 425 total? At level 20? Before damage reduction (which applies 9-11 times because each of these are different "damage rolls"). That seems about right.

For reference, the warblade version of the Bardic Badass (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17031287&postcount=32) deals 730 average damage per round before items. Adding 5 weapon enhancements brings it up to 852 per round.

A simpler Rogue 16/Nightsong Enforcer 4 build with TWF deals 7x10d6 or 245 before items. Adding 5 weapon enhancements brings it up to 367 per round.

Both have better BAB.

Basically, you're sabotaging your build for extra damage. I don't care if you do that. If you'd like to know why that isn't a good idea, here you go:

1. The +10d6 Sneak Attack myth

Having the higher Sneak Attack possible is not always the best option. Your huge sneak attack is of no use if you attack only once in a round with a low, low BAB. It's better to have a lowier sneak attack, suck as +6d6, but with high BAB, 2-weapon fighting and flurry. By focusing too much on SA, you forget the rest. Of course, every rogue wants the maximum SA possible, but remember: that's not all.
Source (if it still works): http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1028051

[Crake]

Sneak Attack, in itself, is not a damage roll. It is a modifier to a damage roll, of +1d6, or whatever it may be based on your level.

Your damage roll, in total, is something like 1d8+3+1d6. There it is, one damage roll. There's no separate damage roll of 1d8+3 and another damage roll of +1d6.

That said, a flaming shocking freezing weapon has 4 damage rolls (one for weapon damage, then 1d6 fire, 1d6 cold and 1d6 electricity), and knowledge devotion would apply separately to each of those, since they are each their own unique damage rolls.

[A_S]

I think it's not. The number of optimized builds that have all of those things is 0. And this "trick" doesn't make them optimized.

Assuming for the sake of argument someone has Whatever Weapon Specialization and Mastery for +8 to damage rolls and Knowledge Devotion for +5, having sneak attack alone means they have +13 per attack/extra damage roll. Presumably they have 2 iterative attacks at level 20 because of terrible multiclassing, so +39 per round per attack/extra roll.And these "many maneuvers" tend to drop the weapon damage or be Assassin's Stance (Sneak Attack), so they don't really stack. That leaves us with:
1x from sneak attack
1x from skirmish
1x from sudden strike
1x from arcane strike
5x from weapon enhancements
and not much else. So 10 * 39 ~= 390 bonus damage on top of your... 10d6 of other forms of damage? So 425 total? At level 20? Before damage reduction (which applies 9-11 times because each of these are different "damage rolls"). That seems about right.

For reference, the warblade version of the Bardic Badass (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17031287&postcount=32) deals 730 average damage per round before items. Adding 5 weapon enhancements brings it up to 852 per round.

A simpler Rogue 16/Nightsong Enforcer 4 build with TWF deals 7x10d6 or 245 before items. Adding 5 weapon enhancements brings it up to 367 per round.

Both have better BAB.

Basically, you're sabotaging your build for extra damage. I don't care if you do that. If you'd like to know why that isn't a good idea, here you go:

Source (if it still works): http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1028051

I didn't mean to imply that I thought multi-dipping on Knowledge Devotion was strong because I expected a given character to take all of those options, but because there were so many options that it's easy to get a few on a character early. I think focusing on the maximal amount of possible damage you can get out of this trick at level 20 is not productive...at level 20, I expect any build that's investing in damage at all to deal enough damage to kill anything it can hit in a single round anyway, whether this trick works or not.

A Duskblade or a sneak-attacking gish can easily have one source of precision damage, two or three +1d6 weapon enhancements, and Arcane Strike at level 9. Either build, especially the Duskblade, can be expected to burn multiple 1st level slots to Arcane Strike in a single round for important fights. So, if this trick works, then instead of providing +5 damage per attack, Knowledge Devotion would be adding perhaps +35 damage per attack. Such a character is likely making 3-5 attacks per round (at least +6 BAB, likely Haste, possibly 1-2 off-hand or natural attacks).

30 extra damage on 3-5 attacks at level 9 is a big deal! Not, like, "this is suddenly the most broken thing in D&D" big deal, but like "Knowledge Devotion is suddenly an extremely good feat for this type of character instead of a mediocre one" big deal. Zaq was saying, "it's only +5 damage, no big deal." All I was saying is, "I think this trick applies to more than just Sneak Attack, and if it does, then it's more than just +5, enough to be a moderately big deal."

[rockdeworld]

30 extra damage on 3-5 attacks at level 9 is a big deal! Not, like, "this is suddenly the most broken thing in D&D" big deal, but like "Knowledge Devotion is suddenly an extremely good feat for this type of character instead of a mediocre one" big deal... All I was saying is, "I think this trick applies to more than just Sneak Attack, and if it does, then it's more than just +5, enough to be a moderately big deal."
That seems like a bit of backtracking from your previous post, but ok. 9th-level characters typically don't succeed on DC 36 Knowledge checks. Assuming +16 on Knowledge skills, that's +3 instead of +5. And a Duskblade can not easily have 3 weapon enhancements - they need to survive more than most martial classes. You're back to sacrificing for damage again, which I'm fine with. So supposing 3 enhancements, and the enemy isn't immune to any of them, it's +15 per attack, or +30 per round. I'm fine with a Duskblade having that. Feats should be at least as good as spells (or vice-versa).

Knowledge Devotion was already extremely good, and a staple for any build that can put ranks in Knowledge skills. This doesn't really change that.

[A_S]

That seems like a bit of backtracking from your previous post, but ok. 9th-level characters typically don't succeed on DC 36 Knowledge checks. Assuming +16 on Knowledge skills, that's +3 instead of +5. I don't know where you're getting +35 from either - Arcane Strike only adds 1 damage roll. So it's +6 per attack, or +12 per round. I'm totally fine with a Duskblade having that.
Really? I said I thought the trick was stronger than Zaq gave it credit for in his post, because it wouldn't just apply once for Sneak Attack, it would apply once for each of a whole bunch of things a character could have. I stand by that. And for the record, I'm also totally fine with a Duskblade getting this level of buffs...I wasn't trying to say that this trick would be too strong to allow if it worked, just that I thought it was stronger than the "meh" it was initially getting.

You're right about not getting +5 from each instance; I didn't think to lower it based on the skill check. I don't agree on only getting one damage roll from Arcane Strike, though. By my reading, Arcane Strike adds one damage roll for each spell you sacrifice. It's a free action, so you can sacrifice multiple spells per round. The attack bonuses probably don't stack, because they likely count as being from the same source, but damage dice don't have to worry about stacking.

[rockdeworld]

Yes, really. Anyway, doing that every round is that's unsustainable, even for a Duskblade. It is pretty strong, a few times per day, but that's what going nova does. A level 9 Duskblade can get about 75 extra damage for 1 round, and about 30 6-ish more more times. That makes him the best damage dealer, maybe able to one-shot 7 enemies (average monster hp at CR 9: 130). Ok.

Edit: Actually, looking at it in that light, and considering he can do that + Vampiric Touch 4 times per day, it does put the Duskblade at about 95% victory over equal-CR opponents rather than 50%. So one of those things is probably broken. Since the way you're talking about using Arcane Strike is already considered broken, I'm inclined to say it's that.

[Jowgen]

I vaguely recall being part of a similar discussion recently that might tie into this.

It was an argument that had to do with damage multiplication effects and it came down to the question as what constitutes "normal damage" for a weapon. After a long examination of the SRD and RC rules on criticals, we reached the conclusion that everything that multiplies on a critical -namely weapon dice and flat bonuses- constitutes a weapon's "normal damage". Bonus damage dice -which don't multiply- are not part of the weapon's normal damage.

So does precision damage not being part of a weapon's normal damage mean you can separately add bonuses to damage rolls onto them? I think it comes down to the much broader question of what kind of damage rolls can and can not benefit from knowledge devotion as written. The feat does not specify that it needs to be a weapon damage roll, and technically doesn't even require there being an attack roll for the damage to happen.

So riddle me this, can you apply "an insight bonus on <snipped> damage rolls against that creature type" to:

- Magic missile spell?
- Ray of Frost spell?
- Breath Weapon damage?
- Alchemist fire direct and/or splash damage?
- A touch attack made with a gauntlet of Heartfelt Blows?
- A weird damage-dice dealing Su, Ex, or SLA?

I'm not saying you can, but in finding the reason why you can't one might stumble across answer to knowledge devotion double-dipping.

[Deadline]

For those of you thinking that this interpretation is the neatest thing since sliced bread, you need to realize that if you take this stance (which I think is pants on head crazy), it cuts both ways. If your sneak attack is a separate damage roll from your weapon, then defensive things like DR and Energy Resistance should apply multiple times as well. Your +3d6 Sneak Attack is separate from your 1d6 Short Sword damage? Well then, looks like that DR 5 the bad guy has applies once against your Sneak Attack, and once against your Sword damage.

For the record, I'm sure that isn't how it works, but I'm not going to go digging for the rule (don't have that kind of time).

[Draz74]

Does Rules Compendium on precision damage offer any clarity?

Would this mean that Damage Reduction works double against Sneak Attack, too?

(In any case, I think ruling sneak attack to be a damage bonus rather than a separate damage pool is as obvious a houserule as "monks are proficient with unarmed strikes.")

EDIT: Mostly ninja'd.

[Ruslan]

That said, a flaming shocking freezing weapon has 4 damage rolls (one for weapon damage, then 1d6 fire, 1d6 cold and 1d6 electricity), and knowledge devotion would apply separately to each of those, since they are each their own unique damage rolls.None of what you're describing is a separate damage roll. The first 1d6 is the base damage before any bonuses are applied. The other d6's are bonuses to damage. The "damage roll" is: 1d6 + 1d6 fire + 1d6 cold + 1d6 electricity.

[nedz]

So riddle me this, can you apply "an insight bonus on <snipped> damage rolls against that creature type" to:
It usually depends if it has a roll to hit
[QUOTE=Jowgen;19408121]- Magic missile spell?
No — there is no rule allowing this

- Ray of Frost spell?
Yes — it's a weaponlike spell (CArc p72)

- Breath Weapon damage?
No — there is no rule allowing this

- Alchemist fire direct and/or splash damage?
Yes and No — there is no rule allowing this on splash damage, but a splash weapon is a ranged weapon (PH)

- A touch attack made with a gauntlet of Heartfelt Blows?
I think so, but I don't know the item

- A weird damage-dice dealing Su, Ex, or SLA?
Depends: if it's a weaponlike spell or SLA then yes (CArc p72) or if it's a weapon then yes also; otherwise probably not.

[jiriku]

You guys are thinking much too hard on this one. Look at the bonus damage. There's a plus sign in front of it. Why is that plus sign there? Because the damage is bonus damage. How is it a bonus? It's added to your damage roll. Bonus dice are not a damage roll. They are a bonus that is added to a damage roll.

Consider: if you spend an action point to add +1d6 to an attack roll, you are not making two attacks. You are making one attack with a +1d6 bonus and rolling 1d20+1d6. Likewise, if you are adding +1d6 sneak attack to a damage roll, you are not dealing damage twice. You are dealing damage once and rolling 1d8+1d6.

[Crake]

I vaguely recall being part of a similar discussion recently that might tie into this.

It was an argument that had to do with damage multiplication effects and it came down to the question as what constitutes "normal damage" for a weapon. After a long examination of the SRD and RC rules on criticals, we reached the conclusion that everything that multiplies on a critical -namely weapon dice and flat bonuses- constitutes a weapon's "normal damage". Bonus damage dice -which don't multiply- are not part of the weapon's normal damage.

So does precision damage not being part of a weapon's normal damage mean you can separately add bonuses to damage rolls onto them? I think it comes down to the much broader question of what kind of damage rolls can and can not benefit from knowledge devotion as written. The feat does not specify that it needs to be a weapon damage roll, and technically doesn't even require there being an attack roll for the damage to happen.

So riddle me this, can you apply "an insight bonus on <snipped> damage rolls against that creature type" to:

- Magic missile spell?
- Ray of Frost spell?
- Breath Weapon damage?
- Alchemist fire direct and/or splash damage?
- A touch attack made with a gauntlet of Heartfelt Blows?
- A weird damage-dice dealing Su, Ex, or SLA?

I'm not saying you can, but in finding the reason why you can't one might stumble across answer to knowledge devotion double-dipping.

I draw the line at where DR or resistances come into effect. Magic missile does up to 5 lots of 1d4+1, meaning force resistance 5 will completely ignore the entire spell. However, it also means that knowledge devotion will add to each of the missiles. Similarly, sneak attack does not get DRed separately, so it does not get to double dip from knowledge devotion. Elemental damage on a weapon is also a separate packet of damage, as it can be resisted separately from DR, so that also gets a bonus from knowledge devotion.

Basically, ask yourself: Does this roll have DR/resistances applied separately to it from the other rolls?

If yes: It gets knowledge devotion, because it is a new damage roll
If no: It does not get knowledge devotion, because it is part of an existing damage roll

[prufock]

That said, a flaming shocking freezing weapon has 4 damage rolls (one for weapon damage, then 1d6 fire, 1d6 cold and 1d6 electricity), and knowledge devotion would apply separately to each of those, since they are each their own unique damage rolls.
What's your reasoning for this?

" A flaming weapon deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage on a successful hit"

There is no mention of whether it is a separate damage roll; it modifies the damage.

To OP: Insight bonuses don't stack with themselves.That's all you really need, in my opinion, unless you're actively looking for a loophole.

[Andreaz]

Exactly, and so is Knowledge Devotion. perfect! Now we can apply damage reduction multiple times per attack as well :)


People, please, let's just no worry about this level of lawyering and stick to the reasonable idea that if it's the same action (not Action), it's a single thing. like a single attack roll brings a single damage roll unless soomething explicitly calls out a separate roll (like a damage poison applying after you connected. Though even that is separate action in the sense the poison had to sink in)

[Jowgen]

I'm pretty sure Precision Damage has at this point been ruled out as something that can receive it's own KD bonus, but I don't think the matter as a whole has been reliably resolved.

I do personally think that Crake makes a rather reasonable argument. If you make 1 "attack" that succeeds and you subsequently get to deal a several types/packets of damages that can be resisted/reduced separately; why couldn't these different sources/types of damages separately benefit from damage boosters as well?

Crake and nedz seems to disagree on whether magic missile is a valid benefactor of KD, but it makes a brilliant example. If you choose 5 different targets you get 5 different damage rolls from a single attack that get rolled at the same time and can (very theortetically, since it's Force) be resisted separately and should each get the KD bonus. If you have those 5 missiles on 1 target, would the KD suddenly apply just once?

Either way, whether knowledge devotion works on non-weaponlike spells and such is something we should probably clear up. :smallannoyed:


Also, consider this: You hit with a flaming sword and consider both the normal weapon damage and fire damage to be part of the same damage roll, so you only apply KD once. Which type of damage do you apply the Insight bonus to? Do you deal extra fire damage or extra "normal" damage, or do you for some weird reason get to choose?

EDIT: Do note that, as an Insight Bonus, it can not stand on its own (i.e. "insight damage" isn't a thing), but has to apply itself to something else.

[Crake]

very theortetically, since it's Force

Someone with draconic heritage of a force-based dragon (such as a tarterian dragon, or the more obvious force dragon) and the draconic resistance feat could easily have force resistance :smalltongue:
Alternatively, there's the lava missile spell, which is basically a fire magic missile (except each missile does 1d4 damage, not 1d4+1)


Either way, whether knowledge devotion works on non-weaponlike spells and such is something we should probably clear up. :smallannoyed:

Considering it says "damage roll" and not "weapon damage roll" like other similar effects, such as inspire courage, i think it would be reasonable to say it's any damage roll, not weapons specifically.

[Miss Disaster]

Looks like spells that cause Ability Damage rolls (Ray of Stupidity - 1d4+1 INT ... or ... Numbing Sphere - 1d4 DEX) are open to the benefits of Knowledge Devotion, too.

I don't see where damage rolls are specified to be just for HP Damage. Meaning Ability Damage is also applicable?

[Crake]

Looks like spells that cause Ability Damage rolls (Ray of Stupidity - 1d4+1 INT ... or ... Numbing Sphere - 1d4 DEX) are open to the benefits of Knowledge Devotion, too.

I don't see where damage rolls are specified to be just for HP Damage. Meaning Ability Damage is also applicable?

That would appear to be the case, though I personally wouldn't allow it at my table to be honest. +5 HP damage is one thing, +5 ability damage is another

[Miss Disaster]

Yep, I agree. Because applying the KD feat results to ability damage spells (and psi-powers, etc.) is by far and away, the most effective to use the feat, really.

If you can get that meaty +5 result on a KD roll and apply it to say, Numbing Sphere's 1d4 DEX damage roll or Choking Cobwebs 1d4 CON damage roll, you're getting some insane firepower out of the feat.

Ability damage rolls as primary delivery effects in spells ... are intended to be very low in dice-number as ability damage is monumentally more debilitating than HP damage. Especially since a sizable amount of creatures and adversaries have at least 1-to-3 or more easily exploitable abilities that can be damaged to *0* in 1 to 3 rounds (when prepared for properly).

[Jay R]

You can't apply it twice to the same attack unless it says you can apply it twice to the same attack.