Nilbog Question

[HereBeMonsters]

Nilbog (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/nilbog)
Ok as you can see these creatures are rather.. odd.

I encountered them in a recent game I was part of. Our dungeon-dex character couldn't tell them apart from normal goblins and so our Barbarian charged in and began to swing his big stick around to nail them. He was dishing out some serious damage but the DM kept saying that no matter how much he slashed at the gang of goblins none of them seemed to go down. What was more they where all moving and jumping and when asked to make a perception check he rolled really poorly so he didn't see that they where hiding that they had no wounds.

Well we got our butts kicked as these little buggers came for us and it was only when we used a channel to heal power on them we pushed them back and fled. Now I only only realized what they where later, and I think it is awesome to fight something so unique and totally perfect for a beat stick heavy party.

But this brings me to my questions How can I figure out what they are IC and how does one fight monsters who only die when you heal them to death. when most parties keep them healing channels to a minimum in combat and especially when foes are in the area of effect (Without selective channel)

Side question: How OP would this be to play as a Character?

[nedz]

Nilbogs are an old school trick monster designed to break expectations. When parties expect to dispatch hundreds of Goblins easily, the DM could throw one of these at the party for LOLs.


Side question: How OP would this be to play as a Character?

Totally OP

[torrasque666]

Side question: How OP would this be to play as a Character?
It even says on the sidebar "Think twice before allowing this thing." which basically amounts to "your brain's a bit rotten if you think its remotely balanced"

[HereBeMonsters]

Yes but it would be awesome to see a Goblin (Nilbog) in the party that the barbarian throws into a mob of bad guys and watch the chaos insue. Of course the Barbarian will need Weapon Proficiency (Nilbog) lol

[dysprosium]

Yes but it would be awesome to see a Goblin (Nilbog) in the party that the barbarian throws into a mob of bad guys and watch the chaos insue. Of course the Barbarian will need Weapon Proficiency (Nilbog) lol

Isn't there some kind of Barbarian archetype in Pathfinder that allows the character to wield living things as weapons? Would the nilbog be the perfect answer then?

But nedz is correct on the history of the origin of the creature. It was a Gygaxian creation meant to mess around with his players. It was first printed in the original Fiend Folio and I want to say it was part of the Cult of Tharizdun module.

[sakuuya]

Ohhhh, I thought you were talking about these things:

https://popcornographyblog.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/30.png
So I guess my advice on how to figure out what they are IC is to ask the DM whether they look like that.

Serious answer: A DC 11 Knowledge (Local) check let's you "Identify a monster's abilities and weaknesses" for a CR 1 humanoid.

[HereBeMonsters]

The disease only affects goblins and is not transmitted by them. Nilbogs resemble goblins in appearance and are indistinguishable from them.

So if they are indistinguishable from them would a would a DC 11 just tell you they are goblins then?

[dysprosium]

The disease only affects goblins and is not transmitted by them. Nilbogs resemble goblins in appearance and are indistinguishable from them.

So if they are indistinguishable from them would a would a DC 11 just tell you they are goblins then?

That's how I would rule it at my table. The nilbogism would not be perceptible with the check.

[HereBeMonsters]

Which is kind of messing with us because we don't know what the hell is keeping them alive when they are being hit over and over with serious damage. I only understood that it was the channel healing that sent them scampering off because I found out what they where. IC we thought it was due to the magic shown.

[Ellowryn]

Them being indistinguishable at first is fine, but anyone looking on after a few rounds should be capable of making a Knowledge (Local) check to tell that something is at least up and possibly what the cause is. Otherwise the fight is a TPK as at low levels damage is the primary ability with which players defeat challenges.

[HereBeMonsters]

Like I said I think it might just have been a higher DC due to them appearing like goblins. I don't think it would take too terribly long to notice that they are immune to physical attacks and begin using healing spells on them but well that is a mean trick the more I think of it.

I mean at low levels you buy a wand of Cure Light Wounds and that is a sizable investment, Channeling is limited and of course having the cleric convert all his spells to a cure spell is a lot of resources being spent on healing. Or in this case damaging the foe. But losing resources to heal ourselves later on.

I think he rolled a 14 or 15 for the Knowledge roll, poor dice not ranks so its possible when we meet up again he might roll higher.

I do want to play a Nilbog Alchemist in Pf now... fear the mad bomber of doom!

[nedz]

But nedz is correct on the history of the origin of the creature. It was a Gygaxian creation meant to mess around with his players. It was first printed in the original Fiend Folio and I want to say it was part of the Cult of Tharizdun module.

Created by Roger Musson rather than Gygax (according my my copy of FF). He's credited for a few monsters so it probably was an in house TSR monster (a lot of the FF monsters were originally home-brewed by various players).

[Karl Aegis]

So they can just stand in a circle full attacking each other until you run out of curative effects and hope you don't kill them all with Save-or-Die effects. Most people wouldn't run the very specific build you need to actually kill these things with curative magic. Hope you are all full casters with a full loadout of SoDs or you risk a TPK from a decently optimized group of these.

[Segev]

Necropolitan Nilbogs would be particularly nasty to have to deal with. Even curative effects "heal" them. You have to explicitly hit them with "inflict" spells. This is even rarer than "cure" spells.

[HereBeMonsters]

The ones in the example have 5 HP and can have a max total of 10 HP (Double HP). A 1d8+Lvl can hit 10 HP pretty easily if you are above level 1, our party is at 4 and that is why I was trying to figure out what to do for this encounter. We have a cleric who can cast 1d8+4 cures so he needs to roll a 6 or higher on the dice to drop 1 instantly. I have a Bard who is the same level so I can do the 1d8+Lvl as well so we can easily manage to drop a few but yeah you have a point they just stab one another till their better.

[HereBeMonsters]

Necropolitan Nilbogs would be particularly nasty to have to deal with. Even curative effects "heal" them. You have to explicitly hit them with "inflict" spells. This is even rarer than "cure" spells.

Tag on Wedded to History and you have an immortal pain in the ass who can take down virtually anyone.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Necropolitan Nilbogs would be particularly nasty to have to deal with. Even curative effects "heal" them. You have to explicitly hit them with "inflict" spells. This is even rarer than "cure" spells.
I was just thinking about this. An undead nilbog is possibly even more confusing than a regular one. Cure spells heal them, damage heals them, negative energy harms them, but then death effects don't affect them at all.

[dysprosium]

Created by Roger Musson rather than Gygax (according my my copy of FF). He's credited for a few monsters so it probably was an in house TSR monster (a lot of the FF monsters were originally home-brewed by various players).

Could you imagine playing in a 1st edition game with all of those guys?

[ComaVision]

I'd like to have just one leading a Bugbear group (because they can't kill it) against a Level 5 or so party. No chance of TPK from the wretch but still confusing to the party.

[Karl Aegis]

Could you imagine playing in a 1st edition game with all of those guys?

Yes. I would have been attacked by an obelisk after I walked past it. It would have been dumb. Same thing with Xavers. Who ever thought a Xaver was a good idea?

[nedz]

Could you imagine playing in a 1st edition game with all of those guys?

I don't know, possibly ?

I don't see why not other than they lived 5,000 miles away :smallbiggrin:

I did play 1E from the beginning.

[Susano-wo]

Created by Roger Musson rather than Gygax (according my my copy of FF). He's credited for a few monsters so it probably was an in house TSR monster (a lot of the FF monsters were originally home-brewed by various players).
Dammit. :smallfurious: You saying this made me examine their name to see if there was some cheesy joke.:smalleek:
Its goblin backwards :smallsigh:

Also, don't their arms hang to the ground? Sounds like a pretty good indicator, right? :smallamused:

[nyjastul69]

Created by Roger Musson rather than Gygax (according my my copy of FF). He's credited for a few monsters so it probably was an in house TSR monster (a lot of the FF monsters were originally home-brewed by various players).

IIRC, most of the original FF monsters came from White Wolf magazine. I *think* the only ones not from WW mag were Gygax creations taken from previous publications. I don't think Gygax created anything whole cloth for the book.

ETA: I don't think anything not created by him was a TSR, or Greyhawk, or Blackmoor homebrew. I believe they had all previously been published in one form or another. So, strictly speaking , I don't think anything was created for the FF. It took stuff from WW and from previously produced magazines or modules.

[nedz]

IIRC, most of the original FF monsters came from White Wolf magazine. I *think* the only ones not from WW mag were Gygax creations taken from previous publications. I don't think Gygax created anything whole cloth for the book.

ETA: I don't think anything not created by him was a TSR, or Greyhawk, or Blackmoor homebrew. I believe they had all previously been published in one form or another. So, strictly speaking , I don't think anything was created for the FF. It took stuff from WW and from previously produced magazines or modules.

The sources of the monsters were from White Dwarf or TSR modules. The ones from White Dwarf were, usually, ones readers had sent in — so these writers only got their one monster credited to them, which is how you tell them apart. In 1984 White Dwarf changed from being D&D centric to being Warhammer centric.

[nyjastul69]

The sources of the monsters were from White Dwarf or TSR modules. The ones from White Dwarf were, usually, ones readers had sent in — so these writers only got their one monster credited to them, which is how you tell them apart. In 1984 White Dwarf changed from being D&D centric to being Warhammer centric.

Cripes! I said White Wolf didn't I? I meant the British publication you just corrected me on, White Dwarf. Sorry about that folks.

That still doesn't make anything in FF homebrew, once published, it's official. At least in hard cover form.

[nedz]

Cripes! I said White Wolf didn't I? I meant the British publication you just corrected me on. White Dwarf. Sorry about that folks.

Actually, IIRC, I think several of the monsters were created by White Dwarf staff as well.

[nyjastul69]

Actually, IIRC, I think several of the monsters were created by White Dwarf staff as well.

That's my understanding as well. The FF monsters were garnered from WD magazine, Dragon Mag or TSR modules. Ya know, I almost typed WW again. :/

I'm assuming some may have come from Dragon Magazine. I haven't looked at the original FF in years. I wonder if classic TSR designers like David Sutherland, Jeff Grubb, etc. Have any credits in there. Believe it or not, the original FF is my all time favorite D&D book. It was the first one I bought. It also has the flumph. Why do I like the flumph? Well, IIRC, it's the only naturally/natively LG beastie in the book. Aleaxes could potentially be of any alignment.

[lord_khaine]

This is seriously one of the most stupid monsters i have ever seen, and i do belive whoever came up with it deserves a firm smack on the head.

Though its not even because my biggest problem with it is how overpowered it is, its more how badly it ruins the immersion of the game.

[StreamOfTheSky]

This is seriously one of the most stupid monsters i have ever seen, and i do belive whoever came up with it deserves a firm smack on the head.

Though its not even because my biggest problem with it is how overpowered it is, its more how badly it ruins the immersion of the game.

I appreciate how it's unique, but I can't stand it regardless. Only divine casters and maybe bards can even harm it, anyone else needs potions of cure spells, which are really freaking expensive at low levels, or else they're helpless against there guys. That makes them even worse than swarms, another "half the players should just go play videogames for the next hour" creature.

They're cute as a joke encounter that's trivial and just there to mess w/ you, like a Rust Monster. The issue with them, like w/ Rust Monster, is that some DMs will inevitably use them in serious encounters and not just as a non-threatening joke.

[nedz]

I'm assuming some may have come from Dragon Magazine. I haven't looked at the original FF in years. I wonder if classic TSR designers like David Sutherland, Jeff Grubb, etc. Have any credits in there. Believe it or not, the original FF is my all time favorite D&D book. It was the first one I bought. It also has the flumph. Why do I like the flumph? Well, IIRC, it's the only naturally/natively LG beastie in the book. Aleaxes could potentially be of any alignment.

Nothing by David Sutherland or Jeff Grubb, though several by Gary.

[Tars Tarkas]

I appreciate how it's unique, but I can't stand it regardless. Only divine casters and maybe bards can even harm it, anyone else needs potions of cure spells, which are really freaking expensive at low levels, or else they're helpless against there guys. That makes them even worse than swarms, another "half the players should just go play videogames for the next hour" creature.

They're cute as a joke encounter that's trivial and just there to mess w/ you, like a Rust Monster. The issue with them, like w/ Rust Monster, is that some DMs will inevitably use them in serious encounters and not just as a non-threatening joke.
They can be taken down with ability score damage as well, they are not immune to paralyses from what I can see, Mind affects, or other similar non-hp draining effects.

[StreamOfTheSky]

They can be taken down with ability score damage as well, they are not immune to paralyses from what I can see, Mind affects, or other similar non-hp draining effects.

All of those are still less common than a simple AoE blast spell, so they're still more bs than even swarms. And martials are still screwed.

Can they be coup de grace'd if you grapple-pin-hogtie them?

[Psyren]

I appreciate how it's unique, but I can't stand it regardless. Only divine casters and maybe bards can even harm it, anyone else needs potions of cure spells, which are really freaking expensive at low levels, or else they're helpless against there guys. That makes them even worse than swarms, another "half the players should just go play videogames for the next hour" creature.

They're cute as a joke encounter that's trivial and just there to mess w/ you, like a Rust Monster. The issue with them, like w/ Rust Monster, is that some DMs will inevitably use them in serious encounters and not just as a non-threatening joke.

Tiny swarms are perfectly fine opponents, and even Diminutive or smaller ones can be dealt with if players are simply prepared.


This is seriously one of the most stupid monsters i have ever seen, and i do belive whoever came up with it deserves a firm smack on the head.

Though its not even because my biggest problem with it is how overpowered it is, its more how badly it ruins the immersion of the game.

Luckily it is not really part of PF as it is 3rd-party.

[Venger]

Tiny swarms are perfectly fine opponents, and even Diminutive or smaller ones can be dealt with if players are simply prepared.

no, tiny swarms aren't fine opponents.

[Extra Anchovies]

Can they be coup de grace'd if you grapple-pin-hogtie them?

I think so. The save-or-die is separate from the damage dealt - you can deal someone 2 damage with a c-d-g and still kill them.

[Psyren]

no, tiny swarms aren't fine opponents.

Ba-dum-tish :smallbiggrin:

[StreamOfTheSky]

I think so. The save-or-die is separate from the damage dealt - you can deal someone 2 damage with a c-d-g and still kill them.

But if you're incapable of dealing hp damage with a coup de grace because you're using a weapon and not a cure spell?

I guess the next question is, can they be suffocated or drowned? Which is going to be tough even when bound if you can't knock them unconscious first. How does a martial character kill these things? No matter the answer, seems pretty clear there's no hope when faced with multiple of them, given how time-consuming it is doing any of these methods.

[atemu1234]

This is a little hilarious.

But no, no player should ever be allowed to play one.

It's wrong.
So wrong.
So absolutely, beautifully wrong.

[Susano-wo]

hmm, the way its worded, I would say that you could coup de grace them. They heal instead of taking the damage, but that's still the damage you dealt them, so a death save triggers. :smallamused:

But yeah, what immersion breaking, dumb monsters. I don't even see any explanation for why they gain health from meat damage. Just, poof, they do! ha HA!:smallsigh: