Low-Level Anti-Caster Monk: Does my build work?

[orcafromthesky]

Hey guys! I'm new to these forums, so I apologize if something like this has been posted before.

I wanted to see if I could build a halfway decent anti-caster pure melee combatant under level 10. I decided to focus on monk because I like the flavor, and I wanted to see if I could make it work. Here's what I came up with.

Non-Core Resources used: PHB2, Complete Arcane, Complete Adventurer, Unearthed Arcana, Expanded Psionics Handbook (for a non-psionic feat), Eberron Campaign Setting, Magic Item Compendium, Dragon Compendium, Dragon Magazine #310 & #340.

The build focuses on shutting down defensive casting, controlling your opponents movement, and making high damage attacks of opportunity (also having high saves and a high touch AC). I built it specifically with flying combat in mind (thus, no improved trip). The build uses the Duom (Dragon Compendium pg. 112), and relies on the Duom being a martial weapon (versus an exotic one, which it was in previous publications).

RACE: Human, Level 9
7 levels of Martial Monk (Dragon Mag. 310, pg. 45)
2 levels of Human Paragon (Unearthed Arcana, pg. 43)

STATS: (25 pt. buy)
STR: 14
DEX: 16
CON: 13
INT: 10 (necessary to reach Occult Opportunist skill req by level 3)
WIS: 14
CHA: 8

WEAPON: Duom with Magebane Enchantment (the Duom is a reach weapon that lets you threaten squares adjacent to you)

FEAT/ABILITY PROGRESSION:

LEVEL 1: (Martial Monk 1)
Improved Unarmed Strike (monk class feature)
Decisive Strike (FoB alternative, PHB2 pg. 51)
Combat Reflexes (martial monk bonus feat)
Deft Opportunist (Complete Adventurer pg. 106)
Stand Still (Expanded Psionics Handbook pg. 51)

LEVEL 2: (Martial Monk 2)
Monastic Training: Human Paragon (monk alt. bonus feat, Eberron Campaign Setting pg. 38)
Evasion (monk class feature)

LEVEL 3: (Martial Monk 2/Human Paragon 1) Human Paragon fulfills skill req. for Occult Opportunist
Adaptive Learning: Spellcraft (human paragon class feature)
Martial Weapon Proficiency: Duom (human paragon bonus proficiency)
Occult Opportunist (Dragon Mag. 340, pg. 87)

LEVEL 4-5: (Martial Monk 4/Human Paragon 1) Ability boost +Dex
Still Mind, Ki Strike (magic), slow fall (monk class features)

LEVEL 6: (Martial Monk 4/Human Paragon 2)
Mage Slayer
Pierce Magical Protection (human paragon bonus feat)

LEVEL 7:(Martial Monk 5/Human Paragon 2)
Purity of Body (monk class feature)

LEVEL 8: (Martial Monk 6/Human Paragon 2) Ability boost +Dex
Blind-Fight (martial monk bonus feat)

LEVEL 9:(Martial Monk 7/Human Paragon 2)
Pierce Magical Concealment

Here's how I'm hoping the character would work: get adjacent to the spellcaster, shut down magical armor (Pierce Magical Protection), and Decisive Strike every round (I'm assuming it's still possible to do this with an unarmed strike while wielding the 2-handed Duom due to the wording on attacks of opportunity here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041102a): "Likewise, a monk can attack with just about any part of her body and still threatens an area when she doesn't have her hands free"). The spellcaster can't defensive cast (Mage Slayer). If the spellcaster tries a quickened/swift spell, AoO (Occult Opportunist). If the caster tries to run, AoO and stop them (Stand Still). If you land a Decisive Strike on your own turn, all your attacks of opportunity deal double damage (with a basic magebane duom, this would end up being 2D8+4D6+6, if my math is right).

So, what do you think? Would it work? I'm not exactly an expert, so I'm sure I may have overlooked something.

[frogglesmash]

I don't know about your build, but I do appreciate that you have brought occult opportunistic to my attention. I've been wanting to make a lockdown build for a while and it irritated me that there was no way to get AoOs on spells cast as a swift action.

[graeylin]

Don't forget weapon proficiency unarmed strike, unless you are okay with the penalties.

You'll need that feat (or a houserule).

[Blackhawk748]

Seems ok if your playing in a T3 or T4 environment, i would get some flying though, as the mage may be floating in the air.


Don't forget weapon proficiency unarmed strike, unless you are okay with the penalties.

You'll need that feat (or a houserule).

While that may be RAW i have never seen a DM enforce it

[Ruethgar]

How do you address flight? By level 9, most casters can easily fly and avoid you.

Edit: Damn Ninja

[ComaVision]

I think a Wiz/Sorc Polymorphed would beat the tar out of this character, never mind everything else they can cast on you before you get up to them. Nerveskitter alone will give a better initiative bonus than you have. I don't see your build doing much damage.

[jiriku]

A lot will depend on your DM. If your DM gives you the kinds of opponents you're designed to defeat, you'll do well. But I see you having trouble with certain kinds of encounters:

(1) If the caster is flying, I don't see that you have a method of flight, or a method of preventing the caster from simply voluntarily falling out of your threat range.
(2) If the caster is invisible, you'll be unable to take opportunity attacks, and much of your lockdown won't function.
(3) If the caster is a powerful brute in its own right (druid in wild shape, ogre mage, dragon, giant shaman, etc), it may be fully capable of tearing you apart in melee combat.
(4) Depending on how much optimization your DM puts into building foes, your attack bonus may be somewhat low for the job. The build has to hit reliably to do its job.
(5) There are a lot of individual defensive spells that could shut you down (mirror image, ironguard, ghostform). If your DM hunts for ways to specifically counter your build, he's going to find them.

So I guess the answer to your question is "maybe". Ultimately, if your DM has significant system mastery and wants to challenge you, he'll have no trouble doing so. If he likes to use squishy caster opponents but tends to play them in straightforward and unsophisticated ways, you may do quite well and even dominate many encounters.

[Curmudgeon]

What's your protection against the spellcaster teleporting a short distance away, outside your threatened area? Abrupt Jaunt (Player's Handbook II, page 70) and several Magic Item Compendium items (like Anklet of Translocation, page 71) make this capability easily available to spellcasters without casting a spell.

By giving up Flurry of Blows for a single full-round attack you've deprived yourself of the easy way to wipe out a bunch of Mirror Images: just punch/kick them all.

I'd suggest going for Lawful Evil alignment so you can get some Feathered Wings grafted on (Fiend Folio, page 210). This graft lets you fly at 2x your land speed, and the Monk speed boost will help you exceed the flight speed of most casters.

[Flickerdart]

As with all melee lockdown builds, you run into the problem of "getting to the dude." If your encounters tend to begin in close proximity, then you're fine, probably. But against a spellcaster that's far away, you can't do much except run at him and hope you make it before he turns you into a newt. But if you're allowed to just walk up to a mid-op caster, almost anyone can beat him. You've invested your entire build into being good in a situation where you already have the upper hand, and have put no thought into what happens before that.

Your saves are not very good - a standard 9th level wizard with the Elite Array will have a DC of around 20 on his spells. You have saves of 6/8/9, meaning that at best you're passing 50% of the time, and a wizard isn't likely to target Will when seeing a frail guy in pajamas. You have no way to avoid eating at least one spell while you're running at him, possibly more. You would be well-served to buy a good +saves item - since you have 36kgp and a +1 magebane duom is only 8k and change, it would also be a good idea to itemize with various other protections.

But really, the biggest problem with this build is that aside from "stand next to a caster and plink for lousy damage" you have nothing. Attempting to fight a regular monster with your arsenal will kill you pretty much immediately. As a melee combatant, especially one that depends on reach, you need reach increases or size increases so you can keep nasties away from you while also being able to do your thing against wizards.

Also, bonus damage dice do not multiply. Only weapon dice and flat modifiers do.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You may be able to get a decent chance of beating a given wizard with a given spell loadout, but you won't get a good average across multiple days fighting (because the wizard will prepare spells to counter you), or multiple different wizards (because the difference between spell loadouts is too big to counter with one pure martial build). That's assuming your wizardly opponent didn't use divinations to find out about you (which will almost certainly enable them to prepare specific counters), doesn't have some spontaneous casting ability (uncanny forethought and such, which you cannot counter at all), and doesn't have (semi-)permanent summons, buffs, allies and equipment that could beat you even without casting during the fight itself.

In short, you're only good at preventing spellcasting, and then only in melee range. That's not enough to counter a wizard's entire suite of tricks. It's not a flaw in your build so much as a part of 3.5's design. I doubt you'll be able to make a truly threatening anti-caster monk at any level past, say, 4.


For a low-level countermagic build, maybe try this, or pick it up as cohort at a slightly higher level:

Cloistered Cleric 4/Church Inquisitor 1/Paragnostic Apostle 1
Spontaneous domain casting (Magic domain)
Abilities: 13+ wisdom (to cast dispel magic), 14+ charisma (to have 5 turn attempts)
Domains: Inquisition (bonus, from Church Inquisitor), Knowledge, Magic, Purification
Feats: Divine Defiance, Domain Focus (Magic), Versatile Spellcaster
Items: dispelling cord (1000 gp)
Caster level 6, +1 for abjurations (Purification domain), +1 for Magic domain spells (Domain Focus)
+5 on dispel checks (+4 Inquisition domain, +1 Penetrating Insight, from Paragnostic Apostle)
+2 on dispel checks 5/day from dispelling cord

With one turn undead use, you can counterspell as an immediate action, burning any prepared spell(s) to spontaneously cast dispel magic. With Versatile Spellcaster, you have at least 5 third-level spells per day. Your bonus on dispel checks is +15, 5/day, and +13 after that (but you're out of spells anyway). At level 6, nothing magical is going to get past you for a long time.

You can not only counterspell, with that dispel magic that you've pumped so nicely, but you can also strip buffs using the same spell.

[Karl Aegis]

More ACFs! I need more!

[SinsI]

Here's how I'm hoping the character would work: get adjacent to the spellcaster...
Whoa, hold your horses!
How exactly do you get adjacent to the spellcaster? Hell, how do you even detect the spellcaster (and how do you know that he is a spellcaster)?

He is Improved Invisible and Flying 40 feet above ground, and the ground is covered by a layer of Solid Fog (if not Stinking Cloud), plus he probably has Blur and Mirror Image... And the "spellcaster" you are trying to attack is an Illusion projected over a huge pit trap.

[jiriku]

Whoa, hold your horses!
How exactly do you get adjacent to the spellcaster? Hell, how do you even detect the spellcaster (and how do you know that he is a spellcaster)?

He is Improved Invisible and Flying 40 feet above ground, and the ground is covered by a layer of Solid Fog (if not Stinking Cloud), plus he probably has Blur and Mirror Image... And the "spellcaster" you are trying to attack is an Illusion projected over a huge pit trap.

Now now. His job is hard enough without you assuming that his enemy has had time to cast 3 or more short-duration spells before he even gets to take an action. :smalltongue:

[Deadline]

You need a reliable way to beat a spellcaster on initiative and deal with common caster defenses (Flight, Mirror Image, Miss Chance, and Tactical Teleportation). This is generally a practical level to get to, as most casters should probably be using said defenses if they expect to live very long.

THEN you need to figure out what to do if the spellcaster just decides to say "screw it" to his defenses and instead polymorphs into a Hydra to tear you into pieces. Or decides to shut you down with one of the various "no save, no attack roll, just suck" spells.

That said, if we aren't talking about optimized casters and they aren't using optimal tactics, then your party fighter can probably beat them to death, so you may not need to be quite so focused with your build. However, if we're talking half-casters or the like, then you've probably got all you need to shut them down.

I may have missed it, but do you have some way of preventing them from using the Withdraw action to just move away from you without provoking AoOs?

[(Un)Inspired]

Now now. His job is hard enough without you assuming that his enemy has had time to cast 3 or more short-duration spells before he even gets to take an action. :smalltongue:

Why can't we assume that? With divinations and celerity I think we can grant the caster a lot more spells up that just 3.

[orcafromthesky]

Woah, lots of responses. Let's see if I can address your questions:


Don't forget weapon proficiency unarmed strike, unless you are okay with the penalties.

I'm a monk. And unarmed strike counts as a simple weapon (per the PHB). Even if unarmed strike isn't specifically listed under the monk base class, human paragon is proficient with all simple weapons.


Seems ok if your playing in a T3 or T4 environment, i would get some flying though, as the mage may be floating in the air.


How do you address flight? By level 9, most casters can easily fly and avoid you.


Whoa, hold your horses!
How exactly do you get adjacent to the spellcaster? Hell, how do you even detect the spellcaster (and how do you know that he is a spellcaster)?

He is Improved Invisible and Flying 40 feet above ground...

Sorry, I thought it would be assumed that I'd be flying when I said "I built it specifically with flying combat in mind." I was working under the assumption that I've got some sort of item that gives me flying (winged boots, etc.) Also, Scout's Headband would take care of the invisiblity bit. Once I see him, if I get close, pierce magical concealment takes care of the rest (right?)


(1) If the caster is flying, I don't see that you have a method of flight, or a method of preventing the caster from simply voluntarily falling out of your threat range.

Does Stand Still not prevent this? I hadn't thought of just "falling out of threat range".


I think a Wiz/Sorc Polymorphed would beat the tar out of this character...


(3) If the caster is a powerful brute in its own right (druid in wild shape, ogre mage, dragon, giant shaman, etc), it may be fully capable of tearing you apart in melee combat.

Yeah, this is a problem I didn't think about. Any suggestions?


(2) If the caster is invisible, you'll be unable to take opportunity attacks, and much of your lockdown won't function.

Doesn't Pierce Magical Concealment take care of this? If not, I can always get a Scout's Headband or something.


(4) Depending on how much optimization your DM puts into building foes, your attack bonus may be somewhat low for the job. The build has to hit reliably to do its job.

I mean, yeah. Here was my thinking: pierce magical protection dispels all their armor-adding spells, and then deft opportunist gives me that valuable +4 to all my attacks of opportunity. I thought that might cover the BAB discrepency.


By giving up Flurry of Blows for a single full-round attack you've deprived yourself of the easy way to wipe out a bunch of Mirror Images: just punch/kick them all.


(5) There are a lot of individual defensive spells that could shut you down (mirror image, ironguard, ghostform). If your DM hunts for ways to specifically counter your build, he's going to find them.

Mirror image is taken care of by pierce magical concealment. I'm not familiar with ironguard or ghostform. Do pierce magical protection and pierce magical concealment not work against them?


What's your protection against the spellcaster teleporting a short distance away, outside your threatened area? Abrupt Jaunt (Player's Handbook II, page 70) and several Magic Item Compendium items (like Anklet of Translocation, page 71) make this capability easily available to spellcasters without casting a spell.

Without casting a spell? Damn. Is there a feat that triggers an AoO on someone activating a magic item? If so, would that interrupt the teleportation?


Also, bonus damage dice do not multiply. Only weapon dice and flat modifiers do.

Ah! Didn't know that. So, AoO damage would end up being 2D8+2D6+6 (assuming, of course, that I have no other buffs/enchantments, etc.) On average, that's 20 damage, meaning an average concentration DC of 30+spell level. I feel like that's difficult to beat for a level 9ish caster. Am I being too optimistic?


You need a reliable way to beat a spellcaster on initiative and deal with common caster defenses (Flight, Mirror Image, Miss Chance, and Tactical Teleportation). This is generally a practical level to get to, as most casters should probably be using said defenses if they expect to live very long.

...

I may have missed it, but do you have some way of preventing them from using the Withdraw action to just move away from you without provoking AoOs?

Assume I've got an item that gives me flight. Mirror image/miss chance I believe are covered by pierce magical concealment. Can't I interrupt tactical teleportation with occult opportunist?

Also, withdraw is a full round action, meaning I'll be given the opportunity to move close and threaten AoO's again (and thus shut down the spellcasting).



I think that covers everything. Sounds to me like my biggest issues would be polymorph and teleporting magic items. A ring of blinking would help with the polymorph (I don't get a miss chance with that, with pierce magical concealment). Not sure about a solution for the teleport items, though.

[Curmudgeon]

Mirror image is taken care of by pierce magical concealment.
Are you going to be operating solo? Your ability to discern the right target doesn't help your team, but if you're going to be in melee with the spellcaster anyway you could (if you had Flurry of Blows) kick the imaginary stuffing out of the Mirror Images so your allies could aim correctly.

[nedz]

The trouble with builds like this is that there are always more options to cover than you have feats — casters are less limited.

I have played casters who didn't bother casting defensively — one just Tumbled away before casting and the other used the Conceal Spellcasting Skilltrick. Both would likely defeat your build, though the latter could possibly be countered by investing in Spot — and it only works once per encounter.

How would you cope with standard BC spells such as Web, Glitterdust, Entangle and the like ?

[orcafromthesky]

Are you going to be operating solo? Your ability to discern the right target doesn't help your team, but if you're going to be in melee with the spellcaster anyway you could (if you had Flurry of Blows) kick the imaginary stuffing out of the Mirror Images so your allies could aim correctly.

How about sticking a revelation crystal in my weapon? Wouldn't that be more effective, considering pierce magical concealment? I'd rather not lose Decisive Strike, because of how much it boosts my AoO damage (thus making it harder for my opponent to cast).


The trouble with builds like this is that there are always more options to cover than you have feats — casters are less limited.

I have played casters who didn't bother casting defensively — one just Tumbled away before casting and the other used the Conceal Spellcasting Skilltrick. Both would likely defeat your build, though the latter could possibly be countered by investing in Spot — and it only works once per encounter.

How would you cope with standard BC spells such as Web, Glitterdust, Entangle and the like ?

I thought about the possibility of tumbling. I was hoping that most spellcasters wouldn't invest a whole lot in tumble. If they do, I know there's a feat somewhere that makes the DC for tumbling through my threatened space a lot higher (I'd have to go look for it). That's part of the reason why I designed this guy to be such a lot level - so I would have room to customize later down the line, depending on what I came up against.

As for standard BC spells, that's why I went monk: for the good saves. I'm assuming I'll have to eat a few spells with this build, but I designed it to try and mitigate that possibility as much as possible.


I know it's not a perfect build, and that it won't work against every spellcaster. My hope, though, is to design a character that can shut down a powerful spellcaster long enough for my party to take care of them.

[Curmudgeon]

How about sticking a revelation crystal in my weapon? Wouldn't that be more effective, considering pierce magical concealment?
Revelation crystals don't address Mirror Image, because the spellcaster isn't concealed; they're simply in a crowd.

[Flickerdart]

On average, that's 20 damage, meaning an average concentration DC of 30+spell level. I feel like that's difficult to beat for a level 9ish caster. Am I being too optimistic?
Concentration: 12 ranks.
Constitution: +2.
MW tool: +2.
Tunic of Steady Spellcasting: +5.

With trivial investment, the caster has a +21; in other words, he's more reliably beating your DCs than you are passing his saves.

[(Un)Inspired]

With nerveskitter, caster SADness, initiative buffing familiars, improved initiative as an option as a bonus feat for wizards and general future predicting divinations; have you taken into account that you will essentially be loosing every initiative roll?

Can your character survive whatever a caster's opening salvo is going to be? What if someone dumps a bunch of mail on you? How does you build hold up to a maximized/twinned enervation?

You mention that you assume your character will have access to flight. What kind of speed are you looking at for this hypothetical flight? With non tradition race selection and Alter Self some pretty jaw dropping speeds can be achieved to say nothing of the speed racers that can come from Polymorph.

How do you make aerial contact with something faster than you?

[jiriku]

Why can't we assume that? With divinations and celerity I think we can grant the caster a lot more spells up that just 3.

PC groups also surprise bad guys. Not every NPC spellcaster has celerity and immunity to daze. It's important to bear in mind here that his target is "NPC spellcasters encountered normally while adventuring with the other PCs". It is not "PC wizard prepared for a wizard-vs-monk duel".


Once I see him, if I get close, pierce magical concealment takes care of the rest (right?)

I hadn't put much thought into Pierce Magical Concealment. That will solve a lot of your problems.


Does Stand Still not prevent this? I hadn't thought of just "falling out of threat range".

But not this one. falling is a free action. You can take any number of free actions per turn, within reason. Stand Still will not defeat gravity, although the image of you trying to keep the enemy in the air by furiously bouncing him off your duom like a paddleball is really entertaining.


Yeah, this is a problem I didn't think about. Any suggestions?

Most physically powerful spellcasters are solo monsters. As such, you'll have plenty of opportunity to tag-team these enemies with your allies. The best solutions probably involve looking at the other party members to see how their abilities complement yours -- come up with team tactics.


I mean, yeah. Here was my thinking: pierce magical protection dispels all their armor-adding spells, and then deft opportunist gives me that valuable +4 to all my attacks of opportunity. I thought that might cover the BAB discrepency.

That's a good tactic. It will probably work at least some of the time. What if the enemy has a high natural armor bonus, and isn't relying on spells for defense? For example a lot of the demons and devils the Monster Manual that are around your level simply have very high Dexterity and natural armor. They have powerful magical offenses, but few, if any, defensive magics.


I'm not familiar with ironguard or ghostform. Do pierce magical protection and pierce magical concealment not work against them?

Ironguard makes you immune to metal weapons. They just go right through as if your target wasn't there. Ghostform makes a caster incorporeal. You may be able to pierce his miss chance but you'll have trouble locking him down when he can drop through the nearest wall or floor.


Without casting a spell? Damn. Is there a feat that triggers an AoO on someone activating a magic item? If so, would that interrupt the teleportation?

There is not, so far as I know. However, you can probably count on the fact that your DM doesn't want to deck out every single enemy with teleportation items. Thus, you'll need to deal with this kind of thing, but perhaps not too often.


As for standard BC spells, that's why I went monk: for the good saves. I'm assuming I'll have to eat a few spells with this build, but I designed it to try and mitigate that possibility as much as possible.

This is good. However, get some tactical teleportation of your own. A lot of battlefield control doesn't allow a save.