Final Fantasy 7 remake

[luckythepirate]

Well it finally happened, something that has been promised throughout the years that would never happen. Final Fantasy 7 is getting remade, best news i have heard in years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kznek1uNVsg

[themaque]

I can't tell you how much I'm looking forward to people telling me how much better the ORIGINAL was before they cheapened it in the remake.

[darksolitaire]

To be honest, when I clicked this thread after seeing the title I was expecting it to be spam bot thread. :smallbiggrin: It's not like there's been rumors about a remake for over ten years, right?

[Starwulf]

1/4 of an internet to first person who catches what's wrong in this article about the remake: http://techcrunch.com/2015/06/15/final-fantasy-vii-next-gen-hd-remake-coming-to-ps4-first/

:)

[Domochevsky]

1/4 of an internet to first person who catches what's wrong in this article about the remake: http://techcrunch.com/2015/06/15/final-fantasy-vii-next-gen-hd-remake-coming-to-ps4-first/

:)

"... and anyone who’s a fan of Squall and Seifer and their epic rivalry ..."

Alright! I hope I get to customize my gunblade this time around. :smallamused:

[luckythepirate]

I can't tell you how much I'm looking forward to people telling me how much better the ORIGINAL was before they cheapened it in the remake.

in the back of my mind im realistic, i know how disappointed i will be. that said, still the best news i have ever heard. been listening to the ost for the last 3 or so hours.

[luckythepirate]

1/4 of an internet to first person who catches what's wrong in this article about the remake: http://techcrunch.com/2015/06/15/final-fantasy-vii-next-gen-hd-remake-coming-to-ps4-first/

:)

wouldn't expect any different from "that" website.

[Gnoman]

"... and anyone who’s a fan of Squall and Seifer and their epic rivalry ..."

Alright! I hope I get to customize my gunblade this time around. :smallamused:

They also have FFVIII's release date instead of VII's. That said, there's no doubt that the FFVII remake is happening, and the main fear I'm seeing online is that Squeenix will introduce the rather flawed EU characterizations (which ARE pretty bad) in place of the original.

[Heliomance]

I just hope they keep the old-style battle mechanics. Really not a fan of the FFXIII mechanics, where there's very little reason to ever do anything other than just accept the autobattle commands.

[luckythepirate]

I just hope they keep the old-style battle mechanics. Really not a fan of the FFXIII mechanics, where there's very little reason to ever do anything other than just accept the autobattle commands.

i promise its going to have 1. new music 2. action based rpg system 3. voice acting. if nothing else, i hope they keep the materia system the same.

[Heliomance]

i promise its going to have 1. new music 2. action based rpg system 3. voice acting. if nothing else, i hope they keep the materia system the same.

You don't know any more than anyone else. And they're keeping at least some of the original music - did you not catch that sequence from the intro in the trailer?

[luckythepirate]

did you not catch that sequence from the intro in the trailer?

if your talking about the meteor symbol that was not the original music. meaning it was the re release of the ost when it wasnt in midi. aside from that, none of that was the original music. voice acting is a given. as for what they will do with the battle system, your right i cant say one way or the other, but if i know squarenix, and they have burned me a few times, they will change it.

[Togath]

I honestly don't get the super appeal of the final fantasy series... Especially the fanaticism over 7...
The gameplay of most of them has always seemed off to me(other than the mmos and 12), and everything I've heard about 7 makes it sound... Kinda bland, especially the setting.
I mean, if they change the combat to be fully turn based to fully action, I might check it out. But the weird final fantasy mix isn't my kind of thing.

[luckythepirate]

I honestly don't get the super appeal of the final fantasy series... Especially the fanaticism over 7...
The gameplay of most of them has always seemed off to me(other than the mmos and 12), and everything I've heard about 7 makes it sound... Kinda bland, especially the setting.
I mean, if they change the combat to be fully turn based to fully action, I might check it out. But the weird final fantasy mix isn't my kind of thing.

i wish others could have experienced it the way i did.

[Heliomance]

if your talking about the meteor symbol that was not the original music. meaning it was the re release of the ost when it wasnt in midi. aside from that, none of that was the original music. voice acting is a given. as for what they will do with the battle system, your right i cant say one way or the other, but if i know squarenix, and they have burned me a few times, they will change it.

Well, no, obviously they're not going to use the original MIDI music, that would be ridiculous. By "the original music", I mean "Nobuo's compositions, re-orchestrated". Which is exactly what played over the title screen. Which means I think we can safely assume that at least some of the original score will be retained.

As for the battle system, I'm cautiously optimistic. They have to know that if they screw this up, it will hurt them badly. The point of this remake is to cash in on the nostalgia of old fans. With how expensive they've repeatedly said remaking FFVII will be, if they don't manage to satisfy that nostalgia, they could stand to lose a hell of a lot of money.

[Gnoman]

The FF7 music wasn't in MIDI on the PS1. Indeed, the MIDI music of the PC port is a much-cited reason why said port is considered subpar.

[GloatingSwine]

i promise its going to have 1. new music 2. action based rpg system 3. voice acting. if nothing else, i hope they keep the materia system the same.

To be honest, I think the Materia system is one of the worst progression mechanics ever in an FF game. (Second only to the junction system). I would much prefer the completely rework it to be much more like FFIX's system and have all the characters have unique abilities and strengths.

[luckythepirate]

They have to know that if they screw this up, it will hurt them badly

heh im one of the people that got burned on ff14. so i have no faith in them. still hope its good though.

as for materia, i loved it. granted aside from limit breaks you could end up with 3 of the same exact character, but that never happened with me.

[lord_khaine]

To be honest, I think the Materia system is one of the worst progression mechanics ever in an FF game. (Second only to the junction system). I would much prefer the completely rework it to be much more like FFIX's system and have all the characters have unique abilities and strengths.

I widely agree, personally i would hope for something as diverse as FFVI or FFX ability wise.

But as long as its not something like any of the newer systems, like the ones post FFX, then ill be happy.

[Hopeless]

So anyone expecting them to have a scene where Sephiroth comes face to face with Lightning and say, "Hi Mum!":smallwink:

[Eldariel]

How can they just skip out on the best FF in FF6 and move on straight to 7...

[Ogremindes]

How can they just skip out on the best FF in FF6 and move on straight to 7...

What would they even do with 6? It already looks, sounds and plays great. And the times they've touched 6 in the past... well they completely wrecked my favorite scene in the game in the GBA version (They changed "And now it might just save us. The Falcon." to a goofy comic relief line.) and added horrible looking HD sprites to the mobile port.

[lord_khaine]

How can they just skip out on the best FF in FF6 and move on straight to 7...

Yeah this does seem kinda strange, now they did remake the first set of games, though i wonder if its not just because its 2 different teams doing the remakes.

[McNum]

The FF7 music wasn't in MIDI on the PS1. Indeed, the MIDI music of the PC port is a much-cited reason why said port is considered subpar.
The Steam version actually got updated to have the PS1 music.

So Final Fantasy 7 gets a remake. Neat. That's going to be interesting. And "First on Playstation". Not "Only on Playstation". What is this remake getting released for? PC as well?

I hope for a PC version, since there are people, like me, who first experienced Final Fantasy 7 as a PC game. So, if this remake is to be accurate, it needs to run on exactly one hardware configuration and be awful at anything else. I buid at PC to play Final Fantasy 7 properly back then. 3Dfx video card and Sound Blaster AWE32 Sound Card. My PC version had lyrics on One Winged Angel. :smallsmile:

Honestly, the fact that the Steam version is easy to install and run is almost disappointing. Almost.

[Gnoman]

Yeah this does seem kinda strange, now they did remake the first set of games, though i wonder if its not just because its 2 different teams doing the remakes.

I and II didn't get that much more than a facelift, some under the hood mechanics changes, and some tacked on bonus content. III got a full remake because they literally couldn't rerelease it any other way - all of the assets had been thrown out. IV, V, and VI have already gotten minor ports, and they decided to HDify X and X-2 because the PS3 was not PS2 backwards compatible, rendering the PS2 games less accessible than the PS1 games.

IV and (now) VII are really the only ones that have gotten the full remake treatment, although I wouldn't be surprised if VIII and/or IX follow should VII-R be a success.



The Steam version actually got updated to have the PS1 music.


Did it? I knew that the original PC version could get the better music via modding, and that they updated those mods for the Steam release, but I didn't know that they officially fixed it. Still, my point was that FFVII's music was not originally MIDI.

[McNum]

Did it? I knew that the original PC version could get the better music via modding, and that they updated those mods for the Steam release, but I didn't know that they officially fixed it. Still, my point was that FFVII's music was not originally MIDI.
Yeah, it did. It actually started out having the worst solution for Final Fantasy 7 music ever. The old midi files, recorded in an awful soundfont, as .ogg files, so even if you had a sound card with good midi, you couldn't use it. A later patch replaced every single .ogg file with recordings of the PS1 soundtrack instead. One can only imagine why they did the wrong way first.

But yes, the original disk FF7 had midi music, and only a Sound Blaster AWE32 or AWE64 was supported to load the custom soundfonts that would make it sound like the PS1 version. It even had the lyrics for OWA in midi.

[Razade]

All this announcement tells me is that Square Enix ran out of fresh ideas in 1997. They're going to beat this dead horse until it can't even be used for glue.

[danzibr]

Well that was beautiful.

I too wonder about the gameplay. I mean, it says REMAKE (even all caps). They could do anything with it. Like take away the W-Item glitch.

Also, I always heard (supposedly a big wig at Squeenix said this) that a remake of FFVII meant the death of the series. So... no FFXVI?

Nah, let's be serious. As long as FF makes money, we'll get more FF's.

And now I have reason to buy a PS4.

[RoyVG]

Secretly I was hoping that they wouldn't t end up giving in to the demand for a remake. SE has said time and time again that 'doing a remake with the current generation of consoles (this was I believe during the PS3 era) would take too much time and resources'.

Maybe I'm biased, or maybe because I played the game after the PS2 was already out (and finished FFX), but VII never had such a big impact on me. I'm not sure if I would buy it or not.

I really think VII need a big system overhaul to be a solid enough RPG by today's standard. Back then they were the standard so they could do whatever they wanted, but with all the different kinds of games that followed in iits success, the issues the game has are even more glaring than before. The Materia system, while innovative and full of potential, just fell flat because it allowed all charcater to be mages by simply throwing more magic Materia at them. I would rather have a FFIX or FFX style progression that give all characters a more defined role in combat in the first periods of the game, and later allow character to dip into the features of the other characters (make Barret a fricking mage for all I care).

We'll see how it urns out when it finally releases someday.

[danzibr]

FFVII had a huge impact on me because it was the 1st big RPG I played. I was 10 at the time, very impressionable. The only RPG I played before it was Phantasy Star IV.

I for one like the old combat system but would love something like Dragon's Dogma. Or Lightning Returns. But I'm kind of falling out of love with "random battles."

[Quild]

When I saw the article this morning, my first reaction was something like "Yeah, the game was good and I'd gladly do it again, but... is a remake really necessary?"
Then I watched the trailer.

Now I want it. I'm glad I already decided to buy a PS4 next week (na-na-na batman)


1/4 of an internet to first person who catches what's wrong in this article about the remake: http://techcrunch.com/2015/06/15/final-fantasy-vii-next-gen-hd-remake-coming-to-ps4-first/

:)

They fixed the names. However release date is indicated as 1999 which probably is (still) the release date of FF8. FF7 was released in 1997.

[Seerow]

To be honest, I think the Materia system is one of the worst progression mechanics ever in an FF game. (Second only to the junction system). I would much prefer the completely rework it to be much more like FFIX's system and have all the characters have unique abilities and strengths.

As a counter point, I felt that Materia was one of the best customization systems, and was what really made the game for me despite it's sometimes meandering and overly convoluted plot. Final Fantasy IX on the other hand I loved for the story, and its graphics, but absolutely hated its customization system. If they completely reworked FFVII's system to be more like IX, it would totally kill the remake for me.

Similarly making it an action RPG would be a major mistake. Changing it to be something closer to FFX's turn system instead of the ATB would be cool, or some other tweak on mechanics (maybe something similar to Bravely Default?)... but real time action RPG? No. I don't like those games at all, and that's another good way to ruin it.

[Forbiddenwar]

I'm in the camp of why bother. The steam version is great: costs a few bucks, runs on a toaster, and you can just turn off the material grinding. What point is there in a remake? Even just HDfying it could ruin a game, as the art and aesthetics were designed for low resolution. I still think the original 16 bit art in ff1 is worlds better than the HD creepy doll sprites in the remakes.

So what good is a remake, and how would it compete with the Steam version?

[Closet_Skeleton]

Nah, let's be serious. As long as FF makes money, we'll get more FF's.

That's the thing though. FF is not 'making money', its 'just about recouping its constantly bloating production costs while second rate franchises like Tales of _ outsell it'.

[DiscipleofBob]

Predictions:

- removal of any kind of overworld, instead using the Eternal Hallway of Doom style from FFX and FXIII
- change of battle system to something similar to FFXIII where you get very little control over characters
- removal of "cartoony" scenes like half of the Wall Market for example for gritty realism
- a lot of really unnecessarily added and delivered dialogue with voice-acting that somehow sucks all the personality out of the characters
- making everything from the Materia to the equipment system needlessly complicated with a bunch of completely pointless "extra features"
- plot changes and extra references to keep the "canon" of some of the spinoff material we'd rather forget

I really, really hope I'm wrong and the game keeps all the good of the original.

[GloatingSwine]

As a counter point, I felt that Materia was one of the best customization systems, and was what really made the game for me despite it's sometimes meandering and overly convoluted plot. Final Fantasy IX on the other hand I loved for the story, and its graphics, but absolutely hated its customization system. If they completely reworked FFVII's system to be more like IX, it would totally kill the remake for me.

The issue I have with it is that it means that the characters don't express any mechanical uniqueness. Because everything they do except their limit break is determined by materia (and their stats at endgame are largely overridden by the gimmick weapons) nothing expresses how Cloud might be different from Red XIII or Yuffie or whatever. They are fundamentally mechanically identical, which doesn't display any unique properties of their characters.

[Seerow]

The issue I have with it is that it means that the characters don't express any mechanical uniqueness. Because everything they do except their limit break is determined by materia (and their stats at endgame are largely overridden by the gimmick weapons) nothing expresses how Cloud might be different from Red XIII or Yuffie or whatever. They are fundamentally mechanically identical, which doesn't display any unique properties of their characters.

I don't see what's wrong with that. That is actually what I liked about it, being able to set any character into any role I desired. Rather than say being forced to use certain characters to fill a certain role, play whoever you want and make them work the way you want. And the materia allowed for a ton of customization within a character.

I wouldn't mind seeing something like weapons/armor with more interesting interactions with materia. The materia links to allow modification of abilities was great, having some that are built into a weapon, or a weapon that provides increased benefits with certain types of materia. That would be a fair compromise in my opinion between the way things were and making characters more mechanically distinct.

As long as all of the characters still can do anything, just some may not be quite as good, and the materia system in general remains in place, I'll be happy. But if we end up with a game where Vincent can't function as a summoner because they decided that was RedXIII's shtick, or Cid can't act as a cover/counter attacking tank because they felt it was more appropriate for him to focus on Jump, or Cloud can't be an awesome spellcaster because he's supposed to use his giant sword, I will be very upset.

[danzibr]

The issue I have with it is that it means that the characters don't express any mechanical uniqueness. Because everything they do except their limit break is determined by materia (and their stats at endgame are largely overridden by the gimmick weapons) nothing expresses how Cloud might be different from Red XIII or Yuffie or whatever. They are fundamentally mechanically identical, which doesn't display any unique properties of their characters.
This!

FFVII is one of my favorite games of all time. BUT I do have a big beef with the game. Other than limit breaks (which are quite similar), weapons (which are very similar), and to a lesser extent armor, the characters are all mechanically identical.

[Seerow]

This!

FFVII is one of my favorite games of all time. BUT I do have a big beef with the game. Other than limit breaks (which are quite similar), weapons (which are very similar), and to a lesser extent armor, the characters are all mechanically identical.

They're only as identical as characters in Final Fantasy Tactics or Final Fantasy 5. In that any character can theoretically do anything, but in practice you should develop specialized kits for the character. It is what makes materia so great, that you can use it to specialize the characters.

[danzibr]

They're only as identical as characters in Final Fantasy Tactics or Final Fantasy 5. In that any character can theoretically do anything, but in practice you should develop specialized kits for the character. It is what makes materia so great, that you can use it to specialize the characters.
For that same reason I don't like FFT (well, I don't like that for other reasons) or FFV. In fact, for 5 I think I had essentially 3 of the same melee build and 1 caster.

I mean, I see the appeal but just prefer other stuff.

[Traab]

Im mostly hoping for updated graphics, and maybe a more streamlined early game. I HATED playign through the start of ff7 till we left Kalm. I hated it so much, that the third time I forced my way through it, I made a separate save game file just so every new game after could skip that junk. Too much cinematics and flashbacks and dialogue for me. I dont mind there being some, but that early section of the game, especially the flashback session in Kalm really annoyed the heck out of me. FF7 was a fun game and it really did a good job as what to me, a FF game should be. It had lots of secrets and side quests, it had farmable stuff, it had mini games, a decent story, though admittedly it confused me the first time or two I played. I just hope they dont change too much of the underlying game in their effort to update it.

[Wraith]

.....I wouldn't be surprised if VIII and/or *IX* follow should VII-R be a success.

I was always under the impression - I forget where or when I was told - that FFIX will never get a remake because it never had a PC port back in the day. Something to do with needing the original source-code, which is now long gone and so the only way to remake IX would be to literally remake it from the ground up.

Having said that, it'll run on a PC emulator with some patience (yes, I still have my PS1 and original FFIX disks before anyone asks :smalltongue: ) and Microsoft utterly insisted that it was not possible for the XBox ONE to be made backwards compatible with XBox 360 games until they announced that's exactly what they were doing this week.

With those two pieces of information in mind, I will continue to live in hope - while I adored FFVII, IX was the one that I never finished and always remember most fondly, so maybe.... just maybe..... :smallwink:

[Traab]

Nine was the one with zidane, vivi and steiner right? I loved that game. Still do. I have a couple memory cards with various games on it. FF9 is one of the few I have ever actually beaten.

[GloatingSwine]

I don't see what's wrong with that. That is actually what I liked about it, being able to set any character into any role I desired. Rather than say being forced to use certain characters to fill a certain role, play whoever you want and make them work the way you want. And the materia allowed for a ton of customization within a character.

What this functionally meant though was that everyone got set up the same way, because also magic was rarely any better than attacking unless there was an element to exploit, and because everyone's stats were relatively close together anyway (and the gimmicks of the final weapons made much more difference than actual stats) there wasn't even any room to "make Cloud a spellcaster", it didn't actually matter. Everyone was a spellcaster all the time (because you needed the AP so you never left slots empty), the only difference was what elements they happened to be using, and they were all roughly equally good at it with very minor variations in output.

At least when you are using a job system game the characters are only good at what their current job is good at (and you tend to travel through the jobs in ways that let the commands you learned in one best support the next one so characters remain quite distinct until super late game). In FFVII everyone was equally good at everything all the time, so you just picked the best limit breaks.

[huttj509]

They're only as identical as characters in Final Fantasy Tactics or Final Fantasy 5. In that any character can theoretically do anything, but in practice you should develop specialized kits for the character. It is what makes materia so great, that you can use it to specialize the characters.

Though the specialization is tied to the orbs, not the character.

I make Cloud a healer, with leveled materia for healing and such? Tifa can take his stuff and now be the specialized healer.


Contrast with FF 5's job system, where everyone could learn everything (eventually), but specialization was tied to the character, not the job. If Bartz masters Ranger, Lenna can't use X-Strike by switching to Ranger, but Bartz can keep using X-Strike if he switches to Ninja.

[Seerow]

For that same reason I don't like FFT (well, I don't like that for other reasons) or FFV. In fact, for 5 I think I had essentially 3 of the same melee build and 1 caster.

I mean, I see the appeal but just prefer other stuff.

I am guessing you're also not a big D&D fan? For me large amounts of customization is a huge draw, and Materia allows by far the most interesting unique combinations of any Final Fantasy system I've seen.


What this functionally meant though was that everyone got set up the same way, because also magic was rarely any better than attacking unless there was an element to exploit, and because everyone's stats were relatively close together anyway (and the gimmicks of the final weapons made much more difference than actual stats) there wasn't even any room to "make Cloud a spellcaster", it didn't actually matter. Everyone was a spellcaster all the time (because you needed the AP so you never left slots empty), the only difference was what elements they happened to be using, and they were all roughly equally good at it with very minor variations in output.

Except if you want to focus on physical attacks, you have things like Attack All, Double Cut, Long Range, Attack Up, Added Effect, and Steal as Well. And you will probably also add stuff like HP Up, Cover, Defense Up, Counter Attack. A physical character is also likely where you want to add things like Elemental paired with one of the basic magic materias.

And then besides that there's the possibility to make a Gish type character using Added-Cut paired with a spell, and using that with X-Magic could be quite devastating.

Or you could go full on caster, using Quadra Magic, W-Magic, MP Turbo, MP Absorb, and Magic Counter with various spell materia. While just casting a basic fire spell is going to be worse than a standard attack, a character actually outfitted for spellcasting will dramatically outperform a regular attacker.


At least when you are using a job system game the characters are only good at what their current job is good at (and you tend to travel through the jobs in ways that let the commands you learned in one best support the next one so characters remain quite distinct until super late game). In FFVII everyone was equally good at everything all the time, so you just picked the best limit breaks.



Though the specialization is tied to the orbs, not the character.


I'm not sure I see the problem here. I mean it boils down to "play whatever character you want". Being able to play a character without having to spend 10 hours grinding them up to level with the rest of the party is a good thing. Not needing to go spend hours grinding when one of your party is not available for story reasons is also a good thing.

Yes any character can become the same as another character with a couple minutes of moving materia around. But in play the characters you are actively using will not play the same unless you are unimaginative and don't take advantage of the customization materia provides. And if you really want to make them all distinct, come up with a different niche/materia set up for each of them. The tools are there to use, you just have to use them rather than auto attacking through everything.

[danzibr]

I am guessing you're also not a big D&D fan? For me large amounts of customization is a huge draw, and Materia allows by far the most interesting unique combinations of any Final Fantasy system I've seen.
I'm a huge D&D fan.

Hmm, I dunno how to put it. Looking at other games, I like say Phantasy Star IV (each character gets his/her own spells and techniques and gear), XenoGears ("magic" and gears are different), Xenoblade (arts and stuff are different), Chrono Trigger, Super Mario RPG, Star Ocean 2, Breath of Fire 3, etc.

Now don't get me wrong, I love FFVII very much and I love the materia system. What I don't like is that all the characters feel the same mechanically. Like, if their weapons or limit breaks were more varied that'd go a long way. The only special things which come to mind are ranged weapons (which make little difference, usually) and weapons with max accuracy (which again make little difference). Weapons even come in sets, where it's like everyone gets a weapon with 3 double materia slots. Ultimate weapons are always 4 double with no growth. For limit breaks, most of them deal direct damage. Sometimes you get a status effect (debuff for the enemy or buff for the allies), but the character with the most unique limit breaks isn't available for the last 2/3 of the game.

Take FFVI for example. The characters felt different. Magicite makes them all the same magically, but at least they have their own abilities. Or in Breath of Fire 3 you can use masters to give anyone great skills and mold them however you wish with stat development (though some characters are clearly better suited for certain roles than others).

Suikoden is another FFVII-like example in this regard. So many of the characters just feel so generic. I love the game but the similarity is a weakness.

[DiscipleofBob]

I'm a huge D&D fan.

Hmm, I dunno how to put it. Looking at other games, I like say Phantasy Star IV (each character gets his/her own spells and techniques and gear), XenoGears ("magic" and gears are different), Xenoblade (arts and stuff are different), Chrono Trigger, Super Mario RPG, Star Ocean 2, Breath of Fire 3, etc.

Now don't get me wrong, I love FFVII very much and I love the materia system. What I don't like is that all the characters feel the same mechanically. Like, if their weapons or limit breaks were more varied that'd go a long way. The only special things which come to mind are ranged weapons (which make little difference, usually) and weapons with max accuracy (which again make little difference). Weapons even come in sets, where it's like everyone gets a weapon with 3 double materia slots. Ultimate weapons are always 4 double with no growth. For limit breaks, most of them deal direct damage. Sometimes you get a status effect (debuff for the enemy or buff for the allies), but the character with the most unique limit breaks isn't available for the last 2/3 of the game.

Take FFVI for example. The characters felt different. Magicite makes them all the same magically, but at least they have their own abilities. Or in Breath of Fire 3 you can use masters to give anyone great skills and mold them however you wish with stat development (though some characters are clearly better suited for certain roles than others).

Suikoden is another FFVII-like example in this regard. So many of the characters just feel so generic. I love the game but the similarity is a weakness.

I'd actually argue the opposite when comparing FFVI and FFVII. Limit breaks are different enough in VII as well as base stats and weapons that each character still has their own abilities, but especially mid-to-late game VI most unique abilities are overshadowed by equipment choices that are often almost universal or everyone getting the same kinds of magic. Not to mention most of the special abilities are some variations of "do more damage." There aren't any real situation where you absolutely have to take this character or that character becomes extremely advantageous. Everyone just has a slightly different way of doing more damage. In FFVII, there are enemies that require long-range weapons or materia to even touch. Sometimes you need specific Limit Breaks like Seal Evil, Mindblow, or Cross Slash to stand a chance against a particular boss.

Now I still prefer VI for different reasons, but the characters from a mechanical perspective are still pretty samey.

[Hunter Noventa]

I certainly hope they don't make the progression like IX, I can't stand the whole learning abilities from equipment mechanics. It annoyed me in IX, TA and TA2. that said The Materia system could use an update, it's a fun system, and I've been following an LP of FF7 that shows off a lot of the crazy stuff you can do with the right combos, but the amount of grind is rather maddening.

And like most people, I agree that they need to keep that EU crap far far away. let's hope someone is there to put a muzzle on Nomura when necessary.

[Gnoman]

I was always under the impression - I forget where or when I was told - that FFIX will never get a remake because it never had a PC port back in the day. Something to do with needing the original source-code, which is now long gone and so the only way to remake IX would be to literally remake it from the ground up.


You would need the original to do a basic port - like the FFVII and FFVIII Steam releases. The original is useless for a ground-up remake in a new engine of the sort FFVII is now getting.




As for VII-R, I really doubt that there will be significant changes to the mechanics. Additions? Almost certainly, but there are only two real mechanics changes (FFI went from a D&D-style spell level system to an MP one, and they replaced III's capacity points for class changes with a sickness mechanic) in any of the other ports or remakes, so I find it very unlikely that they'd screw around with VII's. They'll probably give us a few bonus dungeons, some new materia, and some extra superbosses; or provide gameplay extensions like FFIV DS/PC Augments, but that's probably it.

[danzibr]

I'd actually argue the opposite when comparing FFVI and FFVII. Limit breaks are different enough in VII as well as base stats and weapons that each character still has their own abilities, but especially mid-to-late game VI most unique abilities are overshadowed by equipment choices that are often almost universal or everyone getting the same kinds of magic. Not to mention most of the special abilities are some variations of "do more damage." There aren't any real situation where you absolutely have to take this character or that character becomes extremely advantageous. Everyone just has a slightly different way of doing more damage. In FFVII, there are enemies that require long-range weapons or materia to even touch. Sometimes you need specific Limit Breaks like Seal Evil, Mindblow, or Cross Slash to stand a chance against a particular boss.

Now I still prefer VI for different reasons, but the characters from a mechanical perspective are still pretty samey.
Good points, good points.

I forgot to mention the things like limit breaks which FFVI has. Desperation attacks. But... they're almost all just high damage attacks.

Regarding the necessary setups for certain bosses, from what I can recall I would just set everyone up in such a manner. So you need long range to attack a boss? Some characters have it naturally, some need Long Range. Element to exploit? Load up with the right materia. Need a specific limit break? Nope, I never did.

Hmm, ya know, regarding V, VI, and VII, end-game they all have the same problem. That is, get the best setup on everyone. But for V and VI this doesn't happen until end-game. In VII you can swap materia around on the fly. I guess... for me, just my personal preference, I like it when you build your character a certain way and that's what they are.

As huttj509 said, the specialization is tied to the orbs, not the character.

[Seerow]

I certainly hope they don't make the progression like IX, I can't stand the whole learning abilities from equipment mechanics. It annoyed me in IX, TA and TA2. that said The Materia system could use an update, it's a fun system, and I've been following an LP of FF7 that shows off a lot of the crazy stuff you can do with the right combos, but the amount of grind is rather maddening.

I agree that the grind could definitely stand to be reduced significantly (especially the grind to master the materia to get more materia); and some of the more fun materia being introduced earlier would be a massive boon to the game. I think a lot of the complaints about characters all being the same comes from a lot of the really fun combos that can be more impactful than attacking every turn don't show up until relatively late in the game or take a lot of grinding to have enough copies of certain materia to really do it right.

Also agree with abilities coming from equipment being really annoying. Not -quite- as bad in FFIX, but in FFTA that was what made me quit the game. Especially since some equipment can only be gained by doing weird things 99% of people won't figure out without looking up online. I don't remember exactly what it was, but I do remember trying to figure out how to get a few abilities and being frustrated by how much of a run-around it was to get them.

Out of curiosity, what FF7 LP is this? I am interested.

[danzibr]

Out of curiosity, what FF7 LP is this? I am interested.
As am I.

While we're at it, I'd like to say I want to see more types of chocobo. Silver, red, flying, ones that fly into outer space, ones that go under the ocean. Ya know, all the wacky stuff people on gamefaqs made up over the years.

[Calemyr]

I both love and hate VII. On one hand, it had some of the most powerful sequences I'd seen in a video game when it first came out. Not just Aerith (made worse by leaving her spot on the menu screen open for the rest of the game), but there were a lot of sequences that were just cool. I remember proudly showing them to my folks back then, and Vincent still is a favorite of mine.

However, I hated the game because it also marked a new era in RPGs, where graphics seemed to take precedence over story. It didn't matter if the story made sense, or was even good for the most part, as long as it was pretty. We went from steak and potatoes to Chinese food - extremely tasty, but you're hungry in less than an hour. And the fact that there are still people that claim Sephiroth is a better villain than Kefka... That's a joke, this is not the place for that debate.

Honestly if there WAS a Final Fantasy that needed a remake, VII would be it. I-III get by on retro looks. IV-VI hit that aesthetic sweet spot (to me) that somehow manages to never get that outdated. VIII is still pretty decent, 9 went for an art style that works well with the technology of the time, and X and beyond are still recent enough to look good. VII, on the other hand, did not age well at all and it was a game that banked pretty heavily on its looks.

I'd get VII-R if it gets released here in the states. Regardless of the problems I had with it, it was still a darn good game and an important part of my time as a gamer. Hopefully they'll tighten things up without losing too much of it's old style.

Also, as much as I adore anything VI-related, I don't see it ever getting a remake. An updated re-release (like the GBA version), maybe, but FFVI really kind of represents the perfection of the art for sprite-based RPGs. Outside of more content, there's not much you can do to improve it.

[Seerow]

So random thought of something I wouldn't mind that might solve concerns for some people: What if you could bond with a materia, making it so that materia wasn't tradeable to others, and in exchange getting dramatically increased AP growth (like x5 or x10), and possibly unlock an extra level of abilities for the materia. I feel like that would solve some of the issues of character identity, since if that's a big deal to you, you bind all of your materia to the characters and suddenly all of cloud's awesome magic isn't hot swappable to Tifa. Or if you like the flexibility, you leave it all unbound, do some extra grinding, and have powerful materia that anybody can use.


Not that it really matters since Square obviously isn't consulting me for design ideas. But it seems like a decent enough compromise to me. At least on the front of "I want to be able to develop abilities that are bound to the character"; frankly anything to try to bring the game into a rigid class system a la FFIX or even a soft class system like the FFX and later titles is something I'm going to be vehemently against. Those systems can be fun, but they are very much not FFVII.

[Gnoman]

Out of curiosity, what FF7 LP is this? I am interested.


As am I.


I don't know if it's the one he was talking about, but this (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3415223) one I've been following fits the bill, if SA hasn't member-locked the board.

[danzibr]

So random thought of something I wouldn't mind that might solve concerns for some people: What if you could bond with a materia, making it so that materia wasn't tradeable to others, and in exchange getting dramatically increased AP growth (like x5 or x10), and possibly unlock an extra level of abilities for the materia. I feel like that would solve some of the issues of character identity, since if that's a big deal to you, you bind all of your materia to the characters and suddenly all of cloud's awesome magic isn't hot swappable to Tifa. Or if you like the flexibility, you leave it all unbound, do some extra grinding, and have powerful materia that anybody can use.

Not that it really matters since Square obviously isn't consulting me for design ideas. But it seems like a decent enough compromise to me. At least on the front of "I want to be able to develop abilities that are bound to the character"; frankly anything to try to bring the game into a rigid class system a la FFIX or even a soft class system like the FFX and later titles is something I'm going to be vehemently against. Those systems can be fun, but they are very much not FFVII.
That sounds like a system I'd like. Options for versatility and power at the expense of versatility. I wonder what games are like this.

I don't know if it's the one he was talking about, but this (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3415223) one I've been following fits the bill, if SA hasn't member-locked the board.
I'm checking out the fan art. Good so far.

Thanks!

[JadedDM]

I wonder if they'll keep the hot tub scene...

[danzibr]

I wonder if they'll keep the hot tub scene...
I sure hope so, bubby (smile, smile, smile).

[Antonok]

I wonder if they'll keep the hot tub scene...


I sure hope so, bubby (smile, smile, smile).

Little bit of hope on this actually. (http://www.vg247.com/2015/06/17/final-fantasy-7-director-says-please-look-forward-to-crossdressing-cloud-in-the-gritty-remake/) May not be the hot tub scene in particular, but nice to know that the siller parts haven't been scrubbed.

[danzibr]

Little bit of hope on this actually. (http://www.vg247.com/2015/06/17/final-fantasy-7-director-says-please-look-forward-to-crossdressing-cloud-in-the-gritty-remake/) May not be the hot tub scene in particular, but nice to know that the siller parts haven't been scrubbed.
... that's a pretty Cloud.

[Wraith]

You would need the original to do a basic port - like the FFVII and FFVIII Steam releases. The original is useless for a ground-up remake in a new engine of the sort FFVII is now getting.

That honestly never even occurred to me.... I suppose that I would happily settle for a port of 'IX, not daring to dream of a remake. :smalltongue:

Having said that, IX never had the commercial success or cult following that VII did. VII sold nearly twice as many copies even before the Steam release, and wherever you go on the internet IX is always the forgotten middle child between the nostalgic IV and VI, the revolutionary VII and then the god-awful and irritating X and X-2. If Square Enix are taking a gamble that a VII-R will cost them too much and not make enough back, IX-R would be financial suicide by comparison. :smallfrown:

[Hunter Noventa]

Yeah that something awful LP is the one, it's been going to a couple years now, which is madness.

But then so has the Xenosaga LP...

[Starbuck_II]

I'm a huge D&D fan.

Hmm, I dunno how to put it. Looking at other games, I like say Phantasy Star IV (each character gets his/her own spells and techniques and gear), XenoGears ("magic" and gears are different), Xenoblade (arts and stuff are different), Chrono Trigger, Super Mario RPG, Star Ocean 2, Breath of Fire 3, etc.

Now don't get me wrong, I love FFVII very much and I love the materia system. What I don't like is that all the characters feel the same mechanically. Like, if their weapons or limit breaks were more varied that'd go a long way. The only special things which come to mind are ranged weapons (which make little difference, usually) and weapons with max accuracy (which again make little difference). Weapons even come in sets, where it's like everyone gets a weapon with 3 double materia slots. Ultimate weapons are always 4 double with no growth. For limit breaks, most of them deal direct damage. Sometimes you get a status effect (debuff for the enemy or buff for the allies), but the character with the most unique limit breaks isn't available for the last 2/3 of the game.

Take FFVI for example. The characters felt different. Magicite makes them all the same magically, but at least they have their own abilities. Or in Breath of Fire 3 you can use masters to give anyone great skills and mold them however you wish with stat development (though some characters are clearly better suited for certain roles than others).

Suikoden is another FFVII-like example in this regard. So many of the characters just feel so generic. I love the game but the similarity is a weakness.

FF6 was remade into Ponies.
They were made even more unique. Only Unicorns can use Espers. Skills like Blitz was changed around. Rage was changed around. Really good remake.

[danzibr]

FF6 was remade into Ponies.
They were made even more unique. Only Unicorns can use Espers. Skills like Blitz was changed around. Rage was changed around. Really good remake.
Holy crap that's epic.

[JadedDM]

My main concern at this point is how much of the story they'll change. They have made so many retcons over the years with the various spinoffs that I no longer have any idea what is going on anymore. If they do include that stuff, I hope they make it understandable and not rely on people having played the spinoffs. (I have no idea who Genesis is, for instance.)

I also hope they find a better word than 'clone' this time around because they really confused a lot of people back in the day.

[Rodin]

It'll be really interesting to come at the game as a newcomer...I've always been a FFVI fanboy and since I didn't own a Playstation I never played FFVII. I've toyed with the idea of going back and playing it over the years, but those graphics are just...wow. I always felt that the PS1 had horrible looking graphics even at the time and I've never regretted skipping that entire console generation.

I do hope they remain as faithful as possible while cutting out all the fluff. No more 2 minute long attack animations, please dear merciful GOD. The long animations in FFVIII were a large part of the reason I never finished it.

[Gnoman]

I do hope they remain as faithful as possible while cutting out all the fluff. No more 2 minute long attack animations, please dear merciful GOD. The long animations in FFVIII were a large part of the reason I never finished it.

If you were even seeing most of the long animations, in FVIII, you were playing the game pretty badly anyway - magic and summons were completely and utterly worthless for most of that game (with the sole exception of Tripled ultima or Meteor), since configuring your party to do more damage with basic attacks was trivial, and Limit Breaks trumped (the really powerful ones of whih had very short animations) everything.

[danzibr]

My main concern at this point is how much of the story they'll change. They have made so many retcons over the years with the various spinoffs that I no longer have any idea what is going on anymore. If they do include that stuff, I hope they make it understandable and not rely on people having played the spinoffs. (I have no idea who Genesis is, for instance.)

I also hope they find a better word than 'clone' this time around because they really confused a lot of people back in the day.
As much as I love the original (and I friggin' love it, it's been in my top 3 for almost 20 years, maybe #1), I wouldn't mind at all if they overhaul the plot. The only non-FFVII itself stuff I know is Advent Children, though I do want to play Dirge of Cerberus.

[Gnoman]

It's not plot changes that worry me, it's mechanical ones. I'm OK with them replacing the battle system with something like X's or X-2's (both of which were very good, and the latter was nearly perfect), but if they try to shove in an ARPG system I'm never buying a Square game again. This is their only chance to gain back at least one customer that XV lost them.

[Eldariel]

If you were even seeing most of the long animations, in FVIII, you were playing the game pretty badly anyway - magic and summons were completely and utterly worthless for most of that game (with the sole exception of Tripled ultima or Meteor), since configuring your party to do more damage with basic attacks was trivial, and Limit Breaks trumped (the really powerful ones of whih had very short animations) everything.

Well, Renzokuken into stuff did take a while and get a bit repetitive after a while...

[Gnoman]

Well, Renzokuken into stuff did take a while and get a bit repetitive after a while...

True, but the unreliability of Lionheart (unless you cheesed the Crisis Level) made Renzokuken second or third tier at best. Duel reliably outdamaged it, Shot easily beat anything except Lionheart (and was faster, since you didn't need to inflict Vit0 first.


More importantly, if you managed to get Lionheart, you'd see it at most once per fight - everything up to and including Ultima Weapon is a one-shot kill for LH, and two or three at most for Duel or Shot.

[danzibr]

It's not plot changes that worry me, it's mechanical ones. I'm OK with them replacing the battle system with something like X's or X-2's (both of which were very good, and the latter was nearly perfect), but if they try to shove in an ARPG system I'm never buying a Square game again. This is their only chance to gain back at least one customer that XV lost them.
Ya know, I was thinking about this. One of my favorite games ever for gameplay is Dragon's Dogma. I'd love to see a system like this where you can freely switch between your characters, and each character plays differently, like how FFXV was originally going to be. Granted if they couldn't do it for XV I doubt we'll see it for VII-R.

I'd be perfectly content with ATB though. Really, the combat system from VII or X or Lightning Returns would make me happy. For LR I suppose you'd switch characters rather than outfits.

Of all of them I think I'd prefer X, character swap and all.

[Gnoman]

Ya know, I was thinking about this. One of my favorite games ever for gameplay is Dragon's Dogma. I'd love to see a system like this where you can freely switch between your characters, and each character plays differently, like how FFXV was originally going to be. Granted if they couldn't do it for XV I doubt we'll see it for VII-R.

I'd be perfectly content with ATB though. Really, the combat system from VII or X or Lightning Returns would make me happy. For LR I suppose you'd switch characters rather than outfits.

Of all of them I think I'd prefer X, character swap and all.

I wasn't even thinking of character switching - adding that from X or XII would be good.

It's not that I dislike ARPGs in general, I'm just vehemently opposed to a Final Fantasy one - the Mana series hasn't had a good game in a long time (the last new Mana game I remember being made was Dawn of Mana, which was garbage), they have Kingdom Hearts, Star Ocean, and the Vagrant Story engine. With all that for options, there is no reason NOT to keep the FF series traditional, or (if they really need a change), make it an SRPG (which they only seem to have one franchise of, and that's pure sci-fi).

[Antonok]

It's not plot changes that worry me, it's mechanical ones. I'm OK with them replacing the battle system with something like X's or X-2's (both of which were very good, and the latter was nearly perfect), but if they try to shove in an ARPG system I'm never buying a Square game again. This is their only chance to gain back at least one customer that XV lost them.

But but.... XV hasn't even came out yet....

But yes, I agree. If they change to be like 12's completely active or 13's control the main char/almost always only use auto combat I will avoid it like the plague. The battle system in those games are what drove people away. I still remember the hate 12 got from it.

[danzibr]

I wasn't even thinking of character switching - adding that from X or XII would be good.

It's not that I dislike ARPGs in general, I'm just vehemently opposed to a Final Fantasy one - the Mana series hasn't had a good game in a long time (the last new Mana game I remember being made was Dawn of Mana, which was garbage), they have Kingdom Hearts, Star Ocean, and the Vagrant Story engine. With all that for options, there is no reason NOT to keep the FF series traditional, or (if they really need a change), make it an SRPG (which they only seem to have one franchise of, and that's pure sci-fi).
SRPG! My favorite genre. Didn't even consider it. I doubt it'll happen, but I'd like it. I mean, if they did it right.

I think you have a great point though. ATB is one thing FF did and did well.

To be completely honest, I think I'd like a system like Dragon's Dogma over anything else, but X and LR are close seconds.

But but.... XV hasn't even came out yet....

But yes, I agree. If they change to be like 12's completely active or 13's control the main char/almost always only use auto combat I will avoid it like the plague. The battle system in those games are what drove people away. I still remember the hate 12 got from it.
I'd like a system like XII. In fact, the battle system was one of the few things I liked about it. Boring characters, weak summons, few options in combat, crappy AI, but being able to run around freely and not go to different screens for combat was appealing.

Ya know, I really didn't like XII.

[Gnoman]

But but.... XV hasn't even came out yet....


XV could be the greatest game ever made, and it will still be a mainline FF game that is an action-RPG. In other words, an abomination.

[danzibr]

XV could be the greatest game ever made, and it will still be a mainline FF game that is an action-RPG. In other words, an abomination.
It wouldn't be an abomination if it had a different title?

[Gnoman]

It wouldn't be an abomination if it had a different title?

If it were not a mainline FF title, I would have no problem with it. I am a man of strong opinions, even if those opinions are not always rational.

My main objection is that the sort of RPG I like is dwindling in content - many series have already faded away, gone on to genuine innovations in gameplay that make them less attractive, or make me too uncomfortable to play them. FF has been the flagship of that style of games since before I could even read, and killing that for Kingdom Hearts wanna-be gameplay is very infuriating.

[Rodin]

If you were even seeing most of the long animations, in FVIII, you were playing the game pretty badly anyway - magic and summons were completely and utterly worthless for most of that game (with the sole exception of Tripled ultima or Meteor), since configuring your party to do more damage with basic attacks was trivial, and Limit Breaks trumped (the really powerful ones of whih had very short animations) everything.

I honestly didn't get far enough into the game for that to matter. I quit playing well before I was a third of the way through the game. Even the "incoming fight" animation was too long when you consider I grew up on FFVI which went BWOOP BWOOP and instantly dropped you into the fight instead of panning majestically around the arena for 5-10 seconds before every single fight.

Just let me press X to skip whatever animation is currently playing.

[huttj509]

I honestly didn't get far enough into the game for that to matter. I quit playing well before I was a third of the way through the game. Even the "incoming fight" animation was too long when you consider I grew up on FFVI which went BWOOP BWOOP and instantly dropped you into the fight instead of panning majestically around the arena for 5-10 seconds before every single fight.

Just let me press X to skip whatever animation is currently playing.

the fight start animation is hiding loading times.

And I guess you played FF 6 on the SNES , since the playstation version had annoying load times (as did chrono trigger on the PS).

Freaking disk media.

[Rodin]

the fight start animation is hiding loading times.

And I guess you played FF 6 on the SNES , since the playstation version had annoying load times (as did chrono trigger on the PS).

Freaking disk media.

Oh Lord, I remember seeing Chrono Trigger on the PS when a friend was playing it. About the only thing of worth out of that version were the cinematics. GokuChrono forever, yo.

[Starwulf]

FF6 was remade into Ponies.
They were made even more unique. Only Unicorns can use Espers. Skills like Blitz was changed around. Rage was changed around. Really good remake.


Holy crap that's epic.

That's not epic, that's sacrilege. Turning the greatest Final Fantasy ever made into a game with ponies? I'd like to slap the creator of that ><

[danzibr]

If it were not a mainline FF title, I would have no problem with it. I am a man of strong opinions, even if those opinions are not always rational.

My main objection is that the sort of RPG I like is dwindling in content - many series have already faded away, gone on to genuine innovations in gameplay that make them less attractive, or make me too uncomfortable to play them. FF has been the flagship of that style of games since before I could even read, and killing that for Kingdom Hearts wanna-be gameplay is very infuriating.
Indeed, indeed. I see what you mean. I mentioned SRPG being my favorite genre. It would be like if there were another Shining Force or Disgaea but not an SRPG.

Another demerit of "random" encounters going away: victory screen/dance and music go away.

That's not epic, that's sacrilege. Turning the greatest Final Fantasy ever made into a game with ponies? I'd like to slap the creator of that ><
Man, I guess I'm just not as... hmm, what's the word? I don't want to say picky. Not as... passionate about my FF. I've played every game in the series except the MMO's (including sequels, though I missed 1 or 2 not in the main series), yet the idea of Pony-style FFVI doesn't bother me at all. And I'm not even a big MLP fan.

[Traab]

I honestly didn't get far enough into the game for that to matter. I quit playing well before I was a third of the way through the game. Even the "incoming fight" animation was too long when you consider I grew up on FFVI which went BWOOP BWOOP and instantly dropped you into the fight instead of panning majestically around the arena for 5-10 seconds before every single fight.

Just let me press X to skip whatever animation is currently playing.

I just didnt like ff8 in general. I disliked the story, I disliked the leveling setup, I disliked the click a billion times to power up your summons, I especially disliked the random alien fights in space. Sorry, If I wanted to fight aliens, I would be playing phantasy star. 9 was the big saving grace of the series to me. I havent enjoyed a ff game since then. (mainly because I havent played any since x-2 or whatever the sequel was, annoyed me less than an hour into it)

For me the real drop in interest in playing rpgs happened around the time of breath of fire, dragon quarter. I like random battles, I cant explain why, but seeing visible enemies on screen I have to dodge to avoid fights or that charge me and start a fight annoys the crud out of me. Suddenly it seemed like every rpg I tried to play had that setup, monsters roaming the map and attacking me instead of random battles. Also I dislike grid battles where you have to try and maneuver yourself in a fight instead of just filling the atb gauge and attacking. I actually liked star ocean 2, still have a copy of it in fact, but I just dont much like that style of battle, though at least in SO2 you could give the other party members a preset fight plan so you didnt have to worry about them. It wasnt a deal breaker for me, but it was something I didnt much like.

[danzibr]

I just didnt like ff8 in general. I disliked the story, I disliked the leveling setup, I disliked the click a billion times to power up your summons, I especially disliked the random alien fights in space. Sorry, If I wanted to fight aliens, I would be playing phantasy star. 9 was the big saving grace of the series to me. I havent enjoyed a ff game since then. (mainly because I havent played any since x-2 or whatever the sequel was, annoyed me less than an hour into it)
I didn't like the bad-guys-level-up-with-you mechanic, and the fact that using magic makes you weaker, and the button mashing during GF summoning, and all the teen angst (even though I was like 13 when I played it), but I somehow overall enjoyed it.

For me the real drop in interest in playing rpgs happened around the time of breath of fire, dragon quarter. I like random battles, I cant explain why, but seeing visible enemies on screen I have to dodge to avoid fights or that charge me and start a fight annoys the crud out of me. Suddenly it seemed like every rpg I tried to play had that setup, monsters roaming the map and attacking me instead of random battles. Also I dislike grid battles where you have to try and maneuver yourself in a fight instead of just filling the atb gauge and attacking. I actually liked star ocean 2, still have a copy of it in fact, but I just dont much like that style of battle, though at least in SO2 you could give the other party members a preset fight plan so you didnt have to worry about them. It wasnt a deal breaker for me, but it was something I didnt much like.
That's been around since long before Dragon Quarter, and it doesn't particularly seem that RPGs made a huge shift around then. I didn't like Dragon Quarter at all fwiw.

I can't comment much on the grid battle stuff. When you said that, SO2 was indeed the first to come to mind, and I loved the hell out of that. I guess Lightning Returns has kind of a similar mechanic, but you're really slow.

For me, nowadays, I enjoy genuine random battles and games where you run onto a sprite on the field which sends you to a battle and just straight up fighting baddies on fields (like VII, LR, and XII, respectively).

[Rodin]

I just didnt like ff8 in general. I disliked the story, I disliked the leveling setup, I disliked the click a billion times to power up your summons, I especially disliked the random alien fights in space. Sorry, If I wanted to fight aliens, I would be playing phantasy star. 9 was the big saving grace of the series to me. I havent enjoyed a ff game since then. (mainly because I havent played any since x-2 or whatever the sequel was, annoyed me less than an hour into it)



I think the last FF that I really liked was FFX, although I admit that I didn't play FFX-2 after seeing Yuna's costume switch between the games. I disagreed vehemently, although I've heard enough good things about it that I'm tempted to try it anyway. I hated FFVIII for all the reasons you listed (minus the alien fights, since I don't think I got that far), and while FFIX was an improvement the story for FFIX just plain didn't grab me. It didn't help that I was coming off of playing FFX and abortively playing FFVIII back-to-back. FFXII was the series killer for me, I haven't played any of them since. Well, except for going back to FFVI and playing it with pre-determined magic "classes" to make the gameplay more difficult.

[DiscipleofBob]

I think the last FF that I really liked was FFX, although I admit that I didn't play FFX-2 after seeing Yuna's costume switch between the games. I disagreed vehemently, although I've heard enough good things about it that I'm tempted to try it anyway. I hated FFVIII for all the reasons you listed (minus the alien fights, since I don't think I got that far), and while FFIX was an improvement the story for FFIX just plain didn't grab me. It didn't help that I was coming off of playing FFX and abortively playing FFVIII back-to-back. FFXII was the series killer for me, I haven't played any of them since. Well, except for going back to FFVI and playing it with pre-determined magic "classes" to make the gameplay more difficult.

X-2 is worth a try. Behind the surface of some kind of girl power, slumber party, terrible J-pop there actually is a really good game underneath with the single best job system in any game.

If FFX is the perfect entree, FFX-2 is almost the perfect dessert, except for some reason the pink bubblegum Barbie icing.

Just do yourself a favor and use a strategy guide from the very start. The game uses a % completion to determine among other things the ending, and X-2 is VERY unforgiving in terms of missables.

Personally, if I were to rank the FF's, without spin offs or other games like a Tactics, it'd go, from worst to best:

2 - 3 - 5 - 1 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 4 - 6 - X

I don't consider anything made after X to be a "true" Final Fantasy. They're just too far off the mark so far.

[danzibr]

Personally, if I were to rank the FF's, without spin offs or other games like a Tactics, it'd go, from worst to best:

2 - 3 - 5 - 1 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 4 - 6 - X

I don't consider anything made after X to be a "true" Final Fantasy. They're just too far off the mark so far.
Interesting. Well, while we're at it...

3 -- 2 -- 9 -- 5 -- 10-2 -- 13 -- 13-2 -- 8 -- 1 -- 4 -- 6 -- 10 -- LR -- 7

This reflects my preference, of course. I'm not trying to rate them from a mechanical standpoint. I figured I'd throw in all the main series (except MMO's).

[Seerow]

Interesting. Well, while we're at it...

3 -- 2 -- 9 -- 5 -- 10-2 -- 13 -- 13-2 -- 8 -- 1 -- 4 -- 6 -- 10 -- LR -- 7

This reflects my preference, of course. I'm not trying to rate them from a mechanical standpoint. I figured I'd throw in all the main series (except MMO's).

I can understand not liking 7, but seriously below endless hallway 13; ridiculous awkward laughing scene 10, and "We knew each other all along, really!" 8? If you can rate 7 below all of those I'm not sure why you're even interested in talking about a 7 remake.




My ranking would be:
5 > 7 > 6 > 9 > 3 > 4 > 1 > 10 > 12 > 8 > 13

Of the ones I've played. 5, 7, and 6 are all fairly interchangable on that list and will fluctuate depending on my mood. I did miss 2, 10-2, and 13-2 (apparently I just really hate 2s, it's a miracle I hit 12). If including "other" titles I'd rank 11 below 13. 14 I haven't played but I have heard enough good things about that I'd place it above 10 just on the things I have heard. Tactics would go at the top of the pack, Crystal Chronicles between 10 and 12, and tactics advance just above 8.



Anyway, to whoever linked that FF7 let's play earlier, thank you a lot for that. I actually binge read the entire thing over the last couple of days, and it did a wonderful job of reminding me everything I loved about the game. I even got to see a few scenes I had never encountered before (or had seen and completely missed to relevance/importance of) which was really cool.

[Traab]

I didn't like the bad-guys-level-up-with-you mechanic, and the fact that using magic makes you weaker, and the button mashing during GF summoning, and all the teen angst (even though I was like 13 when I played it), but I somehow overall enjoyed it.

That's been around since long before Dragon Quarter, and it doesn't particularly seem that RPGs made a huge shift around then. I didn't like Dragon Quarter at all fwiw.

I can't comment much on the grid battle stuff. When you said that, SO2 was indeed the first to come to mind, and I loved the hell out of that. I guess Lightning Returns has kind of a similar mechanic, but you're really slow.

For me, nowadays, I enjoy genuine random battles and games where you run onto a sprite on the field which sends you to a battle and just straight up fighting baddies on fields (like VII, LR, and XII, respectively).

I know other games had done that before, but it just felt like, with the switch to ps2, a lot more rpg games were going in that direction and I didnt like it. Plus there was ffx and x-2 neither of which I much enjoyed, I was getting older and games were taking a back seat to work and such, that sort of thing. it was honestly a long decline, but thats the game I tend to think of first when I think of rpgs that really started to erode my interest in rpgs.

As for most to least favorite, I have to say, 7,9,6,4,5,2,1,8,x,x-2>>>>>>>>>>tactics.

Sorry, tactics wasnt a final fantasy game to me, it was just such a departure from the standard ff format, that I despised it. I know a lot of people really like the game, but bleh. As for the order I rated them all, honestly, 6,7,9 are kinda fluid on which is my favorite, and after 4 I stop caring about any of the rest. I just have no interest in ff1,2, and 5, but 8 and x/x2 are ones I actively dislike.

[danzibr]

Interesting. Well, while we're at it...

3 -- 2 -- 9 -- 5 -- 10-2 -- 13 -- 13-2 -- 8 -- 1 -- 4 -- 6 -- 10 -- LR -- 7

This reflects my preference, of course. I'm not trying to rate them from a mechanical standpoint. I figured I'd throw in all the main series (except MMO's).
I can understand not liking 7, but seriously below endless hallway 13; ridiculous awkward laughing scene 10, and "We knew each other all along, really!" 8? If you can rate 7 below all of those I'm not sure why you're even interested in talking about a 7 remake.

My ranking would be:
5 > 7 > 6 > 9 > 3 > 4 > 1 > 10 > 12 > 8 > 13

Of the ones I've played. 5, 7, and 6 are all fairly interchangable on that list and will fluctuate depending on my mood. I did miss 2, 10-2, and 13-2 (apparently I just really hate 2s, it's a miracle I hit 12). If including "other" titles I'd rank 11 below 13. 14 I haven't played but I have heard enough good things about that I'd place it above 10 just on the things I have heard. Tactics would go at the top of the pack, Crystal Chronicles between 10 and 12, and tactics advance just above 8.
Huh? It's in increasing order. VII's my favorite.

[Seerow]

Huh? It's in increasing order. VII's my favorite.

In that case it makes a lot more sense. I apparently read the order of both you and Bob backwards. My bad.

[danzibr]

In that case it makes a lot more sense. I apparently read the order of both you and Bob backwards. My bad.
Das coo', das coo'.

But ya know, I had a thought. It would be interesting to get the opinion of someone who despised VII on a remake. Like, someone who played it through at least twice and concluded they hate it.

btw, looking at my list again, I should mention I only really disliked V. All the rest I enjoyed to varying degrees. IX just didn't click with me. I only played remakes of II and III. Et cetera. Maybe I'll make a more detailed list later (like with ='s and <'s).

[Gnoman]

Anyway, to whoever linked that FF7 let's play earlier, thank you a lot for that. I actually binge read the entire thing over the last couple of days, and it did a wonderful job of reminding me everything I loved about the game. I even got to see a few scenes I had never encountered before (or had seen and completely missed to relevance/importance of) which was really cool.

Elentor really put a lot of effort into it. I paid for an SA account just for the LP board (I was following a Might and Magic LP when they pulled their periodic "lock the LP board to non-members thing"), and that LP alone would have been worth it. Did you just read the main one, or did you read the whole thread? Someone else is running a Low Level Game LP along side it, which is kind of neat.

[Seerow]

Elentor really put a lot of effort into it. I paid for an SA account just for the LP board (I was following a Might and Magic LP when they pulled their periodic "lock the LP board to non-members thing"), and that LP alone would have been worth it. Did you just read the main one, or did you read the whole thread? Someone else is running a Low Level Game LP along side it, which is kind of neat.

I only read the main one, and even that took way more hours than I really should have invested into it. The thread as a whole is gigantic, there's no way I could have read that much in just a few days.

I did however read the last few pages since the last update to check what their reactions were to the remake being announced.

[GloatingSwine]

X-2 is worth a try. Behind the surface of some kind of girl power, slumber party, terrible J-pop there actually is a really good game underneath with the single best job system in any game.


X-2 is actually one of the most enjoyable games in the series. It's just cheesy as hell with it.

(I'm hipster and weird, so 4, 5, and 9 are my favourites, as long as I don't get to count Lost Odyssey or Bravely Default).

[Traab]

X-2 is actually one of the most enjoyable games in the series. It's just cheesy as hell with it.

(I'm hipster and weird, so 4, 5, and 9 are my favourites, as long as I don't get to count Lost Odyssey or Bravely Default).

4 and 9 are both really cool, the only thing I have against 5 is, I dislike job classes. I dont have any specific reason, but a part of it is there is often a bit of a grind, and some fights are insanely hard unless one or more of your party has leveled up a specific job class. I dont mind grinding, but I hate being virtually forced to grind. As a random made up example, lets say you have a nice massive melee damage dealing party and have been stomping through the game for multiple levels like that just fine. Suddenly you go to a new dungeon and the mobs are only weak against magic but all your black mage/summoner/blue mage/sage/whatever classes are really weak so in order to move on, you have to go back and grind out multiple levels as black mages to handle the area.

[Rodin]

4 and 9 are both really cool, the only thing I have against 5 is, I dislike job classes. I dont have any specific reason, but a part of it is there is often a bit of a grind, and some fights are insanely hard unless one or more of your party has leveled up a specific job class. I dont mind grinding, but I hate being virtually forced to grind. As a random made up example, lets say you have a nice massive melee damage dealing party and have been stomping through the game for multiple levels like that just fine. Suddenly you go to a new dungeon and the mobs are only weak against magic but all your black mage/summoner/blue mage/sage/whatever classes are really weak so in order to move on, you have to go back and grind out multiple levels as black mages to handle the area.

This is pretty much what got me to quit playing Bravely Default.

[Tono]

To start off my FF rankings Tactics>9>5>8>X-2>X>XII=6>7>4>2>1>3>13 and its sequels. Haven't played LR.

Someone mentioned wanting the thoughts on 7s remake from someone who disliked it(and I have played it multiple times), so heres my thoughts;
I'm totally buying it. Why? Its a fun game, it just did a horrible job of explaining itself. A lot of it is un-intuitive or just plain boring. The game has several bits in it that just scream 'buy the guide!' Hell, one of the most important scenes in the game (which ill spoil it, with the remake coming out even though it is old there may just be a brand new generation looking at the game) WHere Zack breaks out of the experiment with Cloud is entirely miss-able! Several scenes or chunks of story are like that. And making the gold chocobo? That was just down right tedious and the only in game hints you get are from a senile old man who doesn't give you many hints at all. Granted a lot of these were not uncommon. Especially in 8 and 9 as a lot of the areas in those games are just found randomly and I ranked them much higher then 7, but in 7 these things were almost required to get a complete understanding of the game. I really really really like the idea of 7s story, and as I have grown older I have actually become more fond of it, but I think for the most part the game does a horrible job of presenting itself. A remake though? A remake could fix that and make it so much more... not obvious but also streamed line. And cloud getting all dressed up is one of my favorite parts of the game. Can't wait to see that whole side-bit in beautiful 3D. Am not looking forward to any major changes in the script though. There was a certain charm to a good bit of the cast. Specially Yuffie and Cid.

I will admit though, half my hate for 7 comes from the internet at the time of 8 and 9. I mean, people loved it so much I saw arguments on why 10 was horrible because it wasn't 7 before it was out!

[Mewtarthio]

But ya know, I had a thought. It would be interesting to get the opinion of someone who despised VII on a remake. Like, someone who played it through at least twice and concluded they hate it.

I'll wait until we've heard more about the mechanics. I'm willing to put up with an awful story if the gameplay is enjoyable (*cough*Lightning Returns*cough*), so long as it isn't offensively bad. And, just to be clear, FF7 wasn't offensively bad; I think it has a number of decent scenes, it's just that the plot as a whole felt extremely unfocused (and, for a JRPG, that's saying a lot) and some painfully flat secondary characters.

My biggest problem with FF7 was the mechanics (the graphics are pretty terrible, too, but those can be forgiven, and they clearly are being corrected). If they bring back the materia system, I'm pretty much out. I'm technically open to persuasion, but it'll take a really convincing LP or personal friend to get me to reconsider.

My main concern is probably exactly the same thing the fans are worried about: Namely, that it'll turn out to be a cash grab relying solely on pretty graphics and the FF7 name to generate sales.

[Gnoman]

One change I hope they make is turning Yuffie and Vincent into non-optional characters - both had pretty cool concepts that could add a lot to the story, but because you could NOT get them, they couldn't really fulfill their full potential.

[Antonok]

This is worth a read if anyone missed it. (http://www.engadget.com/2015/06/17/final-fantasy-vii-remake-interview-e3-2015/)

I'm particularly worried about this part though

"The comedy or the lighthearted parts -- I like those. I don't want to change it that much. But we can't have these upgraded, beautiful 3D models of Cloud and Barrett, still lining up in a row, jumping forward to attack an enemy, then jumping back to wait for their next turn. That would be bizarre. Of course there will likely be changes there. But if we took away parts like the lighter moments of the game, then it would no longer be FFVII."

[Starwulf]

For me I'd put my rankings as: 6, 4, 1, 8, 7, 12, 10, 5, 3, 2, and never played 9. If we include the mmo's, 11 would place directly behind 4.

[Gnoman]

This is worth a read if anyone missed it. (http://www.engadget.com/2015/06/17/final-fantasy-vii-remake-interview-e3-2015/)

I'm particularly worried about this part though

"The comedy or the lighthearted parts -- I like those. I don't want to change it that much. But we can't have these upgraded, beautiful 3D models of Cloud and Barrett, still lining up in a row, jumping forward to attack an enemy, then jumping back to wait for their next turn. That would be bizarre. Of course there will likely be changes there. But if we took away parts like the lighter moments of the game, then it would no longer be FFVII."

I'm concerned about it, but I don't take that as a sign of drastic changes - it could very easily mean that they want to make the animations better at the flow of the fight more fluid - compare VII's fights to X-2's, for example. Particularly in the context of this (http://kotaku.com/the-final-fantasy-vii-remake-wont-be-exactly-the-same-1711909183) story, which includes a statement attributed to Nomura


“The original version is a game that came out in 1997, and if you look at it today, you can feel how dated the graphics and the game system are,” Nomura told Famitsu. “However, that’s also part of Final Fantasy VII.” Nomura added that even today, the game continues to get support and that is unlikely to change.

However, it sounds like like the remake will feature evolved gameplay. Again, here’s Nomura:

“We haven’t shown any gameplay yet, but since we’re updating them quite a bit, please look forward to that,” Nomura told Dengeki Online. (Note: The word Nomura used, 進化 or “shinka,” can also mean “evolution” or “progress.” He didn’t say 変化 or “henka,” which means “change” or “variation.”)

For a title like this, even if you only redo the graphics, I don’t think you get something that’s exciting.”

This sounds like the result will be an evolved ATB system rather than a drastic change. This could be good or bad.

EDIT: Checking Amazon, the PC version of FFVII is ranked at #1,646 in all video games, #60 in Digital PC Downloads, and #92 in All PC Games. XIII is #10,808/#676/#1358, and XIII-2 is #12,477/#824/#1710 in the same categories. I don't know where to look for PSN sales to compare that to the console versions, but such a massive popularity difference has to make a strong impression, and I don't thing Squeenix is stupid enough to bet the farm by making two games in their flagship series drastically different from what came before - most likely that's why they're doing the remake now - it's a good fallback if XV flops.

[Antonok]

A bit on the reason why the remake is coming now. Along with Sony's hope of boosting PS4 sales (http://www.vg247.com/2015/06/18/final-fantasy-remake-ffvii-ps4-install-base/), and Yoichi Wada (guy who refused to do the remake) stepping down, the original developers are getting old (http://www.vg247.com/2015/06/19/square-enix-made-the-final-fantasy-7-remake-because-the-developers-are-hitting-that-age/).


“And there’s one more thing,” he added. “we’re hitting that age.”

“Of all the staff that worked on the original Final Fantasy VII, and those who are working on the remake, I’m the youngest one. I’m 45 years old now. If we continued on without doing a remake, [Yoshinori] Kitase and [Kazushige] Nojima are well older than me… so, yeah,” he said, laughing.

“With this timing and opportunity in mind, we decided to just got for it.

Nomura also had this to say, which still doesn't help the uneasyness:


“I think if it came down to that, then there’d be no reason in doing a remake, and while it may be difficult, we’re already prepared to doing it right if we’re going to do it at all. I’m sure some of you may feel uneasy about this, but one thing I can say, is that it won’t be boring, and we’d like you to wait and look forward to what it will turn out to be.”

[danzibr]

To start off my FF rankings Tactics>9>5>8>X-2>X>XII=6>7>4>2>1>3>13 and its sequels. Haven't played LR.

Someone mentioned wanting the thoughts on 7s remake from someone who disliked it(and I have played it multiple times), so heres my thoughts;
I'm totally buying it. Why? Its a fun game, it just did a horrible job of explaining itself. A lot of it is un-intuitive or just plain boring. The game has several bits in it that just scream 'buy the guide!' Hell, one of the most important scenes in the game (which ill spoil it, with the remake coming out even though it is old there may just be a brand new generation looking at the game) WHere Zack breaks out of the experiment with Cloud is entirely miss-able! Several scenes or chunks of story are like that. And making the gold chocobo? That was just down right tedious and the only in game hints you get are from a senile old man who doesn't give you many hints at all. Granted a lot of these were not uncommon. Especially in 8 and 9 as a lot of the areas in those games are just found randomly and I ranked them much higher then 7, but in 7 these things were almost required to get a complete understanding of the game. I really really really like the idea of 7s story, and as I have grown older I have actually become more fond of it, but I think for the most part the game does a horrible job of presenting itself. A remake though? A remake could fix that and make it so much more... not obvious but also streamed line. And cloud getting all dressed up is one of my favorite parts of the game. Can't wait to see that whole side-bit in beautiful 3D. Am not looking forward to any major changes in the script though. There was a certain charm to a good bit of the cast. Specially Yuffie and Cid.

I will admit though, half my hate for 7 comes from the internet at the time of 8 and 9. I mean, people loved it so much I saw arguments on why 10 was horrible because it wasn't 7 before it was out!
That's interesting. I first played VII when I was young and not very good at games, and never had such qualms. Interesting indeed.

I'll wait until we've heard more about the mechanics. I'm willing to put up with an awful story if the gameplay is enjoyable (*cough*Lightning Returns*cough*)
Ha. I feel the same way about LR. It was just so *fun*.

One change I hope they make is turning Yuffie and Vincent into non-optional characters - both had pretty cool concepts that could add a lot to the story, but because you could NOT get them, they couldn't really fulfill their full potential.
That'd be a nice change.

"The comedy or the lighthearted parts -- I like those. I don't want to change it that much. But we can't have these upgraded, beautiful 3D models of Cloud and Barrett, still lining up in a row, jumping forward to attack an enemy, then jumping back to wait for their next turn. That would be bizarre. Of course there will likely be changes there. But if we took away parts like the lighter moments of the game, then it would no longer be FFVII."

This sounds like the result will be an evolved ATB system rather than a drastic change. This could be good or bad.
That's what it sounds like to me. I mean, there are lots of ways to do ATB. I found LR incredibly fun and it's totally ATB. Or... they could have it be just like VII but with more action; that is, the changes they're talking about could be *primarily* visual.

Also, while I do like ARPG's, someone brought up a good point in another forum. In several ARPG's I find myself just mashing attack and directing myself toward the baddies. I hear the 2.0 XV demo has an awesome system, though. Like, options and strategy in an ARPG.

[DiscipleofBob]

One change I hope they make is turning Yuffie and Vincent into non-optional characters - both had pretty cool concepts that could add a lot to the story, but because you could NOT get them, they couldn't really fulfill their full potential.

They could always just include Dirge of Cerberus as part of the main game.

[danzibr]

They could always just include Dirge of Cerberus as part of the main game.
Now we're talkin'! After you beat the main part of the game it switches to a FPS.

Edit: They could do so much with Vincent...

[Hunter Noventa]

That's what it sounds like to me. I mean, there are lots of ways to do ATB. I found LR incredibly fun and it's totally ATB. Or... they could have it be just like VII but with more action; that is, the changes they're talking about could be *primarily* visual.

I'm wondering if they might make a bit like X-2. I didn't care much for the game, but it a pretty tight and entertaining battle system, though not my favorite (that would be X, when it comes to mainline games)

[Rodin]

I'm wondering if they might make a bit like X-2. I didn't care much for the game, but it a pretty tight and entertaining battle system, though not my favorite (that would be X, when it comes to mainline games)

The only thing I really didn't like about X's battle system was the requirement that everyone had to participate to get XP. In theory it was a neat idea (and the ability to rotate party members in and out actually did work well), but for every random battle it turned into this weird game of musical chairs where you bring in Yuna and Lulu to bop the enemy with their weapons just so they got experience without killing the enemy.

[danzibr]

The only thing I really didn't like about X's battle system was the requirement that everyone had to participate to get XP. In theory it was a neat idea (and the ability to rotate party members in and out actually did work well), but for every random battle it turned into this weird game of musical chairs where you bring in Yuna and Lulu to bop the enemy with their weapons just so they got experience without killing the enemy.
For me it was bringing in Wakka and Kimari.

Now I want to play X...

[Starwulf]

I've always wondered, am I the only person who enjoyed the Blitzball minigame in X? Out of everyone I know in RL that has played X(a few dozen), NONE of them enjoyed the Blitz Ball game ><

[Antonok]

I've always wondered, am I the only person who enjoyed the Blitzball minigame in X? Out of everyone I know in RL that has played X(a few dozen), NONE of them enjoyed the Blitz Ball game ><

No, me and my rl friends liked blitzball. Couldn't stand it in X-2 though, or having to play 50000000000 matches to get Wakka's thing for his final weapon.

[lord_khaine]

I'm particularly worried about this part though

Yeah, i do think thats really worrying as well, it is kinda like they have completely missed that a large segment of their older fans dislike the new high-paced "lets smack random buttons gameplay.."


The only thing I really didn't like about X's battle system was the requirement that everyone had to participate to get XP. In theory it was a neat idea (and the ability to rotate party members in and out actually did work well), but for every random battle it turned into this weird game of musical chairs where you bring in Yuna and Lulu to bop the enemy with their weapons just so they got experience without killing the enemy.

I completely agree! though at the same time, back then it was a huge relief, as compared to having to change your party members around on regular intevals to make sure everyone stayed in the same level range.


I've always wondered, am I the only person who enjoyed the Blitzball minigame in X? Out of everyone I know in RL that has played X(a few dozen), NONE of them enjoyed the Blitz Ball game ><

I do think it was a great minigame as well, both playing it and working on building the strongest team.

[Eldariel]

Honestly, I think the experience gain was done in an excellent manner in Chrono Trigger (characters in the End of Time receive 75% of the experience with few limitations about not multileveling from single encounters). I have never really been fond of games where you have huge casts and have to equally use all of them to keep them all useful. Essentially this means you'll have to pick whom you wish to use late very early into the game, or just go through a huge amount of hassle to level everyone. Or then you have games like FF8 where your level doesn't really matter, of course. But why even have levels in a system like that?

[danzibr]

I've always wondered, am I the only person who enjoyed the Blitzball minigame in X? Out of everyone I know in RL that has played X(a few dozen), NONE of them enjoyed the Blitz Ball game ><

No, me and my rl friends liked blitzball. Couldn't stand it in X-2 though, or having to play 50000000000 matches to get Wakka's thing for his final weapon.
Blitzball is one of my favorite mini-games in any game ever, right up there with Triple Triad and Chocobo breeding/racing. My first playthrough (I only did 2, the first a bit under 100 hours, the second a bit over iirc) I got a late start on it, the second I started the second I could.

Like Antonok's, I thought the X-2's Blitzball was garbage. I still played it, but only out of "necessity."

Honestly, I think the experience gain was done in an excellent manner in Chrono Trigger (characters in the End of Time receive 75% of the experience with few limitations about not multileveling from single encounters). I have never really been fond of games where you have huge casts and have to equally use all of them to keep them all useful. Essentially this means you'll have to pick whom you wish to use late very early into the game, or just go through a huge amount of hassle to level everyone. Or then you have games like FF8 where your level doesn't really matter, of course. But why even have levels in a system like that?
I actually like the ability to leave some players in the dust, like FFVIII and not FFVII.

Like Eldariel I dislike the whole baddies-level-up-with-you mechanic. Hated it in FFT. In fact, in Tactics the random encounters level up with you but not the story battles, so if you spend a little bit of time grinding at the beginning the entire game becomes laughably easy (except the random encounters :/ ).

[lord_khaine]

Or then you have games like FF8 where your level doesn't really matter, of course. But why even have levels in a system like that?

Yeah.. i honestly think this deserves a spot under the top 10 worst decisions in game designing, ever..

I mean.. its bad enough that such a system suddenly removes the fun of leveling, but whats worse, in FF8 the design is actually such that your better off not leveling at all!

[Gnoman]

Yeah.. i honestly think this deserves a spot under the top 10 worst decisions in game designing, ever..

I mean.. its bad enough that such a system suddenly removes the fun of leveling, but whats worse, in FF8 the design is actually such that your better off not leveling at all!

Not so - you got much better item drops as your level went up, because monster level determined what was available to drop. The better spells that you got from the better drops improved your stats enough to greatly outweigh the stronger monsters.

[Infernally Clay]

This is worth a read if anyone missed it. (http://www.engadget.com/2015/06/17/final-fantasy-vii-remake-interview-e3-2015/)

I'm particularly worried about this part though

"The comedy or the lighthearted parts -- I like those. I don't want to change it that much. But we can't have these upgraded, beautiful 3D models of Cloud and Barrett, still lining up in a row, jumping forward to attack an enemy, then jumping back to wait for their next turn. That would be bizarre. Of course there will likely be changes there. But if we took away parts like the lighter moments of the game, then it would no longer be FFVII."

As long as they keep the ATB, I don't mind what they do to spice up the combat. If we can move around during combat or if characters dynamically change position as they use attacks and are attacked, that's fine by me.

[Eldariel]

Not so - you got much better item drops as your level went up, because monster level determined what was available to drop. The better spells that you got from the better drops improved your stats enough to greatly outweigh the stronger monsters.

Well, that was the theory but between GF refining abilities, the Level Up-ability and Island Closest to Heaven/Hell, it wasn't all that hard to stack up on all the best stuff without leveling.

[danzibr]

As long as they keep the ATB, I don't mind what they do to spice up the combat. If we can move around during combat or if characters dynamically change position as they use attacks and are attacked, that's fine by me.
Ya know, this made me think of LR combat. Which got me thinking that LR is one of my favorite FF games (I appear to be in a minority here, but whatever). Then I got to thinking that maybe VII-R would be lost of fun with a LR-type system, which really got me to thinking of this.

In LR you can slowly walk around. This makes dodging certain attacks possible. Sounds awesome for VII-R.
In LR you have 3 outfits, each with its own... charge, I'll call it. Then certain moves take up so much charge. Could easily work with 3 characters rather than 3 outfits for VII-R. Sounds awesome.
In LR you have perfect attacks and perfect blocks. Could easily be carried over. Sounds awesome.
In LR you have *very* limited items. Like, only a few different kinds, and each with very a low capacity. Bummer.

So then I got to thinking... other than items what problems would we have?

Limit Breaks? Those could be done just as in VII.

Summons? I guess those could be done the same. But wait, in LR there's no mp...

And you get all those different commands. I guess you have stuff like that in LR, equipment changing commands to other commands. Oh right, in LR you equip abilities. Man, that could work really well with materia.

I guess a huge different in gameplay is that in VII you have *tons* of options available to you. Master Magic, Master Command, Master Summon, Enemy Skill, and good ol' items. You could do freakin' anything. That's just not possible for an ARPG (though LR is an RPG with ATB sort of feeling like an ARPG), at least not that I've seen.

[007_ctrl_room]

I loved the original, so don't get me wrong, but I'm not sure if I'll even pick this one up.

[Traab]

As far as minigames go, chocobo breeding was annoying as heck. Not so much the breeding, as having to grind them up in levels at the racetrack so you could produce the unique color you wanted then level THAT ONE to max in racing so you could breed it some more, etc etc etc. Also, I think it took me like, three play throughs before I even bothered to look into getting the gold chocobo, knights of the round is so overpowered its freaking silly, You might as well get an auto skip to the final cinematic upon equipping it.

Anyways, other minigames. I didnt like blitzball. I want to say its because I screwed up and didnt have the directions handy for how to play it right, but its been so long I just remember not liking it very much. Triple triad. Im counting the card game for 8 and 9 in this. I liked the game, it was interesting, and I liked how in 9 especially there were all these super secret special cards you could win off an opponent if you beat them. It made for an interesting hunt across the world. What i didnt like was having to save before every card game because at any point you could mess up or get stomped and lose one of those awesome cards forever. It was just too high risk of a game for me to really enjoy much because of that. It would be like if, while chocobo racing, your black chocobo or whatever could trip and break its neck mid race at random making you have to start over again from scratch.

[Antonok]

snip

Triple Triad I didn't care much for, because everytime I asked anyone where to find/how to get the answer was 'Just play cards then convert them!' Every. Single. *******. Time. It soured it to the point I refused to play it at all.

Tetra Master was fun though, it didn't have anything like that as I recall so it was just something to mess around with for the heck of it.

[Surrealistik]

Would rather see an FF6 remake, but I'll definitely settle for this.

[Gnoman]

Anyways, other minigames. I didnt like blitzball. I want to say its because I screwed up and didnt have the directions handy for how to play it right, but its been so long I just remember not liking it very much. Triple triad. Im counting the card game for 8 and 9 in this. I liked the game, it was interesting, and I liked how in 9 especially there were all these super secret special cards you could win off an opponent if you beat them. It made for an interesting hunt across the world. What i didnt like was having to save before every card game because at any point you could mess up or get stomped and lose one of those awesome cards forever. It was just too high risk of a game for me to really enjoy much because of that. It would be like if, while chocobo racing, your black chocobo or whatever could trip and break its neck mid race at random making you have to start over again from scratch.

Tetra Master (FFIX's minigame) was garbage, but in FF8, at least, not only could you get back any card you lost even without svaqvat gur Entanebx ba Qvfp Sbhe, losing cards was required if you wanted every rare card.

[Eldariel]

Triple Triad was the best minigame in the entire series and the best part of FF8 IMHO. If only the other minigames were of that quality...

[danzibr]

Triple Triad was the best minigame in the entire series and the best part of FF8 IMHO. If only the other minigames were of that quality...
I agree Triple Triad was the best, but I enjoyed others. I forgot to mention earlier, in addition to Blitzball and Chocobo stuff, I like the motorcycle game in VII.

And I just realized what I want most out of a remake. More end-game content. So you grinded Magic Pots and Movers for 10 hours to get absurd materia combos going and can flatten Emerald in 5 minutes. Then what? Pretty much nothing.

The Star Ocean series has great end-game content.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Would rather see an FF6 remake, but I'll definitely settle for this.

Lets see how badly they screw this up before we get an FF6 remake, if they turn this into the cruddy Single Player MMO they have been stuffing down our throats since 12 then screw it I will enjoy my GBA Rom version these days, as much fun as I am having with the plot of Xenoblade the fact that the battle system is a glorified MMO makes me want to Hurl the game out the window sometimes.

And Xenoblade does it mostly right, I am just tired of that system being used on almost every RPG with a party in the past generation or so.

[Seerow]

As far as minigames go, chocobo breeding was annoying as heck. Not so much the breeding, as having to grind them up in levels at the racetrack so you could produce the unique color you wanted then level THAT ONE to max in racing so you could breed it some more, etc etc etc.

For what it's worth, this was not actually a necessary step. Fun things I learned while reading through that let's play:

1) When breeding chocobos who have no experience at the tracks at all, they still have a chance of breeding the new color. And what determines time before the chocobos can breed again is how many battles you're involved in. So if you want you can breed, and if it fails, run out, kill 4-5 random encounters, run back and try again.

2) The chocobos don't actually need to reach a given rank, but the number of wins the parents have combined increases the chance of breeding a better chocobo. For example, to get a green or blue chocobo, it takes a combined 4 race wins between both parents to max out your success rate. So if you take one parent and race 4 times, you can come back and be guaranteed to get your next stage of chocobo. I think the higher the level the more races that need to be won, but you can always get it done with a single parent racing and the numbers seem to be much lower than most people actually did because they didn't know better.



edit: Also I totally agree with wanting more end-game content. Ultimate Weapon should be tougher than Ruby or Emerald weapons, and more optional bosses beyond them would be pretty awesome. Having enemies that actually require some of the more obscure/interesting materia combos would be really nice.

[Psyren]

I honestly don't get the super appeal of the final fantasy series... Especially the fanaticism over 7...
The gameplay of most of them has always seemed off to me(other than the mmos and 12), and everything I've heard about 7 makes it sound... Kinda bland, especially the setting.
I mean, if they change the combat to be fully turn based to fully action, I might check it out. But the weird final fantasy mix isn't my kind of thing.

This. The menu-based combat and intense grindiness were perfectly fine back when the game first came out. We were willing to grind for golden chocobo, grind materia and grind ruby and emerald, because we were all (or at least most) a lot younger and didn't have kids, spouses, jobs and adult responsibilities.

Now we do, and what's more, we've ground ourselves to death on at least one MMO apiece by now. And current technology has moved far beyond menu-based combat. Bringing all that back to me makes no sense, even with a fresh coat of paint. Hopefully they don't do that.

[Rodin]

This. The menu-based combat and intense grindiness were perfectly fine back when the game first came out. We were willing to grind for golden chocobo, grind materia and grind ruby and emerald, because we were all (or at least most) a lot younger and didn't have kids, spouses, jobs and adult responsibilities.

Now we do, and what's more, we've ground ourselves to death on at least one MMO apiece by now. And current technology has moved far beyond menu-based combat. Bringing all that back to me makes no sense, even with a fresh coat of paint. Hopefully they don't do that.

Trouble is, you have to deal with nostalgia here. There would be outrage from most people who grew up on FF7 if they didn't have turn-based combat, and I think it would be justified. Refine it and add new features, sure, but I think moving to a system similar to FF12 would bring accusations of desecration.

There's also the fact that the people most likely to go back and play the old FF games are those least likely to have been playing the new ones. If they move to a fully active battle system, I probably won't bother to pick it up. I hated FF12 so much that I haven't bought a game in the series since. I don't even consider 12 to be in the same genre.

However, I would not object to them reducing the grindiness. Just adjust the experience gain and mini-games to make them easier to progress through. Chocobo breeding has never sounded appealing and I don't particularly intend to take part in it if it's basically similar to how it was in the original. The new bonus bossses in VI's remake didn't appeal to me either, since it added heavy grinding to a game that was basically grind-free.

[Traab]

edit: Also I totally agree with wanting more end-game content. Ultimate Weapon should be tougher than Ruby or Emerald weapons, and more optional bosses beyond them would be pretty awesome. Having enemies that actually require some of the more obscure/interesting materia combos would be really nice.

This I am not in favor of. I never really liked the idea of required specific setups to win. I never actually killed either emerald or ruby weapon. What I think should have happened instead was, the various Weapons are the attempts of the earth to protect itself from threats right? I think it would have been interesting to have multiple Weapons show up in various hot spots, like the one that attacked midgar you had to delay or the one that attacked junon harbor. Only this time its more about you helping to fight it. There could have been a whole host of interesting combat setups involving the background npcs and such. Instead you get emerald weapon randomly wandering the ocean floor, and ruby weapon just hanging out buried in the freaking desert. I understand why they didnt go after sephiroth, but I wish they had run around doing something. Maybe even have the fights have a real effect on the story. Say you have to protect Wutai from an incoming weapon. If you succeed in defeating/chasing it off, then you can get extra stuff from merchants. If you fail, the town is destroyed and you lose the chance to buy that stuff.

Meh, probably a bit overambitious for ff7 considering that as it was it took 4 freaking discs to play it all. But something interesting to consider for the reboot.

[Antonok]

stuff

Nitpick: 7 was 3 discs. 8 and 9 were 4. And the 3rd disc for 7 didn't have all that much on it.

That would of been nice to have, but consider the era it came out, and production time it took. As it was, they had to cut a lot of stuff out (toy soldiers anyone?)

Now I'm all for them doing this in the remake. There is sooooo much more leeway on what they can do/add in now as opposed to what they could do back then.

[Psyren]

Trouble is, you have to deal with nostalgia here. There would be outrage from most people who grew up on FF7 if they didn't have turn-based combat, and I think it would be justified. Refine it and add new features, sure, but I think moving to a system similar to FF12 would bring accusations of desecration.

There's also the fact that the people most likely to go back and play the old FF games are those least likely to have been playing the new ones. If they move to a fully active battle system, I probably won't bother to pick it up. I hated FF12 so much that I haven't bought a game in the series since. I don't even consider 12 to be in the same genre.

I'm one of those folks you mentioned, who grew up on FF1-7, and I am completely over menu-based combat. I recognize there are some folks out there who actually consider it to be a plus and are expecting it here, but considering how few games outside the mobile/browser space currently employ this system, I'm not as convinced as you are that those folks are in the majority anymore. Hell, plenty of FF aficionados made the transition to Kingdom Hearts pretty seamlessly, and Dissidia also got plenty of FF fans to make the jump; that data clearly didn't go unnoticed by Square, if FFXV is any indication.



However, I would not object to them reducing the grindiness. Just adjust the experience gain and mini-games to make them easier to progress through. Chocobo breeding has never sounded appealing and I don't particularly intend to take part in it if it's basically similar to how it was in the original. The new bonus bossses in VI's remake didn't appeal to me either, since it added heavy grinding to a game that was basically grind-free.

I totally agree - there is no need to artificially pad game length with esper/XP grinds the way they did in the SNES days. Hopefully none of that design philosophy comes back.

[Seerow]

This. The menu-based combat and intense grindiness were perfectly fine back when the game first came out. We were willing to grind for golden chocobo, grind materia and grind ruby and emerald, because we were all (or at least most) a lot younger and didn't have kids, spouses, jobs and adult responsibilities.

Now we do, and what's more, we've ground ourselves to death on at least one MMO apiece by now. And current technology has moved far beyond menu-based combat. Bringing all that back to me makes no sense, even with a fresh coat of paint. Hopefully they don't do that.

Like Rodin said, reducing grindiness and making combat resolve faster would be fine... but trying to change the core combat system away from turn based or from using menus would be a really bad idea. Maybe have some sort of more active combat as an optional feature, but the game should stick to its origins, we do not need FF7 the Action RPG; and I'd wager there's a large number of fans of the original game that would avoid it like the plague if they tried to change that.


This I am not in favor of. I never really liked the idea of required specific setups to win.

I'm not saying necessarily requiring specific setups, I'm thinking more along the lines of the bosses shutting down a few of the more obvious/broken combos (ie screwing up counter, mime, and KotR) and having an interesting gimick or two to work with plus general high difficulty. Not saying you need to have this exact materia combination to win, but making it so you have to think outside of the typical "I-Win" buttons and have a real use for some of the other options in the game.

Because FF7's materia has a huge amount of depth and a ton of breadth in options, but almost all of it gets overlooked because of a combination of poor balance and easy enemies. Adding a few optional endgame bosses for the players who really like that customization to stretch out a bit and try out different combinations would be a great thing.

I'd also be okay with instead getting a new game+ where you keep all of your materia and enemy difficulty overall is ramped up to ridiculous levels.


I never actually killed either emerald or ruby weapon.

The honestly, you're probably not the target audience for any sort of end game content, since you didn't do the optional end-game content that was already in the original. And that's fine, not everyone's going to do it. But having the option there makes the game better as a whole, even if not everyone will love it.



What I think should have happened instead was, the various Weapons are the attempts of the earth to protect itself from threats right? I think it would have been interesting to have multiple Weapons show up in various hot spots, like the one that attacked midgar you had to delay or the one that attacked junon harbor. Only this time its more about you helping to fight it. There could have been a whole host of interesting combat setups involving the background npcs and such. Instead you get emerald weapon randomly wandering the ocean floor, and ruby weapon just hanging out buried in the freaking desert. I understand why they didnt go after sephiroth, but I wish they had run around doing something. Maybe even have the fights have a real effect on the story. Say you have to protect Wutai from an incoming weapon. If you succeed in defeating/chasing it off, then you can get extra stuff from merchants. If you fail, the town is destroyed and you lose the chance to buy that stuff.

That's basically what was done with Ultimate Weapon and Sapphire Weapon. Ruby and Emerald just sat around because they were late additions to the game made primarily for endgame content, not necessarily a part of the story (They didn't even show up in the original japanese release). That's also why they were so much harder than the other two weapons that were in from the start.

That said, I personally don't understand the story reason for why they didn't go after Sephiroth. Like I get why at first, since the shield was up. But after return to Midgar and the big cannon shattering that barrier? All of the other weapons should have gone on a beeline to it like a dog after a squirrel. I mean they woke up in response to Sephiroth getting his hands on the Black Materia. If they had woken up earlier in response to mako reactors, I'd understand them piddling around with human towns... but that was never their main concern at all. They woke up as a direct response to Sephiroth/Jenova, and taking them down should have been priority one. I am not entirely sure what logical reason there is for that not happening. (gameplay-wise I understand you want the Heroes to be the ones to take out the big boss, and you also want the heroes to have a reason to go after the Weapons so having them rampaging through the world encourages that. But as far as the story goes, it makes no sense)

And Towns without even a Mako Reactor, like Wutai and the small hippie village where Cloud washes up in Disc 2, should never really be under any threat from the Weapons even if they are reacting to humans killing the planet. Those settlements without reactors aren't doing any sort of harm, and are possibly even actively helping.

[Psyren]

Like Rodin said, reducing grindiness and making combat resolve faster would be fine... but trying to change the core combat system away from turn based or from using menus would be a really bad idea. Maybe have some sort of more active combat as an optional feature, but the game should stick to its origins, we do not need FF7 the Action RPG; and I'd wager there's a large number of fans of the original game that would avoid it like the plague if they tried to change that.

I think it should be the other way around - make menu combat the optional extra, but design around something inherently more engaging than "Fight" and "Item."



The honestly, you're probably not the target audience for any sort of end game content, since you didn't do the optional end-game content that was already in the original. And that's fine, not everyone's going to do it. But having the option there makes the game better as a whole, even if not everyone will love it.

Thing is, I had no problem grinding the end-game content the first time around - back then, I was at an age where I did have to make my games last until I had enough allowance to get more, or my birthday/x-mas rolled around again. I was the guy who grinded in Mario RPG until I could beat Culex, and the guy who powerleveled in Chrono Trigger so that I could beat Lavos at any point in time and see all the endings (not to mention beating Spekkio without cheating.)

I reject the assumption that not wanting to grind Ruby and Emerald again means I was averse to that content originally. But as much as nostalgia is driving this remake, a good remake recognizes the changes in its core demographic and updates its design accordingly. And a large part of the reason why I would hate grinding Emerald and Ruby today is that doing so under the current system would involve a whole lot of clicking "Fight" "Magic" and "Limit" before getting to watch the same lengthy cutscenes over and over for my trouble.

[danzibr]

Also I totally agree with wanting more end-game content. Ultimate Weapon should be tougher than Ruby or Emerald weapons, and more optional bosses beyond them would be pretty awesome. Having enemies that actually require some of the more obscure/interesting materia combos would be really nice.
You brought up materia combos!

So I've been digging up all I can on materia combos lately. All mundane, all stuff I already know. Nothing new and interesting was discovered in the past 10 years or so. What I'm getting at is I'd like to see, as you put it, obscure/interesting materia combos.
For example, in Breath of Fire III, there are certain dragon genes you can combine which give unexpected results. Miracle + Thorn + Reverse gives a tiny golden dragon with super high defense and abysmal hp. That's just one example of many (from BoFIII).
Also, I wholeheartedly disagree with Traab. In many games the same strategy (or, well, similar at least) works on *any* boss. Just dps 'em down. Maybe with some elemental resistances or susceptibilities. Maybe you have to time your attacks. But they're bland.

Come across a boss totally immune to physical, or magical, or susceptible to only rotating elements? That'd require a specific setup and would be very refreshing for me. It'd be nice to have some warning though; just having to figure them out cold turkey would be quite frustrating.

EDIT: Why the hell did I write /sample?

Also, I had a wild thought of fighting a weapon on meteor.

[Seerow]

I think it should be the other way around - make menu combat the optional extra, but design around something inherently more engaging than "Fight" and "Item."

I think the main issue is with how many different commands Materia can give, a menu is almost necessary. Something faster paced using shortcuts for a few specific commands (a la kingdom hearts) for people who don't want to bother with that is one thing... but making that the default would likely mean redesigning a ton of the original materia to fit the new system, which would be a very disappointing thing.

And seriously there's a ton they could do to speed up combat without making the leap to full ARPG. Just making it pure turn based instead of having to wait on the ATB bar to fill and cutting down animation times could cut fights to a fraction of their speed. The interview specifically called out it being weird to have the characters jump forward, attack, and jump back. Well what if after attacking they specifically stayed up engaged directly in melee cutting out the back and forth animation? I don't see a need to have every random encounter take 60s+, but losing the breadth and depth of available commands for a ARPG set up would take a lot of what makes the game fun away to me.



Thing is, I had no problem grinding the end-game content the first time around - back then, I was at an age where I did have to make my games last until I had enough allowance to get more, or my birthday/x-mas rolled around again. I was the guy who grinded in Mario RPG until I could beat Culex, and the guy who powerleveled in Chrono Trigger so that I could beat Lavos at any point in time and see all the endings (not to mention beating Spekkio without cheating.)

First, I want to apologize for misleading. My previous post didn't indicate when I switched to quoting someone else, but I was responding to Traab who said he never beat Ruby/Emerald the first time around. In fact everything in my post except the first paragraph or so was directed towards Traab's post. I wasn't commenting on your own willingness to deal with that sort of content, and if you had commented on it at all before this, I didn't even notice it.


I reject the assumption that not wanting to grind Ruby and Emerald again means I was averse to that content originally. But as much as nostalgia is driving this remake, a good remake recognizes the changes in its core demographic and updates its design accordingly. And a large part of the reason why I would hate grinding Emerald and Ruby today is that doing so under the current system would involve a whole lot of clicking "Fight" "Magic" and "Limit" before getting to watch the same lengthy cutscenes over and over for my trouble.

Funny thing about optional content: If you don't want to grind to go through it again? You don't have to. Like if all you want is to play through and re-experience the story with updated graphics you can do that and never have to grind or touch optional content. Like I'm not sure why there is resistance to the idea of providing content that provides more of a challenge for players who want to test themselves using the best stuff available.

Also do note that I am not necessarily saying you should have to grind for hundreds of hours to do these things. I've noted on several occasions on this thread that I'd be happy to see the overall grind to max out materia be reduced. I actually think it would be ideal if you could see some of the cooler materia setups from just normal gameplay. I am not so concerned about bosses that you have to grind for 20 hours to have a chance of winning against as I am about having bosses that even with the best stuff in the game available require some strategy and planning to take on successfully.

[Rakaydos]

You brought up materia combos!

So I've been digging up all I can on materia combos lately. All mundane, all stuff I already know. Nothing new and interesting was discovered in the past 10 years or so. What I'm getting at is I'd like to see, as you put it, obscure/interesting materia combos.
For example, in Breath of Fire III, there are certain dragon genes you can combine which give unexpected results. Miracle + Thorn + Reverse gives a tiny golden dragon with super high defense and abysmal hp. That's just one example of many (from BoFIII).
Also, I wholeheartedly disagree with Traab. In many games the same strategy (or, well, similar at least) works on *any* boss. Just dps 'em down. Maybe with some elemental resistances or susceptibilities. Maybe you have to time your attacks. But they're bland.

Come across a boss totally immune to physical, or magical, or susceptible to only rotating elements? That'd require a specific setup and would be very refreshing for me. It'd be nice to have some warning though; just having to figure them out cold turkey would be quite frustrating.

EDIT: Why the hell did I write /sample?

Also, I had a wild thought of fighting a weapon on meteor.

FF10 had great boss design in that regard- the bosses were designed to use the obscure "win" combos like zombie+cure

Something you might do if you can mod it, is make elemental weakness be something like a x5 damage instead of a minor bonus.

[ryuplaneswalker]

However, I would not object to them reducing the grindiness. Just adjust the experience gain and mini-games to make them easier to progress through. Chocobo breeding has never sounded appealing and I don't particularly intend to take part in it if it's basically similar to how it was in the original. The new bonus bossses in VI's remake didn't appeal to me either, since it added heavy grinding to a game that was basically grind-free.

Haha, the new bonus bosses in VI were pushovers if you remotely knew what you were doing, which if you are going into the "Post Final Boss Dungeon" content you should be. I think half of them could be taken out by a level 1 party with the proper magics.

as for Grindiness in FFVII, the only part that was grindy was Getting the Gold Chocobo, though Honestly...if you wanna take forever to kill them, you can kill both the uber bosses with cloud all on his own by abusing the way Master Yellow Materia combines with with HP absorb, combine Counter-Mime and an HP plus and you should be able to recover enough HP with your normal and mimed 4X attacks.

[Rodin]

Haha, the new bonus bosses in VI were pushovers if you remotely knew what you were doing, which if you are going into the "Post Final Boss Dungeon" content you should be. I think half of them could be taken out by a level 1 party with the proper magics.


Well, I was running a self-enforced class system that screwed up not only my Magic but also my stats (since stats are determined by Espers). Gimped doesn't even begin to describe it, although it was an excellent way to play through the game and made Kefka into a nightmareishly tough fight. I got to those dragons, went NOPENOPENOPENOPE and just didn't worry about it. :P

I think what really cured me of wanting to do bonus bosses in FF games was FFX's monster arena. I think the one I finally couldn't beat was that damn snail that healed for 150K per round, because I simply didn't have enough people that could break the damage limit thanks to how difficult getting the ultimate weapons was. I came in second multiple Blitzball seasons in a row, got halfway through the lightning dodging before cramping up...etc. etc.

[Psyren]

First, I want to apologize for misleading. My previous post didn't indicate when I switched to quoting someone else, but I was responding to Traab who said he never beat Ruby/Emerald the first time around. In fact everything in my post except the first paragraph or so was directed towards Traab's post. I wasn't commenting on your own willingness to deal with that sort of content, and if you had commented on it at all before this, I didn't even notice it.

Funny thing about optional content: If you don't want to grind to go through it again? You don't have to. Like if all you want is to play through and re-experience the story with updated graphics you can do that and never have to grind or touch optional content. Like I'm not sure why there is resistance to the idea of providing content that provides more of a challenge for players who want to test themselves using the best stuff available.

Also do note that I am not necessarily saying you should have to grind for hundreds of hours to do these things. I've noted on several occasions on this thread that I'd be happy to see the overall grind to max out materia be reduced. I actually think it would be ideal if you could see some of the cooler materia setups from just normal gameplay. I am not so concerned about bosses that you have to grind for 20 hours to have a chance of winning against as I am about having bosses that even with the best stuff in the game available require some strategy and planning to take on successfully.

You misunderstand me - I know you were responding to Traab. But I specifically chose to engage this quote as well because my response here was related to the previous point I was making.

Think about it - what makes a grind feel like a grind? Generally it means that you are repeatedly performing an activity, not because the activity itself is engaging, but because you are looking forward to the end result. In FF, you seek out random encounters repeatedly, not because the combat itself is particularly demanding (mentally or physically), but because it makes it possible for you to survive the truly hard fights and get the loot/materia you actually want - whether it's because you want that 100% clear, or you just want to see a specific summon/spell animation (I'll get back to this one), or because you want to make sure you're powerful enough to take on the BBEG or even the BBEG+ without having to reload an earlier save and retread a whole bunch of older content. In every case, you weren't thinking "oh boy, can't wait for another random encounter!" except in the very brief instances where you got a new move you were wanting to see the animation for.

And speaking of "see the animation" - remember too what the state of gaming was like back when FF7 was big. If you wanted to even see Tera Flare or Knights of the Round in the 90's, you either unlocked them yourself or found a friend who had done so. Screenshots in Gamepro would not do them justice. Nowadays, I can see (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ci_Xh2jTykA) them (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sv9aI5RkoeQ) whenever I want. (And as a sidenote, a 90+ second cutscene accompanying a single attack seems like it would get old fast, no matter how powerful.)

[Traab]

That's basically what was done with Ultimate Weapon and Sapphire Weapon. Ruby and Emerald just sat around because they were late additions to the game made primarily for endgame content, not necessarily a part of the story (They didn't even show up in the original japanese release). That's also why they were so much harder than the other two weapons that were in from the start.

That said, I personally don't understand the story reason for why they didn't go after Sephiroth. Like I get why at first, since the shield was up. But after return to Midgar and the big cannon shattering that barrier? All of the other weapons should have gone on a beeline to it like a dog after a squirrel. I mean they woke up in response to Sephiroth getting his hands on the Black Materia. If they had woken up earlier in response to mako reactors, I'd understand them piddling around with human towns... but that was never their main concern at all. They woke up as a direct response to Sephiroth/Jenova, and taking them down should have been priority one. I am not entirely sure what logical reason there is for that not happening. (gameplay-wise I understand you want the Heroes to be the ones to take out the big boss, and you also want the heroes to have a reason to go after the Weapons so having them rampaging through the world encourages that. But as far as the story goes, it makes no sense)

And Towns without even a Mako Reactor, like Wutai and the small hippie village where Cloud washes up in Disc 2, should never really be under any threat from the Weapons even if they are reacting to humans killing the planet. Those settlements without reactors aren't doing any sort of harm, and are possibly even actively helping.

The way I see it was, while it took sephiroth to wake them up, they ARE awake now, so they might go after lesser threats when the primary one is escaping their attention. As for towns without a reactor, eh, you could justify it in various ways. For one example, Yuffie had as her back story she had been spending a lot of time stealing tons of materia, which she intended to use to help wutai fight for freedom or something like that, right? That much solidified mako energy could be handwaved as enough to attract notice if she built up a stockpile before she joined your party. But even if wutai is out, I just used it as an easy example, an island nation that would be easy for a weapon to attack directly because there isnt a lot of stuff in between the ocean and the town to get in the way.

You could even justify cosmo canyon for an attack. Why? Because there is something wrong there since the spirits of the attacking tribe that Nanakis dad killed never returned to the lifestream. Yeah its a bit thin, but working under the presumption of the Weapons attacking all things that arent right with the planet it could work.

As for why not attack sephiroth after the shield went down? There are a couple possibilities. Mainly that Sephiroth is no longer truly in the crater, he is basically inside the lifestream end game, isnt he? I recall after fighting the final jenova you literally jump down into the lifestream to go face the final battles. That may be why they didnt make a beeline for him, its too late for them to do anything. It could possibly also do with the fact that the shield dropped not a few seconds after one of the Weapons got instagibbed. If they are at all intelligent, they may have made a connection between the two events. Yeah WE know it wasnt sephiroth that did it, the other weapons may not. And honestly, aside from ruby and emerald, how many weapons are left at that point?





I totally agree - there is no need to artificially pad game length with esper/XP grinds the way they did in the SNES days. Hopefully none of that design philosophy comes back.

I honestly thought the esper grind was pretty minimal. I mean, I had everyone learn pretty much all the spells long before I was done grinding everyone to 99 fighting dinosaurs with the exp egg. There were a couple exceptions, I think bahamut for one, its been a long time but I think you dont get that till you are in kefkas dungeon right? But most of the rest are easily learned as you play the regular game. I agree with the exp grind though. I didnt mind it when I first played the game, but my tolerance for mindless grinding has dropped a lot since then. Only time I enjoyed it was when I had a turbo controller and the endless river loop early game. Tape down the right buttons and you can come back 8 hours later and have everyone on the raft fairly high level.

[GloatingSwine]

And speaking of "see the animation" - remember too what the state of gaming was like back when FF7 was big. If you wanted to even see Tera Flare or Knights of the Round in the 90's, you either unlocked them yourself or found a friend who had done so. Screenshots in Gamepro would not do them justice. Nowadays, I can see (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ci_Xh2jTykA) them (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sv9aI5RkoeQ) whenever I want. (And as a sidenote, a 90+ second cutscene accompanying a single attack seems like it would get old fast, no matter how powerful.)

See also: Why Mortal Kombat is trying to be a proper fighting game now ;)

[Psyren]

See also: Why Mortal Kombat is trying to be a proper fighting game now ;)

lol, yep :smallbiggrin:



I honestly thought the esper grind was pretty minimal. I mean, I had everyone learn pretty much all the spells long before I was done grinding everyone to 99 fighting dinosaurs with the exp egg. There were a couple exceptions, I think bahamut for one, its been a long time but I think you dont get that till you are in kefkas dungeon right? But most of the rest are easily learned as you play the regular game. I agree with the exp grind though. I didnt mind it when I first played the game, but my tolerance for mindless grinding has dropped a lot since then. Only time I enjoyed it was when I had a turbo controller and the endless river loop early game. Tape down the right buttons and you can come back 8 hours later and have everyone on the raft fairly high level.

Yeah, we've all been there. I was one of the guys who taped down the "swim" button in Morrowind to powerlevel Athletics, or used keyclone and dual-boxing to level two WoW toons at the same time. It wasn't engaging or challenging then and it sure as hell isn't now, and RPG designers are finally beginning to realize that.

[Traab]

I used boat rides in everquest to level up my monks skills like intimidate. Hey, its an hour long process to get from one continent to another if the boat isnt already there when you are ready to board, so you gotta fill that empty time somehow. (Seriously, everquest sucked so hard in hindsight)

[danzibr]

Unrelated to the current discussion: they tie FFX in by making Blitzball a thing, and Cloud is actually pretending to be/thinks he is a Blitzball star.

[Olinser]

The way I see it was, while it took sephiroth to wake them up, they ARE awake now, so they might go after lesser threats when the primary one is escaping their attention. As for towns without a reactor, eh, you could justify it in various ways. For one example, Yuffie had as her back story she had been spending a lot of time stealing tons of materia, which she intended to use to help wutai fight for freedom or something like that, right? That much solidified mako energy could be handwaved as enough to attract notice if she built up a stockpile before she joined your party. But even if wutai is out, I just used it as an easy example, an island nation that would be easy for a weapon to attack directly because there isnt a lot of stuff in between the ocean and the town to get in the way.

You could even justify cosmo canyon for an attack. Why? Because there is something wrong there since the spirits of the attacking tribe that Nanakis dad killed never returned to the lifestream. Yeah its a bit thin, but working under the presumption of the Weapons attacking all things that arent right with the planet it could work.

As for why not attack sephiroth after the shield went down? There are a couple possibilities. Mainly that Sephiroth is no longer truly in the crater, he is basically inside the lifestream end game, isnt he? I recall after fighting the final jenova you literally jump down into the lifestream to go face the final battles. That may be why they didnt make a beeline for him, its too late for them to do anything. It could possibly also do with the fact that the shield dropped not a few seconds after one of the Weapons got instagibbed. If they are at all intelligent, they may have made a connection between the two events. Yeah WE know it wasnt sephiroth that did it, the other weapons may not. And honestly, aside from ruby and emerald, how many weapons are left at that point?



I honestly thought the esper grind was pretty minimal. I mean, I had everyone learn pretty much all the spells long before I was done grinding everyone to 99 fighting dinosaurs with the exp egg. There were a couple exceptions, I think bahamut for one, its been a long time but I think you dont get that till you are in kefkas dungeon right? But most of the rest are easily learned as you play the regular game. I agree with the exp grind though. I didnt mind it when I first played the game, but my tolerance for mindless grinding has dropped a lot since then. Only time I enjoyed it was when I had a turbo controller and the endless river loop early game. Tape down the right buttons and you can come back 8 hours later and have everyone on the raft fairly high level.

Also remember that while Sephiroth was engaged in completing a world-destroying plan, he wasn't really doing that much until he entered the Lifestream. Sure his whole Black Materia was the catalyst for it, but after that there was basically a charge-up period before he could actually use it.

I would liken it to suddenly pissing off a bear. A few guys are poking a sleeping bear with sticks. Then another guy runs up, rams a knife into it's eye, and runs away while the other guys continue to poke the bear. Bear wakes up in pain and anger.

What do we think happens now?

Yes, WE know that knife guy is primarily at fault here, causing easily the most damage and pain, while the others are primarily annoyances. The bear doesn't think that. The bear is in a large amount of pain from the knife wound, and it sees people right in front of it poking it with somewhat sharp sticks. It's not in a state to apply careful and logical reasoning. It reacts to the most immediate pain/annoyance with primal instinct and attacks them. Maybe at some point after it finished with the stick pokers it would have chased down knife guy, but right now he's going to eat the stick pokers. Even if it is going to die from the knife wound, he'll probably still eat the pokers because he's in pain, not rationally thinking, and there are things in front of it inflicting some level of pain on it that it is capable of immediately affecting.

[danzibr]

On the topic of weapons... I always thought they were really stupid. Smart enough to attack things that seem dangerous, like the cannon at Junon and Midgar, but that's about it. At least people are dangerous, thus they're attacking something dangerous.

[Rakaydos]

If they gave FF7 chracters traditional Final Fantasy classes...

Cloud: Red Mage
Tifa: Monk
Barret: ???
Aeris: White Mage
Nanaki: Black Mage
Yuffy: Thief
Vincent: Blue Mage
Cid: Dragoon

[danzibr]

If they gave FF7 chracters traditional Final Fantasy classes...

Cloud: Red Mage
Tifa: Monk
Barret: ???
Aeris: White Mage
Nanaki: Black Mage
Yuffy: Thief
Vincent: Blue Mage
Cid: Dragoon
Funny you mention that. I remember somewhere that in an early version of FFVII, they were listed as having jobs. Like, not that you could change them. The only one I remember off the top of my head is Cloud was listed as a mystic knight.

EDIT: Found it.

The characters of Final Fantasy VII were originally to have job classes. However, this idea was dropped during development. It is unknown if this would have actually affected gameplay. Cloud was intended as a Mystic Knight, Barret a Gunner, Tifa was a "Shooter" (a Monk based on Shootfighting), Aerith was a Geomancer, Red XIII was a "Beast", Cid was a "Pilot" or Dragoon, Vincent was a "Horror-Terror (Horror Researcher)", Yuffie was to be Ninja or Assassin, and Cait Sith was a "Toysaurus", a type of Beastmaster. Even if the jobs were removed from the final product, some of the characters still retain traits of their intended classes.

[Gnoman]

The wording of the character profiles in the manual also suggest that the class concept was dropped relatively late in development - Aeris is specifically mentioned as being able to use magic as if that were a rare ability.

[Psyren]

The wording of the character profiles in the manual also suggest that the class concept was dropped relatively late in development - Aeris is specifically mentioned as being able to use magic as if that were a rare ability.

It is rare - unlike 99% of the planet, she can use magic without materia, via her limit breaks.

[Rakaydos]

Any commentary as to my selections?

I like the feel of cocky "I was in SOLDIER" cloud being a Fighter/Mage/Cleric god class, but by the time he becomes "Failed sephoroth clone cloud" he's reaching the limits of the red mage class. (after mideel he's red wizard, with extra room to grow, especially as they lose their white mage at the same time)

Nanaki, Vincent, and Aeris are the party mages, because their limits are more magical. Tifa and Yuffe are obvous.

[danzibr]

Any commentary as to my selections?
Uhh, my commentary was that it's already been done. I guess I can talk about your choices.

Cloud: Red Mage
Disagree. He can only use magic via materia.

Tifa: Monk
Agree. However, most monks I can recall have some ki stuff going on.

Barret: ???
Agree.

Aeris: White Mage
Agree! Fits her perfectly.

Nanaki: Black Mage
Disagree. Again, the natural lack of magic kills it.

Yuffy: Thief
It's Yuffie. And partially agree. I think ninja is better. While she has the stealing down, thieves usually use knives whereas Yuffie uses thrown weapons, a trademark of ninja. Plus she vanishes.

Vincent: Blue Mage
Disagree. I mean, he lacks the trademark of blue mages, copying enemy abilities. He uses guns and transforms... not really like any job I'm familiar with.

Cid: Dragoon
Agree.

[DiscipleofBob]

If they gave FF7 chracters traditional Final Fantasy classes...

Cloud: Red Mage

Nope. Red Mages are Jack of All Trades, they can do everything, but they're not great at anything. Cloud is great at EVERYTHING. He would be a Spellblade if we're classifying them as such.


Tifa: Monk

I think they would technically be Blackbelts, but the difference between them is really just semantics.


Barret: ???

Closest would be a Ranger. Uses exclusively ranged weapons, even if his weapons have a modern update.


Aeris: White Mage

Obvious.


Nanaki: Black Mage

Red XIII would actually be the Red Mage. He's good, but not great, at attacks and magic.


Yuffie: Thief

It's a tossup between Thief and Ninja.


Vincent: Blue Mage

Not really. If anything, Vincent would be a Berserker since you use his limit break and lose control of him. Blue Mage would only apply to the Enemy Skill materia (which I think came with Red XIII but I'm not sure. It's been a while since I've played the game.


Cid: Dragoon

Yeah.

[GloatingSwine]

Closest would be a Ranger. Uses exclusively ranged weapons, even if his weapons have a modern update.


Not really. Ranger is a glass cannon class. Barret has the highest natural HP and Defence. He'd be something closer to a Templar with odd weapon choices.

[danzibr]

I had a thought. Probably more than anything I'm looking forward to new superbosses. Can't use Omega Weapon due to Dirge of Cerberus (or maybe they could...?). Personally, I'm hoping for Omega and Shinryuu.

[Antonok]

I had a thought. Probably more than anything I'm looking forward to new superbosses. Can't use Omega Weapon due to Dirge of Cerberus (or maybe they could...?). Personally, I'm hoping for Omega and Shinryuu.

They can. The weapons are born from the lifestream to protect the planet. And if the remake is set in the same time period as the original, DoC won't have happened yet anyhow.

[danzibr]

They can. The weapons are born from the lifestream to protect the planet. And if the remake is set in the same time period as the original, DoC won't have happened yet anyhow.
I was thinking... can't kill it. Then it won't be around for DoC.

[Antonok]

I was thinking... can't kill it. Then it won't be around for DoC.

For some reason I was thinking of Omega weapon from 8. He's not even in 7 (probably because Ultimi Weapon from 7 and Omega Weapon from 8 look alike).

I'd be happy if they revamped the battle arena to be more like the monster arena from 10.

[Mewtarthio]

I was thinking... can't kill it. Then it won't be around for DoC.

If they're remaking it, why would they want to keep Dirge of Cerberus in the canon?

[danzibr]

If they're remaking it, why would they want to keep Dirge of Cerberus in the canon?
Oh you didn't hear? After you beat the main game it switches to a FPS, DoC.