Psionic's Question

[m149307]

Ok, so I am in a campaign where I am guaranteed to be fighting the Gods. I need to know which is a better class to take in order to combat them: Psy Warrior, or Ardent. I need the class to be Wis based since I am dipping into Shiba Protector

[Flickerdart]

Ardent is much more powerful by virtue of being a full 9-level manifester. Psychic Warriors are good, but not "9th level powers" good. Ardents are also better at dipping, though if you think "+WIS to damage" is a good deal for losing a level, then you're not really ready for fighting gods.

[m149307]

So Ardent is the way to go? And if so, which Mantles (I think they are called) would I focus on?

why is dipping to gain extra damage bad? I currently have a +20 Wis... so it is a good dip imo.

[Renen]

When you fight gods, damage doesn't matter. A wizard can kill something in so many ways without even doing a single point of damage. If you are trying to beat a god by reducing their hp to 0, then you have already lost

[Flickerdart]

It depends on what you're trying to do with your build. Ardents get relatively few powers known so you should be picking them with some kind of combination in mind.

Step 1 is to see if you can use the Mind's Eye articles (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) for Dominant Ideal and Substitute Powers. If yes, step 2 is to get Synchronicity into the Time Mantle, and take that. Now take Linked Power, link Synchronicity to itself for free, and snap time across your knee like a twig.

Of course, that's the max power option. What sort of optimization level are we aiming for here?

[m149307]

Ok... so how should I go about fighting a god? I have honestly never played high level games, so I figured the old "attack until dead" was still a thing.

Umm, any level of Optimization is allowed, but any online articles (IE Mind's Eye) is banned. Strictly 3.5 content only.

[Renen]

Well the thing with high level games is that you try to attack until dead only to find that the god can heal to full every round, and reduces the damage by half. Put

[Venger]

Ok... so how should I go about fighting a god? I have honestly never played high level games, so I figured the old "attack until dead" was still a thing.

Umm, any level of Optimization is allowed, but any online articles (IE Mind's Eye) is banned. Strictly 3.5 content only.

mind's eye articles are 3.5 content. they're not 3rd party/homebrew/dragon magazine junk.

no, "roll dice and deal HP damage" is not a valid strategy against gods (much less at high level play in general)

as ever, when playing a new base class, the handbook (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2710301) is a great place to learn the basics.

which god are you picking on? is your goal merely apotheosis in a finite divine power setting? in that case, kill dorsein or imhoteps, they're just pinatas filled with goodies. if you have any choice in the matter at all, try to pick the weak ones off from the herd. mid-high divine ranks guys require a few more tricks to deal with than minor ones.

[Flickerdart]

It depends on the god. Take a look at divine abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm) though. 50-80 HD, auto-max on every roll for Greater deities, immunities to your favourite things, great SR, spontaneous casting from its domains and the entire Cleric list, knowledge of the future, a free familiar that can be any creature (such as an Epic wizard). And don't forget Salient Divine Abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#salientDivineAbilities) which include gems like "cast any spell at will and then make it permanent" or "become any size" or "invent any spell you want instantly" or "create any magic item or creature from scratch as a full round action" or "counterspell as a free action" or "you are dead, no save" or "no matter how you kill me, I'm back in a few weeks" or "perfect permanent shapechange" or "go first always, even then" or "know everything as a free action".

[Karl Aegis]

Is build even relevant versus gods? Either you have infinite wishes and have every build or you don't have everything and you lose.

[Flickerdart]

Is build even relevant versus gods? Either you have infinite wishes and have every build or you don't have everything and you lose.
Against custom built gods, you basically need to be godlike yourself. The gods in the books are mostly crap and can be taken on by pretty much any decently optimized casters.

[Venger]

Against custom built gods, you basically need to be godlike yourself. The gods in the books are mostly crap and can be taken on by pretty much any decently optimized casters.

divine portfolio balances out 20 levels of expert, right?

[jiriku]

Ok... so how should I go about fighting a god? I have honestly never played high level games, so I figured the old "attack until dead" was still a thing.

Umm, any level of Optimization is allowed, but any online articles (IE Mind's Eye) is banned. Strictly 3.5 content only.

A lot depends on your DM. If the DM has never played at high levels before and has no idea what's what in a high-level game, you can probably just walk in and monkey-stomp anything. If your DM frequents these optimization forums, then you have no hope, none at all. Your situation probably falls somewhere between these two extremes. Ask your DM to clarify what "any level of optimization mean". Ask if "any level" extends to gaining infinite actions, infinite power points, and dealing infinite damage every round. Yes, we know how to do that. Probably your DM will be surprised to learn that such things are possible and will take some time to think of some constraint more reasonable than "anything goes".

[Segev]

Yeah, we could hand you Pun-Pun if truly, literally "any" level of optimization is allowed.

(Pun-Pun has arbitrarily high stats, literally every ability in the game, and acts with every possible cap reached if not broken. He is immune to every form of harm imaginable, up to and including people saying bad things about him.)

[Urpriest]

It should be pointed out that killing things with hp damage actually is one of the more effective things to do at Epic levels. It's just that dealing a solid, large amount of damage, you deal an absurdly huge amount of damage, and most of the challenge is making sure your opponent can actually be affected by it.

It's like how in Magic the Gathering, while you can win with things like Laboratory Maniac or milling your opponent to death, even most infinite combo decks win by dealing damage to the opponent. The trick is when fighting gods you generally do need a near-infinite combo to do your damage with.

[Venger]

It should be pointed out that killing things with hp damage actually is one of the more effective things to do at Epic levels. It's just that dealing a solid, large amount of damage, you deal an absurdly huge amount of damage, and most of the challenge is making sure your opponent can actually be affected by it.

It's like how in Magic the Gathering, while you can win with things like Laboratory Maniac or milling your opponent to death, even most infinite combo decks win by dealing damage to the opponent. The trick is when fighting gods you generally do need a near-infinite combo to do your damage with.

In that case a basic mailman would work. Gods mostly have hit points in the low triple digits

[Urpriest]

In that case a basic mailman would work. Gods mostly have hit points in the low triple digits

Sure. And Ardent (with various optimization tricks) is reasonably good at this, the various Crystal powers are very hard to be immune to and Ardents (with Dominant Ideal) are a great chassis for Metapsionics. That said, you still can have a melee focus...but a level for +20 damage on each attack may not actually be worthwhile.:smallwink: