Haley DOES have a heart

[Legendary]

I remember all those people yesterday, saying that Haley's only concern was mad and that she'd be angry at Roy for dying so she'd have to waste diamonds on him. Yet, her reaction seems to be far more reasonable than Durkon's, who everyone thought would be crushed.


Because I have the maturity of an 8-year old, I must say:

SO THERE! :smalltongue:

[NeonRonin]

I'll say it now, I take back every cynical thing I said about Haley's reaction to Roy's demise. Shoulda known better... that greed of hers really is only skin-deep when you get down to it. I wish her all the best in the forthcoming ordeals.

[Jades]

As I would love to say "Told ya!" but I'm much more mature than that.

Haley is greedy only to pay the ransom on her father. She loves her family and her friends, and she'll go to great lengths for them.

Ok, so I'm not that mature.

TOLD YA!

[Icewalker]

Haley is greedy only to pay the ransom on her father.

Not entirely...
In On the Origin of PCs, she says she is going to take a 10% cut in perpetuity of all future income of her father. She certainly is greedy, but not heartless. or mean or any such thing, just greedy also.

[mockingbyrd7]

Greedy is a character flaw, but someone is far from a heartless sinner just because they are selfish. Haley is greedy, but she has a heart of gold, and she is a very good example of a Chaotic Good character.

What disturbs me more is Durkon's response. I'm beginning to question whether he's Lawful Good or Lawful Neutral! I mean, he's all about honor and duty and code and that's that. I mean, he's basically SMILING saying, "Ah, yes, he's dead as a doornail! He was a good lad, but he died 'im a good death doin' his duty, so I'm HAPPY!" I thought this was really... insensitive of him. He was actually acting pretty amoral. I'm kinda disappointed in our resident dwarf.

(Sorry for going off topic.)

[Icewalker]

Nah, in his dwarven culture, dying a good death is a very happy thing. Also, nobody in a dnd world is as sensitive to death because of the whole resurrection dealy.

[Studoku]

What disturbs me more is Durkon's response. I'm beginning to question whether he's Lawful Good or Lawful Neutral! I mean, he's all about honor and duty and code and that's that. I mean, he's basically SMILING saying, "Ah, yes, he's dead as a doornail! He was a good lad, but he died 'im a good death doin' his duty, so I'm HAPPY!" I thought this was really... insensitive of him. He was actually acting pretty amoral. I'm kinda disappointed in our resident dwarf.

I thought he was lawful good/ lawful neutral since the 'being a dwarf isn't about being happy- it's about doing your duty' speech.

[Albion]

OP: I never doubted it, how could one? :smallconfused: Haley's a very nice lass with a heart of gold. Not literally, in that case she would've had a heart transplant from some half-orc or whatever and sold her own.

(Picturing it) :smallbiggrin:
She just hides her sensitive side and does it well cause she has a lot of that feisty side or whatever as well

[ShiningTed]

What disturbs me more is Durkon's response. I'm beginning to question whether he's Lawful Good or Lawful Neutral! I mean, he's all about honor and duty and code and that's that. I mean, he's basically SMILING saying, "Ah, yes, he's dead as a doornail! He was a good lad, but he died 'im a good death doin' his duty, so I'm HAPPY!" I thought this was really... insensitive of him. He was actually acting pretty amoral. I'm kinda disappointed in our resident dwarf.I was a li'l surprised my Durkon's reaction, but even in real life, an heroic death is a rare gift. Everybody's gotta go somehow: a death that has meaning, on your own terms (but not a loony suicide thing - you know what I mean...) well thats a great way to go.

[Atheist_Cleric]

For those complaining that "A heroic death" isnt a good enough reason for Durkon's stoic reaction, I say this. Recently in the campaing I am playing in, my character died. It was at the end of a large random encounter, and one of my team-mates (a neutral evil evoker, I was a chaotic good cleric) Launched a fireball spell into the melee between me and the last two enemies. Now we are all fairly high level, and I was low on hp, as we play second edition and clerics arn't terrific melee fighters. The fireball took me to around -35hp. I have to start a new character because my old one was literally turned to ash. Anyway, the point is, THAT is not a good death. And my team-mate (and killer)'s first reaction was to salvage my magical items and money.

Trust me, Durkon could have had a much worse reaction, with worse reasons.

[UglyPanda]

Durkon's views on life and death are bizarre to say the very least. He doesn't care that he'll die before returning to the Dwarven homelands, he's just happy he'll be buried in a place of honor. Durkon is an extreme traditionalist and is willing to give up his own happiness to maintain said traditions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html)

[the_tick_rules]

she's greedy, not heartless.

[Aramis_fan^^]

I guessed Hayley would be like that bless her I mean she can be oh whats the word? I'll put sensitive but that might not be it. I mean she cried her eyes out when she thought Elan might hate her. Her friends matter to her so I don't see why she wouldn't have cried.

Awww the crying makes me feel for her speshly as she has to be the leader as well.

[Gitman00]

For those complaining that "A heroic death" isnt a good enough reason for Durkon's stoic reaction, I say this. Recently in the campaing I am playing in, my character died. It was at the end of a large random encounter, and one of my team-mates (a neutral evil evoker, I was a chaotic good cleric) Launched a fireball spell into the melee between me and the last two enemies. Now we are all fairly high level, and I was low on hp, as we play second edition and clerics arn't terrific melee fighters. The fireball took me to around -35hp. I have to start a new character because my old one was literally turned to ash. Anyway, the point is, THAT is not a good death. And my team-mate (and killer)'s first reaction was to salvage my magical items and money.

Trust me, Durkon could have had a much worse reaction, with worse reasons.

Yeah, there are good deaths and bad deaths. I think I'd classify Roy in the former group.

I was just thinking of a campaign where the party was fighting an ancient white dragon in its lair. The party's barbarian jumped on the dragon's back and positioned his sword so the point was directed into the dragon's neck. When the dragon slammed into the ceiling to dislodge the barbarian, said barbarian was crushed to a pulp, but the sword was driven into the dragon's spinal cord, killing both of them instantly. It was unanimously agreed not to have the barbarian resurrected, since he couldn't ask for a better death.

Contrast this to a campaign where I was a first-level cleric, had this great character with an awesome backstory, and died rolling a natural one while trying to swing across a chasm with a rope and grappling hook. My replacement character is currently a paladin on a quest to have the cleric resurrected. :smallbiggrin:

[Closet_Skeleton]

Durkon showed himself to be a good cleric of Thor.

Death is just a promotion to the army of the gods.

[Felius]

Durkon's views on life and death are bizarre to say the very least. He doesn't care that he'll die before returning to the Dwarven homelands, he's just happy he'll be buried in a place of honor. Durkon is an extreme traditionalist and is willing to give up his own happiness to maintain said traditions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html)


And also, there is the point, as in the gospel of Belkar: "Look, last time I checked the cleric spell list, Raise Dead was a 5th level spell. Durkon can cast it like 3-4 times a day. And he'd do it, too, because he's a sucker. I mean, he just healed up me for free."

[oball]

For those complaining that "A heroic death" isnt a good enough reason for Durkon's stoic reaction, I say this. Recently in the campaing I am playing in, my character died. It was at the end of a large random encounter, and one of my team-mates (a neutral evil evoker, I was a chaotic good cleric) Launched a fireball spell into the melee between me and the last two enemies. Now we are all fairly high level, and I was low on hp, as we play second edition and clerics arn't terrific melee fighters. The fireball took me to around -35hp. I have to start a new character because my old one was literally turned to ash. Anyway, the point is, THAT is not a good death. And my team-mate (and killer)'s first reaction was to salvage my magical items and money.

Trust me, Durkon could have had a much worse reaction, with worse reasons.

Is your team-mate perchance Kyros of Irregular Webcomic! (http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/189.html) fame?

[Albion]

I guessed Hayley would be like that bless her I mean she can be oh whats the word? I'll put sensitive but that might not be it. I mean she cried her eyes out when she thought Elan might hate her. Her friends matter to her so I don't see why she wouldn't have cried.


Empathic? Fragile? Vulnerable? Sentimental?

[Uthrac]

Durkon had a similar reaction when he learned of his own future from the oracle.

'nuf said

[Silverlocke980]

Durkon is... calm. Really, really calm. That's part of what makes him a good member of the team- he's a balance to Belkar's craziness, Haley's greed, Elan's stupidity, and Roy's anger.

(V doesn't have any real emotional problems. Go elf!)

Also, he tends to look at things differently than others do. Seeing Roy as being dead is tragic; seeing Roy dying doing what he wanted is a different matter entirely. To Durkon, Roy's death is not wasted.

And Haley has always had a heart. It just has a wish to be perpetually bathed in gold.

[Megalomaniac2]

Yeah, that's Durkon for you. Stays in the background for a few dozen comics, then pops out and proves himself the most twisted member of the Order. I think he's got a milder form of whatever Miko has.

[TheAlmightyOne]

I just think that the latest comic shows how Rich has created sub-text and very well developed characters for a stick comic.

[Black_Light83]

well actually i would say durkin will miss him more he's just alot more matured that haley and takes solice in his death that he died honorably

SO THERE!!! :tongue:

[Abacab]

Of course she has a heart, some people just don't notice it. Haley's CG, so she must have some compassion and courtesy, because otherwise, she would most likely be evil or neutral.

Her major flaw is her greed. It shows up so many times in the comics. Part of the greed she retains is because she needs to save her father, and part of it is just...natural, I assume. It's a bad and selfish thing to feel but...

There's been several times where she's been kind. The dirt farmers, umm... she was nice to the dirt farmers...and...that's all I can think of...(I'm sure somebody can add something)

She could do evil acts. She could steal every second she's breathing, and kill innocent people. Or Haley could try to invade the world. And then, she would not have a heart.

[Calamity]

Durkon is... calm. Really, really calm. That's part of what makes him a good member of the team- he's a balance to Belkar's craziness, Haley's greed, Elan's stupidity, and Roy's anger.

(V doesn't have any real emotional problems. Go elf!)


Actually you forgot V's arrogance. (Though it is not always misplaced)

[Nevrmore]

I think Durkon and Haley's reactions were both completely appropriate. Durkon has before expressed joyous refrain when he found out he would return to his homeland posthumously, which implies he would receive an honorable death. He is simply happy that if Roy had to die, he died fighting and fighting for a just cause, which is exceptionally honorable.

[Shott]

Haley, and all of the OotS, did pass the test of heart after all.

But seriously, I agree. Haley is a good person despite that she's greedy.

[TheAlmightyOne]

Haley obviously has a heart. I think your all forgetting her feelings for Elan. Are evil, heartless people this compassionate about others?

[SPoD]

I think the whole point for Durkon is that he's not a human; he doesn't have human reactions to things, and if we expect him to act like we would, we're putting our image of what is the "right" way to react onto his nonhuman psychology. For a good, proper dwarf, he had the right reaction.

I think we're all so used to dwarves and elves being treated as humans in funny suits that we've lost the ability to recognize that they might have a wildly different set of priorities.

[Abacab]

Haley, and all of the OotS, did pass the test of heart after all.

The "Test of Heart" was really a test to see if your heart was healthy. She could obviously pass that.

[Gitman00]

I think the whole point for Durkon is that he's not a human; he doesn't have human reactions to things, and if we expect him to act like we would, we're putting our image of what is the "right" way to react onto his nonhuman psychology. For a good, proper dwarf, he had the right reaction.

I think we're all so used to dwarves and elves being treated as humans in funny suits that we've lost the ability to recognize that they might have a wildly different set of priorities.

That's a very astute observation. They're called "races," and some of them are genetically compatible, but it's far less like the difference between a black person and a white person than it is like the difference between a horse and a donkey (odd analogy, I know, but still). They're actually different species. Since there isn't another species IRL with intellect/sentience to rival a human's, there's no way for us to know how another intelligent species would react to a given situation.

[TiamatRoar]

The "Test of Heart" was really a test to see if your heart was healthy. She could obviously pass that.

Ergo the title of this thread.


That's a very astute observation. They're called "races," and some of them are genetically compatible, but it's far less like the difference between a black person and a white person than it is like the difference between a horse and a donkey (odd analogy, I know, but still). They're actually different species. Since there isn't another species IRL with intellect/sentience to rival a human's, there's no way for us to know how another intelligent species would react to a given situation.

Different species can't mate with each other, while I'm pretty sure there are such things as half elves, half orcs, and halve dwarves, aren't there?

[mikeejimbo]

(V doesn't have any real emotional problems. Go elf!)

One could argue that this, in itself, is the problem. :smalltongue:

Also, I think Durkon's reaction served to show the difference between dwarfs and humans. I don't think it's odd or unreasonable at all. I really liked his wisdom to Haley.

[Gaelbert]

OP: I never doubted it, how could one? :smallconfused: Haley's a very nice lass with a heart of gold. Not literally, in that case she would've had a heart transplant from some half-orc or whatever and sold her own.

And Belkar would have forcibly "harvested" it by now.

[Snake-Aes]

Honor matters more than anything else for the typical dwarf, specially if it honor with the clan, family, and society. Durkon's PoV is perfectly valid, I think. Even becausedeath is almost mundane after a sufficiently high level.

[Sammi_Somara]

Of course Haley has a heart. Who ever doubted it?

[Gitman00]

Different species can't mate with each other, while I'm pretty sure there are such things as half elves, half orcs, and halve dwarves, aren't there?

Certain different species can indeed mate. Horses can breed with donkeys, producing mules. Lions can mate with tigers, producing Tions and Ligers.

The offspring produced by interspecies breeding is usually sterile, however. And there are no half-dwarves, or at least not in any core books. Humans appear to be the most fecund species in the DnD universe, since they're the ones that usually produce the half-whatevers.

[korath]

Launched a fireball spell into the melee between me and the last two enemies. Now we are all fairly high level, and I was low on hp, as we play second edition and clerics arn't terrific melee fighters. The fireball took me to around -35hp. I have to start a new character because my old one was literally turned to ash. Anyway, the point is, THAT is not a good death. And my team-mate (and killer)'s first reaction was to salvage my magical items and money.


How much of THAT survived the explosion? IF You were reduced to -35, you gear would ahve been hit, as well. Gold may have melted, wooden weapons burnt and charred. Cloth and paper become Ash, too.:smallsigh:

[see]

Cross-species hybrids in mammals are reasonably common, and a significant number are even fertile. Coyotes, jackals, and dog/wolf/dingo hybrids are all possible and usually fertile. Polar and grizzly/Kodiak/brown bears cross with fertile offspring. Bison-cattle hybrids ("beefalo") are fertile, as are female dzos (yak-cattle hybrids) and zubron (wisent-cattle). Fertile female mules and hinnys are documented, albeit rare. The Savannah Cat is a hybrid of the serval and a domestic cat; the females are fertile. The false killer whale and the dolphin have fertile offspring, too.

(And yes, this probably violates what you were taught in grade schools about the definition of species. Real biology is a lot more complicated than what they teach in grade school.)

So, even before we invoke magic, it's reasonably plausible that humans, elves, dwarves, and orcs can all be what real-world biologists would call different species and still be interfertile.