Rituals as Wondrous Items

[Milo v3]

In a low-level setting, would it be viable to cast high level spells by making one-use custom wondrous items of the spell in the form of a ritual or blessing? Or would you not allow a player to do this?

[MyrPsychologist]

Vague question.

As a general rule applied to every game and every single spell. No.

However more information would be helpful to determine the extent of what you're aiming at.

[Milo v3]

Vague question.

As a general rule applied to every game and every single spell. No.

However more information would be helpful to determine the extent of what you're aiming at.

I'm trying to figure out a way to allow a character to do rituals, since there is currently no method for ritualistic magic without fiat.

[Psyren]

I'm trying to figure out a way to allow a character to do rituals, since there is currently no method for ritualistic magic without fiat.

1) Port in Incantations from 3.5 UA.
2) Use Esoteric Components from Unchained, and require that "ritual spells" must have the rare component, Yliaster, which can only be obtained via plot means.

[Milo v3]

1) Port in Incantations from 3.5 UA.
2) Use Esoteric Components from Unchained, and require that "ritual spells" must have the rare component, Yliaster, which can only be obtained via plot means.

1) Too wishy washy for my tastes, since each one needs to be specifically homebrewed for the situation.
2) The game will already be using esoteric components, but just having to have special macguffin ingredient doesn't really make it a ritual, since there is no ritual involved, just fetching materials then casting a spell as normal.

[Segev]

If I'm reading the question right, what you're wanting to do is use the Craft Wondrous Item rules to make one-shot items that cast specific spells, but treat it not as an external item but rather an inherent, one-off power of the person who "has" the item. Is that correct?

If so, you may actually want to look, instead, at Craft Contingent Spell from Complete Arcane; the Contingency could be set to be something like "when he performs this ritualized action."


If, instead, you want to use the CWI rules to say a character is performing a ritual that has an immediate effect as if a one-shot item were created and immediately used...I don't see why not. These "rituals" will take at least a day to pull off. Since this is PF, you can use the Spellcraft rules to overcome a lack of the spell in question.

[Milo v3]

If, instead, you want to use the CWI rules to say a character is performing a ritual that has an immediate effect as if a one-shot item were created and immediately used...I don't see why not. These "rituals" will take at least a day to pull off. Since this is PF, you can use the Spellcraft rules to overcome a lack of the spell in question.
That was my main idea. Take a long time to perform the ritual, use characters knowledge of magic to create an effect they don't know how to cast, and functions at low level... sorta.


If I'm reading the question right, what you're wanting to do is use the Craft Wondrous Item rules to make one-shot items that cast specific spells, but treat it not as an external item but rather an inherent, one-off power of the person who "has" the item. Is that correct?

If so, you may actually want to look, instead, at Craft Contingent Spell from Complete Arcane; the Contingency could be set to be something like "when he performs this ritualized action."
That was how I was thinking of handling divine-ish blessings so I'll give it a look.

[Segev]

Because CWI is required to make the "ritual," and the characters would actually be better off if they forged the one-shot for later use rather than doing the "ritual" and having to get it done right then, I would suggest that you grant some compensation for the lack of convenient timing on the ritual's effect. Perhaps let them use their character level as CL.

Otherwise, to be honest, if I had already bought CWI and could make the item, I'd make the item rather than perform the ritual so that I could use the item when it was most advantageous.

[Milo v3]

Because CWI is required to make the "ritual," and the characters would actually be better off if they forged the one-shot for later use rather than doing the "ritual" and having to get it done right then, I would suggest that you grant some compensation for the lack of convenient timing on the ritual's effect. Perhaps let them use their character level as CL.

Otherwise, to be honest, if I had already bought CWI and could make the item, I'd make the item rather than perform the ritual so that I could use the item when it was most advantageous.

ugh... can't believe I forgot caster level. That makes the whole thing fail.... damn.

[Almarck]

ugh... can't believe I forgot caster level. That makes the whole thing fail.... damn.

Not so. State that rituals use the original caster level of the person creating the ritual or have a preset unmodifiable caster level.


The simplest way of allowing it is to create a specialized trigger. Unlike easier to use use activated triggers, this one is a complicated extended action trigger that takes forever to set up.

Perhaps if the "caster" lacks the sufficient levels to cast the spell himself, the time he has to spend is proportionally increased until it is sufficent.

[Milo v3]

Not so. State that rituals use the original caster level of the person creating the ritual or have a preset unmodifiable caster level.


The simplest way of allowing it is to create a specialized trigger. Unlike easier to use use activated triggers, this one is a complicated extended action trigger that takes forever to set up.

Perhaps if the "caster" lacks the sufficient levels to cast the spell himself, the time he has to spend is proportionally increased until it is sufficent.

Except the original person creating the ritual is too low level to cast the spell, that was the intent of the thing since it's a low level campaign. And I suck at finding those increase caster level things in PF.

[Almarck]

Except the original person creating the ritual is too low level to cast the spell, that was the intent of the thing since it's a low level campaign. And I suck at finding those increase caster level things in PF.

How about for each caster level the caster lacks, the time spend casting increases the "casting time" to one step.

1 action turns to 1 minutes, then to 10 minutes, to an hour, to 2 hours and so on and so forth?

[Milo v3]

How about for each caster level the caster lacks, the time spend casting increases the "casting time" to one step.

1 action turns to 1 minutes, then to 10 minutes, to an hour, to 2 hours and so on and so forth?

But the casting time of the ritual in this case is the time to craft the wondrous item?

[Psyren]

Too wishy washy for my tastes, since each one needs to be specifically homebrewed for the situation.


So what? Aren't you only replacing specific spells, e.g. resurrection? How hard could it be to come up with incantations for each one you want to make available?

You don't have many alternatives if banning high-level spells is really what you want to do.

[Milo v3]

So what? Aren't you only replacing specific spells, e.g. resurrection? How hard could it be to come up with incantations for each one you want to make available?

You don't have many alternatives if banning high-level spells is really what you want to do.

This is for replacing all spells that are higher level, not just for specific spells like resurrection, planar ally, etc. And it's not for banning high level spells, it's just that it's a low-level setting.

[Almarck]

This is for replacing all spells that are higher level, not just for specific spells like resurrection, planar ally, etc. And it's not for banning high level spells, it's just that it's a low-level setting.

What's the highest level you want to use for your players? And how are you handling magic items?
Might as well know that so we have an idea of where to start?

[Segev]

Given that this is something you want for your players, what you need to do is identify how high a level a spell you want them to be able to replicate with what difficulty.

If you waive the requirement that the PC have the CL to pull it off, but keep the gp costs associated with minimum CL (or even effective CL), that could make it worthwhile to do the ritual for the effect, in and of itself: arbitrary CL for a commensurate amount of gp, regardless of actual CL/character level of the ritualist.

[Psyren]

This is for replacing all spells that are higher level, not just for specific spells like resurrection, planar ally, etc. And it's not for banning high level spells, it's just that it's a low-level setting.

Even so, I assume you'll only want to allow specific high-level spells and ban the rest. Or are things like Genesis and Ice Assassin intended to be available?

[Milo v3]

What's the highest level you want to use for your players? And how are you handling magic items?
Might as well know that so we have an idea of where to start?
Not sure, 8 maybe. As for items, they'd be as normal as far as I can tell.


Given that this is something you want for your players, what you need to do is identify how high a level a spell you want them to be able to replicate with what difficulty.

If you waive the requirement that the PC have the CL to pull it off, but keep the gp costs associated with minimum CL (or even effective CL), that could make it worthwhile to do the ritual for the effect, in and of itself: arbitrary CL for a commensurate amount of gp, regardless of actual CL/character level of the ritualist.
I have no idea how high I want them to be able to replicate.


Even so, I assume you'll only want to allow specific high-level spells and ban the rest. Or are things like Genesis and Ice Assassin intended to be available?
Well, it's PF so I don't have to deal with things like Ice Assassin, but Create Demiplane and stuff would be available if it was possible.

edit: Semi-off topic, but re-reading incantations makes me wonder if anyone knows anything similar to it that is viable for low levels? Flavourwise they'd be very fitting for minor rituals people might do for "mundane" magic, but the DC's are ridiculously high to do anything even like prestigitation with it.

[Segev]

If you don't know how high you want them to replicate, then you could just let them use CWI rules as written, but require that anything they're breaking normal rules for (e.g. things beyond their own CL) are rituals and trigger as soon as they're "done."

[Psyren]

edit: Semi-off topic, but re-reading incantations makes me wonder if anyone knows anything similar to it that is viable for low levels? Flavourwise they'd be very fitting for minor rituals people might do for "mundane" magic, but the DC's are ridiculously high to do anything even like prestigitation with it.

So adjust them :smalltongue: throw in an ad-hoc focus they need that reduces the DC by 10 or something.

I'm more suggesting the concept than the word-for-word ruleset. You're going to have to homebrew something either way.

[Kymme]

To overcome CL limits, why not say that multiple casters can work together to 'mimic' a higher CL? You could calculate the new caster level the same way you'd calculate CR, where weaker casters don't add quite as much as powerful casters.

[Milo v3]

So adjust them :smalltongue: throw in an ad-hoc focus they need that reduces the DC by 10 or something.

I'm more suggesting the concept than the word-for-word ruleset. You're going to have to homebrew something either way.
I'd rather not have to write up a whole ruleset just for minor mundane-y style magic if I can.


To overcome CL limits, why not say that multiple casters can work together to 'mimic' a higher CL? You could calculate the new caster level the same way you'd calculate CR, where weaker casters don't add quite as much as powerful casters.
Could work.