Dragon vs. Wizard

[kpenguin]

Since it is obvious how a lvl 20 wizard could beat a CR 20 dragon from the "Wizard vs. Dragon" thread, how could you make/play a dragon in order to beat a wizard.

The Rules:
1) Base creature must be one of the "true dragons"
2) Creature gets equipment equal to that of an NPC of 20th level (220,000 gp)
3) You may use any class or template, but you must reference the splat book it's from if its noncore
4) No cheese
5) Dragon's total CR must be equal to 20
6) Assuming a lvl 20 wizard with elite array stats and equipment equal to a lvl 20 PC

[Quietus]

Feat : Spellcasting Harrier (Draconomicon)
Tactics : Sneak up on wizard

Sneak up within 200 feet. Single move action later you're next to him.Sure, the wizard can cheese it all he wants and use Foresight so you don't get a surprise round, but you can still win initiative (specially if you're preparing for this). Get next to the wizard, and when he tries to cast defensively, oh no! He's got a massive penalty to his concentration check! Then you hit him, he fails to cast the spell, and you full attack.

Anyone else for dinner?

[Ulzgoroth]

What if the wizard instead Withdraws and casts Quickened Teleport? Granted they might not, but it's a reasonable precaution.

EDIT: And they only need to withdraw because you might have an AMF in effect. Quickened spells don't provoke, even with Spellcasting Harrier.

[Tor the Fallen]

What if the wizard instead Withdraws and casts Quickened Teleport? Granted they might not, but it's a reasonable precaution.

Or create forcecages when you get close to the dragon's lair. Quicken silenced dimension door into one when you get in trouble, then do whatever.

[kpenguin]

Guys, guys, the point is to figure out how to make it so a dragon beats a wizard, not the other way around.

[Ulzgoroth]

Well, if you can sneak into 400 feet of the wizard, you could use Dire Charge. Might that be enough to kill off the wizard in a single round? For a Wyrm white dragon with power attack and magic items?

[Diggorian]

May not work, but I'd make a juevenile red dragon Ranger5/Occult slayer5 (CR20) using her wealth by level for disguise stuff to become a stealthy mage serial killer. Feats including -- but not limited to -- Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment and Protection, and this Spell Harrier.

Perhaps swapping out some Ranger levels for Rogue or Swordsage?

[Eldritch_Ent]

I'd suggest having the Dragon wear or use Antimagic Field, since very few PC's will be able to stand up to a dragon in one on one direct combat. (Especially if the dragon can Full Attack)

[deadseashoals]

What if the wizard instead Withdraws and casts Quickened Teleport? Granted they might not, but it's a reasonable precaution.

EDIT: And they only need to withdraw because you might have an AMF in effect. Quickened spells don't provoke, even with Spellcasting Harrier.


Withdrawing from melee combat is a full-round action. When you withdraw, you can move up to double your speed. The square you start out in is not considered threatened by any opponent you can see, and therefore visible enemies do not get attacks of opportunity against you when you move from that square.

If the dragon has 10 foot reach, he still gets an attack of opportunity, which he can Snatch you with, since if he has 10 foot reach, he's Huge and qualifies for Snatch and Improved Snatch. And if he is old enough to take Spellcasting Harrier, an Epic feat, he's certainly old enough to be Huge. Your ring of freedom of movement won't help you either if he's done his homework and cast antimagic field.

[deadseashoals]

Ancient Brass Dragon - CR 20, sorcerer caster level 15th.

Key Feats: Snatch, Improved Snatch (Draconomicon), Practiced Spellcaster (Complete Divine), Combat Reflexes, Spellcasting Harrier (Epic SRD or Draconomicon)

Key Spells: contingency, antimagic field, teleport

Key equipment: contingency focus (1,500 gp)

Step 1: Cast contingency - antimagic field (your caster level is 19th thanks to Practiced Spellcaster) triggered the instant a tasty wizard is within 10 feet of you

Step 2: Teleport next to your intended meal

Step 3: Eat

Step 4: Collect 760,000 gp of delicious PC wealth by level allocation

It's not failure proof, but there's quite a bit of room left to go wild. He is a pretty competent sorcerer in his own right, and he has a few epic feats left to play with. I also spent next to no money, and only used up three of his spells known (and seriously, he should probably just know limited wish instead of contingency).

[Vyker]

Easy.

Give the dragon levels in wizard.



Okay, okay, seriously... I think it really depends. Are dragons:

a) Big nasty lizards who sit in gold-filled caves waiting for knights in shining armor to come charging up to their door? ("Sweet! Delivery!")

b) Lone schemers, perhaps with some minions or mercenaries or monsters (unwitting, perhaps allowed to "settle" in the lower levels of the dragon lair to act as guards), who are proactive yet still mostly reliant on themselves or, in exceptional occasions, other dragons?

c) Actually worth every point of Int/Wis/Cha that they get thrown PLUS benefiting from their massive wealth and long lifespan, and therefore (with the proper motivation, which Option A & B lack) likely to be heavily involved with the local kingdom/trade factors/assassins guild/church that the dragon is not merely a dragon but head of/a major player in an entire goddamn army who can oppose the character but may very well hunt them for quite a long time afterwards if their dragon overlord is killed.

How the dragon deals with a wizard depends quite heavily on what you consider to be "dragon-like."

[Jade_Tarem]

What we consider to be dragon-like for the purposes of this discussion is a statblock in the Monster Manual. Naturally, dragons can vary from campaign to campaign (and should) - and some of those dragons will be formidable enough that a wizard won't pop in and kill them for money in a pinch. It doesn't really matter in basic RAW-governed debates, though.

[Bears With Lasers]

You don't need that much more than Antimagic Field. A dragon with an AMF is well-nigh untouchable. Of course, Dragon With An AMF is essentially abusive. And... does a dragon really want to spend all day, every day, in an AMF? Does every dragon wants to do this? If not, a wizard can Dominate two or three CR 20 dragons (or more if he wants to find the time) and get them to kill the AMF Dragon for him, so the dragon should be prepared to deal with that, I suppose.

[Ulzgoroth]

You probably need to add scrying of some kind (to observe the target for the teleport) and want to use Greater Teleport, because a single scroll removes the sizeable 24% chance of going horribly off target.

I'd also suggest thwarting Greater Anticipate Teleportation by coming in a little more than 100 feet off, with a Time Stop so you can get close enough for your AMF to work before they move. Practiced Spellcaster lets you cast any sorcerer or cleric spell in the from a scroll with no check, exploit it.

[Vyker]

I ask partially for the purpose of knowing whether the Leadership feat is thematically available or not.

[Bears With Lasers]

Leadership orta be banned outright. Especially for dragons, who could pick up an epic caster cohort, RAW.

[Vyker]

Hehehe... in principle I agree, but for the purposes of this... it seems entirely appropriate.

I mean, you're a very smart/charismatic/pragmatic creature with an incredible lifespan. Are you going to risk your own hide against every would-be dragonslayer who comes a-knockin'? Or are you going to let your wrecking crew deal with the problem?

(It's a shame, 'cause I like the idea of the leadership feat, but it rapidly gets out of control.

"What? The party is now double its size? And you have hundreds of redshirts, too?")

[Bears With Lasers]

Leadership is lame, yeah. If you want someone to play two characters, let them play two characters. As a feat, it doesn't work well.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Since it is obvious how a lvl 20 wizard could beat a CR 20 dragon from the "Wizard vs. Dragon" thread, how could you make/play a dragon in order to beat a wizard.

The Rules:
1) Base creature must be one of the "true dragons"
2) Creature gets equipment equal to that of an NPC of 20th level (220,000 gp)
3) You may use any class or template, but you must reference the splat book it's from if its noncore
4) No cheese

For the purposes of this thread:

I allow the variant Personal Mindblank spell based on psionics and original spell research costs is that an option for this thread?

For sorcerers I allow them to buy scrolls of standard spells at standard spell scroll costs with the standard feat modifier adjusting the spell level instead of requiring the sorcerer to have blow a feat to enhance a few or a handful of spells which also addresses a lot of meta concerns and spellcasting.

Mechanically MotAO and GMoW both use the spell pool. I allow sorcerers to take the Spell Pool feat with MotAO usage limitations. In this scenario the dragon sorcerer would get up to 9 spell levels of arcane spells a day using the spell pool feat.

I don't consider taking a few crafting feats and getting more for your 220,000 gold pieces cheese and figuring the HD of the Wyrm it would really be neglible in any event at mid level.

What are your thoughts?

P.S. I like the Leadership feat option for a BBEG because it would give the dragon access to a information/spy network along with intermediaries and underlings for targets like this wizard.

Would the Leadership Feat be an option without a Cohort which could be so easily abused for the purposes of this thread?

Since you don't get the leadership feat for the dragon in this thread and this dragon really wants to kill the wizard several or more limited wishes to get gold to fund information gathering and professional divination spellcasting by other casters would be in order and not be cheese IMO with the experience pool availabe to the dragon to draw on in return for the experience and probable treasure he would gain in return for defeating the wizard.

A limited wish could be used to discover if the the wizard is normally mindblanked.

If the wizard is mindblanked and thereby protected from most divinations. Funding a few Communes is in order to determine where his lair/base of operations is and determining is he has more than one lair. Does he use body doubles or substitues to throw off attackers? Does the wizard normally use the Contingency spell? If yes what does he normally use as his back up emergency spell? Does the wizard have an emergency clone? Does the wizard maintain more than one spare emergency clones? Where is it hidden? Who are his closest friends, family and enemies?

Mindblank doesn't protect you from nonmagical surveillance like the local thieve's guilds, other independent operators and neighbors.

One information ruse in a campaign was having charismatic people considering moving into the neighborhood with "concerns' regarding the safety of their children and stories regarding that/those dangerous adventurer(s) and simply inquiring around the neighborhoodand renting a property or taking a room at the inn or actually going through the process of purchasing a nearby property.

The rumor mongering ruse turning public sentiment against them in a city campaign or the areas where he or she conducts most of their business.

The impersonation campaign impersonating enemies and the PCs doing dastardly deeds and witnessed by locals in town.

All through intermediaries with the Master Mind cloaked from divinations.

_________________________________________


Before I call it a night and come back to this thread later today or tomorrow.

Because the dragon is really penalized by the CR factor and augmenting normal sorcerer spell casting level ability in most situations with a quick look at the monster manual.

One potentailly good dragon candiate might be the CR20 Brass Wyrm with CL15 from the Draconomicon and the Monster Manual. Haven't looked at the Draconomicon or other source books yet.

Just using the kobold dragon ritual would get you level 8 spells and the Timestop monster killer spell could always be purchased for use with a scroll or a limited usage prorated magical item similar to permanent Gates and the major cost reduction limiting usage to 1/10 days vice unlimited daily usage.

If you really wanted level 9 spellcasting you could go Ur-Lord or Priest or gestalt and Sublime Bard might be a possibility.

A level 20 wizard is a very capable and very dangerous character not someone you would want for an enemy bearing a grudge so you would want to take him out the first time you attack him.

While in theory you could just reverse and use the tried and true tactics people really seemed to like in the wizard versus dragon sorcerer thread:

Just teleporting inside his lair Timestopped and casting a bunch of area effect spells on the unprotected defenseless sleeping wizard monster at home unprotected in his lair most people would have no problems with the wizard having defenses and protections because he is a genius wizard at home protected in his lair so a little caution might be in order.

I'm still in the planning stages myself considering options and planting a few seeds for others like an arcane think tank.

If the wizard's lair isn't warded via dimensional travel maybe teleporting in with a contingency anti magic shell to activate on arrival a few hours after he normally goes to sleep wouldn't be a bad option negating his spells and just killing him.

So several questions:

Mechanically how does that scenario play out in this campaign for this thread if the wizard had a contingency teleport spell cast that if someone teleports into his presence he would be teleported to safety when the arriving caster has a contingency antimagic shell spell set to go off on arrival.

What if the arriving dragon sorcerer had a Quickened Anti-Magic Shell set into the Contingency (via a Rod) would his spell take effect first negating the wizard's contingency and the majority of his magical protections?

If the wizard was hidden inside a dimensional space like the Rope Trick or Mord's Mansion what effect would the Anti-Magic Shell have on those spells in this game?

__________________________________________________ _________________

There is the rather INSIDIOUS method of using Trap the Soul by tricking the wizard into touching a Trigger Object option since it has No Will Save and most wizard PCs don't prepare contingencies against it in dailly routine which could always be purchased as a scroll as a last resort.

__________________________________________________ ____________________

Since a level 20 wizard is a legendary and usually reknowned figure you could do simple things like cast limited wish to make gold pieces to pay spies to provide you information regarding said wizard particularly who his enemies are along with who his friends are and who their enemies are.

34HD is 12 general feats at 1,3, 6...........

__________________________________________________ ___________________

A +0 Soul Locked template from Heroes of Horror for the dragon that will not die even after getting toasted with Saph's Permanent Emanation Feat Anti-Magic for a dragon with a Chaotic alignment and the Flexible Mind feat to gain the necessary spellcraft levels.

[the_tick_rules]

have him fight a great wyrm, aboce CR 20 but it'll get the job done.

[Shrew]

How fair fetch is it to say that a dragon could have Contingency with a circle of death that goes off when ever someone teleports into their lair? Granted this would be used only by evil dragons that do not care about there minions. If I read the spell right it kill 1d4 per caster level of creatures. This would go off before timestop, and would be a fortitude save-or-die effect. That would easily get about 12-14d4 levels worth of creatures, or an average of 24-28 levels. Just a thought.

[Lapak]

Here's a thought.

One of the big reasons that the Wizard beats the Dragon is his extra actions, usually from some combination of Celerity and/or Time Stop.

While a dragon shouldn't be hyper-paranoid and spend all his treasure on protecting himself, I'd think any dragon who had thought about it might well either use a Wish from its hoard or hire a wizard (or, if powerful enough, cast itself) to arrange for a Contingent Counterspell. Now that I think about it, I don't know if there is a RAW way to set up a contingent counterspell against a spell you're not the target of, but I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed - and a counterspell attempt that uses the same spell as is being cast is successful without a roll.

That would go a long way towards leveling the playing field, I'd imagine.

[Roderick_BR]

The dragon could leave some Alarm spells around, get some anticipate teleport himself, or use the oldest trick in the book: Invisibility, and some Ilusion spell to make it looks like he's sleeping in the treasure room, not at the wizard's side near the entrance. He could use these spells to anticipate if someone will ambush him that day also, including the one that doesn't let him be ambushed.

Ya know, "just in case", being that "just in case" usually happens everyday for a dragon.

[Woot Spitum]

Would a Dracolich count? Those undead immunities really help against all those save-or-die/suck spells.

[Diggorian]

Are Dracolichs Undead type or templates that get smacked on, or something else? Kpenguin put his prereqs at the top.

Really woundnt a truely random encountered Black wyrm in a field be enough? Spot distance starts at 6d6x40 ft. The highest Spot check determines who becomes aware first and the range. Odds say it's the dragon, her spot check x10 = range in feet.

Alot depends on what she sees. An armorless fine robed human/elf on a horseback, flying, or polymorphed will evoke different reactions ofcourse. If the first two are the case, pre-emptive disintegrate is within their alignment.

Sure a Wizard has spells to prevent even this kind of ambush, but on an individual basis many wont be ready for this.

[Jack_Simth]

Easy.

Give the dragon levels in wizard.If you follow CR guidelines as written, that is actually better than you might think.

You see, as a Dragon is not inherently Wizardly, Wizard levels technically qualify as nonassociated class levels until they exceed racial Hit Dice.

A Very Young Silver Dragon is CR 5 and has 10 racial HD. If you add 10 Wizard levels, those 10 are nonassociated, and increase the CR by 5; additionally, you get to add the elete array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) in free of charge. Officially, a Very Young Silver Dragon has stat modifiers of: +4 Str, +4 Con, +4 Int, +4 Wis, +4 Charisma. With the Elite array, that could be, oh, Str 12 (8+4), Dex 10 (10+0), Con 18 (14+4), Int 19 (15+4), Wis 17 (13+4), Cha 16 (12+4) - and the dragon would get normal stat increases at HD 12, 16, and 20; three of them; Intelligence sounds good for this build, so that's Str 12, Dex 10, Con 18, Int 22, Wis 17, Cha 16 - and we haven't introduced Magic yet.

So your officially CR 10 dragon is a Wiz-10 with some stat boosts and 10 racial HD. Further Wizard levels are now associated, though. Still, when he hits CR 20, he is a full-fledged Wiz-20 (and still with 10 racial HD). And two more ability boosts (HD 24 and 28; Int is good - brings it up to 24 before magic). Do note that a Venerable Elf variant with a +2 Racial bonus to Int and a base Int of 18 would only have an Int of 28 before magic. Toss in a +5 Tome and a +6 Headband of Intellect for both, and there is, at best, a save DC difference of... 2? And the Dragon has a few bonus feats to play with, better saves, better BAB, better movement, better ... well, almost everything, really, unless the non-dragon rolled really well on stats... and these competitions usually use a point buy.

And the dragon is playing defense, in the lair. And can play a human whenever (3 times a day, for as long as desired). Basically, the Dragon can be a Wizard+.

(A Wyrmling Bronze is also a decent choice, as is a Young, Very Young, or Juvenile White; a Very Young Red, a Young or Very Young Green, a Young, Very Young, or Wyrmling Blue, or a Young Black - but the Very Young Silver is about the best for this piece of cheddar... if you are focusing on Save DC and stats; for other choices, you will want different dragons and ages).

The Very Young Silver actually has a level adjustment (+4), so can quite legally have a defineable XP pool. If the Young Silver forgoes a single level of Wizard, that's 33,000 loose XP to play with.

The Dragon's actual lair is not physically accessable without going through solid rock (turned into a critter with a burrow speed, went underground until the Dragon hit bedrock, cast a Silent Stilled Disintigrate to make a 10x10 seed room; regular Disintigrate spells (after becoming a "normal" creature) to enlarge as needed; Wall of Stone to seal off the top like normal rock, and keeps the area covered with a Dimension Lock and a Permanencied Mage's Private Sanctum). The actual lair also has a few Permanencied and Heightened Symbols, set to a custom trigger activiation: As soon as ready. No more than one is offline at any given time. Half a dozen will do the job quite nicely. As the attacking Wizard, you don't know this until after you're in (pretty much can't view the area by any means).

The Dragon maintains a "social" lair with similar defenses, minus the always-active Symbols; there are still several Permanencied Symbols about, but they have a custom trigger method that the Dragon can cause whenever (Symbols can be set to anything the caster wants, provided it is either observable or in a short list of things; a Quickened Shadow Conjouration can cause a critter of semi-arbitrary size, shape, and alignment to suddenly be inside the area of all of them, setting them off with a Swift action on the part of the dragon).

The Dragon of course maintains a normal set of The Logic Ninja's Paranoid Wizard Defenses (Mind Blank, Well-worded Contingency, and so forth).

Oh yeah - and so far, the above is pure Core.

... and going outside Core, the Wizard is going to have problems. Having 30 HD, the Dragon qualifies for Epic feats - like, oh, Spell Stowaway (Time Stop). Or maybe Permanent Emanation (Antimagic Field) (can be turned on or off as a free action). The Dragon also has the option of such things as the Celerity+Foresight combo.

[Saph]

A dragon that can beat a Level 20 Wizard? No problem. You don't even need class levels.

First, let's pick us a dragon. We need a dragon capable of casting 6th level spells. I'll pick a Very Old bronze dragon, because it has a CR of a nice round 20, and because I like bronze dragons. They're cute.

Next step, the core Epic feat: Permanent Emanation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#permanentEmanation).


Benefit: Designate any one of your spells whose area is an emanation centered on you. This spell’s effect is permanent (though you can dismiss or restart it as a free action). Effects that would normally dispel this spell instead suppress it for 2d4 rounds.

Antimagic Field is an emanation. Pick it.

Voila, permanent antimagic field. Every round, on its turn, the dragon dismisses the antimagic field as a free action, does whatever it wants (casts spells, uses its breath weapon), and restarts it again as another free action.

The dragon now has near-complete immunity to magic, combined with the ability to use its own magic whenever it wants. The wizard is limited to attacking the dragon with stuff unaffected by an Antimagic Field. The dragon can attack the wizard with whatever it feels like at the time. Attacks, breath weapon, spells, Improved Snatch, crush attacks . . . the works.

The wizard loses.

- Saph

[Bears With Lasers]

Heck--a high-CR dragon could probably even cast AMF often enough to have it up 24/7, sans permanent emanation.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

A dragon that can beat a Level 20 Wizard? No problem. You don't even need class levels.

First, let's pick us a dragon. We need a dragon capable of casting 6th level spells. I'll pick a Very Old bronze dragon, because it has a CR of a nice round 20, and because I like bronze dragons. They're cute.

Next step, the core Epic feat: Permanent Emanation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#permanentEmanation).



Antimagic Field is an emanation. Pick it.

Voila, permanent antimagic field. Every round, on its turn, the dragon dismisses the antimagic field as a free action, does whatever it wants (casts spells, uses its breath weapon), and restarts it again as another free action.

The dragon now has near-complete immunity to magic, combined with the ability to use its own magic whenever it wants. The wizard is limited to attacking the dragon with stuff unaffected by an Antimagic Field. The dragon can attack the wizard with whatever it feels like at the time. Attacks, breath weapon, spells, Improved Snatch, crush attacks . . . the works.

The wizard loses.

- Saph

How does he get the required 25 Spellcraft ranks? IIRC, Spellcraft is cross-class for Dragon type...

[Saph]

Heck--a high-CR dragon could probably even cast AMF often enough to have it up 24/7, sans permanent emanation.

But Permanent Emanation is so much more stylish. You get to activate/deactivate it as a free action! There's no limit on free actions AFAIK, so you could switch it on and off a hundred times in a round. Keep flicking it on and off as spells go back and forth!

Re: Spellcraft - yeah, I don't think it's a class skill for dragons, but you can just take the Skill Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/alternativeSkillSystems.htm#skillKnowledge) feat or something similar.

- Saph

[deadseashoals]

Heck--a high-CR dragon could probably even cast AMF often enough to have it up 24/7, sans permanent emanation.

Yeah, but that would mean the dragon can't use free action cheese to use his own spells and supernatural abilities. However, as Shneeky pointed out, Spellcraft is not a class skill for true dragons (except blues, which don't reach CL 12th by CR 20), so the dragon will need either 47 hit dice (not possible by CR 20) or a class level.

Of course, you still have to make sure you jump and snatch or crush the wizard, trapping them in your AMF. Otherwise, they'll still be able to pull off dirty tricks that circumvent AMF like gate cheese, or just escape.

[Ulzgoroth]

A Very Old brass with two Wizard (or other caster) levels can manage that build, taking Permanent Emanation as their 30HD feat. Or any dragon with caster level 11 at CR 19, with one sorcerer level inserted earlier in their progression.

[Saph]

Just take the Skill Knowledge feat or something similar, and gain Spellcraft as a class skill.

Or use something else. I'm sure I've seen several feats from different sourcebooks that let you turn a cross-class skill into a class skill.

- Saph

[CASTLEMIKE]

Using the gestalt option could do the trick.

[kpenguin]

Blue dragons have spellcraft as a class skill. Its the only dragon that does, though. It has a CR of 19 at very old and a CL of 11. With one sorcerer level, that blue can manage one 6th level spell.... antimagic field

[Belteshazzar]

A dragon that can beat a Level 20 Wizard? No problem. You don't even need class levels.

First, let's pick us a dragon. We need a dragon capable of casting 6th level spells. I'll pick a Very Old bronze dragon, because it has a CR of a nice round 20, and because I like bronze dragons. They're cute.

Next step, the core Epic feat: Permanent Emanation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#permanentEmanation).



Antimagic Field is an emanation. Pick it.

Voila, permanent antimagic field. Every round, on its turn, the dragon dismisses the antimagic field as a free action, does whatever it wants (casts spells, uses its breath weapon), and restarts it again as another free action.

The dragon now has near-complete immunity to magic, combined with the ability to use its own magic whenever it wants. The wizard is limited to attacking the dragon with stuff unaffected by an Antimagic Field. The dragon can attack the wizard with whatever it feels like at the time. Attacks, breath weapon, spells, Improved Snatch, crush attacks . . . the works.

The wizard loses.

- Saph

I now see a dragon teaching an obnoxious wizard that he is truly nothing more than a withered old man armed with a book of unpronounceable words, a knobbly stick, and a funny looking hat.... This pleases me greatly.

[deadseashoals]

Able Learner is human only, won't help anyway. Education only gives Knowledge skills.

And yes, a blue dragon can take a level of sorcerer and fulfill the requirements. But therein lies the catch, as any dragon can take a level of sorcerer and fulfill the requirements. Given equal CR, the dragon with the highest arcane spellcaster level is going to be the most suited to take down the wizard in any case, so you want a dragon capable of higher level spellcasting at CR 20 than the Very Old Blue Dragon Sorcerer 1.

[Beleriphon]

Since it is obvious how a lvl 20 wizard could beat a CR 20 dragon from the "Wizard vs. Dragon" thread, how could you make/play a dragon in order to beat a wizard.

The Rules:
1) Base creature must be one of the "true dragons"
2) Creature gets equipment equal to that of an NPC of 20th level (220,000 gp)
3) You may use any class or template, but you must reference the splat book it's from if its noncore
4) No cheese

1) Great Wrym Red Dragon + 20 levels of Druid.
2) Wild Shape into something fun
3)No none core
4)20th level druids are only cheesy in so far as druids are cheesy in general.
5) Dragon wins.

There we go. I should also point out that you never said the dragon had to be CR20 in return. My result has a CR46 monster fighting a CR20 wizard.

[Ulzgoroth]

And yes, a blue dragon can take a level of sorcerer and fulfill the requirements. But therein lies the catch, as any dragon can take a level of sorcerer and fulfill the requirements. Given equal CR, the dragon with the highest arcane spellcaster level is going to be the most suited to take down the wizard in any case, so you want a dragon capable of higher level spellcasting at CR 20 than the Very Old Blue Dragon Sorcerer 1.

We're talking about a fight in an AMF...Snatch lets you keep it that way...taking down the wizard is a joke once you've got him grappled. Heck, just swallow him, and don't drop the field until he stops twitching.

[Tor the Fallen]

What if the dragon maxes diplomacy and talks the wizard out of killing him?

[Bears With Lasers]

We're talking about a fight in an AMF...Snatch lets you keep it that way...taking down the wizard is a joke once you've got him grappled. Heck, just swallow him, and don't drop the field until he stops twitching.
Swallowing him is the WORST thing you could do. Inside you, he has full cover from the AMF and is therefore unaffected by it.

[kpenguin]

Errr... what mechanic of Snatch let's you swallow the wizard? I agree that grappling the wizard while the AMF is one of the best options you could have however.

[Ulzgoroth]

Swallowing him is the WORST thing you could do. Inside you, he has full cover from the AMF and is therefore unaffected by it.
:smalleek: Very true. I could probably come up with a worse idea, with some effort, but that's up there...


Errr... what mechanic of Snatch let's you swallow the wizard? I agree that grappling the wizard while the AMF is one of the best options you could have however.
If you're desperate to make that particular dreadful mistake, as Bears pointed out, you add the Improved Snatch (which you need anyway if you're only Huge) and Snatch and Swallow feats from Draconomicon.

[deadseashoals]

We're talking about a fight in an AMF...Snatch lets you keep it that way...taking down the wizard is a joke once you've got him grappled. Heck, just swallow him, and don't drop the field until he stops twitching.

Yes, I'm aware of the trick, I did post about it. However, high level spells = the win, and enable you to get the wizard into a situation where you could actually potentially get to within 5 feet of the wizard. Hence, a higher caster level is desirable. I liked the suggestion to take the Skill Knowledge feat, that would allow any dragon to take Permanent Emanation.

[Ulzgoroth]

Practiced Spellcaster combined with scrolls make the number of sorcerer ranks much less important, it seems to me. Even the dragons that cast as level 12 sorcerers are still trying to make a DC 18 caster level check with a caster level of 16 to cast level 9 spells from scrolls...not a sure thing, but close.

While higher casting level is obviously a good thing, what do you really need out of casting as sorc15 instead of sorc12?

Skill Knowledge is nice if you can get it, but the page it's on only suggests it in the context of alternative skill systems. Dragging that into non-variant play seems a bit sketchy.

[kpenguin]

Remember, spellcraft is a cross-class skill for all true dragons except for the blue. This means that in order to qualify for Permanent Emanation, a dragon would have to have something like 50 points put into spellcraft and have HD 47. Since the accepted strategy is essentially to have a permanent antimagic field emanating from the dragon and then melee, the only reason CL comes into play is trying to make sure the Wiz doesn't escape by telporting or dimension dooring or something of that nature. Mmmm... maybe dimension anchor or something like that...

[deadseashoals]

Practiced Spellcaster combined with scrolls make the number of sorcerer ranks much less important, it seems to me. Even the dragons that cast as level 12 sorcerers are still trying to make a DC 18 caster level check with a caster level of 16 to cast level 9 spells from scrolls...not a sure thing, but close.

While higher casting level is obviously a good thing, what do you really need out of casting as sorc15 instead of sorc12?

Mostly, it cuts back on the resources required to gather information on your targets or enables it at all in some cases (e.g. limited wish + scrying). Plus, no dragon would actually want to burn all those scrolls if it didn't have to. Making a dragon (or any NPC, but especially a dragon) just happen to have on hand the exact right combination of scrolls to cast in sequence in order to obliterate a 20th level wizard, and making him actually expend those resources is pretty unrealistic.

And what do you really lose out of gaining those caster levels? They're pretty much the only thing you should be optimizing for anyway when choosing the dragon, why not make them high? Very Old Brass Dragon Sorcerer 1 is the same CR as the blue with 1 sorcerer level, and has 2 more caster levels.

[CASTLEMIKE]

The Flexible Mind Feat would do it with a chaotic alignment for choosing spellcraft as a regular skill from DR326.

Choose two skills you have ranks in with a chaotic alignment they are always class skills for you now.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Since this was a double post I can't delete the Psuedo Dragonet is a ECL 4 dragon according to the Draconomicon table 3 - 14 dragon cohort chart.

With the ECL level buy down option at levels 3, 6 and 9 there would be a lot of regular levels to play with making a CR20 dragon.

[Beleriphon]

Swallowing him is the WORST thing you could do. Inside you, he has full cover from the AMF and is therefore unaffected by it.

Unless you slap the source of the AMF on the wizard's boots. Then you have yourself a wizard inside and an AMF, inside a dragon.

[Ramos]

I believe only the Brass dragon can take Permanent Emanation: AMF without class levels. Why? Because to take the feat you must already know the spell. All other dragons take their feat at 30 HD and also gain 6th lvl spells at the same time-so they can't pick PE: AMF because they don't meet the perequisites until AFTER they've taken AMF-and thus after CR 20.

Also, the Wizard could get Hide From Dragons and a Gate scroll. The dragon cannot detect him. The Wizard can summon a 40 HD outsider to tear the dragon apart.

[Beleriphon]

I believe only the Brass dragon can take Permanent Emanation: AMF without class levels. Why? Because to take the feat you must already know the spell. All other dragons take their feat at 30 HD and also gain 6th lvl spells at the same time-so they can't pick PE: AMF because they don't meet the perequisites until AFTER they've taken AMF-and thus after CR 20.

Also, the Wizard could get Hide From Dragons and a Gate scroll. The dragon cannot detect him. The Wizard can summon a 40 HD outsider to tear the dragon apart.

I already pointed this out, but there is no stipulation on the max CR of the dragon in question. So my hypothetical CR46 level 20 druid Great Wyrm Red dragon pwns the 40HD outsider. And the wizard that summoned it as well.

[Bears With Lasers]

I already pointed this out, but there is no stipulation on the max CR of the dragon in question. So my hypothetical CR46 level 20 druid Great Wyrm Red dragon pwns the 40HD outsider. And the wizard that summoned it as well.

My! You're so very clever! I guess this discussion is over now!

[Renegade Paladin]

The dragon wins because it has excellent saves, more hit points than God, spell resistance, spellcasting as a sorcerer, the fastest natural fly speed in the game, equipment that it would be stupid not to use, an INT score high enough to ensure that it isn't stupid, an impressive array of natural and supernatural attacks, and is too big to fit in a forcecage. And even if it was, it could in all likelihood disintegrate the blasted thing anyway. If dragons of equal CR aren't the toughest things your party ever has to fight without resorting to creatures of a higher challenge rating than the average party level, then you're doing it wrong.

[Saph]

Skill Knowledge is nice if you can get it, but the page it's on only suggests it in the context of alternative skill systems. Dragging that into non-variant play seems a bit sketchy.

Okay, take the Cosmopolitan feat from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting instead. Same result.

Alternately, take a Very Old Brass Dragon - they have CR 19, 28 HD, and a caster level of 13th. He can have 16 ranks in Spellcraft as a cross-class skill. Give him two Sorcerer levels and give him 6 more ranks in Spellcraft each level. He now has CR 20, 30 HD, a caster level of 15th, and enough Spellcraft to qualify for the Permanent Emanation feat.

I prefer the "getting it as a class skill" approach, though. Less bookkeeping.

- Saph

[Ulzgoroth]

Alternately, take a Very Old Brass Dragon - they have CR 19, 28 HD, and a caster level of 13th. He can have 16 ranks in Spellcraft as a cross-class skill. Give him two Sorcerer levels and give him 6 more ranks in Spellcraft each level. He now has CR 20, 30 HD, a caster level of 15th, and enough Spellcraft to qualify for the Permanent Emanation feat.
If I'm doing my reading right, Sorcerer levels count as associated for a dragon with innate casting. So that one runs over CR...that's why I proposed a pair of Wizard levels.

[Saph]

If I'm doing my reading right, Sorcerer levels count as associated for a dragon with innate casting.

Oh, do they? Is that from the SRD, or somewhere else?

Meh, I prefer the "take feat to get it as a class skill" option, anyway.

- Saph

[CASTLEMIKE]

Use the hypertext Skill Knowledge (General Feat) Special option instead of choosing two class skills choose a cross class skill and treat it as a class skill from now on.

That would be available to all dragons.

[Ulzgoroth]

Oh, do they? Is that from the SRD, or somewhere else?
MM p294, I couldn't say for the SRD. Under 'advancing monster challenge rating'. Though they do say that they're giving guidelines rather than hard rules, and it makes little sense to say two sorcerer levels are better than getting the same casting benefits by advancing to ancient.

Class levels that increase a creature's innate casting count as associated, though.

Meh, I prefer the "take feat to get it as a class skill" option, anyway.

- Saph
It is more elegant that way.

[Woot Spitum]

Unless you slap the source of the AMF on the wizard's boots. Then you have yourself a wizard inside and an AMF, inside a dragon.

Unfortunately, that doesn't work. Antimagic Field is always centered caster (10-ft-radius emanation, centered on you to quote the PHB). Furthermore, since it is only of ten foot radius, once the dragon grows beyond large size, the field no longer covers him entirely, leaving him vulnerable to spells.

[Saph]

Unfortunately, that doesn't work. Antimagic Field is always centered caster (10-ft-radius emanation, centered on you to quote the PHB). Furthermore, since it is only of ten foot radius, once the dragon grows beyond large size, the field no longer covers him entirely, leaving him vulnerable to spells.

Wouldn't that mean that the field expands to be 10 feet beyond his occupied squares?

If it doesn't, I've no idea how to DM it, since part of the dragon is inside the field and part isn't.

- Saph

[Ulzgoroth]

Ten foot radius, not diameter. Huge fits in that fine (15 feet on a side, isn't it), but larger might have problems. Widening fixes that pretty well though.

[Indon]

What if the dragon maxes diplomacy and talks the wizard out of killing him?

Successful though this may be, (Seriously, why have a dragon going around hunting wizards when he could be going around making allies of them?) I suspect it falls under 'cheese'.

Edit: Also...


Swallowing him is the WORST thing you could do. Inside you, he has full cover from the AMF and is therefore unaffected by it.

If that were true, Dragons could use breath weapons in antimagic, because their lungs have cover from the AMF.

The fact that a Dragon's internal organs, despite having cover, are still unable to produce magic implies that they are affected by antimagic field.

[Saph]

Bluff would be funnier. A lot of dragons get it as a class skill, and they have the HD and Charisma to make good use of it. The average wizard has less than +5 to Sense Motive, so a dragon should easily be able to get a Bluff score of 40 points higher than that. That means, by RAW, the dragon can tell any lie it likes and have the wizard believe it.

Wizard: "I'm here to slay you, dragon!"
Dragon: "Well, I know I can't beat you in combat, so what if I gave you my hoard instead? I keep it in that dull black sphere there."
Wizard: "That thing looks like one of those annihilation spheres . . ."
Dragon: "Oh no, it's the latest in extradimensional storage space. Kind of like the upgrade to a Handy Haversack. All the epic-level guys are upgrading to them. You just reach in and pull out whatever you like."
Wizard: "Oh, okay then."
*bzzzt*
Dragon: "Oops."

- Saph

[Woot Spitum]

The fact that a Dragon's internal organs, despite having cover, are still unable to produce magic implies that they are affected by antimagic field.

Unless they're inherently magical, in which case a dragon in an antimagic field dies due to its lungs winking out of existence.:smalleek:

[Bears With Lasers]

If that were true, Dragons could use breath weapons in antimagic, because their lungs have cover from the AMF.

The fact that a Dragon's internal organs, despite having cover, are still unable to produce magic implies that they are affected by antimagic field.

Sorry, no. D&D Doesn't Work That Way. Dragon's can't use breath weapon in antimagic because it's a (Su) ability. That's it. Nothing to do with organs. Someone inside the dragon has full cover from the AMF and therefore is unaffected by it. The dragon itself is affected by its own AMF.

[kpenguin]

There we go. I should also point out that you never said the dragon had to be CR20 in return. My result has a CR46 monster fighting a CR20 wizard.

Nothing in the rules said that the wizard had to lvl 20 either. My lv 100 god-wizard kills your puny CR46 dragon! Rules have been updated to specify CR 20dragon vs. lvl 20 wizard.

Anyway, on the AMF, would the the rules state that you must place an emanation on a point on the grid. However, emantions centered on you are placed on a point on the grid adjacent to square which you cover. Could you specify that this point is within the dragon and thus covers the stomach?

[deadseashoals]

Sorry, no. D&D Doesn't Work That Way. Dragon's can't use breath weapon in antimagic because it's a (Su) ability. That's it. Nothing to do with organs. Someone inside the dragon has full cover from the AMF and therefore is unaffected by it. The dragon itself is affected by its own AMF.

Presumably, because the dragon's constituent body parts block line of effect? However, it's not that clear for a couple of reasons.

1) It's not as if the rules specify where on the creature an emanation starts. If it starts in the "center" of the creature, that would mean that everything has total cover from the emanation, and it does nothing.

2) Line of effect behaves like line of sight, except that it is not blocked by factors that limit normal sight. Creatures do not block line of sight. Why would part of a creature block line of effect?

[Yahzi]

Basically, the Dragon can be a Wizard+.
I'm pretty sure the answer to, "Can a dragon beat a wizard?" cannot possibly be, "Yes, by becoming a wizard."

:smallbiggrin:

You provide a great analysis. The simple answer seems to be that every dragon at least sleeps in an AMF. Either they learn to make it, or they buy one.

"Yes, the dragon has a valuable hoard. It consists of this portable AMF field, which keeps him alive."

[Draz74]

One thing to note whenever optimizing dragons, and class levels are an option:

One level of Sorcerer, besides slightly upgrading your existing spellcasting, will get you a familiar. Which isn't all that appealing for PCs ... but a dragon's familiar will have godlike HP and BAB.

Now, if only there was a familiar available with 13 Str, you could have it take Power Attack and it would actually be a viable melee threat. Not that a Dragon needs more of a melee threat on its side, but a familiar being a melee threat is just so novel ...

But in any case, I'm sure there's effective things to do with a nigh-invincible familiar. Especially in non-core, where you can have your familiar cast your spells while you (the dragon) just fight and breathe.

[Beleriphon]

Nothing in the rules said that the wizard had to lvl 20 either. My lv 100 god-wizard kills your puny CR46 dragon! Rules have been updated to specify CR 20dragon vs. lvl 20 wizard.


Yes, you did specify a level 20 wizard. I just checked.

[Jack_Simth]

I'm pretty sure the answer to, "Can a dragon beat a wizard?" cannot possibly be, "Yes, by becoming a wizard."

:smallbiggrin:

Well, in this case, the question was how do you build a CR 20 dragon that can beat a level 20 Wizard. It's an odd response, but it works. Technically.

The Silver dragon I listed would have Fighter-20 BAB (10 dragon HD with full BAB, 20 Wizard HD with 1/2 BAB = +20 BAB), more HP than a raging Barbarian (10 d12 Dragon HD, 20 d4 Wizard HD, and a racial Con bonus that's pretty nice ... okay, he'd Match the raging barbarian for HP), better base saves than the Monk-20 (+7/+7/+7 from Dragon HD, +6/+6/+12 from the Wizard HD make for +13/+13/+19, vs. the Monk-20's +12/+12/+12), and so on. Plus full Wizard casting and bonus feats. Clearly, a Wiz-20 with 10 dragon Hit Dice and some nifty draconic abilities is not the same CR 20 encounter that a Human Wizard-20 is. Yet by CR guidelines as written, they are supposedly the same challenge. It's why I kept throwing words like "technically" and "officially" in there. The intended lesson is that CR Guidelines are guidelines. But it works as a solution to the mental excersize, too.

If you'd prefer, I could get comperable results by replacing Wizard-20 with Cleric-20. The +4 racial Wisdom b onus works just as well as the +4 Racial Intelligence bonus. Or Artificer-20. Or Warlock-20. Or just about anything else which, with a large amount of prep time, can do essentially anything.


You provide a great analysis. The simple answer seems to be that every dragon at least sleeps in an AMF. Either they learn to make it, or they buy one.
I did not have my dragon sleeping in an AMF. But that is the simplest way to do it, yes... if you can find a reasonable way to get a semi-permanent anti-magic field.


"Yes, the dragon has a valuable hoard. It consists of this portable AMF field, which keeps him alive."
Which, I'm sure you'll agree, makes it very valuable indeed.... to the Dragon.


One thing to note whenever optimizing dragons, and class levels are an option:

One level of Sorcerer, besides slightly upgrading your existing spellcasting, will get you a familiar. Which isn't all that appealing for PCs ... but a dragon's familiar will have godlike HP and BAB.

Now, if only there was a familiar available with 13 Str, you could have it take Power Attack and it would actually be a viable melee threat. Not that a Dragon needs more of a melee threat on its side, but a familiar being a melee threat is just so novel ...

But in any case, I'm sure there's effective things to do with a nigh-invincible familiar. Especially in non-core, where you can have your familiar cast your spells while you (the dragon) just fight and breathe.

Improved Familiar, Formian Worker. Improved Familiar, Small Earth Elemental. Improved Familiar, Small Water Elemental - all have Str of 13+.

Do note, though, that familiars don't normally get feats outside the MM entry for the base critter, as their HD don't actually improve (unlike a Psicrystal, Animal Companion, or the Paladin's Mount).

[Aquillion]

The dragon now has near-complete immunity to magic, combined with the ability to use its own magic whenever it wants. The wizard is limited to attacking the dragon with stuff unaffected by an Antimagic Field. The dragon can attack the wizard with whatever it feels like at the time. Attacks, breath weapon, spells, Improved Snatch, crush attacks . . . the works. Technically, if the dragon lowers the field and the wizard catches on to what they're doing, they can ready an action to cast the instant it drops... although really, it's not like the dragon has to lower it.

I'm not sure if the dragon could just raise it again when the wizard tries to take their readied action, but I think not.

Also, can we take a Kobold, add the Dragonwraught Kobold feat to them so they count as a dragon, then use them to solve this? Because then it goes from being "make a dragon that beats wizard 20" to "make any build using a kobold and one wasted feat that beats wizard 20" which, despite the disadvantages, is not particularly hard.

I like the "legally, I am a dragon!" explaination, though.

[kpenguin]

Look at the rules, it states specifically that the base creature must be one of the true dragons.

[Kel_Arath]

Grapple. Simple as that.

[Jack_Simth]

Grapple. Simple as that.Mild issue - Rings of Freedom of Movement are pretty much standard equipment for Wizards. That, and at 20th, a Wizard can usually make the Concentration check for the Quickened Teleport with no problems (Dimension Door has this horrid little clause about not being able to act, afterwards).

An Antimagic Field would of course nullify that quite effectively....

[Renegade Paladin]

Anticipate teleportation is all the dragon needs; preferably the greater version. He acts before your time stop goes off, and you die. Or if your time stop is cast before you teleport, it's duration ticks down while you're suspended and you don't know about it, so your timing will be off and your spell will end a round or three before you expect it to. That adds up to a very dead wizard.

[Saph]

Technically, if the dragon lowers the field and the wizard catches on to what they're doing, they can ready an action to cast the instant it drops... although really, it's not like the dragon has to lower it.

Ah, but you see, that's why Permanent Emanation is so powerful. With a PE'd AMF, raising it or lowering it is a free action. Free actions are the fastest type in D&D. There's no limit to how many you can do in a round, or when you can do them. If you liked, you could flick the AMF on and off a hundred times before the wizard had even completed his move. That's why it's my favourite of the options here.

But it's unnecessary anyway. Take Snatch and Improved Snatch. Have your AMF up. Land next to the wizard. Laugh as all his armour and defensive buffs are negated, including his ring of freedom of movement. Grab him and start snacking.

- Saph

[TRM]

Dragons can cast spells as a sorcerer!
Just cast the antimagic field, fly up to the wizard (who conveniently can't do anything to you) and kill them!
Have you ever heard of a 20th level wizard defeating a CR20 dragon in melee?
They teleport?
You teleport after them!
If they can't affect you (because of you being coated in an antimagic field) I would call that a win.

Anti-Magic Field has a 10ft radius, which gives it an area of about 300ft.Technically, if the dragon lowers the field and the wizard catches on to what they're doing, they can ready an action to cast the instant it drops... although really, it's not like the dragon has to lower it.


I'm not sure if the dragon could just raise it again when the wizard tries to take their readied action, but I think not.
I see no reason why the dragon would want to lower the antimagic field (especially if the wizard is just sitting there with his readied action.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

The thing is, there are quite a few spells that can affect the dragon in the antimagic field. And there's a spell that allows you to cast any 4th level and lower spell even within AMFs, dead magic zones and null magic planes. So yes, a wizard can still defeat a dragon under an antimagic field-but ONLY if the wizard has specifically prepared for something like that.

[Draz74]

Ah, but you see, that's why Permanent Emanation is so powerful. With a PE'd AMF, raising it or lowering it is a free action. Free actions are the fastest type in D&D. There's no limit to how many you can do in a round, or when you can do them. If you liked, you could flick the AMF on and off a hundred times before the wizard had even completed his move. That's why it's my favourite of the options here.


Nope -- actually, there's no limit (except a recommended DM fiat) on how many free actions you can do in a round ... but there is a limit on when you can do them. They're on your turn only, except for a few that say otherwise.

[deadseashoals]

The thing is, there are quite a few spells that can affect the dragon in the antimagic field. And there's a spell that allows you to cast any 4th level and lower spell even within AMFs, dead magic zones and null magic planes. So yes, a wizard can still defeat a dragon under an antimagic field-but ONLY if the wizard has specifically prepared for something like that.

1) You can't cast in an antimagic field, even if your spells can go through it.

2) What spell is this? Where is it from? And how would that even work? The spell itself would be suppressed in an antimagic field.

3) How many spells does the wizard have that can be cast while grappled and pinned in an antimagic field?

[Jack_Simth]

1) You can't cast in an antimagic field, even if your spells can go through it.

2) What spell is this? Where is it from? And how would that even work? The spell itself would be suppressed in an antimagic field.

3) How many spells does the wizard have that can be cast while grappled and pinned in an antimagic field?
1) Invoke Magic (a rather broken spell).
2) Again, not entirely aware of where it's from, I'm afraid.
3) Lots. It's what Still Spell, Silent Spell, And Eschew Materials are for... when combined with the broken Invoke Magic.

Do note that most of these Dragon-As-ATM scenarios have the wizard using Win Button spells like Shivering Touch (3d6 dex damage will take down 70-80% of opponents; especially if Maximized, Empowered, or both - and it's low enough level that a Wiz-20 can do that), Celerity (immediate action standard action - with Foresight, it's an "I go first, despite your +30 dex mod, Improved Initiative, and Epic Improved Initiative" spell; it's also an "I go twice" spell; combined further with Time Stop, and it's an "I win" spell) or Invoke Magic (a "neener neener, I can cast spells but you can't" spell when combined with Antimagic Field).

The *one*core-only scenario painted thus far with the Wizard-20 winning relies on Readied actions in a Time Stop (fairly cheesy, in and of itself, but Core) - and is stopped fairly effectively by a simple Ring of Evasion on the dragon's claw (Emporer Tippy(?) was getting all his Delayed Blast Fireballs out of scrolls - which would have a save DC of about 22, vs. the Dragon's +19 reflex save for the targetted CR 20 Black Wyrm in question), and can't readily handle a Dragon who casts AMF afterwards. It also relied on a particular ruling of interaction between Time Stop and Delayed Blast Fireball - that is, that you can time it so that the DBF's go off after the Time Stop but before the dragon can go, when the spell expresses it as "rounds" not "initiative count" or anything of that nature.

[Arbitrarity]

Hmmm... remember kids, no initiates of mystra.

Otherwise, bad things happen.