Teaching PCs value of life after saving them from death

[Areinu]

I am running campaign using Princes of Apocalypse book. Our group started as level 1 and after 2 sessions they are about to go to level 2. I introduced them to the town and they found out leads for simple quests introduced in 6th chapter, meant for 1-2 level characters. Everything was going fine.

In one of the quests heroes checked out a tomb and after going out of it were ambushed by goblin and half-ogre. They killed half-ogre... pretty terribly and goblin ran away. Ranger immediately tried to pursue, but rest of the team didn't. Things happened and goblin managed to run, which probably wouldn't happen if ranger wasn't alone. Afterwards group slowly regrouped and made a short rest. During the time of the rest goblin went back to his camp and took his belongings. Heroes then found out the camp and started the chase... Yet the goblin had around of 1 hour of head-start.

They were really persistent about following the goblin and they might even have gotten his hide, but then I did something. I rolled for random encounter on midnight and checked out "early travels" encounter table. What I rolled was bandits. 1d4+1 bandits + 1d4 black earth guards. I rolled 2 bandits, 3 guards and started describing the encounter while checking stats for guards in the book. When I saw the stats I knew instantly that I was looking at total party KO.

I role played it in a way that left PCs way to escape, and also made sure to mention how overly well equipped they look. Plate armors? They can't be mere bandits! But the PCs went for a fight... I didn't want to kill them as whole encounter was due to my lack of knowledge what's on random encounter list and I didn't expect anything that strong in "early" travels. That said 1 hero got knocked out within seconds of fight, while 2nd got to brink of death. Only gnome managed to somehow get unscratched. Letting it roll like this players were sure to die. They knew it, I knew it...

I rolled a die behind the screen with difficulty 15, no bonuses on "something saves them" and got 18. Thus I made a story where patrol from Red Larch was going back to town and saw the attack. It wasn't so implausible since they were at Long Road, which probably IS patrolled. PCs had impression of local law as incompetent and lazy though. The only other ideas I had at that time was to use weather anomalies, that are hooks for druid, ranger and sorcerer, to somehow save them. Maybe wind and thunders striking at full plate armor guys, which would run screaming "those howling idiots! They are at it again!" or something like this. Or that bandits only knocked them out and took into some sort of dungeon... for reasons.

The sudden patrol did seem like a stretch though, and one of the players even called deus ex machina upon that. I think they might get false sense of safety now that I saved them, and I did that only because it was my mistake that led to whole situation. So they are not safe. Hey, the gnome in the same session even went to 2 failed saves upon KO.

What would be the best way to teach them that they can't survive anything and sometimes should place safe after what transpired?

[KorvinStarmast]

What would be the best way to teach them that they can't survive anything and sometimes should place safe after what transpired?
Some people have to learn the hard way. It's not all on you.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Maybe explain to them out of character, "sorry about that bandit encounter, I messed up on the CR and felt like I had to save you. Please be aware that I won't be doing it again."

You could then back it up with in-game symbolism - maybe the patrol route gets cancelled because it's becoming too dangerous, or the guards who saved the party die suddenly.

[Slipperychicken]

Let them know you fudged it to save them, that some encounters like those are much too strong and can wipe them, and that you won't be fudging it again. After that, you proceed to roll in the open and not fudge it again. If you end up fudging it again, that can quickly erode the sense of danger and make the players bored or impetuous.

My DM's running PotA and killed my PC with bandits. The occasional death or TPK serves as a helpful reminder that fighting is dangerous.

[ImSAMazing]

I am running campaign using Princes of Apocalypse book. Our group started as level 1 and after 2 sessions they are about to go to level 2. I introduced them to the town and they found out leads for simple quests introduced in 6th chapter, meant for 1-2 level characters. Everything was going fine.

In one of the quests heroes checked out a tomb and after going out of it were ambushed by goblin and half-ogre. They killed half-ogre... pretty terribly and goblin ran away. Ranger immediately tried to pursue, but rest of the team didn't. Things happened and goblin managed to run, which probably wouldn't happen if ranger wasn't alone. Afterwards group slowly regrouped and made a short rest. During the time of the rest goblin went back to his camp and took his belongings. Heroes then found out the camp and started the chase... Yet the goblin had around of 1 hour of head-start.

They were really persistent about following the goblin and they might even have gotten his hide, but then I did something. I rolled for random encounter on midnight and checked out "early travels" encounter table. What I rolled was bandits. 1d4+1 bandits + 1d4 black earth guards. I rolled 2 bandits, 3 guards and started describing the encounter while checking stats for guards in the book. When I saw the stats I knew instantly that I was looking at total party KO.

I role played it in a way that left PCs way to escape, and also made sure to mention how overly well equipped they look. Plate armors? They can't be mere bandits! But the PCs went for a fight... I didn't want to kill them as whole encounter was due to my lack of knowledge what's on random encounter list and I didn't expect anything that strong in "early" travels. That said 1 hero got knocked out within seconds of fight, while 2nd got to brink of death. Only gnome managed to somehow get unscratched. Letting it roll like this players were sure to die. They knew it, I knew it...

I rolled a die behind the screen with difficulty 15, no bonuses on "something saves them" and got 18. Thus I made a story where patrol from Red Larch was going back to town and saw the attack. It wasn't so implausible since they were at Long Road, which probably IS patrolled. PCs had impression of local law as incompetent and lazy though. The only other ideas I had at that time was to use weather anomalies, that are hooks for druid, ranger and sorcerer, to somehow save them. Maybe wind and thunders striking at full plate armor guys, which would run screaming "those howling idiots! They are at it again!" or something like this. Or that bandits only knocked them out and took into some sort of dungeon... for reasons.

The sudden patrol did seem like a stretch though, and one of the players even called deus ex machina upon that. I think they might get false sense of safety now that I saved them, and I did that only because it was my mistake that led to whole situation. So they are not safe. Hey, the gnome in the same session even went to 2 failed saves upon KO.

What would be the best way to teach them that they can't survive anything and sometimes should place safe after what transpired?
Tell them what happend, about your mistake. Then tell them that they don't need to think they're safe. If they dont listen, don't be scared to kill one of them. Show them you are legit and don't want to keep the party alive at all costs.


Maybe explain to them out of character, "sorry about that bandit encounter, I messed up on the CR and felt like I had to save you. Please be aware that I won't be doing it again."

You could then back it up with in-game symbolism - maybe the patrol route gets cancelled because it's becoming too dangerous, or the guards who saved the party die suddenly.

[Slipperychicken]

Also, try not to set out to kill PCs either. The idea is to be fair so your players can appreciate their victories and failures without attributing them to fiat.

[luckythepirate]

It was pretty early game, i would have let them croak. reason is, if they had a way out and you stressed how well geared the bandits were, they should have taken the escape. except for the 18 you rolled, i would have done a luck check.

had a dwarf barbarian at lvl 5 run endlessly for 18 or so hours to inform a town of an incoming orc invasion, and as i was warning the town they showed up so i fought them completely exhausted to help the people escape. dm kept saying i was gonna die so i had to let him, that's just how it goes sometimes. plus i had written down on my character sheet if i died taking a lot of orcs down with me i would die happy and complete. after the battle when the orcs were finally driven back they found my corpse under 100 orc bodies. he was known from then on as the orc eater.

[Areinu]

Thanks for all the replies.

I didn't want them to croak this early mostly due to one player. She was the only one who wanted to escape and tried to convince the rest. When others went suicidal she followed suit because that was VERY in character. She was struggling to role play instead of escape, and since it was her first session that was admirable. Also, dying at that point wouldn't make for a good story.

I will talk to them before next session, explain what transpired. I will tell them they can't expect not to die in the future. Actually they might die in next place they are going to since there is pretty deadly encounter at the end(but only if they push for it, they will have good chance to completely avoid it). Also, I will point other players that their characters, with their characteristics written on the cards don't seem like the types to act as they did.

If they die afterwards because of their actions then it's on them. If they die because of rolls or something... well, that's on dice.

Patrolmen dying in the future is a nice idea. Actually when they come back from where they are heading something is going to happen and it will be good reason to keep patrolmen in town for weeks, so they might even survive!

[Dhago]

Thanks for all the replies.

I didn't want them to croak this early mostly due to one player. She was the only one who wanted to escape and tried to convince the rest. When others went suicidal she followed suit because that was VERY in character. She was struggling to role play instead of escape, and since it was her first session that was admirable. Also, dying at that point wouldn't make for a good story.

I will talk to them before next session, explain what transpired. I will tell them they can't expect not to die in the future. Actually they might die in next place they are going to since there is pretty deadly encounter at the end(but only if they push for it, they will have good chance to completely avoid it). Also, I will point other players that their characters, with their characteristics written on the cards don't seem like the types to act as they did.

If they die afterwards because of their actions then it's on them. If they die because of rolls or something... well, that's on dice.

Patrolmen dying in the future is a nice idea. Actually when they come back from where they are heading something is going to happen and it will be good reason to keep patrolmen in town for weeks, so they might even survive!


Why would you do that? It was THEIR mistake, not yours... You can't expect that playing D&D it will be the same that play RPG on a computer. On D&D at lvl 1 you can encounter an ancient red dragon in front of you and you can't do anything about that!

If you have an intencion of hit, hit, hit, and then some hit more, you are, basically, playing Diablo. The party can encounter a lot of problems and NPC that has 5 or more lvls on the way.

What would do I on that case? I don't make party kills unless the dice decide that.
I should send them a party of 2 or 3 rogues, making no lethal damage to the party, let them unconcious and steal all their equipment... on the middle of a mountain... with snow and white wind.

In that specific moment, your party will understand that not everithing is about chaseing goblins, if not to survive. And, if you do what i said up, make a mini history of how the party must work as a team to not death to freeze.

The learngin comes with examples of how bad the thigs were on middle earth. Making close combat with a bear becouse you need meat and his skin to don't pass cold.

That's my opinion, don't appologies, teach them within role playing.

[PotatoGolem]

I'm gonna push back a bit on the whole "Punish them! Teach them a lesson! This is D&D and the players should suffer, dagnabbit!" It sounds like (from what you've said) one of the players in new to D&D. New players are quick to leave the game if it's not fun. If they feel like they're being punished, they'll just leave. And even more experienced players should and will leave if you're playing full DM vs PCs and stupid DM fiat harm. Kill a PC to teach them a lesson? No, that's just being on a DM powertrip. Have rogues steal all their gear on a mountain? You better have a REAL good explanation on how a few rogues managed to carry away heavy armor and all those weapons and no one got the chance to hear them. 3 rogues carrying away the whole party's gear is just as much of ridiculous DM fiat as the patrol, if not more.

Be a grown-up and apologize. I've had bad DMs and I've made mistakes and been a bad DM. People will forgive it and move on as long as you're open and honest about making a mistake. They'll quit if you fix it with more DM fiat and nonsense. From your replies, you're making the right choice. Stick with it.

Tl;dr: Don't "punish" the players because of YOUR mistake, because it's not their fault if you mess up.

[Mindtour]

We have to look at the other side as well. The players went headlong into a fight that they were clearly outmatched in. Their fair warning was your explanation that the enemies weren't your run-of-the-mill bandits since a few of them were sporting plate. By your words, you even offered an escape plan. The players need to realize that they can't take everything on by themselves. You're raising murderhobos.

[Person_Man]

Before a campaign starts, I always tell my players that I will never railroad them into a specific course of action, but that not every creature they encounter is going to be beatable in combat, and its up to them to assess the situation and decide how to handle it.

So for me, a lot depends on if the bandits attack the players, or did the players come upon a camp of bandits and decided to attack them.

If its the former, I think you railroaded them into their course of action. You made it clear that they had to fight or run. Given those two options, most players will chose to fight.

On the flip side, if the players saw a superior group of enemies and chose to attack them, then they own their own fate. They could have observed the bandits, lured them away one at a time to kill them, avoided them to hunt the goblin, or whatever else they wanted to do. Since its not a binary choice, players could be creative in how they handled it, and wouldn't necessarily feel like cowards for avoiding combat.

And in general, its a good DM practice to treat all encounters as optional. Players should rarely be forced into any situation, and when they are (you are being hunted by the evil mercenaries for your crimes...) it should come with significant foreshadowing, so that they can try to avoid or alter the encounter before it occurs.

[MrStabby]

Tricky situation really. Appologising and admitting you got something wrong rarely is a bad move, especially as a DM. If you did they would forgive you.

On the other hand whether you did something wrong may depend on your group.

Having an encounter they couldn't overcome through pure force but instead required judgement and thought to survive may be exactly the right thing depending on what your group expects. If your group just wants to smash face with few repercussions and you are happy DMing that way then yes its a mistake. If you are playing a campaign where being stupid can get you killed and everyone prefers the more dangerous type game then allowing a dangerous situation to come up in a dangerous game is no bad thing.

I would say you could apologise to your new player for not having a more gentle introduction but she grasped what the others didn't. In those circumstances the "I told you so" aspect may help mitigate the death and make her less unhappy about the experience.

I would maybe approach it by having a chat with the players about what they want. If they do want a dangerous campaign or not. If they do, and they do want to have to be careful to not die then OOC you can see that they appreciate these things. Also - the fact that some of the encounters in the campaign are random not planned and that some things are unexpected will make people appreciate their resources and may make them stock up on expendable items. In a discussion be open to saying you got it wrong, but feel free to ask them. If they decide they do want dangerous encounters, or at least the possibility of them, then they will probably engage well with it.

[goto124]

It's a misunderstanding of the type of game you're playing.

All that description of how tough the bad guys are, plus the escape route? All just faked to build up tension. It happens a lot in computer games, so if your players are more used to that kind of gameplay, it's far more understandable.

Just explain to them that this is a lethal game, no punches pulled back. Then stick to your word. It'll take a while to switch styles, so continue with the warnings as usual.

Or follow their style. As long as everyone's on the same page.

[Areinu]

I'm not planning on killing a hero just for show. We will have "the talk", and if someone dies then someone dies.

As for attack rolls I always roll them in the dice tower, which is in the open. I don't roll for the damage though, I just use set score. The only rolls that are rolled in secret are skill/ability checks that would be spoiled if hero knew the number rolled. And initiative, since I might roll for monsters that heroes might not know about. In battle the worst thing that could happen is heroes realizing what AC a monster has, and I don't see it as a bad thing.

Fun first, so I don't plan to punish the players. Plus that encounter was my mistake, because those were supposed to be some goons who would only slow down the heroes, not wipe them out. Also, the party is new(most players are quite experienced though), and they are still learning how to work together.

It will be two weeks until we play again, so we will see if they will adjust.