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View Full Version : Genericizing 4e D&D to a more flexible system



Segev
2015-06-17, 10:22 AM
This is an off-the-cuff idea, so please forgive any lack of rigor. However, one of my biggest complaints about 4e's class structure is, in truth, one of its biggest strengths when you consider that their primary design consideration was game balance through class parity. I actually think they may have stumbled on a great alternative to certain points-based systems, but that they actually messed up by constraining it to a class-based design.

d20 Modern and SAGA Edition Star Wars came close to the right broad approach from another angle, but were constrained by the 3e-chassis to which they tied their own class design.

What if everybody had the same level-based "skeleton" for their universal genriclass. Something roughly like (though again, please don't expect rigorous balance or even adherence to 4e's standards; I do not know them well enough to do it off the top of my head):

Level 1: 2 at-will, 2 encounter, 1 daily
Level 2: 1 encounter or 1 at-will
Level 3: 1 daily
Level 4: 1 encounter or 1 at-will
Level 5: 1 at-will and 1 daily
etc.

(Those with more 4e experience, feel free to suggest more rigorous progressions)

Powers would come in trees, possibly with criss-crossing paths that could allow for multiple prereq options to the same power. But in general, you structure "classes" through the prerequisites, allowing people to start new trees and climb to what they want, or to specialize in one or two trees to climb very high.

I think this would lend itself to modern- and sci-fi games a lot better than d20 modern does, taking the strengths of SAGA and 4e and reshaping them for the slightly less class-centric design that I feel better comprises non-fantasy settings. While still being level-based rather than full-on points-based.

JBPuffin
2015-06-17, 11:35 AM
Cut down on the number of powers by a TON (aka, use the 4e standard progression), and that's definitely workable.

Segev
2015-06-17, 12:51 PM
I mainly don't recall the 4e standard progression, or I would have used it in my example.

Hawkstar
2015-06-17, 01:16 PM
I know I would love to have seen 4e adapted into a Mech Combat game.

Anonymouswizard
2015-06-17, 01:26 PM
I like the idea, especially if it used 'trees' that 4e left out. How would you organise trees, by power type, by role, or by both? And would you restrict power types to one per character, or could an 'Arcane Gunslinger' take powers from an Arcane Striker tree and Martial Striker tree?

I think it's actually a really good idea, as Feats fill in the slot opened by the lack of class abilities. I'd suggest getting rid of the level bonus and toping out the progression at when you get your final daily power slot, but I can see using such a system for action games regardless.

Segev
2015-06-17, 03:21 PM
I'd probably organize trees in a way that almost replaces classes. That is, follow a tree from beginning to end, and you're filling one particular role fairly solidly. But have trees be small enough that you can fit at least one entire tree in a fully-leveled build and still have room for around half of another, even at your most focused.

(Again, speaking VERY broadly, here.)

I'm picturing trees being roughly as thematically linked as 3e feat trees. So there might be several "mecha pilot" type trees, and one of them would lead up the "ace, really good at dodging and taking trick/sniper shots" path, another up the "dogfighter extraordinaire" path with moving-while-shooting and hail-of-bullets and "tail 'em" powers. Still another would be for being a competent wingman, keeping your allies clear. While there'd probably be 1-2 for the "bonded pilot" route, whether it's the Gundam-style "newtype psychic" or the Eva-style "this mech was made for you" thing, they'd play up the pilot's personal link to the mecha in a few ways.

I'm seeing ways of organizing it, but unless and until I started writing some, I think I'll have difficulty articulating it clearly.

The very rough idea would be to start with 1-3 "basic" introductory powers in a theme, then have them open up (together or individually) powers which build on those that came before, whether complementing or improving them or taking them in another direction.

...to an extent, I suppose Solar Exalted Charm Trees might be a way to look at it. (Again, organizationally, not for actual mechanics.)

LibraryOgre
2015-06-17, 03:28 PM
You might also draw more from Saga, and have the trees more related to talents, with power-type stuff going along the lines of force powers. In a way, that's what the 4e essentials seemed to do... you had relatively few powers, with talents and feats modifying their function.

Anonymouswizard
2015-06-17, 03:41 PM
I'd probably organize trees in a way that almost replaces classes. That is, follow a tree from beginning to end, and you're filling one particular role fairly solidly. But have trees be small enough that you can fit at least one entire tree in a fully-leveled build and still have room for around half of another, even at your most focused.

(Again, speaking VERY broadly, here.)

I'm picturing trees being roughly as thematically linked as 3e feat trees. So there might be several "mecha pilot" type trees, and one of them would lead up the "ace, really good at dodging and taking trick/sniper shots" path, another up the "dogfighter extraordinaire" path with moving-while-shooting and hail-of-bullets and "tail 'em" powers. Still another would be for being a competent wingman, keeping your allies clear. While there'd probably be 1-2 for the "bonded pilot" route, whether it's the Gundam-style "newtype psychic" or the Eva-style "this mech was made for you" thing, they'd play up the pilot's personal link to the mecha in a few ways.

I'm seeing ways of organizing it, but unless and until I started writing some, I think I'll have difficulty articulating it clearly.

The very rough idea would be to start with 1-3 "basic" introductory powers in a theme, then have them open up (together or individually) powers which build on those that came before, whether complementing or improving them or taking them in another direction.

...to an extent, I suppose Solar Exalted Charm Trees might be a way to look at it. (Again, organizationally, not for actual mechanics.)

Hmmm... what if you organised At-Will powers into groups, and then built trees off of those groups, for example:

Category: Mecha Pilot
[At Will Powers]
-'Ace' Power Tree
-'Wingman' Power Tree
-'Brute' Power Tree

Category: Magician
[At Will Powers]
-'Summoner' Power Tree
-'Elementalist' Power Tree
-'Diviner' Power Tree

Category: Gunslinger
[At Will Powers]
-'Trick Shot' Power Tree
-'Sniper' Power Tree
-'Dakka' Power Tree

Category: Hunter
[At Will Powers]
-'Stalker' Power Tree
-'Beastmaster' Power Tree
-'Ranger' Power Tree (based on using terrain).

ScrivenerofDoom
2015-06-18, 12:54 PM
Build PCs as monsters and even use the monster builder. There's a flexible system just begging to be used right there.

AceOfFools
2015-06-18, 02:23 PM
I'd suggest getting rid of the level bonus...

This is actually really important for adapting 4E, especially if the genre doesn't support regularly throwing out your old equipment for higher + versions every few levels.

Monsters get +1 to attack rolls and defenses every level. Players get 1/2 of that from leveling and somewhat less than they get from leveling from equipment and stat increases, causing characters to get less effective vs an equal level challenge the higher level they are.

The rest of 4E is actually really good, but the reverse scaling is pretty unforgivable.

Anonymouswizard
2015-06-18, 03:33 PM
This is actually really important for adapting 4E, especially if the genre doesn't support regularly throwing out your old equipment for higher + versions every few levels.

Monsters get +1 to attack rolls and defenses every level. Players get 1/2 of that from leveling and somewhat less than they get from leveling from equipment and stat increases, causing characters to get less effective vs an equal level challenge the higher level they are.

The rest of 4E is actually really good, but the reverse scaling is pretty unforgivable.

I forgot about the monster scaling bit to be honest, I just suggested it because I don't see the point, any check you need to make is assumed to scale to your level 9/10, so it doesn't really do much.

On the monster scaling though, from level 1-30 monsters get +29 to attack and defences.

PCs get +15 from their level, +6 from a magic item, and +3 if weapon focus applies, for a total of +24 to attack rolls. To defences they get +15 from levels, +6 from magic armour, and maybe an additional +4 if that armour is of a special variety, for +25.

Fix that, or remove it, and I'd actually like 4e. Maybe scaling power by damage would work better (so a 1st level has an at-will damage of 1[w] while a level 10 has 1[w]+9).

Gilphon
2015-06-19, 04:34 PM
You're forgetting the ability score increases. That brings the total attack bonus for PCs to +28. Which looks like it's one point behind the monsters, but is neutralized by the fact that monsters above level 30 are almost non-existent, so high-level characters stop having to deal with things more than one or two levels above them.

The defences are harder, but not by much: +15 for half level, +6 for enchantment. And then, for AC, you have either +2 for masterwork and +4 for stat increases or +6 for masterwork (depending on whether you're using heavy or light armour) so you have +27. On the other defences, you gets +3 from feat bonus and anywhere from +1 to +4 from ability score increases, depending on your build. You can also pick up magic items that give you an additional +3, so basically works out to cancelling out the variance in builds, unless you decide you're willing to sacrifice a defence. But anyway, it's +28, just like attack bonus.

So really, the PCs only lose one point of AC relative to the monsters. Though the assumption here is, of course, that the players understand all of this. It's easy to end up further behind if you don't know what doing. Mostly because you think you can get away with not increasing your primary stat at every opportunity and/or not taking Weapon Expertise.

Cluedrew
2015-06-20, 09:31 AM
A "multi-class" equivalent might be to explore branches you didn't before instead of just going up the tree every time. So if you took the sword specialty branch before but wanted to become tougher you could unlock part of the shield branch. This could also create a soft level cap because you can always choice to do some training in a different, but still relevant skill.

A question though, what sort of "passive" upgrades would be used in this system? Is it completely skill focused or is that just the highlight here?

Segev
2015-06-21, 09:01 AM
Hm. The distinction between "feats" and "powers" may not really make sense, given the lack of classes to constrain "powers" and the tree structure of prerequisites that replaces them. I was definitely seeing this as something that, if you chose, you could hop in and out of any trees you wanted by your power selection. So if you picked up powers A and B in the "Wear Armor Better" tree, and then wanted to pick up power 1 in the "divine magic" tree, you could; you're not FORCED to pick up powers later in a tree. You might still be encouraged to do so simply because later powers will be more potent.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "passive" upgrades. Do you mean skill points/ranks (e.g. 4e's selection of skills to which you add +5 for being trained, and otherwise just add half your level), or do you mean something like the stat boosts every few levels? Or something else?

Cluedrew
2015-06-21, 12:46 PM
Passive is anything you don't have to activate. Stat increases and that sort of thing. You were talking mostly about active abilities so I was wondering about other upgrades, but your latest post seems to have it mixed it.

LibraryOgre
2015-06-21, 04:06 PM
So, given the links between 4e and SWSE, I'll pimp a couple of my pieces of work...

Classless SAGA
http://rpgcrank.blogspot.com/2013/07/classless-saga-and-other-alterations.html

And, shoot, I'll have to go looking for Level-less Saga that we worked out on the boards... never posted it to the blog. Watch this space.

EDIT: Levelless SAGA

http://rpgcrank.blogspot.com/2015/06/h1-levelless-star-wars-saga.html