Questions on monk of many styles

[djwood]

First glance at this archetype made me cringe. Who would want a monk without flurry of blow? Second glance though, I noticed that they get style feats in the same way that monks get their normal feats, no prereqs necessary. So does this mean my level 2 human monk can blow all his feats to get the full Crane Style tree? If so, could this make up for a lack of flurry or is it still not enough to make a Master of Many Styles viable compared to Average Joe Monk?

One thing to add is that, the way I read it, the MoMS can take the 2nd or 3rd style feats in either order, as long as he has the entry style feat. So a human monk could take Combat Reflexes as his human bonus, Panther Style as his first level, and Panther Parry as his monk bonus (skipping Panther if he so desired). That's how I read the second bolded part of Foghammer's excerpt.

[skypse]

Who would want a monk without flurry of blow?
Every-fcing-body except for Unchained Monk.


Second glance though, I noticed that they get style feats in the same way that monks get their normal feats, no prereqs necessary. So does this mean my level 2 human monk can blow all his feats to get the full Crane Style tree? If so, could this make up for a lack of flurry or is it still not enough to make a Master of Many Styles viable compared to Average Joe Monk?
Average Joe Monk is bad as hell so this isn't even a question.


One thing to add is that, the way I read it, the MoMS can take the 2nd or 3rd style feats in either order, as long as he has the entry style feat. So a human monk could take Combat Reflexes as his human bonus, Panther Style as his first level, and Panther Parry as his monk bonus (skipping Panther if he so desired). That's how I read the second bolded part of Foghammer's excerpt.

The feat part is correct. As long as you have the entry feat, you can take as a bonus feat any feat of the chain without the prerequisites.

[stack]

You have it correct, you can take them early and out of order. There is a reason it is a common 1-2 level dip in all kinds of builds. Probably not the best thought-out archetyps in the game.

[djwood]

You have it correct, you can take them early and out of order. There is a reason it is a common 1-2 level dip in all kinds of builds. Probably not the best thought-out archetyps in the game.

How come down the road it isn't a good archetype?

[Molosse]

How come down the road it isn't a good archetype?

Oh it remains a decent archetype as you progress, it's just that the Archetype is very front-loaded.

For example a MoMS / Brawler manages to circumvent the issue of losing Flurry of Blows while still gaining all the front-loaded Monk goodness.

[Geddy2112]

You are correct. Master of many styles is stupidly good, and not just for the free feats without entry requirements. The fact that you can stack two style feats on top of each other with a single level is fantastic.

Snake+crane-lol good luck hitting me

Grabbing+kraken-grab people then bash their heads in

Dragon+mantis-stunning fist insanity

Panther+kirin-turn full round moves into AoO fests but never get hit.

[Kurald Galain]

You are correct. Master of many styles is stupidly good, and not just for the free feats without entry requirements. The fact that you can stack two style feats on top of each other with a single level is fantastic.
True, but you'll quickly run out of swift actions to activate it.

For example, panther+kirin requires one swift action to start one style, then one more swift to start the second, then both styles require a swift action to actually use them. That's... quite a lot of swift actions, and it blocks you from using e.g. a jingasa of the fortunate soldier.

[Extra Anchovies]

You have it correct, you can take them early and out of order. There is a reason it is a common 1-2 level dip in all kinds of builds. Probably not the best thought-out archetype in the game.

"Probably not the best thought-out archetype" is an understatement. MoMS is the worst piece of balance-breaking trash that Paizo has ever printed. It's never taken past level 2, and it's only taken in builds that are trying to do something stupidly cheesy by stacking style feats that aren't meant to be stackable. That archetype should never have been created, and in fact should be removed. It's one of the few things that I ban without exception, along with Sacred Geometry*.

*Yes, I know it's odd to call out Sacred Geometry while describing something else as "the worst piece of balance-breaking trash that Paizo has ever printed", but at least Sacred Geometry does the job it's supposed to. MoMS can't even stand up on its own, so it's terrible at the same time as being broken.

[Novawurmson]

True, but you'll quickly run out of swift actions to activate it.

For example, panther+kirin requires one swift action to start one style, then one more swift to start the second, then both styles require a swift action to actually use them. That's... quite a lot of swift actions, and it blocks you from using e.g. a jingasa of the fortunate soldier.

Well, eventually, you can take Combat Style Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/combat-style-master-combat).

I like the archetype - unarmed fighting has so many issues in core Pathfinder, and style feats are about the only way to fix it in a Paizo-only environment.

[IZ42]

"Probably not the best thought-out archetype" is an understatement. MoMS is the worst piece of balance-breaking trash that Paizo has ever printed. It's never taken past level 2, and it's only taken in builds that are trying to do something stupidly cheesy by stacking style feats that aren't meant to be stackable. That archetype should never have been created, and in fact should be removed. It's one of the few things that I ban without exception, along with Sacred Geometry*.

*Yes, I know it's odd to call out Sacred Geometry while describing something else as "the worst piece of balance-breaking trash that Paizo has ever printed", but at least Sacred Geometry does the job it's supposed to. MoMS can't even stand up on its own, so it's terrible at the same time as being broken.

So it's balance breaking because *gasp* martials are getting something mildly useful? MoMS allows martials (specifically, Unarmed Martials, arguably the weakest) access to some nice combos that still don't rival any tier 1. MoMS is probably one of the 4 things the original monk had going for it, with the other three being Zen Archer, Qinggong, and Hungry Ghost, and banning it is basically curb-stomping the monk. Why ban anything that could make a weak class useful?

Now I agree with you on Sacred Geometry. What was paizo smoking?

[Extra Anchovies]

So it's balance breaking because *gasp* martials are getting something mildly useful? MoMS allows martials (specifically, Unarmed Martials, arguably the weakest) access to some nice combos that still don't rival any tier 1. MoMS is probably one of the 4 things the original monk had going for it, with the other three being Zen Archer, Qinggong, and Hungry Ghost, and banning it is basically curb-stomping the monk. Why ban anything that could make a weak class useful?

I'm not of the opinion that anything that somehow makes martial characters better is a good thing. It's true that MoMS lets martials do some wacky powerful stuff, but I don't think MoMS is the right way to fix the caster-martial power disparity. People need to stop pointing fingers and calling out people for hating martials when there's a certain martial-focused option they don't want to allow in their games. Giving the Fighter (Su) Wish 3/day would help fix the power gap, but that doesn't mean it's something that should be in the game.

[Geddy2112]

So it's balance breaking because *gasp* martials are getting something mildly useful? MoMS allows martials (specifically, Unarmed Martials, arguably the weakest) access to some nice combos that still don't rival any tier 1.

The thing is, MoMS is not just good for martial classes. Wis based classes can go to town with this. Druid using crane/snake while beast shape, clerics doing the same. A wizard with kirin strike adding double intelligence mod to ranged touch attacks and getting bonuses to identify creatures? I don't know many other builds getting use from that style.

[djwood]

You are correct. Master of many styles is stupidly good, and not just for the free feats without entry requirements. The fact that you can stack two style feats on top of each other with a single level is fantastic.

Snake+crane-lol good luck hitting me

Grabbing+kraken-grab people then bash their heads in

Dragon+mantis-stunning fist insanity

Panther+kirin-turn full round moves into AoO fests but never get hit.

Well I'm doing a natural attacker that has claws and bite attack. I'm mixing boar style and jabbing style DPS BABY. It's a pretty good combo especially that I'm multiclassing with barbarian

So basically

I'm a MOMs for 3-4 levels for boar and jabbing

And the rest in raging cannibal

How's that build? Is it good or NAHHH?

[Geddy2112]

Well I'm doing a natural attacker that has claws and bite attack. I'm mixing boar style and jabbing style DPS BABY. It's a pretty good combo especially that I'm multiclassing with barbarian

So basically

I'm a MOMs for 3-4 levels for boar and jabbing

And the rest in raging cannibal

How's that build? Is it good or NAHHH?

This works, but your going to need to take feral combat training which requires weapon focus before you can apply your style feats to combat. It will do a lot of damage, and combined with the biting you will some form of primal Mike Tyson.

[Vhaidara]

I'm not of the opinion that anything that somehow makes martial characters better is a good thing. It's true that MoMS lets martials do some wacky powerful stuff, but I don't think MoMS is the right way to fix the caster-martial power disparity. People need to stop pointing fingers and calling out people for hating martials when there's a certain martial-focused option they don't want to allow in their games. Giving the Fighter (Su) Wish 3/day would help fix the power gap, but that doesn't mean it's something that should be in the game.

This. I remember that when I wrote my Mutant class, people were running damage sims. At pretty much any level, the difference between Mutant X and Mutant X-2/MoMS 2 was about 100+ DPR.

[upho]

This. I remember that when I wrote my Mutant class, people were running damage sims. At pretty much any level, the difference between Mutant X and Mutant X-2/MoMS 2 was about 100+ DPR.Yeah. As the person responsible for most of those sims, I would say MoMS easily gets broken when combined with Pummeling Style and a ton of natural attacks with FCT (I'm talking dealing 1500+ damage to the CR 25 Tarrasque in one charge at 15th level kinda broken). But aside from this rather specific combo (otherwise only viable for summoner synths and manifesters like psychic warriors, with access to Path of War stances), and a few style feats getting silly when accessed at early levels, I think MoMS would be perfectly fine. Though the bonus style feats should've been limited by level à la ranger IMO.

Also, I think the far most broken part of a MoMS dip isn't actually the archetype itself, but easy access to the silly broken Pummeling Style and some very effective damage boosters that complement it. Pummeling Style is a feat that can easily become increasingly broken the further up the levels you get, even for a single-classed monk. I'm thinking of the following two sentences from the feat's benefit (my emphasis):

If any of the attack rolls are critical threats, make one confirmation roll for the entire attack at your highest base attack bonus. If it succeeds, the entire attack is a confirmed critical hit.With for example Improved Critical, Critical Focus, Pummeling Charge, Horn of the Criosphinx, Dragon Style and Ferocity, and whatever other high damage and crit boosters you can find and a maximized number of unarmed strikes/natural attacks, these two sentences can make a mid-/high-level death machine beyond comparison. It could've been perfectly acceptable had it just worked as Clustered Shots instead of this idiocy. I wonder what the devs were thinking, if they were thinking at all...
:smallannoyed:

I've changed Pummeling Style in my home game, but haven't (yet) seen a need for nerfing MoMS. At least most martial builds I've seen dipping MoMS (ie not stupid broken chargers with Pummeling Charge) seem fine, and many times MoMS is what gives them their unique combat mechanic, sometimes even allowing them to focus on something really tactically interesting instead of just dealing damage! Heresy, I know! :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

Well, eventually, you can take Combat Style Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/combat-style-master-combat).

I like the archetype - unarmed fighting has so many issues in core Pathfinder, and style feats are about the only way to fix it in a Paizo-only environment.

This. There's very little the archetype actually lets you do that can't simply be done with this feat.

[upho]

This. There's very little the archetype actually lets you do that can't simply be done with this feat.Well, I dunno if I'd call for example Pummeling Charge at 2nd "very little". And there are quite a few style feat combos that only work if both styles are active simultaneously, such as most of the charge, damage and movement/AoO related ones.

But otherwise, I agree, and besides the broken Pummeling Style and the sometimes too early access to certain style feats MoMS allows, I like the archetype as well as the Combat Style Master feat.

[Psyren]

And there are quite a few style feat combos that only work if both styles are active simultaneously, such as most of the charge, damage and movement/AoO related ones.

You can still do that with CSM - As of Melee Tactics Toolbox, you can take a free action during another action, letting you e.g. switch styles mid-charge until they FAQ it. (Assuming they didn't intend this, which we don't even know.)

And Pummeling Style isn't broken. Crit-fishing with Unarmed Strikes is both silly and feat-intensive, and extending that to other monk weapons is even moreso. You also lose a lot of damage by going from Flurry down to a mere full-attack.

[upho]

You can still do that with CSM - As of Melee Tactics Toolbox, you can take a free action during another action, letting you e.g. switch styles mid-charge until they FAQ it. (Assuming they didn't intend this, which we don't even know.)Oh, I didn't know that. Then it seems a lot more viable, I agree.


And Pummeling Style isn't broken.So easily taking out the Tarrasque in a single charge at maybe 15th level isn't broken? Didn't know you were such a Tippy-ist! :smalltongue:


Crit-fishing with Unarmed Strikes is both silly and feat-intensive, and extending that to other monk weapons is even moreso.That would normally be the case, yes. In the case of Pummeling Style, definitely not. Read the two sentences I quoted in my previous post again, and think of what they actually say.


You also lose a lot of damage by going from Flurry down to a mere full-attack.Be a brawler and dip if you want flurry back. Doesn't really matter since you can get the feat the normal way, without being a MoMS monk. The point is no martial build without Pummeling Style can have an average damage output even remotely close to that of a Pummeling Style-based one, at least not after say 10th level. And since a Pummel-build will typically end up having at the very least a 40% chance of critting with every single attack in his pounce, the more difficult it is to hit the opponent, the greater the Pummel-build's average DPR advantage gets.

Here's an example build I made on request for the The Psychic Warrior's Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361785-PF-Slicing-Clawing-and-Smashing-a-Guide-to-the-Pathfinder-Psychic-Warrior-WIP) (simply replace the build's claw attacks with unarmed strikes and you get the picture):


Huge half-giant psychic warrior 14, master of many styles monk 2, stalker 2

Primary Path Feral Warrior
Secondary Path Infiltrator

Progression of Feats, Powers and Maneuvers
1 Expanded Knowledge (metamorphosis5th, minor, major13th); Half-giant Psionic Talent; PW1 Power Attack claws of the beast
2 PW2 Intimidating Prowess
3 Weapon Focus (claws) Dragon Ferocity9th
4
5 Feral Combat Training (claws); MoMS1 IUS, Pummeling Style, Stunning Fist
6 MoMS2 Pummeling Charge
7 Dragon Style Stalker1 Murderous Insight, Black Seraph's Glare
8 Stalker2 Broken Blade Stance
9 Horn of the Criosphinx; PW5 Psionic Fist; Opalescent white pyramid Weapon Focus (claws)
10
11 Unavoidable Strike
12 PW8 Critical Focus
13 Advanced Feral Path
14
15 Black Seraph Style; PW11 Black Seraph's Malevolence
16
17 Black Seraph Annihilation
18 PW14 Deceitful
19 Advanced Infiltrator Path
20
Stuff granted by items or powers are listed as gained at a reasonable level relative their costs/prerequisites. Demoralize-related options in gray, retrained feat followed by the feat replacing itat level

Skills
Acrobatics 8, Intimidate 37P, Perception 36P, Use Magic Device 20, plus 20 additional skill points
P includes +6 bonus of warrior's path

Traits
Psionic Knack, Psionic Power Focus (claws of the beast, Feral Trance)

Active Manifestations
ML 16 (effective ML 18), 161 pp/day 80 pp psychic warrior, +63 pp wis bonus, +16 pp favored class bonus, +2 pp Psionic Talent
Claws of the beast at start of day, augment 2 (total 2 pp), 18 hours +1 damage die size (explicitly stacks with "effective size" increases)
Metamorphosis permanent, augment 2, ML 7 (Skin of Proteus) 2 categories size increase, +10 ft. speed, Resist fire 5
Major metamorphosis with 1st attack each combat, using martial power, augment 4 (tot 14 pp), 18 minutes +3 additional claw attacks, +4 dex enhancement, Improved Critical (all natural attacks)

Active Stances and Abilities
Broken Blade Stance since start of day, until changed +2 additional claw attacks when making full attack
Feral Trance while claws of the beast is active +4 to claw attack and damage rolls
Dragon Style until changed +6 claw damage, charge through allies and ignore difficult terrain, +2 to saves against sleep, paralysis, and stunning effects
Pummeling Style until changed claw attacks in full attack deal damage as one, one crit means whole attack crits, can be used on a charge
Murderous Insight as swift action in 1st combat turn, 8 rounds spends 1 ki (of 8/day), roll twice for each attack, pick best result

Relevant Gear
+5 Amulet of Mighty Frost Fist, Skin of Proteus, +3 Mithral brawling celestial plate, +5 Cloak of resistance, Wand of strong jaw (active), +6 Belt (str, con), Headband (+6 wis, +2 int, cha), +4 manual (str), +2 tome (wis), Boots of Speed (active), Corset of Delicate Moves, Cracked opalescent white pyramid in Wayfinder (WF claws)

Ability Scores 20 PB
Str 36 16 base, +2 racial, +4 level, +4 manual, +6 belt, +4 size huge Skin of Proteus
Dex 10 12 base, -2 racial, +4 augment metamorphosis, -4 size huge Skin of Proteus
Con 22 15 base, +1 level, +6 belt
Int 10 10 base
Wis 24 14 base, +2 racial, +2 tome, +6 headband
Cha 7 7 base

Initiative +7 +7 wis (combat insight)

Base Defenses
The following include only the bonuses of abilities, class bonuses, items etc listed above, not those of any additional gear or powers:
HP 214 8 +(19 x 4.5) hit die, +(20 x 6 con)
AC 19 10 +12 armor, +1 haste, -4 size, +???
Fort 24, Ref 21, Will 23



And a detailed look at the numbers when Psycho makes his trademark charge:

Speed 140 ft. 30 normal, +10 metamorphosis, +30 haste, x2 charge
Attacks 8 2 from claws of the beast, +3 from major metamorphosis, +2 from Broken Blade Stance, +1 from haste
Attack Bonus +36 +14 bab, +13 str, +1 Weapon Focus, +5 AoMFF, +2 brawling, +4 feral trance, +1 haste, +2 charge, -4 Power Attack, -2 size
Critical Threat 19-20 Improved Critical (from major metamorphosis)
Crit Confirmation Bonus +40 +4 Critical Focus
Damage Die 8d6 (claws of the beast claws) / 12d8 (major metamorphosis claws) 1d4 medium, 1d6 half-giant, 1d8 monk, 2d6 large size, 3d6 huge size, 4d6 augment, 8d6 strong jaw / 2d8 large, 3d8 half-giant, 4d8 monk, 6d8 huge size, 12d8 strong jaw
Damage Bonus +55, +1d6 cold +32 str, +12 Power Attack, +5 AoMFF, +2 brawling, +4 feral trance, +1d6 cold AoMFF
Average Hit Damage 86.5 per claws of the beast claw / 112.5 per major metamorphosis claw
Average Crit Damage 1620 (2 x 169.5 claws of the beast claws) + (6 x 221.5 major metamorphosis claws)



Let's test drive Psycho and have him ram the Tarrasque (CR 25, AC 40) with a Pummeling Charge and the mentioned boosts:


Psycho's Pummeling Style attack has an 81.5% chance to result in a crit (1-(0.9 probability of no crit x 1.0 probability of crit confirmation)16 attack rolls). Meaning the average damage generated from the average probability of a crit alone means the Tarrasque takes about 1305 points of damage ((1620 average crit damage x 0.815 crit chance) -15 DR/epic). Which is just about enough to one-shot the Tarrasque 2.5 times. So even when disregarding the average damage dealt by the average (albeit small) number of normal hits, one average charge by Psycho means this legendary monster would need about 20 rounds to put itself together again, despite having a godlike regeneration 40.

As the Tarrasque has the same initiative bonus as Psycho, a slower charge speed (max 80 ft.), doesn't deal nearly enough average damage to kill Psycho in one turn and lacks other abilities with which to shut him down or avoid his charge, the Tarrasque will most probably be pretty damn FUBAR after the opening round.

[Kurald Galain]

Yeah. As the person responsible for most of those sims, I would say MoMS easily gets broken when combined with Pummeling Style and a ton of natural attacks with FCT
Yeah, the problem with that is really Pummeling Style, and not so much MOMS.

Whoever wrote PS clearly hadn't considered FCT and Martial Versatility. Indeed, said writer has confirmed on the forums that PS isn't supposed to work with MV; although the way it's written it arguably does anyway. This should probably get errata.

[Ssalarn]

And Pummeling Style isn't broken. Crit-fishing with Unarmed Strikes is both silly and feat-intensive, and extending that to other monk weapons is even moreso. You also lose a lot of damage by going from Flurry down to a mere full-attack.
Not necessarily true. The Fighter's biggest DPR advantage is Weapon Mastery, when he auto-confirms critical hits; this gives him an almost 30% damage boost over the Barbarian when comparing full attack routines, last time I saw someone run the numbers.

A monk with Improved Critical (UAS) crits roughly 10% of the time, but with haste or a speed AoMF and a ki point he can get upwards of 9+ attacks, meaning he's actually very likely to score a critical threat on any given round, and that critical threat is always confirmed at your highest bonus, even if it was scored with your last iterative which you normally wouldn't be able to confirm without rolling another 20. So if you do roll a crit with any one of your 9 or so attacks (very likely) and then you confirm that threat with your full BAB, charging bonus, best chance to hit (also very likely) then all 9 attacks are criticals. Pummeling Style gives the character who has it the highest chance of scoring the most critical hits of any build in the game that I'm aware of, and it almost invariably causes a ludicrous spike in that character's DPR that simply can't be matched by anything else.

MoMS is problematic and poorly designed because:
1) It's too heavily front-loaded. It's a no-brainer dip for a lot of builds because there's almost no two levels that can give a character so much so fast.

2) It makes it impossible to gate style Feats appropriately with strong prereqs. If you can grab feats intended for level 12+ at level 2, those feats are always going to seem broken, because at that level, they are. Master of Many Styles is the culprit behind Crane Wing getting nerfed into uselessness; it wasn't that the Crane Wing line was too strong in and of itself, it was the fact that there were all these level 2-3 characters negating 1 attack a round at a level when almost all enemies only have 1 viable attack a round, creating insurmountable action economy advantages. I argued then that it was Master of Many Styles that needed to be nerfed, but unfortunately too many people had already decided on fixing the wrong culprit.

[upho]

Yeah, the problem with that is really Pummeling Style, and not so much MOMS.

Whoever wrote PS clearly hadn't considered FCT and Martial Versatility. Indeed, said writer has confirmed on the forums that PS isn't supposed to work with MV; although the way it's written it arguably does anyway. This should probably get errata.Don't think FCT is much of a problem with PS, actually, since you need a lot of natural attacks of the same type (or spend even more feat slots on WF and FCT) before they start being competitive with the crit probability generated by iterative attacks. And even getting beyond as few as 3 natural attacks of the same type using only Paizo options (2 base, +1 haste, divine power etc) is again typically problematic for most martial builds. You need plenty of evolution points, an ability to spam major metamorphosis or at the very least a "roll attack twice, pick best"-ability (like the stalker's Murderous Insight) to get up to a crit probability and effect on par with monk US.

And MV... :smalleek: Hadn't even thought about it before I read your post. So a TWF build having (or being treated as having) 4 levels of fighter can more than double their DPR at the cost of three feats (IUS, PS, MV)? Pretty silly. And I guess MV also applies to for example Dragon Ferocity and maybe even Horn of the Criosphinx (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/horn-of-the-criosphinx-combat)? If that's the case, something like a katar-wielding TWF build with a maximized number of applicable natural attacks (bites?) would probably break the DPR "world record" for a non-synth in PF. The Pummeling Charge could then consist of at least 10 "crit x4" katar attacks plus 4 bites, all receiving a x2.5 str bonus to damage. Would of course be horribly feat intense though...


Not necessarily true. The Fighter's biggest DPR advantage is Weapon Mastery, when he auto-confirms critical hits; this gives him an almost 30% damage boost over the Barbarian when comparing full attack routines, last time I saw someone run the numbers.

A monk with Improved Critical (UAS) crits roughly 10% of the time, but with haste or a speed AoMF and a ki point he can get upwards of 9+ attacks, meaning he's actually very likely to score a critical threat on any given round, and that critical threat is always confirmed at your highest bonus, even if it was scored with your last iterative which you normally wouldn't be able to confirm without rolling another 20. So if you do roll a crit with any one of your 9 or so attacks (very likely) and then you confirm that threat with your full BAB, charging bonus, best chance to hit (also very likely) then all 9 attacks are criticals. Pummeling Style gives the character who has it the highest chance of scoring the most critical hits of any build in the game that I'm aware of, and it almost invariably causes a ludicrous spike in that character's DPR that simply can't be matched by anything else.

MoMS is problematic and poorly designed because:
1) It's too heavily front-loaded. It's a no-brainer dip for a lot of builds because there's almost no two levels that can give a character so much so fast.

2) It makes it impossible to gate style Feats appropriately with strong prereqs. If you can grab feats intended for level 12+ at level 2, those feats are always going to seem broken, because at that level, they are. Master of Many Styles is the culprit behind Crane Wing getting nerfed into uselessness; it wasn't that the Crane Wing line was too strong in and of itself, it was the fact that there were all these level 2-3 characters negating 1 attack a round at a level when almost all enemies only have 1 viable attack a round, creating insurmountable action economy advantages. I argued then that it was Master of Many Styles that needed to be nerfed, but unfortunately too many people had already decided on fixing the wrong culprit.This. I agree with every word. And thank you for clarifying how PS works so I don't have to do it again...

[AvatarVecna]

How come down the road it isn't a good archetype?

Because that would require taking Monk past level 6.