Rainbow Servant Cleric spell access?

[schreier]

If you were creating a Theurge/Ultimate Magus using Rainbow servant - which class gets access to the cleric spells? I would have thought that it was the class that you increased spellcasting for level 10, but upon reading - it doesn't seem so clear.

It says:
"A 10th-level rainbow servant can learn and cast spells from the cleric list, even if they don't appear on the lists of any spellcasting class he has. Such spells are cast as divine if they don't appear on the sorcerer/wizard or bard spell lists. This class feature grants access to the spells, but not extra spells per day."

The way it's written seems to strongly indicate that every class you have would gain access. Thus, a sorcerer/wizard, or beguiler/wizard would have cleric spells available in both classes? Is that how you read the text?

Compare to the language on the silver pyromancer:
"In addition, starting at 1st level, you can treat
spells from the paladin spell list as though they were arcane spells on the spell list for the arcane spellcasting class in which you could cast 3rd-level spells before becoming a silver pyromancer." - it defines the class gaining access as the one you used as a prereq to get into the class

Is this how you read it?

[Troacctid]

Unlike Silver Pyromancer, Rainbow Servant does not add the spells to your class spell list for any class. It just allows you to learn and cast spells from the Cleric list in addition to any other lists you have access to.

So the Sorcerer/Wizard/Rainbow Servant could scribe Cleric spells into his Wizard spellbook and learn Cleric spells as Sorcerer spells known. The Beguiler/Wizard/Rainbow Servant could scribe Cleric spells into her Wizard spellbook and could choose Cleric spells for her Advanced Learning class feature.

[Venger]

If you were creating a Theurge/Ultimate Magus using Rainbow servant - which class gets access to the cleric spells? I would have thought that it was the class that you increased spellcasting for level 10, but upon reading - it doesn't seem so clear.

It says:
"A 10th-level rainbow servant can learn and cast spells from the cleric list, even if they don't appear on the lists of any spellcasting class he has. Such spells are cast as divine if they don't appear on the sorcerer/wizard or bard spell lists. This class feature grants access to the spells, but not extra spells per day."

The way it's written seems to strongly indicate that every class you have would gain access. Thus, a sorcerer/wizard, or beguiler/wizard would have cleric spells available in both classes? Is that how you read the text?

Compare to the language on the silver pyromancer:
"In addition, starting at 1st level, you can treat
spells from the paladin spell list as though they were arcane spells on the spell list for the arcane spellcasting class in which you could cast 3rd-level spells before becoming a silver pyromancer." - it defines the class gaining access as the one you used as a prereq to get into the class

Is this how you read it?

There's no interpretation here, you are confusing spells known with spells available.

If you are a prix fixe caster (beguiler, warmage, or dread necromancer) then you automatically know all spells on your list. when you take rainbow servant, you now have access to all cleric spells.

if you are a sorcerer or whatever, they're on your list, but you still have to spend slots known on them, so they're basically worthless.

no, only the class you progress via rainbow servant gets access to these spells.

if you're a beguiler/wizard going into ultimate magus, pick beguiler, then you have them all at your fingertips instead of having to dumpster dive for them.

[Brova]

The Beguiler/Wizard/Rainbow Servant could scribe Cleric spells into her Wizard spellbook and could choose Cleric spells for her Advanced Learning class feature.

I don't know what Troacctid is smoking, but he seems to have misunderstood how Rainbow Servant and Beguiler interact. You don't have to pick Cleric spells for advanced learning, you just know all of them.

[Troacctid]

I don't know what Troacctid is smoking, but he seems to have misunderstood how Rainbow Servant and Beguiler interact. You don't have to pick Cleric spells for advanced learning, you just know all of them.

That's one interpretation, but the text only says you can "learn and cast" the spells, not that they're added to your class spell list. Beguilers only know their class spell list; they only learn new spells through Advanced Learning. Since Rainbow Servant doesn't actually add the spells to your class spell list, you don't necessarily know them automatically. I mean, you could interpret it that way, but it's ambiguous at best--you could also interpret it as only letting the Beguiler access the spells through Advanced Learning, or as allowing the Beguiler to research the spells, or as only giving access to Cleric spells for new spell levels that the Beguiler gains access to after becoming a 10th level Rainbow Servant, or even as adding them to your spells known even for classes that don't normally know their whole list.

This is again a contrast with Silver Pyromancer Impure Prince or Improved Oneiromancy or whatever, which would unambiguously give a Beguiler extra spells known, without any real room for interpretation.

[nedz]

This is again a contrast with Silver Pyromancer, which would unambiguously give a Beguiler all Paladin spells, without any real room for interpretation.

It is unambiguous — you're right about that part.


You cannot add these spells to the warmage spell list, or to the list of another similar class that can freely access all spells on its class spell list.

[Brova]

That's one interpretation, but the text only says you can "learn and cast" the spells, not that they're added to your class spell list. Beguilers only know their class spell list; they only learn new spells through Advanced Learning.

Actually, Beguiler advanced learning works like this:


you can add a new spell to your list

The Beguiler doesn't have a list of spells known, he has a class list. Which is modified by specific spells from the illusion or enchantment school. Also, consider:


When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the beguiler's spell list. You can cast any spell you know without preparing it ahead of time. Essentially, your spell list is the same as your spells known list.

So the Beguiler's "learning mechanism", such as it is, is to simply add every spell of a new level to his list of spells known. Based on the exact text you might be able to argue he only gets 8th and 9th level Cleric spells, as those are the only levels he gains access to with the Rainbow Servant capstone in effect, but at that point I suspect books would be thrown at your head.

[schreier]

no, only the class you progress via rainbow servant gets access to these spells.

if you're a beguiler/wizard going into ultimate magus, pick beguiler, then you have them all at your fingertips instead of having to dumpster dive for them.

Assuming you have to pick, I definitely agree with the second part (picking the class that gets them all) .. But I'm curious what you're basing the first sentence on ... like I said, that was my first thought - but reading the text, I no longer see it that way ...

The text in rainbow serpent, in part, says "even if they don't appear on the lists of any spellcasting class he has." It uses lists - plural ... unlike the silver pyromancer, which says "on the spell list for the arcane spellcasting class in which you could cast 3rd-level spells before becoming a silver pyromancer."

This could be RAI vs RAW - but RAW seems to indicate that any and all classes you have would gain access ... a mystic ranger, a sorcerer, a beguiler, a warmage, a druid, a bard, etc .... would all gain access to the cleric list.

[Troacctid]

Actually, Beguiler advanced learning works like this:



The Beguiler doesn't have a list of spells known, he has a class list. Which is modified by specific spells from the illusion or enchantment school. Also, consider:



So the Beguiler's "learning mechanism", such as it is, is to simply add every spell of a new level to his list of spells known. Based on the exact text you might be able to argue he only gets 8th and 9th level Cleric spells, as those are the only levels he gains access to with the Rainbow Servant capstone in effect, but at that point I suspect books would be thrown at your head.

Yeah, I mentioned that interpretation, and I think by strict RAW it is better supported by the text than the one that gives you all Cleric spells.

I figure Advanced Learning has to count as learning because it uses the word "learning". (AFAIK, it's just an English word, not a rules term, so yeah.) The other mechanism only makes you "know" spells without necessarily "learning" them. Rainbow Servant doesn't say anything about knowing the spells, just that you can learn them.

The intent, one assumes, is that a Sorcerer would have to take the Cleric spells as spells known in future levels, and a Wizard would have to scribe them into her spellbook--that's how those classes learn new spells. The Cleric spells wouldn't retroactively replace any of your other spells that you gained at a lower level. So how do Beguilers learn new spells? Well, every time they gain access to a new spell level, they automatically "learn" all their spells of that level, right? So, going forward, when you gain access to a new spell level, you can also learn Cleric spells of that level.

[Brova]

Yeah, I mentioned that interpretation, and I think by strict RAW it is better supported by the text than the one that gives you all Cleric spells.

I don't think that's actually true. Think back to what advanced learning says. It adds a spell to your list, of a level you can already cast. Knowing all spells on the Beguiler list of levels he can cast isn't something that happens once to a Beguiler, it's just a passive fact of that level of spells. So when the Rainbow Servant capstone makes available a new set of spells, he just knows all of them. Exactly as if he had selected them for advanced learning.

[Troacctid]

Adding them to your class spell list would absolutely do that, and you'd be pretty ironclad in that ruling with something like Impure Prince. But since Rainbow Servant doesn't add any spells to your class spell list, the same logic doesn't apply. (Lines of logic exist that could get you there, I won't deny that, but the text supporting them has multiple interpretations. Rainbow Servant just isn't written in a way that accounts for the existence Beguilers.)

[nedz]

Adding them to your class spell list would absolutely do that, and you'd be pretty ironclad in that ruling with something like Impure Prince. But since Rainbow Servant doesn't add any spells to your class spell list, the same logic doesn't apply. (Lines of logic exist that could get you there, I won't deny that, but the text supporting them has multiple interpretations. Rainbow Servant just isn't written in a way that accounts for the existence Beguilers.)

You might have a point with this one:

Cleric Spell Access: A 10th-level rainbow servant can learn and cast spells from the cleric list, even if they don’t appear on the lists of any spellcasting class he has.