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F1zban
2015-06-16, 10:44 AM
Hi Forum,

Building a new Sci-Fi setting for a game I have coming up in a year or two. Just looking for some input into one of the core aspects of the game.

The empire the party works for rule the known galaxy almost undisputedly. This has been achieved through thousands of years of war. In order to keep the civilian population amenable to this, the military and civilian populations are kept wholly separate (similar to the idea of the Teladi). The two factions know very little of each other's lifestyles and attitudes.

This has been achieved through two methods.
The military is primarily made up of clones that are intelligent and fully sentient, but are aware of their position, creation, and purpose in the military. They are not educated on civilian activities, only that they fight to defend 'the people' (temporary name?). Former civilians are members of the military, but they are as a result of savant individuals fulfilling special roles (similar to Ender's Game).
The civilian population has had the concept of war, battles, and violence bred out through thousands of years of education and separation from the military. Though they are aware of the military and what it does, the idea of war is an abstract to them. Violence is a quaint idea that is often seen as barbaric and pitiable. They otherwise live in a relative utopia.

The party (along with other savant individuals) have been re-introduced to civilian life as there is no more war. All the enemies of the state have been defeated and the empire has known peace for some years now. Much like the romans, they decommissioned a significant portion of their military assets, even giving the military a small sector of space to call their own. The clones have been re-educated to allow them to become farmers, engineers, etc. The savants have also undergone education to help them return to civilian life, re-joining their respective families and living the rest of their lives in peace.

I'm looking for input on the above concepts. Holes in the ideas, elaboration, improvement. As above, I have anything up to two years before my GMing slot rolls around again so there is ample time to undergo world building. I thought that maybe I'd open this one up to the community as well as my players.

Thanks in advance, I look forward to the discussion.

Segev
2015-06-16, 11:11 AM
This kind of thing typically is a mistake, if the system has worked thus far, because the "reintegration" of the military folks is going to more than likely make them feel like outcasts and worse like they would be better off demonstrating just how barbaric they can be (living down to expectations).

One hole I see right off is: if the "savants" come from a civilian populace who have had violence bred and indoctrinated out of them to the point that they see it as quaint and barbaric, how do the "savants" even get into the military in the first place? I don't mean, "how are they allowed in?" but rather, "how do they psychologically survive the culture shock?"

In addition, what is the nature of the imperial government? How rampant is corruption? How high up does it (usually) go? The higher up, the more pervasive; the lower down it stops, the more localized it will tend to be. Though a corrupt populace can still have lots of small-scale corruption. And there WILL be corruption; it's human nature for the powerful to take advantage of their position. It takes a lot of work even for the scrupulous to police themselves.

How do "the people" react to corruption? How do they react to oppression? Violence is something that happens internally, as well; we wouldn't need police if we could count on people to acquiece to authority without the threat of violence.

In fact, police would be a more natural place to put the clones than in their own sector of space; they are familiar with violence, and they are trained to revere "the people" as those they are to protect. If they're well trained and strictly regimented, they should be able to follow orders as to levels of force and proper means of engagement with the civilian populace and the criminal element therein.


I'm guessing your plot complications are to center around the difficulties the PCs have (re-)integrating with civilian society. In that vein, the planned-for actions will generate exactly the sort of conflict you might want. Keeping it believable without making your government suicidally stupid will be a bit of a challenge, but it can be done. Good luck!

Maglubiyet
2015-06-16, 11:33 AM
One hole I see right off is: if the "savants" come from a civilian populace who have had violence bred and indoctrinated out of them to the point that they see it as quaint and barbaric, how do the "savants" even get into the military in the first place? I don't mean, "how are they allowed in?" but rather, "how do they psychologically survive the culture shock?"

I could see it if they were taken from their families when they were very young and re-trained for their new roles. The problem would be putting them back.

F1zban - what is the power structure of this empire? Is there faster-than-light travel/communication? Is it truly galaxy-spanning, with billions of worlds?

It seems at the scale you're suggesting that there would need to be a lot of local autonomy granted to regional representatives unless you've got instant interstellar teleportation. Are the regional governors human, drawn from the civilian population? Or are they military clones? Or something else entirely, like a family dynasty that is immortal through technology or something? Like Segev asked, are they subject to corruption and how are they kept in line?

Other questions that may impact the structure you've developed:

Are the inhabited worlds all earth-like or do they range from barren, toxic-atmosphere mining colonies to Eden-like paradises?

Are resources distributed unevenly throughout the empire worlds (allowing local power blocs to arise)?

Are there different socio-economic classes within the empire?

Who were the empire fighting and what is their current status (dead, imprisoned, re-educated/reformed, slaves)?

Reltzik
2015-06-16, 11:36 AM
Relevant to your post:

What happened to the people the Empire conquered? Were they wiped out by way of genocide, planet-busters, etc? Is the Empire's military totally okay with having followed these orders, or are they harrowed by guilt? If they were incorporated into the Empire instead, what happened to THEIR military? Are there any remnants looking to still break away? Do they have equal standing, including representation and clout in the central government?

What's the weapon mix look like? Were tactical nukes routinely fired from shoulder-mounted tubes and planet-busters from single-pilot fighter craft, or was defensive armor so extreme that killing had to be done one-on-one with melee weapons (a-la Dune)? This will shape your players' memories of the war, their current capabilities, and their codes of honor. Can terrorists acquire the same capabilities, offensive or defensive? Can the PCs, now that they're private citizens?

Who was the go-between between civilian and military castes? At some point up the chain of command, someone had to give orders to both. How far up was this? Were they more interested in promoting civilian or military agendas? If they had a choice between sending a shipment of food to support a military campaign or to disaster relief for a civilian population, where would they send it? Which caste were they drawn from?

You say the military's been turned into farmers. What does farming entail in your sci-fi setting? Is it mostly automated greenhouses, with the PCs programming preferences and doing maintanence work? Is the maintence work automated? Is their main concern a genetic-engineering arms race with their competitors, or trying to get the land terraformed quickly enough to get a crop in? Do they have to get hands-on and anachronistic with hand tools and tilling the land with animal-drawn plows? Why? Are farms primarily on planetary surfaces, or are there satellite sky farms with perfectly controlled weather and 24/7 sunlight? Who buys the crops? What are shipping costs like?

Nitty-gritty: Stuff not necessarily relevant to what you talked about, but still worth thinking about.

One of my rules for sci-fi settings is "make it as un-sci-fi as possible to still tell the story". Every sci-fi element you add that isn't required for the story, is an element that your players/audience have to spend time digesting that could be better spent engaged in the story.

For example, you have a galaxy-spanning civilization for a story or situation that sounds like (arbitrary population numbers notwithstanding) it could fit onto a single planet. Just replace "given a few sectors of their own" with "given a continent or large island of their own". Now I'm not saying you should give up the galaxy-spanning civilization. But what kind of story can you tell on that scale that you CAN'T tell on the planetary scale?

How fast is interstellar transportation? Can a ship get across the galaxy in an hour? A day? A month? A year? A millenium? How does this speed or slowness of transport affect warfare? Can a fugitive or retreating army be literally anywhere in the galaxy within an hour? Do soldiers that undertake an invasion have to colonize the conquered planet because they'd die of old age if they attempted a return trip? Are logistics super-easy because of fast transport, or complicated because they have to be planned out months in advance, or non-existent because all a strike force has is what they bring with them? How do defense planners and intelligence agencies deal with the threat that a flotilla sitting in a star system half a galaxy away can be invading by next Tuesday? What's the range on ships? Could they just travel directly from any star to any star, or is there a need to secure intermediate territory and bases of operation? Do ships travel through normal space or some parallel space (eg hyperspace)? How hard is it to detect incoming ships? Does interstellar travel require large installations like jump gates, and if so how does control of these installations affect warfare and commerce?

Is communication faster than travel or is it limited by the speed of couriers? How would slow, fast, or instantaneous communication affect military coordination? Civilian administration? Entertainment and culture? How difficult or expensive is transportation and communication? Does sending a single bit of information require an hour of output from a fusion plant and transmitter the size of a skyscraper, or does everyone have high-speed pan-galactic internet from a small, battery-operated computer? Would you have a bunch of isolated worlds with divergent cultures loosely held together by expensive communications, or would you have everyone talking with exactly the same accent because that's the accent that the three major broadcasters who reach every household in the entire galaxy use, and everyone watches exactly the same TV shows?

What proportion of the galaxy is habitable? What portion of it has non-humans, and what were THEIR cultures like before being incorporated into the Empire? Are there only twelve worlds that can support human life, or twelve million? How many of those are colonized and how thoroughly? Stare at the Drake Equation for a while and ponder what each of those values are in your universe.

braveheart
2015-06-16, 02:28 PM
In any situation where a group has been literally bred and raised fir war, if there is no more war they are likely to make some. Upon hearing that the war is over, there would likely be a group of military clones who go rogue, meaning that the military would then have to deal with them. Unless you are saying that this already happened after your mysterious space enemy was removed.
How are crimes dealt with for civilians? Is any crime punished with lethal injection, prison time, or do criminals just disappear? What constitutes a crime, is it any act of violence, or are there countless laws and rules used to govern civilian behavior?

Elbeyon
2015-06-16, 03:57 PM
Whoever designed this system should be told it was a horrible idea. By design one nation was split into two. One group was given a desire, drive and the skills to commit violence unconditionally, and the other was designed for peace and a regular life. Both groups seem totally incapable of understanding one another. Once the war is over these warriors are suppose to drop their guns and become second class citizens? Civilians are better trained at being civilians; it'd create a tier system of skill in which warriors are on the bottom. And, the civilians aren't going to want all of these killing monsters with alien mindsets living with them. Once their enemy falls the two group's equilibrium would deteriorate as they are two organisms that were balanced against an opposing force. Warriors become obsolete and their value drops while civilians positions are elevated above the warriors. I could easily see the warriors forcing themselves back to the top with the one thing they they are skilled. Violence. I could see something like a protection racket forming. The warriors still get everything the civilians we're giving to them and in exchange they don't make examples out of them. One side has all the guns and the desire to use it; the other side has everything the guys with the guns want.

NowhereMan583
2015-06-16, 04:32 PM
One hole I see right off is: if the "savants" come from a civilian populace who have had violence bred and indoctrinated out of them to the point that they see it as quaint and barbaric, how do the "savants" even get into the military in the first place? I don't mean, "how are they allowed in?" but rather, "how do they psychologically survive the culture shock?"

This is a pretty good point. OP refers to Ender's Game, though, which suggests a solution. Maybe the savants don't actually interact with the soldiers or experience actual battle at any point (before the reintegration, anyway), because they are insulated by a layer of abstraction. Problems are presented to them in the form of logic puzzles or games, and they're trained to solve them without actually considering the concrete reality behind it all.


In fact, police would be a more natural place to put the clones than in their own sector of space; they are familiar with violence, and they are trained to revere "the people" as those they are to protect. If they're well trained and strictly regimented, they should be able to follow orders as to levels of force and proper means of engagement with the civilian populace and the criminal element therein.

Of course, if the civilian population lives in a violence-free utopia... are there police as we would know them? Are they even necessary? If these soldiers were reintegrated into an idyllic utopia and given the role of law enforcement, I would expect a bit of a backlash. Think about it -- what would happen if a group of men and women accustomed to violence were given that kind of authority in a pacifist society? No matter how much training they're given as to levels of force, I see a huge police-brutality scandal arising the first time they do something like, say, trip a shoplifter to keep them from running away. Or cuffed someone: "In our top story today, a squad of police officers forced a citizen into restraints and shoved him into a vehicle with their own hands. Public outcry against this barbaric behavior has reached a peak, as thousands march in protest..."


Who was the go-between between civilian and military castes? At some point up the chain of command, someone had to give orders to both. How far up was this? Were they more interested in promoting civilian or military agendas? If they had a choice between sending a shipment of food to support a military campaign or to disaster relief for a civilian population, where would they send it? Which caste were they drawn from?

Idea: there's a third caste. The relatively tiny aristocracy is, just like the civilians and the military, completely isolated from anyone outside of their caste. They don't even live on the same planets; they have their own worlds. Reports from the highest echelons of civilian and military authority come to them, and they send instructions back without ever actually meeting their subjects. Maybe this caste even makes extensive use of computerized models and A.I. problem-solving, so they are just as abstracted and insulated from the populace as the military and civilian castes are from each other. They don't think of their subjects in terms of fellow human beings -- it's more like they're playing a galaxy-spanning game of Civilization.

Braveheart and Elbeyon also make some pretty good points above... and it sounds to me like those are exactly the reasons why this campaign could be a lot of fun.

F1zban
2015-06-16, 05:16 PM
Right, done. Over 2000 words (lol) but I've tried to address and elaborate on the points above. Feel free to disseminate, elaborate, or even criticise. That's why I'm here ^_^

How to deal with the social/psychological effects of reintegration for savants?

The savant’s (as they are now colloquially known) are taken at a very young age, where a set of examinations that are standard across the population identify them. Although they are not kept insulated from combat (the party members specifically having a very close relationship with it, being formerly special forces) they are given psychological training to cope with these.
Note: Perhaps they are taught simply not to care for the casualties they cause, bordering a non-malicious xenophobia? Even go so far as to assure that those who appear to be susceptible to resisting such ideas have ‘training accidents’ to be removed from the picture, although this would create an additional problem with re-integration.
Alternatively, the savants could be raised with a greater good mentality. In order for their own people to survive, these people (their enemies) have to die, it’s as simple as that. Though I will leave it up to the players to decide how this affects their own characters, the solution has an incredibly simple real life analogue. More than a few of the former military personnel I work with are of the opinion that it (killing other people) was just a job. Many real life soldiers (one of which is one of my players) come back from war torn hells to re-join civilian life without a hitch. I don’t see why that cannot happen here, where the level of technology allows for more extensive psychological screening and even re-education.
There is also the idea that the savant’s are given an option on where to live; reintegrate with the civilian population or join the clones on their worlds.
Those who choose to reintegrate with the civilian population are given a time (around 5 years?) of fully supervised education and slow integration with society, managed by psychologists and specialists that know who they are ‘treating?’ and regard their wards with the same care and caution they would someone with an inherently violent psychosis. If the savant adapts the great, if not, then off to the clone planets. The game will be set 20 years after the last war so there will be ample time to ‘arrange’ for reintegration.
As for the savants who go to live with the clones, they are afforded the same rights as the clones, and the same care.

How relevant is corruption, and how is it dealt with?

Corruption, this is a Utopian society. There may very well be corruption, but regardless of human nature, any such corruption would be of the non-violent kind (at least in the civilian population). Perhaps financial scandal and the like? Either way, they are dealt with as crimes and punished accordingly, however in a society where violence is seen as barbaric I imagine it to be heavily biased to rehabilitative care. In the example of the above financial scandal, a solution may be: The stolen funds were retrieved and returned to the rightful parties, the culprits have been remanded to custodial care and have undergone trial. Evidence has unequivocally proven a guilty status and the subjects are to undergo rehabilitative care. Several years later they re-join society as constructive citizens.
We are talking about a society that can take a soldier who has killed millions of people (get to that shortly) and turn them into a constructive member of a pacifistic society. I know it’s a bit white washy but 1. Can’t be any worse than “Why isn’t every government ruled by powerful mages” question in a fantasy setting and 2. The utopia may not last much longer anyway (wink wink).

How fast is travel and communication? How many planets are inhabitable and inhabited

This won’t be the first Sci-Fi setting I’ve built, and my previous one had a significant amount of research put into it. So far as the logistics of the world goes, I can just copy/paste from my previous setting. Helps with my players too because they already know the specifics of things like FTL travel:

A slip space the slip drive generates a distortion field that allows slip space to enter into real space. The area within the anomaly is replaced with slip space which tries to escape into real space via the weakest point in the field (which can be manipulated via the engines controls). When the area of slip space tries to escape it bends the anomaly into a curve which leaves an area of literally nothingness, real space immediately replaces this nothingness which creates a wave form that pushes the anomaly in the direction of the fields weakest point thus providing thrust. This effect pushes the anomaly at phenomenal speeds and takes whatever is inside the anomaly with it. As a side effect of not being in real space the anomaly and any object inside it is no longer effected by real space and can have no effect on real space. In practical terms this means a ship moving using a slip drive can pass harmlessly through any object or effect in real space without incident. Carolen scientists have tried for many years to implement this into a defensive system but the nature of a slip space bubble means it is immediately propelled to faster than light speeds. When a slip space bubble is created it accelerates immediately to a uniform speed 146000 times the speed of light (16.666rec. light years per hour) and when the field is turned off the anomaly immediately dissipates leaving the ship in real space at whatever speed it was travelling when it created the field. Moving into and out of a slip space bubble creates no inertia or physical effect. Creating a slip space bubble takes a lot of power and all ships fitted with this drive have a dedicated power supply.

I know that seems like a very specific speed but I got there by deciding what I wanted to be a reasonable but advanced time to get from point A to point B (opposite sides of a specific faction’s controlled area of space) and calculated it against the distance. As a result FTL travel is incredibly fast, and pan galactic distances can be traversed in a matter of months. This will obviously need altering to allow for interdiction (so as to stop the empire’s former enemies from just warping to a civilian planet) but whitewashing can take care of that. I also intend to whitewash intergalactic communication.

What happened to the former enemies of the empire

The former enemies of the empire are gone. Those who have not been made entirely extinct exist in small pockets on otherwise backwater or tactically insignificant planets. Depopulation was a common strategy of the military, and although it was encouraged to try and preserve the habitability of the planet in question, glassing it was not prohibited.
As a result there once were, and still are an abundance of habitable planets of every type and size, however such populations are unmanageable without significant bureaucratic investment. As a result, occupation and colonisation was not a goal for the empire, simply extermination. The civilian population probably inhabit no more than 100 worlds, the rest simply left to nature. The reasons why will not be addressed in this campaign and as a result do not need to be addressed here, though ideas would be interesting (in case of future games in this world).
The inhabited planets do not range wildly in difference, being a utopian society, it only makes sense that the civilians would populate ‘garden worlds’ and live in harmony with their surroundings. The overall level of technology (at least non-military) is intended to be incredibly advanced and capable of providing for a society where one can choose to be a painter, doctor, or shopkeeper with no concerns about financial stability or the risk of poverty. There are no real classes economically speaking, though of course you will have those richer than others, everyone lives loves of comfort, provided for by an incredibly advanced and forgiving infrastructure. Again, not going to go too much into this because it will be background stuff that the party will not likely approach. Any direct questions will be met with the typically 4th wall answer of “I’m not a scientist/engineer from tens of thousands of years into the utopian future, don’t ask me” or even “You don’t ask where magic came from, so don’t ask about this, be thankful you aren’t pulling a plough.”
Point of note: The last species the empire fought were a sapient Ursine species, randomly rolled for using old style traveller rules (or something like that, this idea has been in my little black book for 10 years so I can’t really remember).

What level of tech were the clones given?

The clones were easy to appease (ooc). They have access to the same technologies as the rest of the civilian population and can live lives of equal comfort. However not previously having such luxuries, many turn to manual labour or even continue training regimens. As a part of their education, they are told that their natural abilities coupled with their training would naturally veer towards violence, it’s the very reason they exist. The clones aren’t drones, and are (even were during the war) encouraged to expand their knowledge and improve their intellect just as they would their skills and bodies. Many are genetically capable of having IQ’s well above average with significant reasoning power. As a result they understand the ramifications of their abilities and training, and its effects on a peaceful life. Those who wish to live in near opulent comfort do so easily, those who lean towards restlessness turn to manual labour in order to work out their energy. Those who feel that they just want to continue fighting do just that. Often in organised tournaments of skill and prowess. They are given the chance to live lives of uninterrupted luxury for their part in securing the future of the empire. Their intellect and reasoning ability also help to maintain their understanding of the need for segregation from the civilian population. Policing is done internally for the clones, as any crimes can and probably would be violent in nature, but having previously lived lives of heavily regimented duty, such things are seen as dishonourable, bordering the taboo.

Now onto the subject of where the hammer falls, regarding co-governance of the two factions, and their relationship with each other.

Nowhereman, I love that idea of a 3rd (aristocratic) faction. The idea of a small group of benign elites ‘playing god’ with the galaxy just somehow seems right, especially given the naturally dark undertones of such a society. In truth, I was going to have the two faction separated entirely, with the highest level of government being a benign A.I. as the secret immortal ruler of the empire. Still may do that but the 3rd faction idea opens up another options; namely the logistical control between the two factions during times of war (and peace). With almost no contact between the military and civilian factions of the empire, how were logistics managed? How did supplies, food, weapons, etc reach the front? I was going to go with automation for the military manufacturing, having civilians oversee the operation in communicative cells. This way they don’t see the entirety of what they are building (although they probably know what it is they are making) with the final stages being fully automated. The same would go for military R&D, the relevant scientists would operate in communicative cells that would take on particular projects such as “Scientist group A: Charged with developing a defence against R111 theta type particles (random example)” and “Scientist group B: Charged with developing a method of projecting R111 theta type particles”. Weapons and defence research that is in the end automated to achieve the final product. Heck with a benign A.I. the entire research, development, and manufacturing of military tech could probably easily be fully automated anyway. However now I am playing with the idea of either a sub-caste of the aristocracy that focuses on the execution of logistics. A small elite, assisted by advanced A.I.s that both rule the empire from on high, and manage the logistics. Perhaps instead of being immortal, simply being incredibly long lived. Earning their stripes on the execution of logistics and moving up to the management of. So many possibilities in there… nice.

Finally, what type of empire is it?

Well, I think it’s pretty obvious from above, that the empire will be internally benign yet externally xenophobic and ruthless in the extreme. A non-imperialistic, non-expansionist empire that simply sought the extermination of any species that wasn’t human. Lovely thought really eh?

EDIT: Formatting fixes, to make it easier to read.

F1zban
2015-06-17, 10:31 AM
Additionally, I think the immortal (or near immortal) 3rd faction of aristocracy would inevitably dictate an aspect of the campaign. What reason would such people have for:

1. Keeping the military and civilian populations separate, with the intention of keeping the civilian population in a utopian state of non-violence.

2. Enact a campaign of non-expansionist genocide against the other intelligent species of the galaxy.

3. Maintain a geographically small empire (in galactic measurements at least) when there would be literally thousands of available and habitable planets (drake equation).

4. Exist in a world of abstract separation from the empire and the rest of the galaxy.

The answer is frighteningly simple. They are preparing for a forced reset of the galaxy, in preparation for the next 'game'. (using Nowhereman's Civilisation example).

Thoughts?

Segev
2015-06-17, 10:34 AM
What happens when Bobby Goldhoarder decides that he doesn't WANT to let his financial crimes be discovered, so he kills the person who was investigating them and frames him for any of the records that already might point to him?

What happens when the correctional officers come to tell Bobby he has to appear before the judge, and Bobby says, "No, I don't want to?" Worse, when Bobby then informs the officers that, if they persist in nagging him about it, he will use his position to change their living assignments to 1-bedroom dormatories where their whole family will have to share the same room. What happens when Jane Pendhaus decides that, despite her work being slipshod and her re-assignment to a lower-quality home and less prestigious job, she isn't moving, and will use hacking and even physical vandalism to keep hold of her living space?

Reltzik
2015-06-17, 11:59 AM
Two questions. I can ask more than two, but I'll start at two.

First, we are told that a ship traveling under (in? through?) slip space is immune from damage from real space. What happens to the ship if someone deliberately flies it through a planet? What happens to the planet? A star? I ask because your players WILL think this is a good idea at some point.

Second, what is to stop a criminal organization / corporate enterprise / religious cult / whatever from colonizing one of those pristine, unmonitored planets in secret and setting up a society and eventual nation that the Empire will not monitor or even detect for centuries? Why hasn't this happened yet?

... I maintain that is two questions rather than seven. Because I count funny.

Elbeyon
2015-06-17, 12:14 PM
What happens when Bobby Goldhoarder decides that he doesn't WANT to let his financial crimes be discovered, so he kills the person who was investigating them and frames him for any of the records that already might point to him?

What happens when the correctional officers come to tell Bobby he has to appear before the judge, and Bobby says, "No, I don't want to?" Worse, when Bobby then informs the officers that, if they persist in nagging him about it, he will use his position to change their living assignments to 1-bedroom dormatories where their whole family will have to share the same room. What happens when Jane Pendhaus decides that, despite her work being slipshod and her re-assignment to a lower-quality home and less prestigious job, she isn't moving, and will use hacking and even physical vandalism to keep hold of her living space?I think the answer is that these civilians aren't humans in the way we think about them. They have a different brain configuration that makes them near incapable of violence. It'd be like asking a car constructing robot why it doesn't play the drums. Hopefully, that's not wrong. :smalleek:

Segev
2015-06-17, 12:49 PM
I think the answer is that these civilians aren't humans in the way we think about them. They have a different brain configuration that makes them near incapable of violence. It'd be like asking a car constructing robot why it doesn't play the drums. Hopefully, that's not wrong. :smalleek:

Once you step into that territory, such that you have near-automatons restricted from even considering actions that are behaviors natural to malign, self-interested humans, you really stop telling stories about, well, people. To recover that, you have to establish really, really complex and detailed rules of their existence.

I once tried this with orcs; I had an interesting design on their nature, needs, and drives, but it still felt a bit stilted to me, relying on "magic" to explain at least part of it. (I was trying specifically to construct a people who would have as their optimum the local optimum that some humans establish when they ignore the "enlightened" part of self-interest: the me-centric abuse of all who are weaker and a way that that would actively make the whole society stronger. It centered around an idea that there were ever-increasing returns on how much work and productivity one could get out of a better-fed, more-resources-consuming orc, such that the biggest and strongest taking the most is the most efficient use of resources, and results in more resources in the long term so that the smaller and weaker ALSO ultimately keep getting bigger and stronger and more productive.)

F1zban
2015-06-17, 01:00 PM
@Reltzik

The ship is removed from our space time whilst in transit. Nothing happens to it or the planet/star. My players are already familiar with this concept from a previous sci-fi game.

Nothing is stopping that from happening, absolutely nothing.

@Elbeyon & Segev

It's not that the civilians are not human, it's just that they have had thousands, if not tens of thousands of years of lasting peace (from their perspective). We as a species are warlike because we have always had war, without the need for violence, like ever, a different society and way of thinking would arise. This is where I am getting it from. Also I am not trying to maintain the civilian population as relatable humans. Quite the opposite.

Bobby doesn't do those things because he can't. Just because he is an erroneous figure in that society, doesn't engender others to be like him. he would be found and stopped. This is because the society as a whole is utopian.

NowhereMan583
2015-06-17, 01:40 PM
What happens when Bobby Goldhoarder decides that he doesn't WANT to let his financial crimes be discovered, so he kills the person who was investigating them and frames him for any of the records that already might point to him?

What happens when the correctional officers come to tell Bobby he has to appear before the judge, and Bobby says, "No, I don't want to?" Worse, when Bobby then informs the officers that, if they persist in nagging him about it, he will use his position to change their living assignments to 1-bedroom dormatories where their whole family will have to share the same room. What happens when Jane Pendhaus decides that, despite her work being slipshod and her re-assignment to a lower-quality home and less prestigious job, she isn't moving, and will use hacking and even physical vandalism to keep hold of her living space?

From what I understand of the setting OP describes, it's a matter of socialization.

If you go into a coffee shop and don't like the music, what stops you from bellowing a berzerker yell, climbing over the counter, strangling the barista, and putting a different CD in the stereo? Technically, it's something you can do, and can imagine doing, but you don't because you're not a violent psychopath. Dial that same social consciousness up to 11, and you have people behaving the way they do in the OP's setting.

Is it realistic to do things that way? How does that work? Eh... doesn't matter. Maybe there's something in the water, or maybe little imps whisper subliminal anti-violence messages into your ears while you sleep. OP seems willing to just handwave the matter; we can consider it one of the basic suspension-of-disbelief assumptions you make for the setting. After all, this is a society temporally distant from our own; who knows what kind of social control has been devised in the intervening millennia?

Elbeyon
2015-06-17, 01:44 PM
I get the impression that it is genetically. Violence just isn't in their genes (for the most part).

F1zban
2015-06-17, 01:55 PM
Genetics could be the answer, though epigenetic manipulation would probably be better, in order to weed out violence but preserve associated concepts like authority and ambition. Also, could be those imps lol. It is a handwave matter.

Segev
2015-06-17, 03:34 PM
Actually, what stops people from giving a berserker yell and demanding the music be changed is, on some level, the threat that they will be firmly removed form the shop if they try, possibly without too much regard for their physical comfort or well-being.

Which is not to say that all men are violent jerks held in check only by the threat of violence. It is, however, to say that there are such men, and they are not restrained by anything but their knowledge that they can push things only so far.

You will never truly have a society of 100% sheep; wolves will exist. Those wolves and sheep can get along splendidly as long as the sheep are willing to punish wolfish behavior and the wolves know it. They can also get along splendidly (from the wolves' perspective) if the sheep just roll over and take whatever the wolves dish out.

But I don't care how long you've been without violence; there will always be those who look at the lack thereof and think, "Hey, I'm willing to punch people to get what I want, and they won't fight back." It is a good society which can minimize this through upbringing, morals, and ethics, but there will always be those who need to be shown that it's in their short- and long-term best interests to restrain their worse impulses.

One only needs look at small children to see this. We have to train them, teach them that taking that which is not theirs is bad. That hitting just because you're mad or to make others do what you want is bad. This doesn't always take even in adolescence; think about bullies and their existence. Even when bullying is "zero tolerance," the bullies just find ways to make it look like their victims are the bullies when teachers show up, and weaponize the system against their victims.



Bobby totally CAN say, "I'm not going to cooperate with your commands to submit to punishment." He can also say, "In fact, if you don't do what I want, I'm going to hit you in the face with this sports-ball until you do."

The only thing that stops gangsters from doing that nowadays is the threat that the police will be called. And even then, it doesn't always, if they don't think the police will be effective in stopping them or punishing them.

It would take more than ten thousand years of peace to change this so much that the full society of lambs would exist to the point that NO wolves ever crop up. It would take something akin to the second coming of Christ and a change in all the souls of men to something not like that which we have now. (whether you believe in Christ or not, that's the level of miracle we're talking about here.)

F1zban
2015-06-17, 03:49 PM
I guess some of us just have a little more faith in the human condition. Ok, there are two solutions to this:

Genetic engineering is at a point where the genes, epigenes, or basic structure is modified to totally eliminate violence from each individual during the fetal stage. Thus making the very idea of violence simply non-existent. A screening process is used to determine if each individual would become savant (based on their genes) beforehand. If they show signs of being a savant, they are left alone until they are old enough to be 'recruited'. Otherwise everyone is a lamb, there are no wolves. The 'wolf' gene is destroyed.

Alternatively, the wolf may think that the lambs have no way of defending themselves, which is pretty naive. Bobby can say all the above, then he gets the shock stick (like in demolition man), if that doesn't work, he gets 20 shock sticks. Just because they are lambs doesn't mean they can't or won't protect themselves from such people.

Elbeyon
2015-06-17, 03:54 PM
during the fetal stage.Why start there? If the parent's genes have already been corrected than no work needs to be done before the child is even conceived. Screening for genetically defects makes sense though. I'm all on board with violence being a mechanical part of humans that have been removed in this story.

Surpriser
2015-06-17, 04:08 PM
There are several potential solutions to this problem:
1) Biological engineering: While "wolves" might appear in a normal population, a future society could well be able to remove the genetical (and also environmental) factors that enable such traits.
2) Intensive screening: Just like the tests for Savants (or even in the same tests), those children could be identified that might one day become troublemakers and they could be quietly removed from society ("Mr, Mrs Parent, we are proud to tell you that your son was chosen for a very special education")
3) Efficient secret police: Whenever such anomalies crop up, they are identified and eliminated in secret as soon as or even before they have an impact on their surroundings. After all, some civilians become "special forces" in the military, so it would be fitting to have some clones be removed from their caste to act as peacekeepers. Combine that with a very efficient media strategy and the population won't even notice that anything happened.

I also thought of a plausible idea for the aversion to expansion:
The population size of the aristocratic caste is very limited (and obviously, cloning while the original is still alive would be unthinkable), enforcing natural limits on the number of planets that can be managed. A strict population control policy in civilian regions is in effect to ensure a stable population.

Also, simply because many planets are uninhabited does not mean that they are not monitored. Any rebel or criminal base on such a planet would be quickly noticed and wiped out.

NowhereMan583
2015-06-17, 04:17 PM
.
2) Intensive screening: Just like the tests for Savants (or even in the same tests), those children could be identified that might one day become troublemakers and they could be quietly removed from society ("Mr, Mrs Parent, we are proud to tell you that your son was chosen for a very special education")

This could take the form of psychological testing at a young age... and anyone who makes red flags appear in the system is transferred to the military caste. OP describes the military as being "primarily" clones, but it could probably absorb some civilian malcontents.

F1zban
2015-06-17, 04:36 PM
I like the idea of sending potential troublemakers to the military, kinda makes sense. I also enjoy the idea of the efficient secret police. I think we'll hold those in reserve until the world fleshes out a bit more. Thanks for the input Nowhereman & Surpriser.

Also, that idea on population control is very interesting. Cuts away at the almost inevitably dystopian scenario I referred to earlier. Will likely go with one or the other, depending on what path the campaign takes as it develops.

At the moment though, the campaign idea stands at:

"Old soldiers, forced to fight a new war they didn't ask for" with a little bit of "Grandpa's still got it" thrown in to the mix.

Metahuman1
2015-06-17, 08:51 PM
I read this premise, and I'm reminded of the movie Forbidden Planet. Breeding violence out of people just isn't a thing that's gonna work. Humans are too hard wired for it, it's too much a necessity of were we came from in evolution, too much a part of the foundation of our development as a species. It wouldn't work.

Maglubiyet
2015-06-17, 09:05 PM
I read this premise, and I'm reminded of the movie Forbidden Planet. Breeding violence out of people just isn't a thing that's gonna work. Humans are too hard wired for it, it's too much a necessity of were we came from in evolution, too much a part of the foundation of our development as a species. It wouldn't work.

Maybe not (probably not, imho...I agree with you). But RPG's are an opportunity to play out "what if" scenarios.

IRL, human paladin organizations would probably have a very hard time maintaining LG status, monks couldn't learn to do a 20' standing long jump, and several dozen sentient species would not be able to coexist in one small nation. That doesn't mean it's not fun to imagine what could happen if it was really possible.

Metahuman1
2015-06-18, 01:24 AM
1: That's a different genera. The OP is going for Sci-Fi, and since he did not specify science fantasy or space opera or pulp, I have to assume realism is at least a partial design goal.

2: The only ways I could really see the designated thing ending is 1: The military types become a really, really, really good police force after some new training, and that doesn't work cause there should be no need for that in this society, or 2, the military types take over by force, and that's not cool since there'd be no real fight, or 3, The military types withdraw to there own area and the two sides keep to themselves and then its boring.

So, me thinks better to assume that Civilians are Civilians not cause violence has been bread out of them.

The argument that extensive training, equipment and maybe if setting allows any of the following: Genetic manipulation, Enhancements, and/or Cybernetic augmentations are making the military personal vastly better equipped to use violence, and now do the police force thing, THAT could fly though.

Segev
2015-06-18, 10:15 AM
Alternatively, the wolf may think that the lambs have no way of defending themselves, which is pretty naive. Bobby can say all the above, then he gets the shock stick (like in demolition man), if that doesn't work, he gets 20 shock sticks. Just because they are lambs doesn't mean they can't or won't protect themselves from such people.

This would work, but that's not "non-violent." It's not bloody, but "violence" encompases any use of aggressive force to constrain others' actions or choices.


It's not a lack of faith in the human condition. It's acknowledgement that it requires a level of love for one's fellow man that is characterized by the highest of Christian ideals to be in the hearts of literally everybody for that kind of true, violence-free utopia to exist.

Iterated prisoners' dilemma games played by very simple A.I.s in a group will evolve strategies that deal in violence, but restrain it until another does violence to them.

It's amazing how much genetic algorithms and swarm intelligence algorithms reveal in their evolution about they whys of human nature.

F1zban
2015-06-18, 11:51 AM
Ok, so humans are naturally violent, with no hope of true pacifism regardless of exterior forces. So how about we all say it's space magic, or a subtle lie, or whatever justification you feel most comfortable with. I think we've explored this issue pretty extensively and discovered that some people can accept such a society can exist, others can't. Shall we explore other aspects of the world?

Segev
2015-06-18, 01:23 PM
Ok, so humans are naturally violent, with no hope of true pacifism regardless of exterior forces.Not what I said. There are people who are true pacifists. There are societies where the norm is gentility and nothing more violent than a shouting match. However, there are exceptions in those societies, because there will always be men who feel that "punch that guy and take his stuff" is acceptable behavior as long as nobody stops them. It is the absolute nature of the claim that bothers me.


So how about we all say it's space magic, or a subtle lie, or whatever justification you feel most comfortable with.Not necessary, with your introduction of the "shock prod" and people charged with using it to wrangle those who misbehave.


I think we've explored this issue pretty extensively and discovered that some people can accept such a society can exist, others can't. Shall we explore other aspects of the world?

Sure. It's just important to know how your world handles these things, because it will inform how the world reacts to the PCs.

Maglubiyet
2015-06-18, 02:22 PM
Given the level of compartmentalization, why do they even need to de-commission the military? If they run out of enemies, the powers-that-be could just orchestrate it so that the soldiers fight each other. Keep the factories and clone vats churning, so as not to impact the economies of the various worlds involved in wartime production. No worries about peacetime soldiers going rogue either.

The size of the Empire could work in its favor. There are bound to be regional differences in appearance and training. Knowing they're headed in this direction, the Elites could push the differences even further and mandate changes in uniforms, training, weaponry, etc. decades in advance. As far as the troops on the ground are concerned, they're just fighting more breakaway human colonies.

Maybe some of the soldiers at higher clearance levels with a broader perspective on the conflict start piecing it together. "Hmm, the insurgents' tactics are remarkably similar to the Spinward Brigades. It's almost as if they studied the works of Colonel Tzamov."

F1zban
2015-06-18, 02:56 PM
Nice idea. Though after this conversation I have an idea for the campaign that will put the soldiers to use pretty soon into it.