[3.5] Damage Reduction combined with regeneration or fast healing?

[SecretlyaFish]

So, I read something interesting that I NEVER knew before, and I was pretty stunned and thought woah wtf that is garbage, but then if its true, it made me think "oh, that's why vampires and were creatures have that high LA".

What I read was that, lets say we have a vampire. Silver and magic weapons are the only thing that can overcome its DR. However, while the vampire doesn't have regeneration, it DOES have fast healing. Which in my head, functions like regeneration. Does this mean that damage from weapons that aren't silver and magic gets converted to non lethal (something I thought was bogus and ridiculous)? That just seems too ridiculous. Then we have a werewolf, which has DR:5/silver. If something hits him with a normal weapon, is that damage converted to non lethal due to the fast healing? What happens when a werewolf's non lethal equals his hp?

What happens when a vampire takes non lethal damage? Can undead even take non lethal? Is a vampire unkillable without silver and magic weapons? Is the werewolf unkillable without silver? I'm super confused by all this.

I saw a Solar vs x thread, and in it, the Balor decapitated the solar but they said because the Balors weapon didn't bypass the DR, it was converted to non lethal and the solar would regenerate from it. Maybe I got 3.0 and 3.5 mixed up? If someone could clarify all this for me it would be wonderful. Thanks ladies and gents!

[Troacctid]

However, while the vampire doesn't have regeneration, it DOES have fast healing. Which in my head, functions like regeneration. Does this mean that damage from weapons that aren't silver and magic gets converted to non lethal (something I thought was bogus and ridiculous)?

In your head it might. In the rules of D&D 3.5, it does not. :smallwink:

[SecretlyaFish]

In your head it might. In the rules of D&D 3.5, it does not. :smallwink:

You comment isn't constructive and doesn't help me figure this whole thing out. So thanks :smallsmile:

[JyP]

However, while the vampire doesn't have regeneration, it DOES have fast healing. Which in my head, functions like regeneration.
Well, the difference between fast healing and regeneration is that there's nothing about conversion to non lethal damage with fast healing.

[SecretlyaFish]

Well, the difference between fast healing and regeneration is that there's nothing about conversion to non lethal damage with fast healing.

So, a creature with DR that doesn't have regeneration, always takes lethal damage if the damage exceeds its DR? So, a Fighter hits a vampire with a normal greatsword and crits, dealing 24 points of damage. 10 is subtracted from the damage reduction, and then the other 14 points are considered lethal damage even though the weapon was not silver and magic?

[Andreaz]

Correct. DR and Fast Healing don't interfere with each other at all. DR reduces some of the damage you take. Fast Healing heals your hp every round. Nothing else. End of story.


Which in my head, functions like regeneration.Now you know it doesn't, so take that off your head :p
What happens when a werewolf's non lethal equals his hp?The same thing that happens to anyone that is "zeroed" with nonlethal: Staggered. If one is sent to the negatives via nonlethal, then it's unconscious. No death unless you deal the necessary lethal damage, like an execution blow.
What happens when a vampire takes non lethal damage? Can undead even take non lethal?IIRC, they don't take nonlethal damage.
I saw a Solar vs x thread, and in it, the Balor decapitated the solar but they said because the Balors weapon didn't bypass the DR, it was converted to non lethal and the solar would regenerate from it.This is bogus. Beheading kills headed creatures regardless of DR, Fast Healing, Regeneration and their ilk. Only extra heads, not needing heads and being immune to crits tends to work against vorpal weapons.

[SecretlyaFish]

Correct. DR and Fast Healing don't interfere with each other at all. DR reduces some of the damage you take. Fast Healing heals your hp every round. Nothing else. End of story.

Ok thanks I got confused after reading the regeneration and then the whole non lethal vs lethal thing. Thanks for clearing it up for me mate.

[Evolved Shrimp]

Damage reduction, fast healing, and regeneration are three different things that have nothing to do with each other (except that they affect how a creature takes and heals hit point damage):

Damage reduction is the ability to – for all intents and purposes – alltogether avoid a certain portion of damage a creature would otherwise take. The damage is not converted into non-lethal damage, it simply does not occur. (Again, for practical purposes.)
Fast healing is just like normal healing, only at a faster rate. (And so is not like regeneration.) Damage is taken normally – nothing is converted to non-lethal – and heals normally, except for the speed of healing.
Regeneration both converts lethal to non-lethal damage and provides for faster than normal healing. (With bonuses like regrowing lost limbs etc.)



So, a creature with DR that doesn't have regeneration, always takes lethal damage if the damage exceeds its DR?

No, it takes the normal damage it would have taken (lethal or non-lethal), minus a number of hit points as specified by its DR. (Which may result in no damage at all, e.g., if a creature with DR 10 is hit for 7 hp of damage).


So, a Fighter hits a vampire with a normal greatsword and crits, dealing 24 points of damage. 10 is subtracted from the damage reduction, and then the other 14 points are considered lethal damage even though the weapon was not silver and magic?

Yes. If the weapon would have been silver and magic, the damage would have been 24.

[Andreaz]

Veering away a bit, I find Fast Healing stronger than Regeneration. FH only stops when you die, and it does heal lethal damage, which Regeneration doesn't. This would intuitively be moot since Regeneration converts all damage taken to nonlethal... except it doesn't, there's always a type of damage that breaks it.
FH also heals nonlethal damage, since any source of healing that heals lethal damage also heals as much nonlethal damage. Handy when it happens.

[SecretlyaFish]

Veering away a bit, I find Fast Healing stronger than Regeneration. FH only stops when you die, and it does heal lethal damage, which Regeneration doesn't. This would intuitively be moot since Regeneration converts all damage taken to nonlethal... except it doesn't, there's always a type of damage that breaks it.
FH also heals nonlethal damage, since any source of healing that heals lethal damage also heals as much nonlethal damage. Handy when it happens.

Well, in the case of say, a pit fiend, unless you have good and silver weapons, its essentially almost unkillable in melee combat. If it had fast healing, it would actually lose power. I guess it depends. I'm not sure if its correct on the vorpal vs regeneration thing though... It says specifically "An attack that can cause instant death only threatens the creature with death if it is delivered by weapons that deal it lethal damage." So a balors vorpal sword, not being silver or good, does not deal lethal damage to the pit fiend. And because Vorpal does not explicitly say it bypasses all forms of regeneration or fast healing, it causes confusion..

Vorpal: This potent and feared ability allows the weapon to sever the heads of those it strikes. Upon a roll of natural 20 (followed by a successful roll to confirm the critical hit), the weapon severs the opponent’s head (if it has one) from its body. Some creatures, such as many aberrations and all oozes, have no heads. Others, such as golems and undead creatures other than vampires, are not affected by the loss of their heads. Most other creatures, however, die when their heads are cut off. A vorpal weapon must be a slashing weapon. (If you roll this property randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll.)

Another question, does Vorpal work against vampires? Being undead, they are immune to critical hits, and it says in addition to cutting the head off, its mouth must be filled with holy waffers and its heart staked. Or is it just cut the head off and fill it with holy waffers. What happens if the head is just cut off and left there?

[Komatik]

So, I read something interesting that I NEVER knew before, and I was pretty stunned and thought woah wtf that is garbage, but then if its true, it made me think "oh, that's why vampires and were creatures have that high LA".

What I read was that, lets say we have a vampire. Silver and magic weapons are the only thing that can overcome its DR. However, while the vampire doesn't have regeneration, it DOES have fast healing. Which in my head, functions like regeneration. Does this mean that damage from weapons that aren't silver and magic gets converted to non lethal (something I thought was bogus and ridiculous)? That just seems too ridiculous. Then we have a werewolf, which has DR:5/silver. If something hits him with a normal weapon, is that damage converted to non lethal due to the fast healing? What happens when a werewolf's non lethal equals his hp?

What happens when a vampire takes non lethal damage? Can undead even take non lethal? Is a vampire unkillable without silver and magic weapons? Is the werewolf unkillable without silver?

Undead don't take nonlethal damage. There's a reason undead don't have (and can't have - Regeneration was made to require a Constitution score) Regeneration any more: throwing entire planets at them couldn't hurt a regenerating undead.

Google Gravetouched Ghoul Swarm-shifter Pyro-troll if interested in hilarious brokenness.

[SecretlyaFish]

Undead don't take nonlethal damage. There's a reason undead don't have (and can't have - Regeneration was made to require a Constitution score) Regeneration any more: throwing entire planets at them couldn't hurt a regenerating undead.

Google Gravetouched Ghoul Swarm-shifter Pyro-troll if interested in hilarious brokenness.

That is so stupid lmfao. He would essentially be invincible with a ring of acid and fire immunity. They would need to sunder his arms to seperate his body from them and kill him that way.

[Komatik]

That is so stupid lmfao. He would essentially be invincible with a ring of acid and fire immunity. They would need to sunder his arms to seperate his body from them and kill him that way.

Actually, he's a Pyro-troll. So immune to fire, takes 1,5 times cold damage as nonlethal which gets ignored because he's a ghoul. So fire immunity and some way to not get turned.

[Chronos]

The advantage of regeneration is that it keeps you from dying. Put a swordsman up against a troll, and unless the swordsman has some source of poison or fire, he can never kill it. He can keep hacking away at the troll's motionless body all day, but the troll will still eventually recover from it. Though you can keep a regenerating creature down for long enough that you usually can find some source of the appropriate damage (throw the body into a bonfire, for instance).

Any creature without a Constitution score is immune to nonlethal damage, but also cannot have regeneration. It is possible to be immune to nonlethal damage while retaining a Con score, and hence potentially having regeneration, but such methods are few and far between. Off the top of my head, there's the Warforged Juggernaut prestige class, and a sort of half-undead template called Gheden.