Mystic Ranger / Shooting Star

[schreier]

I've seen this combination listed in a lot of guides, but I'm confused how you can have both. They're both ways to increase spell casting, and are often combined with Sword of the Arcane Order.

Reading Mystic Ranger, it sacrifices the animal companion. Reading Shooting Star Ranger, the animal companion is not a requirement of the substitution level, but the "Bonus Spells" supernatural ability adds spells similar to a high wisdom score, "replacing the animal companion feature gained by a standard ranger..."

So - can you do Mystic Ranger? It seems like yes, but it feels dirty gaining a benefit which "replaces" a non-existent benefit. The fact that is says "standard ranger" could be interpreted as "if you take this substitution level as a standard ranger, you do not get an animal companion," as opposed to explicity requiring that you sacrifice the ability to get a companion ...

Do people generally have a problem allowing the two to interact?

If you "need" an animal companion, could you meet that need by taking the wild cohort feat somehow?

Obviously, you could take the lvl 3 and lvl 8 levels, skipping the lvl 4 - but that is the one that gives you improved spellcasting (making you level 0.5Ranger + 2 + Arcane for casting level) - which is pretty powerful

Thanks again
schreier

[heavyfuel]

I've seen this combination listed in a lot of guides, but I'm confused how you can have both.

It's simple: You can't. At least by strict RAW reading.

Sword of the Arcane order requires Ranger lv 4, not Mystic Ranger. As much as he is a Variant Ranger, he isn't a "Ranger". Simply having "Ranger" in your class name isn't enough, as they're different classes. Similarly, Sword of the Arcane Order doesn't work with the "Eldeen Ranger" PrC

If your DM allows for it, great! It's a kickass combo. But don't expect it to pass

[schreier]

I don't think the RAW is that simple honestly ... obviously, your point about it being up to the DM is completely on point, but in Unearthed Arcana, it says:

"With your DM’s permission, you can use any one of these variant classes in place of the standard class of the same name. Depending on the campaign world, variant classes may exist side by side with standard classes, or they may replace standard classes entirely"

So to use a variant at all requires DM permission (well, technically anything does .. but that's besides the point). It can replace, exist side by side, etc ... thus, it is possible that a substitution level for a ranger could apply to a variant class without going outside of RAW I think

Reading the requirements for the Shooting Star Ranger, it just says "must have Mystra as her patron diety and be about to take her 3rd, 4th, or 8th level of ranger." It doesn't say "Standard Ranger" - which is interesting, because the Bonus Spells section says "replaces the animal companion class feature gained by a standard ranger" .... so it is interesting that it specifies standard in one section, but not the other. I'm sure I'm putting too much weight on the editor to believe that the different word selection is intentional, but ... I do think that RAW is a gray area ... intention can be used to decipher RAW when RAW is unclear, but I do think it is unclear (obviously just my opinion :) )

[Pluto!]

I think the Mystic Ranger/Shooting Star combination is abusive and power-grabby, so it's not something I'd use or allow, but it's based on the way Substitution levels work:
The substitution level doesn't replace a specific ability, it gives you an entirely different level which overrides the normal level benefits. In the case of Shooting star, it does that with the CL boost. That bonus overwrites the normal Mystic Ranger level 4 (which is incidentally empty), and gives its class feature.

For the other piece of weirdness in the combination, the spell progression from the Shooting Star sub level doesn't overwrite that from Mystic Ranger due to Text v. Table precedence.


as they're different classes.
You're going to need to demonstrate that for your argument to hold water.

[Curmudgeon]

You're going to need to demonstrate that for your argument to hold water.
From Dragon # 336, page 105:

The Mystic Ranger is a variant Ranger. Unless otherwise noted, a Mystic Ranger advances in the same manner as a Ranger (same Hit Die, Base Attack Bonus, saving throw bonuses, skill points, and so on). When a character elects to take a level of Ranger or Mystic Ranger, he may not later take levels in the other class.

[schreier]

For the other piece of weirdness in the combination, the spell progression from the Shooting Star sub level doesn't overwrite that from Mystic Ranger due to Text v. Table precedence.


When you say this - I agree, always, text overrules table per the guidelines ... but the bonus spells section doesn't change spell progression - it adds additional spells as if it were from a high ability score. Not sure that would be a text vs. table argument there (i.e. there's on spell progression in the text or table for shooting star - just bonus spell slots)


From Dragon # 336, page 105: The Mystic Ranger is a variant Ranger. Unless otherwise noted, a Mystic Ranger advances in the same manner as a Ranger (same Hit Die, Base Attack Bonus, saving throw bonuses, skill points, and so on). When a character elects to take a level of Ranger or Mystic Ranger, he may not later take levels in the other class.

I would say that that makes an argument, but isn't a slam dunk. Class is used in multiple ways .. as I mentioned, Unearthed Arcana says "you can use any one of these variant classes in place of the standard class of the same name. Depending on the campaign world, variant classes may exist side by side with standard classes, or they may replace standard classes entirely" ... class is used to indicate a variant class, not just a completely separate class.

[animewatcha]

That wording is used on some other variant classes from dragon magazine like chaotic monk.

[ExLibrisMortis]

It says right there that the mystic ranger is a variant ranger. UA has some rules on how those work, and by those rules, you can use mystic ranger levels in place of regular ranger levels. The text for substitution levels says 'you can take this level in place of your xth level of ranger'. Replacing 'ranger' with 'mystic ranger' tells you the substitution level works fine.

If it's not RAW, I think it's RAI. Ranger substitution levels are, in general, meant to work with ranger class variants. If certain combinations lead to absurdly powerful results, that's accidental, but not against RAI. The developers didn't consider every single combination of ranger substitution levels and class variants (in the case of magazine content, I imagine they didn't have time, even if they wanted to).

[Curmudgeon]

It says right there that the mystic ranger is a variant ranger. UA has some rules on how those work, and by those rules, you can use mystic ranger levels in place of regular ranger levels.
Really? Because the Unearthed Arcana rule here says it's a tricky subject.
Multiclassing And Variant Classes

Multiclassing between variants of the same class is a tricky subject. In cases where a single class offers a variety of paths (such as the totem barbarian or the monk fighting styles), the easiest solution is simply to bar multiclassing between different versions of the same class (just as a character can't multiclass between different versions of specialist wizards). For variants that are wholly separate from the character class—such as the bardic sage or the urban ranger—multiclassing, even into multiple variants of the same class, is probably okay. Identical class features should stack if gained from multiple versions of the same class (except for spellcasting, which is always separate). If you follow "the easiest solution" then you're prohibited from mixing a regular Ranger level (substitution or not) with Mystic Ranger levels.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I thought you'd bring that up. Taking a substitution level is not multiclassing.

This is from RotD, I'm not sure if the text differs between books: "A substitution level is a level of a given class that you take instead of the level described for the standard class. Selecting a substitution level is not the same as multiclassing - you remain within the class for which the substitution level is taken. The class features of the substitution level simply replace those of the standard class’s level."

You can take substitution levels, because you can substitute the 'must be about to take their 1st level in ranger' with 'must be about to take their 1st level in mystic ranger', as per the UA rule ("use [...] in place of the standard class").

[DEMON]

In my opinion, you can't combine Mystic Ranger with the Shooting Star substitution levels 3 and 4, since you don't have the abilities they replace:
You don't have Endurance at MR level 3 (you gain it at level 4)
You don't have the Animal Companion at MR level 4 (the MR does not get any)
You have Swift Tracker special ability at MR level 8 and thus should be able to take the Shooting Star substitution level 8.

Since MR is a Ranger variant (i.e. a variant of the Ranger base class) I believe it should work for the Sword of the Arcane Order feat (unlike the aforementioned Eldeen Ranger which is a completely separate class.

Taking the Endurance feat and a class that gets Animal Companion (a Wizard that trades his Familiar for an Animal Companion would be a great option since it also provides an abusive boost to your CL with SotAO... and gets you a spellbook and a bonus feat and a boost your weak save and allows you to use wands and scrolls of all Wizard spells and eternal wands...) before MR levels 3/4 might be a workaround for the Shooting Star sub levels 3 and 4.

Obviously, as with anything else, in the end this all falls down to "ask your DM".

[Curmudgeon]

I thought you'd bring that up. Taking a substitution level is not multiclassing.

This is from RotD, I'm not sure if the text differs between books: "A substitution level is a level of a given class that you take instead of the level described for the standard class.
But Mystic Ranger is not the standard Ranger, so you've just cited a rule which disallows this combination.

[ExLibrisMortis]

But Mystic Ranger is not the standard Ranger, so you've just cited a rule which disallows this combination.
No, that's just you, not willing to admit you're wrong.

Mystic ranger is the standard class here, the substitution levels are the non-standard class. Simple as that.

[heavyfuel]

No, that's just you, not willing to admit you're wrong.

Mystic ranger is the standard class here, the substitution levels are the non-standard class. Simple as that.

What are you on about?

Mystic Ranger is a Variant Ranger. How can he be a the standard version of the Ranger class?

It's even on dictionary.com:


2. differing from a standard

[ExLibrisMortis]

What are you on about?

Mystic Ranger is a Variant Ranger. How can he be a the standard version of the Ranger class?
I explained, didn't I? From the perspective of the substitution level, the mystic ranger is the standard class. In the mystic ranger class write-up, there is no substitution level, hence it's standard, not a variant. There is no regular ranger to compare to - it was replaced by mystic ranger. For that player, mystic ranger becomes, effectively, the standard ranger class - more so if they're banned from taking regular ranger levels, which we're assuming, right?

As the dictionary tells you, 'variant' and 'standard' are relative terms. They can refer to different things in different contexts.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis
No, that's just you, not willing to admit you're wrong.

This is hardly a fair or productive comment, and it's not "just Curmudgeon."

The mystic ranger is by definition a variant class, by definition not a standard class. And substitution levels aren't by themselves a class.


Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis
From the perspective of the substitution level, the mystic ranger is the standard class.

As pointed out earlier, the mystic ranger won't work for Shooting Star. From Dragon #336, p. 105: "The mystic ranger...gives up the ability to gain an animal companion."

Thus there is no animal companion to trade for the fourth-level bonus spells of a Shooting Star. You're trying to get something for nothing.

[schreier]

This line, in Races of Stone pg 146, helps explain about the "replacing animal companion" and other lines in the Mystic Ranger:

"The description of each substitution level benefit explains what occurs to the standard class ability not gained, if that ability would normally increase at a specific rate (such as the gnome ranger’s favored enemy)."

So - as part of the description, it has to say what happens to the normal benefit.

I think you can easily make an argument that the additional text just describes what it does to the ability - but it seems in general that substitution levels replace all abilities gained at that level other than the standard (spellcasting, hit points, saves, etc...) This is different than an alternate class feature, where the feature is what is exchanged, instead of the level.

I know that one of the rules is that you can take some, but not all of the substitution levels - what happens if you take lvl 2 of the moon-warded ranger, but not lvl 6? Lvl 2 replaces combat style, and lvl 6 replaces improved combat style ... can you gain the second without the first? It references the choice at lvl 2, but also says you don't need to meet the prereqs.

[ExLibrisMortis]

As pointed out earlier, the mystic ranger won't work for Shooting Star. From Dragon #336, p. 105: "The mystic ranger...gives up the ability to gain an animal companion."

Thus there is no animal companion to trade for the fourth-level bonus spells of a Shooting Star. You're trying to get something for nothing.
It may not give you anything, but you're still eligible for the level.

You replace your animal companion with bonus spells, which is useless, because - as you say - you don't get an animal companion. Shooting Star rangers do get other things, though - the improved spellcasting and expanded spell list abilities, and k(arcana) as class skill.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by schreier
…but it feels dirty gaining a benefit which "replaces" a non-existent benefit.

I'd say this is your gut telling you the combo isn't on the level.


Originally Posted by schreier
Do people generally have a problem allowing the two to interact?

Well, you can tally the responses for yourself, but note that even some of the folks who are finely parsing the definition of substitution levels, etc., have described the combination as "abusive and power-grabby," which I'd certainly agree with.

As most of your respondents have mentioned, this is ultimately a DM call. I'd guess most DMs wouldn't buy this--but you won't be gaming with most DMs, just your DM.


Originally Posted by schreier
This line, in Races of Stone pg 146, helps explain about the "replacing animal companion" and other lines in the Mystic Ranger….

Also, not sure what a racial supplement has to do with Dragon magazine content.

[LentilNinja]

In my opinion, you can't combine Mystic Ranger with the Shooting Star substitution levels 3 and 4, since you don't have the abilities they replace:
You don't have Endurance at MR level 3 (you gain it at level 4)
You don't have the Animal Companion at MR level 4 (the MR does not get any)
You have Swift Tracker special ability at MR level 8 and thus should be able to take the Shooting Star substitution level 8.

I assume the part that says "This replaces Endurance" etc is just written out of assumption that you still have it at that point. While you wouldn't lose Endurance, to me you should lose what that 3rd level of Mystic Ranger WOULD give you (Combat Style). Same with level 4 (I think). To me thats still a fair trade-off.

[schreier]

I'd say this is your gut telling you the combo isn't on the level.



Well, you can tally the responses for yourself, but note that even some of the folks who are finely parsing the definition of substitution levels, etc., have described the combination as "abusive and power-grabby," which I'd certainly agree with.

As most of your respondents have mentioned, this is ultimately a DM call. I'd guess most DMs wouldn't buy this--but you won't be gaming with most DMs, just your DM.



Also, not sure what a racial supplement has to do with Dragon magazine content.

The reason I included the language from races of stone is because it helps describe how substitution levels work. Dragon magazine presents the substitution levels without additional text describing their use.

I think it's clear based on the arguments that there is no official stance, and the fact that it is a dead system means there never will be. You can make reasonable arguments both ways, with more people leaning against it because of the disconnect in abilities lost, effectively treating the levels as acfs with specific levels as an additional criteria.

To me, I guess it comes down to the DM, player, and party - how optimized they are, what fluff is attached justifying the substitution, and how the player will use or abuse it

Interesting thought ... if you allow acf, and variant with just replacing level abilities, you could get extra abusive taking wildshape and moon warded since wild shape is at different levels that combat mastery

Thanks everyone

[DEMON]

I assume the part that says "This replaces Endurance" etc is just written out of assumption that you still have it at that point. While you wouldn't lose Endurance, to me you should lose what that 3rd level of Mystic Ranger WOULD give you (Combat Style). Same with level 4 (I think). To me thats still a fair trade-off.

I can't really share this sentiment.

Giving up Combat Style pseudo feat and giving up Endurance are entirely different things.

In my opinion the designers intended for the alternate features to replace features of the same, or very similar values (in their eyes).

Not to mention the precedence this makes - if you combine the Mystic Ranger with the Wildshare Ranger ACF, there are no features you'd be giving up for the Shooting Star substitution level 3 and only Endurance to give up at level 4 (since the Wildshare Ranger gives up his Combat Styles for benefits that manifest at level 1 and levels 5+).

So in essence you've only sacrificed Endurance for 2 levels worth of substitution levels.

I'm not going to dig through all the substitution levels/ACFs/class variants combos out there, but I'm sure there are many more examples where this ruling would lead to getting something for nothing and I don't think that was the intention.

[schreier]

As both Demon and I had the same idea about how wild shape might work if you treat substitute levels as replacing the bonuses at each level - while ACF require the ability to be sacrificed at the level described, here's what I came up with the most "power-gamer" ranger I could .... I wanted to take Arcane Hunter, but couldn't with a Mystic Ranger, since it required lvl 1 and favored enemy to be sacrificed. Mystic Ranger can't meet that requirement.

So ... start with the Mystic Ranger ... take the Wild Shape Ranger, sacrificing combat styles ...
Then, take both Moon-Warded and Shooting Star


I give you the Mystic Moon-Warded Shooting-Star Wild Shape Ranger :)

You would get:
Lvl 1: Track, Wild Empathy, Fast Movement
Lvl 2: Armor of the Senses (Losing First Favored Enemy for substitution level) - MOON-WARDED LEVEL
Lvl 3: Weavespeak (lose Combat Style for ACF) - SHOOTING STAR LEVEL
Lvl 4: Bonus Spells, Improved Spellcasting - SHOOTING STAR LEVEL
Lvl 5 - Wild Shape 1/day
Lvl 6 - Wild Shape 2/day (could be Moon-Warded Level, but DR 2/- is weak, especially compared to wild shape)
Lvl 7 - Woodland Stride, Wild Shape 3/day (lose Improved Combat Style)
Lvl 8 - Bonus Spells, Expanded Spell List (lose 2nd favored enemy, swift tracker) - SHOOTING STAR LEVEL
Lvl 9 - Evasion
Lvl 10 - Wild Shape 4/day
Lvl 11 - Indomitable Mind, Bonus Spells - MOON-WARDED LEVEL (Bonus Spells are from the lvl 4 Shooting-Star level)
Lvl 12 - Nothing (lost Combat Style Mastery)
Lvl 13 - Camoflage
Lvl 14 - "3rd favored enemy" (first really), Wild Shape 5/day, Bonus Spells (from lvl 4 shooting star)
Lvl 15-16 - Nothing
Lvl 17 - Hide in plain sight
Lvl 18 - Wild Shape 6/day
Lvl 19 - Nothing
Lvl 20 - 4th (second) favored enemy

Obviously take Sword of the Arcane Order to get wizard spells added

You can do similar but less spells by starting with the standard ranger, adding Arcane Hunter but losing the wild shape - that seems clearly acceptable, as long as you can somehow justify worshiping Mystra and the moon - which should be doable as Selune tore through Shar to create the original goddess of magic, and they are allied

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by schreier
I give you the Mystic Moon-Warded Shooting-Star Wild Shape Ranger...

Congratulations, you have Druid Extra-Lite.

You're giving up the combat style and animal companion, two of a ranger's mainstays, in exchange for wild shape and a weakened spell progression that never reaches above fifth-level spells, plus a few bonus spells and a too-little-too-late taste of favored enemy. You're losing the very feats that let the mystic ranger function with its limited weapon proficiencies, and making it more difficult to capitalize on some of the better ranger spells.

Also keep in mind that the mystic ranger has a grand total of six (6) choices for fifth-level spells, which will remain your only fifth-level spells between 11th and 20th levels, since Shooting Star only gives bonus spells up to fourth level. At 11th level a druid is starting on 6th-level spells, for which there are dozens of choices, and which the mystic ranger won't ever touch. Same goes for whatever wizard spells you pick up with Sword of the Arcane Order. Fifth-level wizard spells are respectable at 10th level, but less so at 15th or 20th.

[atemu1234]

Congratulations, you have Druid Extra-Lite.

So, why not play a refluffed Druid, is the question subtextually posed here.

[animewatcha]

For mystic range and sub levels. I always treated them as gaining the sub level later. Like normal ranger can gain armor of the senses at level 2 and moon ranger at level 3 or 4 whenever it would gain the first combat style feat.

For the ability to take standard AND variant class front..

Curmudgeon please set aside your usual stance on martial monks and stick with what I am trying to point out..

Hi I am an ex- martial monk 2 / chaotic martial monk 2 ( or ex - chaotic martial monk 2 / martial monk 2 ). Sure, I am giving up 2 bab, but I am picking up distrending tide, flurry of blows, wis to ac ( and a tradeoff on it like damage reduction unless okay with wis to ac twice ), evasion ( and whatever knockoff I trade for it ), + 6 to all saves, potentially other small stuff, and that's not even the kicker. The 4, yes 4, epic fighter bonus feats instead of 2. What goes good with immunity to ranged attack rolls?

[Grod_The_Giant]

So, why not play a refluffed Druid, is the question subtextually posed here.
Because the ranger ACF mash-up is more balanced? You don't get an animal companion, you don't get high-level spells, the spells you do have aren't as strong, and your wildshape is much more limited.

I really don't get why people are calling Shooting Star Mystic Ranger "abusive." It's 4 extra spells/day and (I think?) a downgrade on your caster level. Even so, 4 extra spells/day on a 5th-level-spells chassis is really not that bad.

[schreier]

I guess I liked the arcane casting, with greater BAB .... lvls 1-10, it's great .. and I like the knight of Mystra feel? :) Also there is the monk AC bonus that works with light armor, and a free permanent mind blank.

And I thought about working it where the sacrificed power would determine the level you gained something (like arcane hunter) - but it felt like you could either interpret the substitution level as that level, getting it regardless of the power sacrificed (so mystic ranger AND shooting-star) OR look at the level to determine when you gain it (so shooting-star and mystic ranger wouldn't work, but arcane hunter and mystic would, but at level 2) - had to be consistent. I think either is defensible, just need to be consistent.

The difference in spellcasting:

Ranger lvl 20 = 0/3/3/3/3 (lvl 1-4 spells)
Mystic Ranger lvl 20 = 5/5/5/5/4/4 (lvl 0-5)

So you gain 5/2/2/2/1/4 - that is nice as a druid caster (getting the extra spell levels, and spells per level) - but even more so when you combine with sword of the arcane order, when you can cast wizard spells from those slots

The lvl 0 spells for reference are: create water, cure minor wounds, flare, guidance, know direction, light, mending, purify food and drink, resistance, and virtue
The lvl 5 spells for reference are: awaken, baleful polymorph, cure critical wounds, control winds, summon nature's ally V, and wall of thorns - pretty solid choices

I think you can take magical training to get a spellbook with lvl 0 wizard spells, which should let you have your own spellbook to scribe spells into to take advantage of the sword of the arcane order - take read magic as one of them I would think to be safe

Considering how weak the ranger animal companion is (half druid?) - not a huge sacrifice, especially if you can get the substitution levels. On the other hand, I think the wild shape is more fluff/feel than crunch in utility honestly ... restricting it to small and medium without a way to get larger or other forms is pretty weak. Of course, you can PrC into Master of Many Forms

[DEMON]

Congratulations, you have Druid Extra-Lite.

words

What does that have to do with anything posted above?

High level spells > lower level spells.

But that is hardly an argument in favor of abusive alternate class feature combinations that trade abilities you don't have for new abilities.

[schreier]

What does that have to do with anything posted above?

High level spells > lower level spells.

But that is hardly an argument in favor of abusive alternate class feature combinations that trade abilities you don't have for new abilities.

I guess his point is that it is less abusive since it's power level it tier 2-3 ... it's interpreting the rules in a way that gains something without really sacrificing what was originally intended ... so it's a gray area rules-wise, but the level of abuse is lower because of the relative power levels compared to higher-tier builds

[DEMON]

the level of abuse is lower because of the relative power levels compared to higher-tier builds

I understand that, but that should not be taken into consideration when discussing the validity from the rules POV.

A Fighter is a lot weaker than a Wizard and even if we give it all of the substitutions and ACFs on top of all its feats, it probably (most certainly) will remain a lot weaker.

Though it's still not normally allowed by rules.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by DEMON
What does that have to do with anything posted above?

High level spells > lower level spells.

But that is hardly an argument in favor of abusive alternate class feature combinations that trade abilities you don't have for new abilities.

Earlier in the thread I made it plain I didn't agree that mystic ranger and Shooting Star could be legally combined, for exactly the reasons you've detailed. I'm not in the slightest arguing "in favor of abusive class feature combinations," since I dislike the OP's approach with his Mystic Mashup. I'm pointing out that as far as I can tell, the Mystic Mashup isn't much of a ranger and an especially poor echo of a druid.

I think you'll find I actually agree with much of what you've been saying. I certainly don't disagree with your comments in posts #11 and #22 above.


Originally Posted by schreier
I guess his point is that it is less abusive since it's power level i[s] tier 2-3 ... it's interpreting the rules in a way that gains something without really sacrificing what was originally intended ... so it's a gray area rules-wise, but the level of abuse is lower because of the relative power levels compared to higher-tier builds….

No, I actually don't mean any of this. I certainly don't mean to imply that because the Mystic Mashup is weaker, it somehow justifies a deliberate misinterpretation of the rules. My overall point is that you're bending, if not distorting, rules on class variants and substitution levels to create a final product which--as far as I can tell--isn't really worth it.



And out of curiosity, I'd be interested to know who's actually played a mystic ranger in a live game. I have, just wondered about anyone else.

[DEMON]

I think you'll find I actually agree with much of what you've been saying. I certainly don't disagree with your comments in posts #11 and #22 above.

Misunderstanding on my side, then. I mistook your post for defense of the combo and reacted upon that impression.

[schreier]

Sorry to misinterpret - my combination posting was an "if it's allowed, this is how it would look" - and I still contend that, no matter what, it's up to the player and DM and party .. the requirement of taking substitution levels with dropping the specific abilities vs. replacing the level regardless is a reasonable question that is debatable, with more coming down on the side of no - I wasn't disagreeing with that ...

Also - wasn't trying to say that you said it was ok - just abusive implied that it was for a power gain, which it isn't really a powerful combination. It is definitely a favorable interpretation of the substitution level rules - no doubt about it. And I'm leaning towards the standard ranger, with the shooting-star and moon-warded, with arcane hunter - i think that is clearly allowed in the rules - as long as you can justify combining the stars and moon - and selune/mystra seem to go well together, so I can do that no problem ...

The wildshape aspect was clearly excessive I think - that was a theoretical extreme being used in this case, not an actual proposal. If I were rating the various combinations, in terms of rule-alignment, I would go with:

Standard Ranger/Arcane Hunter/Shooting Star/Moon-Warded/Sword of the Arcane Order = 9.5/10 (Just because you have to justify Mystra and the moon combination)

Mystic Ranger/Shooting-Star/Sword of the Arcane Order = 6/10 (because you are dropping powers you don't have at those levels)

Mystic Ranger/Shooting-Star/Moon-Warded/Sword of the Arcane Order = 5/10 (dropping more things at different levels)

Mystic Ranger/Shooting-Star/Moon-Warded/Sword of the Arcane Order/Wild Shape = 2/10 (as above, but seems clearly against RAI)

I'd certainly allow the first, likely the second, maybe the third depending on the game, and no way the 4th - for the 2nd and 3rd, you could require a burnt feat (wild cohort - without getting the animal companion) to offset the requirement

EDIT- Also, I have not played with one - I am about to start a new character, and I'm trying to feel out what makes sense/what I can do. I'm between the first one above (standard with the substitution) and just the mystic with sword of the arcane order and maybe wild-shape (you should be able to take the feat without the substiution levels I would think - just need to be a member of the Knights of the Mystic Fire)
schreier

[Dunsparce]

And out of curiosity, I'd be interested to know who's actually played a mystic ranger in a live game. I have, just wondered about anyone else.

I play one in a currently running campaign. He's level 14 right now, straight mystic ranger with no substitution levels or SotAO and I have to say getting the spells at the same time as a sorcerer plus level 0 and 5 spells is quite nice. I use an archery build and find myself using spells Arrow Mind, Swift Haste, Arrow Storm, and Foebane a lot more than what is possible for a standard ranger. Level 5 spells are limited, but I've gotten use out of all 6 of them at some point or another in the campaign. When I'm not using spells that enhance my archery, I like using control spells like Entangle/Impeding Stones, Haboob, and Wall of Thorns to great effect.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by DEMON
Misunderstanding on my side, then. I mistook your post for defense of the combo and reacted upon that impression.

Roger that, no worries.


Originally Posted by Dunsparce
I play one in a currently running campaign. He's level 14 right now, straight mystic ranger with no substitution levels or SotAO and I have to say getting the spells at the same time as a sorcerer plus level 0 and 5 spells is quite nice. I use an archery build and find myself using spells Arrow Mind, Swift Haste, Arrow Storm, and Foebane a lot more than what is possible for a standard ranger.

Very nice. What feats are you working with?

[Dunsparce]

Very nice. What feats are you working with?


-Weapon Focus: Longbow (Level 1 Feat)
-Point Blank Shot (Human Bonus Feat)
-Track (Ranger Bonus Feat)
-Rapid Shot (Combat Style Feat)
-Dead Eye (Level 3 Feat)
-Endurance (Ranger Bonus Feat)
-Wild Cohort (Level 6 Feat)
-Manyshot (Improved Combat Style Feat)
-Precise Shot (Level 9 Feat)
-Improved Precise Shot (Combat Style Mastery Feat)
-Improved Rapid Shot (Level 12 Feat)

Not very optimal , but it works great in the game I'm in. Wild Cohort may seem a bit off track but there was an in-character reason for it. The party raided a bandit hideout and they had malnourished, diseased dogs. One survived the fight due to being spooked away with Cause Fear. My ranger managed to befriend it and even took it to a cleric to remove its disease, but that wasn't enough to keep the 1 HD dog safe. So he made it his wild cohort. Through some homebrew artifact I received at level 12, he is now awakened and counts as a druid's animal companion ability wise, weilding a mouthpick greataxe in battle and is the ranger's best friend ever.

[Curmudgeon]

So you want free stuff (bonus spells) by trading in the weak Ranger animal companion you don't have, then you're adding a stronger animal companion with a feat. You don't see any problems with this?

[schreier]

If that was to me - I was proposing taking the wold cohort feat but not getting the companion ... effectively trading the feat in for the spells in lieu of the character ability companion


you could require a burnt feat (wild cohort - without getting the animal companion) to offset the requirement

[Dunsparce]

So you want free stuff (bonus spells) by trading in the weak Ranger animal companion you don't have, then you're adding a stronger animal companion with a feat. You don't see any problems with this?

To be fair the dog may have a mouthpick weapon but he's only used it like once, most of the time he sits in the carriage we travel in guarding the cleric's followers(leadership was refluffed to give you only a small number of followers, but it allows greater roleplay and interaction with them since they each have distinct personalities and goals) and other random NPCs we keep dragging along(mostly the two camels that pull the thing and my ranger's awakened hawk friend that he uses to scout the skies). Mechanically I took it mostly so the dog that I decided would be the crux of my ranger's character development wouldn't die to a stray AoE.

[schreier]

I was guessing it was to me - since Dunsparce loses the animal companion by becoming a mystic ranger ... but he wasn't trading in the animal companion for anything else (like for the Shooting Star levels for example)

[animewatcha]

sidenote on worshipping the moon and mystra. The moon warded ranger needs only to worship the moon, not treat it as patron deity.