Can you talk/move normally while casting a silent/stilled spell?

[erok0809]

Hey, I don't think this is covered by the rules, so I was wondering what you guys would do in this situation. If someone casts a silent, stilled spell, it removes the need for verbal and somatic components. Can they now move and/or talk normally while the spell is being cast, or is it basically a silent and still thing? The reason I ask is I'd like to have someone be able to cast silent and still touch spells in the middle of a conversation, and then with a simple handshake at the end or a pat on the shoulder deliver the touch spell without the recipient or anyone else in the area knowing that a spell was cast. Would you allow this?
If not, how could I get this to happen? I need to be able to plant necrotic cysts in people without their knowledge. Thanks!

[Eno Remnant]

I don't think you need to go that far. Most spells don't specify what the verbal and somatic components of their spells are. While most people assume this means you're chanting faux-Latin and waving your hands about dramatically, there's nothing in the rules stating that this is so.

As such, I think you could absolutely get away with the verbal component being a how do you do, and the somatic a handshake. Or anything, really, so long as it works for you.

Of course, if your DM won't let that fly, then they probably won't let you cast a Silent spell and speak at the same time. Certainly, a Stilled spell is still an action, so shaking someone's hand (which such a DM would probably call an action) would interfere with the casting (unless your DM says handshaking is a move action. Then you can probably get away with it).

In basic terms, a liberal DM will let you do it without Still/Silent Spell. A strict DM probably won't let you do it at all.

[erok0809]

Well I'm the DM in this case, but I like to be fair and play by the rules for the most part. I'd like to say that it happens, but I like to have confirmation from other people so that if I'm questioned I can have a rules-and-other-people backed reason. I don't like to use too much "I'm the DM so it happens." I also do tend to think of the verbal and somatic components of spells as like "magic-speak" and weird hand signs, so I wouldn't go so far to say a handshake and normal conversation could be the normal somatic and verbal components, but I also am not sure what I think about the silent and still thing, which is why I'm asking for other opinions.

[Eno Remnant]

Well, I'm the liberal kind of DM. I say what makes it magical is the energy being put into it, and the components are just a way to convey that energy. Also, it's way more fun to throw a quip in while you're casting a spell (Casting Color Spray and shouting "Taste the rainbow!" being a notable one).

Since that's not your cup of tea, I'd say that Still/Silent Spell works that way. Not because of any rules or experience, but because you're the DM. And I get that you want to avoid saying "I am the DM, so it is so", but that's not really a problem. DM fiat is only a real problem when it's used to stiff a party.

In the past, if I've felt my party could use a break or had a cool idea, I let them have it. So long as it was reasonable, they could do it. What's happening there is that you're exercising Rule 0: Ultimately, the DM has the power to make or break the rules.

However, what isn't actually covered in Rule 0 is the intent. A necessary addendum to the rule is that while the DM has that power, it exists to enrich and improve gameplay. You have that power to make the game more fun for everyone involved.

So basically, don't shy away from doing it if it's okay with you. As far as I can tell, it doesn't break the game or cause any butthurt with the involved parties.

[balegar]

The character could hold the charge of a touch spell indefinitely, so he could cast it long before the conversation started. There's also the conceal spell casting skill trick. I've heard people say a silent stilled spell cannot be detected but I don't know of any raw to confirm that so I always required the skill trick.

As far as speech, I would allow it since u could consider it a free action.

[Duke of Urrel]

I'm one of those mean dungeon masters who wouldn't allow you to do this, at least not without making a special skill check.

Speaking is a free action, but there are two special rules. One is that you can speak outside of your turn. The other is that "speaking more than few sentences is beyond the limit of a free action." I interpret this to mean that you can utter no more than 25 words per round.

I also believe you can't easily concentrate on something while talking to someone else about something completely unrelated to what you're concentrating on. Try reading a book while at the same time talking to someone about something completely unrelated to the book. It's not easy. At the very least, I would require you to make a Concentration check (at DC 15 plus the spell's spell level) to pull off the feat of talking about an unrelated topic while you cast a Silent and Still spell. If your Concentration check fails, your spell should fail.

I allow you to talk either before or after you cast a spell, of course, and I don't require you to make a Concentration check to do this. However, I reason that casting a standard-action spell probably reduces your word allotment from 25 down to eight or so.

[erok0809]

I'm not opposed to imposing a skill check on the character, although in this case, with that DC for the skill check it would be trivial and he would make it without a roll. I could use the skill trick as well potentially, although I'd have to waive the "once per encounter" rule and allow it to happen to all of the party. This is why I was asking in the first place, I want a feel for other people's opinions on this.

The character in question would be the BBEG, who is the king of the country, and a high level (has 9ths) wizard. For reasons, the party would be brought before him (before they know he'd be the BBEG probably) and he would want to implant a necrotic cyst in all of them to have a potential for blackmail or control later if they decide to disobey his orders for them. He wouldn't want them to know he was doing it though, because I definitely see them attacking him (and subsequently dying, this would be early in the campaign before they would be an appropriate level) if they knew what he was doing.

[Venger]

Hey, I don't think this is covered by the rules, so I was wondering what you guys would do in this situation. If someone casts a silent, stilled spell, it removes the need for verbal and somatic components. Can they now move and/or talk normally while the spell is being cast, or is it basically a silent and still thing? The reason I ask is I'd like to have someone be able to cast silent and still touch spells in the middle of a conversation, and then with a simple handshake at the end or a pat on the shoulder deliver the touch spell without the recipient or anyone else in the area knowing that a spell was cast. Would you allow this?
If not, how could I get this to happen? I need to be able to plant necrotic cysts in people without their knowledge. Thanks!

This is covered by the rules.

Silent spell doesn't say "you can't talk," so you can. If someting's not stated, then it's not RAW.

They don't have to talk, but it doesn't remove the ability to.

this is how the actual rules work, so you're all good.

since this would probably be for some kind of zombie mind control spell, check out player's guide to eberron's "price of loyalty," the only spell in the game with no components (save the focus.) give the guy a coin, if he fails the save, charm person. best part: pass or fail, he explicitly doesn't know you even cast a spell.

EDIT: PCs would still be aware, since your character always knows when he make a save, feeling a hostile prickle of energy. even if no one in your party hit the spellcraft check, they'd know he tried to do something. it could still be detected normally later, so it wouldn't work the way you want it to.

[Flickerdart]

I don't think you need to go that far. Most spells don't specify what the verbal and somatic components of their spells are. While most people assume this means you're chanting faux-Latin and waving your hands about dramatically, there's nothing in the rules stating that this is so.
Except there is.

PHB: "A verbal component is a spoken incantation" and "a somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand" that requires at least one hand free. There is no definition of "incantation" that matches "conversational language," and a handshake can be described as measured and precise by perhaps only constructs.

[erok0809]

PCs would still be aware, since your character always knows when he make a save, feeling a hostile prickle of energy. even if no one in your party hit the spellcraft check, they'd know he tried to do something. it could still be detected normally later, so it wouldn't work the way you want it to.

I see this is true for successful saves, but I see nothing about them knowing if they were to fail the save in the rules. From http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow


A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.
Emphasis mine.

Also, there would be no spellcraft check since they wouldn't know the spell was cast, since it was silent and stilled. As for detection later, sure, yeah, but they might not have any reason to check if they don't know it happened.

[Venger]

Except there is.

PHB: "A verbal component is a spoken incantation" and "a somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand" that requires at least one hand free. There is no definition of "incantation" that matches "conversational language," and a handshake can be described as measured and precise by perhaps only constructs.

we've figured out before that somatic components are carried out through the motion of one's elbows

even then, most constructs have thumbs.

[Crake]

I don't think you need to go that far. Most spells don't specify what the verbal and somatic components of their spells are. While most people assume this means you're chanting faux-Latin and waving your hands about dramatically, there's nothing in the rules stating that this is so.

As such, I think you could absolutely get away with the verbal component being a how do you do, and the somatic a handshake. Or anything, really, so long as it works for you.

Considering that spells provoke attacks of opportunity, even when still or silent, they are obvious moments of concentration that can be exploited. Rulings like this make certain other abilities pointless as well, like the conceal spellcasting skill trick, designed to do exactly what you would let your players do by default apparently.

Personally I would say that if you cast a still-silent-spell, if you want to seem like you're otherwise acting normally, you would need to perform a concentration check as if you were casting defensively. This is the rule I've used for SLAs being cast mid conversation or without obvious notability (SLAs provoke when used as well, despite being still/silent by nature), and I think it makes sense. In combat, it shows you casting a spell while maintaining the flow of combat, so I think in a conversation, the same DC makes sense to maintain the flow of the conversation.

[holywhippet]

There is a feat in Complete Adventurer called Disguise Spell which lets you cast a spell while in the middle of a performance. You use it by making a perform check while casting and observers have to make an equal or greater spot check to realize you are casting. You can only take this feat if you have bardic music as a class feature although it doesn't say you need to be casting bard spells with this feat. Since it doesn't say what kind of performance you have to be giving you could use it while singing, talking or dancing - provided you have the relevant perform skill.

I recall one of the Forgotten Realms novels, Song of the Saurials, had a cleric covertly casting a detect lies spell by humming a short tune while seemingly taking a short nap. She was a cleric of the god of music though.

[Odin's Eyepatch]

There is a feat called Nonverbal Spell, which allows you to substitute the normal verbal incantation for just a general sound. This means that you can effectively speak while casting, since the words you are saying ARE the verbal component (you could also groan, cough, sneeze, or laugh, as long as you make a sound to supply the verbal component). This is not a metamagic feat, funnily enough.

Races of Stone introduce using a sleight of hand check to conceal your spellcasting (opposed by the enemies spot/listen checks), so you could use that too, if you wanted to.

I would personally rule that you still have to concentrate for a couple of seconds when casting a still silent spell (so you can't do anything else during that time, just like a spell-like ability), which may require a relevant check to hide/notice the spellcasting (depending heavily on the situation).

However, a stilled (Nonverbal) spell should normally be easy to pass off in the middle of a discussion, since there is no pause in your speech while you cast the spell, and I think would be the best way to cast the spell without drawing attention.

[Renen]

I don't think you need to go that far. Most spells don't specify what the verbal and somatic components of their spells are. While most people assume this means you're chanting faux-Latin and waving your hands about dramatically, there's nothing in the rules stating that this is so.

As such, I think you could absolutely get away with the verbal component being a how do you do, and the somatic a handshake. Or anything, really, so long as it works for you.

Of course, if your DM won't let that fly, then they probably won't let you cast a Silent spell and speak at the same time. Certainly, a Stilled spell is still an action, so shaking someone's hand (which such a DM would probably call an action) would interfere with the casting (unless your DM says handshaking is a move action. Then you can probably get away with it).

In basic terms, a liberal DM will let you do it without Still/Silent Spell. A strict DM probably won't let you do it at all.

Actually afaik spells DO have specific words you need to say, and unless this spell was developed thousands of years ago with a "how are you" verbal component, then you can't just use that. But I do remember there's a feat that let's you have the verbal component actually be any words you say. So you still gotta talk, but it can be any words.

[erok0809]

Okay, so what I think I'll do then is use Nonverbal spell to make it so he can talk however he wants while he's casting the spell, and then use still spell and make it so he stops moving for a few seconds while he casts. That way the conversation can continue as normal, and they should be none the wiser. I could make him make a concentration check as well, but with the DC at 15+spell level, as if he were casting defensively, at his level he makes that without a roll for the level of spell he'd be casting.

[Fitz10019]

The king could also ask open-ended questions as if he were genuinely interested in the adventurers ("How did you ____ the ___?"). His concentration on the stilled silent spell could pass for focus on their spoken answer. The trick the king has to accomplish will be to get every PC to answer something at length. As DM, decide in advance how long of an answer is long enough, and then stick to that required length (18 syllables, for example). If a PC answers too shortly, the king needs to try a new question or move on the next PC, and he has burned/lost one casting of that stilled silent spell. This would give the PCs a fair chance to pass with luck, or to become suspicious enough to ask for a Sense Motive on why the king is asking all these questions. Don't give away the Sense Motive for free (or, at least, I wouldn't).

[Remember Space Seed, the Star Trek episode with Khan? At the formal dinner, Spock asks a lot of questions while Kirk quietly observes. Your king could have someone who hostilely makes the PCs justify their actions, while the king chimes in with 'tut,tut' and backslaps from time to time -- your classic good cop - bad cop. Use this option if you want the PCs to have only a minimal chance of catching on.]

[Jay R]

A still, silent spell is still a standard action. The caster has to concentrate, and she can't make a touch attack the same round.

[Curmudgeon]

Concentration

To cast a spell, you must concentrate. If something interrupts your concentration while you’re casting, you must make a Concentration check or lose the spell. The more distracting the interruption and the higher the level of the spell you are trying to cast, the higher the DC is. If you fail the check, you lose the spell just as if you had cast it to no effect.
It'll be up the the DM to set the DC, but a Concentration check is required if you undertake some activity which would interrupt your concentration while casting the spell.

[Venger]

A still, silent spell is still a standard action. The caster has to concentrate, and she can't make a touch attack the same round.

Wrong. That's how they work.


Touch Spells in Combat
Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

[SinsI]

I'd say Swift Action spells can be cast while talking. Everything else cannot be cast without tremendous Concentration checks.

[Venger]

I'd say Swift Action spells can be cast while talking. Everything else cannot be cast without tremendous Concentration checks.

you can't cast verbal component spells while you're talking, it's against the rules. swifts may not impose concentrations, but they still have components. unless you meant a silent, stilled, quickened necrotic cyst (already up to an 8th)

[Fitz10019]

This is a distinction between talking and being in a conversation. A lot of you are saying he needs a high concentration check to do this while talking, but he can do it easily without a concentration check while in a conversation as long as it's the other person who is actively pumping air through vocal cords for long enough.

[Hazrond]

he would want to implant a necrotic cyst in all of them to have a potential for blackmail or control later if they decide to disobey his orders for them.

Sorry to cut in but doesn't Necrotic Cyst have a save? How are you planning to deal with that? (I mean, the characters might not know they are infected but the players might get the idea)

[Venger]

Sorry to cut in but doesn't Necrotic Cyst have a save? How are you planning to deal with that? (I mean, the characters might not know they are infected but the players might get the idea)


A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells

yes, it's been mentioned before, but promptly ignored.

players and characters will know about it when it happens.

[Ettina]

Don't you still trigger an attack of opportunity for a still/silent spell cast in melee? That strongly implies that it takes concentration to cast.

[Curmudgeon]

Don't you still trigger an attack of opportunity for a still/silent spell cast in melee? That strongly implies that it takes concentration to cast.
Yes, and I already quoted the rules about concentration for spellcasting. The only way not to provoke is to cast so quickly (immediate or swift action) that you don't let your guard down long enough for an enemy to take advantage.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Attacks of Opportunity only trigger if you are in threatened squares. If your in a polite conversation with your liege lord, whom you do not suspect of any wrong doing or intent to harm you, you do not threaten those squares.

[erok0809]

Yes they get a save, but I'm going to have to trust that the players don't metagame if they don't make the save. Alternately, I could roll the save for them, and tell them what they know afterwards. Then if they don't make it I don't tell them anything. The srd only says they know on a successful save; therefore, if they fail, they don't know unless it's readily obvious, which necrotic cyst has the option not to be.

Also, if they make the save, I could pass it off with a bluff check, saying he was casting charm person to try to make the target his friend, and he could apologize for the deceit. Then he would try again later.

[Curmudgeon]

Attacks of Opportunity only trigger if you are in threatened squares. If your in a polite conversation with your liege lord, whom you do not suspect of any wrong doing or intent to harm you, you do not threaten those squares.
That doesn't follow from the rules. Threatening is independent of whether you're already in combat.
threaten

To be able to attack in melee without moving from your current space. A creature typically threatens all squares within its natural reach, even when it is not its turn to take an action. An AoO based on activity in the squares you threaten does require you to be in combat, but the provocation for that AoO could be enough to trigger combat.

[Flickerdart]

However, "if you’re unarmed, you don’t normally threaten any squares" so you'd need IUS, natural weapons, or a weapon drawn to react.

[Segev]

Another thing to consider is that, for purposes of anything that's likely to be happening within six seconds (i.e. one round), talking is a free action. Cast your silent spell and then say something as two separate actions, if nothing else.

[SinsI]

Another thing to consider is that, for purposes of anything that's likely to be happening within six seconds (i.e. one round), talking is a free action. Cast your silent spell and then say something as two separate actions, if nothing else.

Actions are taken one at a time. If you are casting a spell with 10 minute casting time, and something happens in the meantime - you cannot speak during its casting.

[Curmudgeon]

Actions are taken one at a time. If you are casting a spell with 10 minute casting time, and something happens in the meantime - you cannot speak during its casting.
That's not the case for free actions.
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort, and over the span of the round, their impact is so minor that they are considered free. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally.
A free action can be performed in conjunction with some other action.

[atemu1234]

There is a feat in Complete Adventurer called Disguise Spell which lets you cast a spell while in the middle of a performance. You use it by making a perform check while casting and observers have to make an equal or greater spot check to realize you are casting. You can only take this feat if you have bardic music as a class feature although it doesn't say you need to be casting bard spells with this feat. Since it doesn't say what kind of performance you have to be giving you could use it while singing, talking or dancing - provided you have the relevant perform skill.

I recall one of the Forgotten Realms novels, Song of the Saurials, had a cleric covertly casting a detect lies spell by humming a short tune while seemingly taking a short nap. She was a cleric of the god of music though.

I now want an assassin wizard with a level of bard.

[bean illus]

I would say that a concentration check is needed. Quite simple for low level spells, but with a slight chance of failure for high level spells, and or stressful situations/etc. Enough stress/distractions/etc could add a +2 to the DC.

No need to make it a cake walk.