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View Full Version : Mutants and Masterminds 3rd edition. I need help bringing some concepts to life.



Metahuman1
2015-06-17, 10:30 AM
So, lately I've been swamped with College work for the semester. To the point that when a game came up on another site that I was interested in, I couldn't find the time to sit down and hammer out mechanics for any of like a number of concepts that would have been fun to run with. Though I grant a few of them are heavily inspired by other sources, I still feel they'd have fit in with this game.

So, Instead of coming in as a player, I applied and was accepted as a reader, and I'm following along with the people who are actually playing as they post.

Now, to the build help, I've got the concepts, I'd like some help figuring out how to stat them up. I'm hoping that if most of the figuring comes here, all I'll have to do is punch it into a sheet between classes to get the mechanics, and flush out the history during the same. And that if I do it that way, I'll have a selection of characters ready to go when and if the game starts experiencing player attrition, and hopefully I can get into it that way, or at least be ready if I'm given another chance to apply as a player because he does some re-recruiting.


Game is PL 10 - 150pp. Games theme is a boarding school for young adults with a predisposition toward the super natural, in a world were the super natural exists under normal humanity's radar on purpose for various reasons. Thus, were suppose to be able to keep a low profile. That might be relevant.

So: Character ideas

1: The Wizard: This one's heavily inspired by the Dresden Files, as I like the feel of how wizards in that setting work for the most part. My biggest problem would be how to reflect having removable devices that help with the spells in a meaningful way, while still being able to do magic with out those items handy. For sake of keeping it interesting and since Dresden Wizards do have alternate senses, I'm considering making him blind as a complication.

2: The Scientist: Ok, so, you remember that cartoon Dexters Lab? Picture that, with the main character older, and parents who finally caught on to him. I think this would be more a tech based gageteer/battle suit, but I'm really not sure as I've never done much with either archatype.

3: Ectoplasm: Kinda a ghost themed character. Idea drawn also from an old Cartoon. In this case, Danny Phantom. (Note: In later seasons I recall him getting Ice Powers, but I don't think I need that or that it gels with the rest of the theme necessarily, so, no worries there.)

4: Wuxia character: So, I noticed the party had a couple of different types of brute force characters. Physical muscle, energy based raw power, ext. That gave me the idea to do this character, who should play like a hero in an old Chinese martial arts epic with a super-natural bend. Small of body, no big muscles, no obvious super strength or the like most of the time, but using Chi and soft power themed fantasy martial arts, can and does fight at a super human level that can keep up with telekinetic's, giants, Paragons, Bricks and energy controllers at that power level.

5: Speedster: Ok, I know this is a more common archatype, but I've never done one before, so, help? Power source, I'm thinking, would be something kinda insane. (Probably walked into a bar to get directions to somewhere else, and found out it was a super natural Bar of a less then savory sort. And at that time, they'd gotten into a fight over a card game they were all cheating in, threw attacks from various sources at one another, and he got hit with all of them when he stepped in the door by accident, and it gave him super powers.). Once again, they have a lot of muscle in this party, so, I'd actually sorta prefer to stay clear of strength related things. I want to sell the idea that this character is formidable not because he's at all physically strong, but because he's just so insanely fast.

6: Finally, the game is gonna have a fairly heavy mythological theme, so, I though a character based on a Phoenix would be cool. Maybe a rank or two of Metamorph or a couple of points in feature to get access too appearing human. My Rough idea was to have him be quite young, a Phoenix who's never actually died before (But yes, at least 1 rank in immortal and immunity aging cause Phoenix I think.) and is some kind of young Noble among Phoenix's.

Probably flight and a chunk of fire and healing stuff. Maybe Strength limited to Lifting and/or some degree of physical strength, I'm not sure on that one. If there's something cool that can be worked in with a Phoenix's song, even if it's a small thing (A moral booster or something?)?



Yeah, I have vague notions here and there about things about the characters mechanics, but I'm not at all sure for any of them how to go about implamenting them for 95% or more of the build.

So, playground, can you help me?

Fri
2015-06-17, 11:18 AM
To be honest, all of them are pretty standard build-wise, and I'm sure you can just take an example character from the book and tinker them a bit to suit your need.

Can you for example, specify which part of any of the build that stump you, and maybe we can work from that?

Metahuman1
2015-06-17, 01:11 PM
Wizard: Biggest problem is working out how to stat devices making the powers better/easier to use, but not utterly essential to being able to do magic at all. Circa how it's done in the Dresden Files. As well as having room for lots of versatility with out killing point totals or being way short of power level caps.

Scientist: Ok, no, seriously, this is way out of my normal, I seldom do Science themed characters and definatly don't do Tech themed often. I am completely lost. Particularly since it sounds like I should be trying to mix up 2 Archatypes, and I certainly am not sure how that works in this system with out making both of them useless.

Ectoplasm: Ok this one's kinda just an Expy with an altered origin story. For this character. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Phantom#Characters In a later season they gave him an extra set of ability's, which were Ice themed and I'm less interested in for my purposes. He's got a few different powers that I'm not sure how to even go about stating up. (In particular the Ghostly Wail eludes me. ) And I'm worried about getting some of the powers he should have up and running up and running and meeting both PL caps and point totals.

Wuxia: So, I grasp the idea that this would need to be a lot of attack powers, probably with lots of afflictions and damage extras mixed about, but, other then that, feeling kinda lost.

Speedster: I keep seeing archetypes that have things listed as strength based damage on attack powers and the like. I'm sorta looking to avoid that. (Maybe it's just real world logic talking, but I like the idea of a short rail thin guy who can lay out a literal oger because he hit him so fast that it didn't matter his form was bad and he was small and physically no strong, it was coming a the speed of sound so the kinetic energy from that alone was able to cold **** him.) And most of them seem to be built on "Yeah, if you ever fight an accurate opponent, your still beaten, so that archer or karate guy is gonna destroy you cause he can hit you and you can't take it." and that just destroys the immersion for me, so I'm looking for a way to cut down on that. One that might not kill the point totals.

Phoenix: Ok, no, really, I am lost on how to bring this creature to life in an MM game, on this power level and point total, and make it feel right. Cool sound stuff that seems like fluff till you realize it's like an inspire courage deal, healing effects, all manner of fire shenanigans, flight, and it's suppose to be strong, and I need at least a little shapeshifting. I'm really feeling kinda lost.

Sith_Happens
2015-06-18, 02:45 AM
Wizard: Biggest problem is working out how to stat devices making the powers better/easier to use, but not utterly essential to being able to do magic at all. Circa how it's done in the Dresden Files.

Apply (Easily) Removable to some but not all of each such power's ranks.


As well as having room for lots of versatility with out killing point totals or being way short of power level caps.

Liberal use of arrays, the Variable Descriptor extra, and possibly a Variable effect. You can pretty much get as much bang for your buck this way as the GM will allow.

As a side note, if you want to have any spells with long casting times the easiest way to handle that is with the Ritualist advantage.


Scientist: Ok, no, seriously, this is way out of my normal, I seldom do Science themed characters and definatly don't do Tech themed often. I am completely lost. Particularly since it sounds like I should be trying to mix up 2 Archatypes, and I certainly am not sure how that works in this system with out making both of them useless.

In game terms a gadget is just a power with (Easily) Removable. I'm not sure what your question here is.


Ectoplasm: Ok this one's kinda just an Expy with an altered origin story. For this character. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Phantom#Characters In a later season they gave him an extra set of ability's, which were Ice themed and I'm less interested in for my purposes. He's got a few different powers that I'm not sure how to even go about stating up. (In particular the Ghostly Wail eludes me. ) And I'm worried about getting some of the powers he should have up and running up and running and meeting both PL caps and point totals.

The only one of Danny Phantom's powers that isn't extremely straightforward (Ghostly Wail is just an area attack, for example) is Overshadowing. The problem is more that he has a lot of powers, though once again arrays are your friend here.


Wuxia: So, I grasp the idea that this would need to be a lot of attack powers, probably with lots of afflictions and damage extras mixed about, but, other then that, feeling kinda lost.

Since you know how to build the techniques and abilities for this, it's just a matter of deciding what sorts of techniques and abilities you want. Also you probably want to go fairly heavy on advantages.


(Maybe it's just real world logic talking, but I like the idea of a short rail thin guy who can lay out a literal oger because he hit him so fast that it didn't matter his form was bad and he was small and physically no strong, it was coming a the speed of sound so the kinetic energy from that alone was able to cold **** him.)

That's called a slam attack. Just spend two points on Immunity from the recoil damage and you can do it all you want.


And most of them seem to be built on "Yeah, if you ever fight an accurate opponent, your still beaten, so that archer or karate guy is gonna destroy you cause he can hit you and you can't take it." and that just destroys the immersion for me, so I'm looking for a way to cut down on that. One that might not kill the point totals.

Yeah, thanks to power level limits you're kind of screwed on this unless you're willing to shell out for some extremely broad Immunities. You could dump your Toughness into the dirt and be nigh-impossible to hit, the drawback being that a single natural 20 or Perception attack (or two to three area attacks) is going to flatten you.

Depending on just how fast you plan on being one easy stopgap is just to exploit Move-By Action for fun and profit.


Phoenix: Ok, no, really, I am lost on how to bring this creature to life in an MM game, on this power level and point total, and make it feel right. Cool sound stuff that seems like fluff till you realize it's like an inspire courage deal, healing effects, all manner of fire shenanigans, flight, and it's suppose to be strong, and I need at least a little shapeshifting. I'm really feeling kinda lost.

Prioritize. The immortality, flight, and fire powers are the most iconic bits and easily doable within 150 points with at least some to spare. Definitely enough for the shapeshifting, which only costs six points if you're fine with only having one human form. If a GM lets you make the Healing an alternate effect of your fire attacks then you're golden, otherwise you might still be able to squeeze it into the build at a half-decent rank.

Beleriphon
2015-06-18, 10:37 AM
Wizard: Biggest problem is working out how to stat devices making the powers better/easier to use, but not utterly essential to being able to do magic at all. Circa how it's done in the Dresden Files. As well as having room for lots of versatility with out killing point totals or being way short of power level caps.

Removable powrs that essentially give the attack bonus for spells, or magical attacks. Remember that Improved Attribute doesn't have to be a stat like Strength or Intellect, is could be a skill like Ranged Attacks: Fireballs. The other option is to have side effects on powers, and then devices that make the character immune to said side effect.


Scientist: Ok, no, seriously, this is way out of my normal, I seldom do Science themed characters and definatly don't do Tech themed often. I am completely lost. Particularly since it sounds like I should be trying to mix up 2 Archatypes, and I certainly am not sure how that works in this system with out making both of them useless.

Really, the character is probably pretty much normal with a wide range or applicable skills, and a butt load of removable powers.


Ectoplasm: Ok this one's kinda just an Expy with an altered origin story. For this character. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Phantom#Characters In a later season they gave him an extra set of ability's, which were Ice themed and I'm less interested in for my purposes. He's got a few different powers that I'm not sure how to even go about stating up. (In particular the Ghostly Wail eludes me. ) And I'm worried about getting some of the powers he should have up and running up and running and meeting both PL caps and point totals.

Alterante Effects. As for the Wail its a Perception Area power (ie. if you can hear it you are affected). Just remember that incorporeal 4 is such a good defense that most character with this don't need anything in Toughness, since 99% of attacks just miss them outright. Add to which making attacks that affect normally corporeal characters only cost an extra 2 points in flat cost extras.


Wuxia: So, I grasp the idea that this would need to be a lot of attack powers, probably with lots of afflictions and damage extras mixed about, but, other then that, feeling kinda lost.

Leaping, stuff like different movement effects such as wall crawling or air walking. You could have them use a weapon as well.


Speedster: I keep seeing archetypes that have things listed as strength based damage on attack powers and the like. I'm sorta looking to avoid that. (Maybe it's just real world logic talking, but I like the idea of a short rail thin guy who can lay out a literal oger because he hit him so fast that it didn't matter his form was bad and he was small and physically no strong, it was coming a the speed of sound so the kinetic energy from that alone was able to cold **** him.) And most of them seem to be built on "Yeah, if you ever fight an accurate opponent, your still beaten, so that archer or karate guy is gonna destroy you cause he can hit you and you can't take it." and that just destroys the immersion for me, so I'm looking for a way to cut down on that. One that might not kill the point totals.

Mutliattack on strength works pretty well as a way to mimic hammering something to fast that it might as well be hitting with much greater force. If you work on the basis of having a much higher attack bonus than the damage than using close range multi-attacks work really, really well since you deal more damager the better you roll.


Phoenix: Ok, no, really, I am lost on how to bring this creature to life in an MM game, on this power level and point total, and make it feel right. Cool sound stuff that seems like fluff till you realize it's like an inspire courage deal, healing effects, all manner of fire shenanigans, flight, and it's suppose to be strong, and I need at least a little shapeshifting. I'm really feeling kinda lost.

Alternate Effects are your friend here. Also, don't try to do everything, it isn't going to work well. Specializing will work much better, but the character can still have bits of other effects. Remember that its hard to boost other character's numbers, you can work on removing negative effects but otherwise there isn't a great deal you can work about.

Sith_Happens
2015-06-18, 03:03 PM
As for the Wail its a Perception Area power (ie. if you can hear it you are affected).

Actually it works by sending out ectoplasmic shockwaves that physically damage things.

Demidos
2015-06-18, 03:33 PM
Would making your body out of literal living flames help?

Disclaimer, i know 0 about M&M, I just thought the phoenix thing sounded cool and thought i'd let you know :smallbiggrin:

Beleriphon
2015-06-18, 03:57 PM
Actually it works by sending out ectoplasmic shockwaves that physically damage things.

In that case it is a close range burst area power. Essentially the user the is center point of the effect, rather than being centered at some point at range.

dream
2015-06-18, 04:58 PM
Hm. I'll suggest the easiest: a Speedster;

Powers:
Super-Speed: Speed X (linked) + Enhanced Traits X: (+X Dodge, +X Parry, +X FGT, +X AGI, +X DEX, linked) + Enhanced Advantages X: (Accurate Attack, Agile Feint [Speed rank], All-Out Attack, Defensive Roll X, Evasion 2, Extraordinary Effort, Fast Grab, Improved Defense, Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative X, Improved Trip, Instant Up, Interpose, Move-by Action, Power Attack, Redirect, Seize Initiative, Skill Mastery X [Perception at least], Takedown, Teamwork, Uncanny Dodge, & Weapon Bind, linked) + Concealment X (Partial, linked)
*entire power is Dynamic to accommodate the Alternate effects that need Speed

100-Punch Combo: Damage X (Multiattack, Dynamic Alternate)
Wall Runner: Movement 2 (Wall-Crawling 2, limited to running speed rank 6+, Dynamic Alternate)
Sea Do: Movement 1 (Water-Walking, limited to Speed rank 5+, Dynamic Alternate)
Done!: Quickness X (Physical tasks only, Dynamic Alternate)
Catch a Bullet: Deflect X (rank should equal Parry; Close, Dynamic Alternate)
Gimme That!: Move Object X (Subtle 2, Insidious, limited to Stealing [Sleight of Hand], Dynamic Alternate)

These are all just suggestion that fit the Speedster theme. Tastes vary, so I gave plenty of examples to consider based on a revamp of the handbook's Speedster.

Easiest source Descriptor: Mutant ("I was born like this"). Others could be "Electrical", "Chemical", "Radiological", "Psionic", "Magical", ect. Pretty much anything that can be imagined. To be a little different, "Magic" is a nice one: the PC was empowered by a mage or magical artifact or supernatural being for some purpose.

Again, suggestions & I hope they help.

Grek
2015-06-18, 07:17 PM
And here's the hardest:
Wizard
Wizard Magic (3pts per rank + 10): Reversible Variable Descriptor (Magical) Array of {Easily Removable (Wand) Ranged Area 2 Selective Damage}, {Ranged Area 1 Damage}, {Removable (Ring) Continuous Impervious Create}, {Continuous Create}, {Removable (Ring) Restorative Area Healing}, {Restorative Healing} and {Removable (Mirror) No Conduit Remote Sensing 5}

This gives you the ability to blast, to heal, to create objects and to scry on people. If you lose your magic wand, the area of your blasting spells is reduced and you cannot exclude people from being hurt. If you lose your magic ring, you can only heal people one at a time and your summoned objects are weaker. If you lose your magic mirror, you cannot scry on people. You then take Ritualist, Artificer, Expertise: Magic, Ranged Combat: Evocations and a Senses power that gives you magic sensing.

For Scientist, you have basically two options: Gadgeteer (makes items that save the day) or Inventor (has one super invention which gives them all their powers). Decide which it is your character does.

For Wuxia, what you actually want to do is get Improved Critical (Unarmed Attack) up as high as possible, and use the Alternate Effect option of Improved Critical to supply your alternate effects. That way you're buying just a single attack.

Metahuman1
2015-06-18, 08:51 PM
Ok, on phone, response is short. Been killing self studying for test on Sat. But I haven't forgotten this thread, and this is looking promising even though all I can do right now is glance at it!

Sith_Happens
2015-06-19, 01:47 AM
For Wuxia, what you actually want to do is get Improved Critical (Unarmed Attack) up as high as possible, and use the Alternate Effect option of Improved Critical to supply your alternate effects. That way you're buying just a single attack.

Except that "as high as possible" is Rank 4 for a 16-20 threat range, which is hardly reliable.

Grek
2015-06-19, 08:21 AM
Its enough that 25% of your attacks can be Special Attacks that do unexpected magical things instead of (or in addition to) pure damage.

dream
2015-06-19, 11:06 AM
Wuxia (I'm assuming something very "Wire Fu"/Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon):

Powers:
Chi Attack: Move Object X (Damaging, Close, innate, Dynamic alternate)
Paralysis: Affliction X (resisted by Will; Entranced/Stunned/Paralyzed, Secondary effect, reversible, innate, Dynamic alternate)
Combination attack: Damage X (Multiattack, Limited to a single target, innate, Dynamic alternate)
Attack anyone within 30' feet: Damage X (Burst-Area, Selective, innate, Dynamic)
Super-Jump: Leaping X (innate, Dynamic Alternate)
Water-walking: Movement 2 (Water-Walking 2, innate, Dynamic Alternate)
Wall-Walking: Movement 2 (Wall-Crawling 2, innate, Dynamic alternate)
Lowered Mass: Shrinking 10 (Limited to body mass, Subtle 2, innate, Dynamic Alternate)
Block: Deflect X (innate, Close, Dynamic alternate)
Parry: Deflect X (innate, Close, Reflect, Dynamic alternate)
Throw: Move Object X (innate, Close, Limited to away from hero, Dynamic alternate)
Second Wind: Regeneration 20 (Standard action, -2 penalties per round, Unreliable; only usable once daily, alternate)

A good grouping to choose from based on style.

Sith_Happens
2015-06-19, 11:13 AM
Its enough that 25% of your attacks can be Special Attacks that do unexpected magical things instead of (or in addition to) pure damage.

Maybe it's just me, but when I want to break someone's knee instead of punching them in the face I'd like to be able to do it right away instead of waiting to roll the right number on my d20. Of course the whole thing is kind of moot anyways seeing as Improved Critical and Alternate Effect are both 1 point/rank so...

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114723/3849160-4369185785-original


Wuxia (I'm assuming something very "Wire Fu"/Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon):

Well first off, none of them should be Innate.


Paralysis: Affliction X (resisted by Will; Entranced/Stunned/Paralyzed, Secondary effect, reversible, innate, Dynamic alternate)

This seems to me like it should be resisted by Fortitude, but I guess it depends on how you fluff it.


Combination attack: Damage X (Multiattack, Limited to a single target, innate, Dynamic alternate)

"Single-target only" is most certainly a Quirk, not a Limitation. Otherwise you're literally getting Multiattack for free.


Super-Jump: Leaping X (innate, Dynamic Alternate)
Water-walking: Movement 2 (Water-Walking 2, innate, Dynamic Alternate)
Wall-Walking: Movement 2 (Wall-Crawling 2, innate, Dynamic alternate)
Lowered Mass: Shrinking 10 (Limited to body mass, Subtle 2, innate, Dynamic Alternate)

Unless you somehow absolutely can't spare ~10 more points you're only hurting yourself by not having each of these as a stand-alone effect.


Block: Deflect X (innate, Close, Dynamic alternate)
Parry: Deflect X (innate, Close, Reflect, Dynamic alternate)

I don't see the point of Block at all when Parry is strictly better.

dream
2015-06-19, 01:52 PM
Well first off, none of them should be Innate.
Right. "Magic" or "Mystic" would be the descriptor & thus, subject to Nullify.



"Single-target only" is most certainly a Quirk, not a Limitation. Otherwise you're literally getting Multiattack for free.
Maybe, depends on the GM.



Unless you somehow absolutely can't spare ~10 more points you're only hurting yourself by not having each of these as a stand-alone effect.
Well, spending more points than necessary is "hurting yourself" by definition. Those extra PP can be spent on Skills or Advantages.



I don't see the point of Block at all when Parry is strictly better.
Flavor; maybe the player wants to simply block an attack, where in another situation, the parry move has greater utility.

Sith_Happens
2015-06-19, 02:13 PM
Right. "Magic" or "Mystic" would be the descriptor & thus, subject to Nullify.

It's not even about whether there's anything paranormal involved:


An effect with this modifier is an innate part of your nature and unaffected by Nullify (see the Nullify effect). Gamemasters should exercise caution in allowing the application of Innate; the effect must be a truly inborn or essential trait, such as an elephant’s size or a ghost’s incorporeal nature. If the effect is not something normal to the character’s species or type, it probably isn’t innate.

Nullify (Martial Arts) is a completely legal power (though I have no idea how it would work descriptor-wise) that Innate would erroneously make those effects immune to.


Well, spending more points than necessary is "hurting yourself" by definition. Those extra PP can be spent on Skills or Advantages.

And how many of those skills or advantages are going to be more useful than the ability to jump from the surface of a pond to a thin tree branch, jump from the tree branch to another tree branch, jump from that tree branch to the flying villain, and punch the villain in the face all in the same turn? Because lumping your movement powers into the same array as your attack powers is going to make you noticeably worse at either the jumping or punching part of that.


Flavor; maybe the player wants to simply block an attack, where in another situation, the parry move has greater utility.

Reflecting/Redirecting an attack is optional.

dream
2015-06-19, 08:30 PM
It's not even about whether there's anything paranormal involved:



Nullify (Martial Arts) is a completely legal power (though I have no idea how it would work descriptor-wise) that Innate would erroneously make those effects immune to.
I forgot about the power source. If the powers were, instead, skill-based, then they would be innate & thus resist any nullification, outside of a good opposed roll.



And how many of those skills or advantages are going to be more useful than the ability to jump from the surface of a pond to a thin tree branch, jump from the tree branch to another tree branch, jump from that tree branch to the flying villain, and punch the villain in the face all in the same turn? Because lumping your movement powers into the same array as your attack powers is going to make you noticeably worse at either the jumping or punching part of that.
Jump, lowering mass, jump, jump, & then punch? Not even possible. You get a move action, a few free actions, & a standard. Dynamic arrays allow a player to use those designated powers simultaneously, but not to the extent of breaking total allowed actions.



Reflecting/Redirecting an attack is optional.
Those are modifiers for the effect & optional yes, but once a modifier has been applied to an effect, it can't be turned off & on at the player's whim. This is why I listed two options.

Beleriphon
2015-06-20, 08:42 AM
Those are modifiers for the effect & optional yes, but once a modifier has been applied to an effect, it can't be turned off & on at the player's whim. This is why I listed two options.

Those are the only two extras that I'd consider to not always work, or at least the way they work essentially mean they can be used as the player chooses. Its possible to redirect an attack at something other than the attacker, like say Alpha Centuari. As it is both of the extras are basically a way to build Jedi like character.

Metahuman1
2015-06-20, 10:12 PM
Ok, been up since 7:30am this morning after getting around 6 hours of sleep and it's now past 11pm were I'm living. Gonna make this short as I'm becoming incohearant, and I have to get back up tomorrow.



I checked Hero Lab earlier today, figured I'd have 5 minutes waiting on a math tutor to get there so I'd have a smig of time to tinker. And for some reason, Hero Lab doesn't list Dynamic as an option for anything, including Arrays. Does anyone know why that is? And what the math is for a Dynamic Array since those have been suggested for a couple of builds? Or how those work?

Grek
2015-06-20, 11:23 PM
In a normal array, you can use one alternate effect OR another alternate effect. With a dynamic array, you can use both, but only by dividing the points for the power between the two effects. So, for example if you have a rank 10 dynamic array power with a Damage effect and an Affliction effect, you can do Rank 10 Damage, Rank 10 Affliction, or a mix like Rank 6 Damage and Rank 4 Affliction. It costs one extra point to make an alternate effect dynamic.

Metahuman1
2015-06-21, 09:56 AM
Taking a moment from my insane math professors idea of learning which is to copy everything verbatim form the math book into my notes. Not just the important stuff, everything.



It's literally just a flat 1 point extra to make an array a dynamic array?

Grek
2015-06-21, 02:44 PM
One point per effect you want to make dynamic.

Sith_Happens
2015-06-21, 04:20 PM
I forgot about the power source. If the powers were, instead, skill-based, then they would be innate & thus resist any nullification, outside of a good opposed roll.

Even then it still wouldn't be innate. It says right there in the extra description (which I quoted), Innate is for things that you naturally just are. Like if you're writing stats for a giant robot, the "giant" part would be Permanent Innate Growth. Someone who's normally human-sized but can become really huge, on the other hand? Not innate no matter what the power source and description may be.


Jump, lowering mass, jump, jump, & then punch? Not even possible. You get a move action, a few free actions, & a standard. Dynamic arrays allow a player to use those designated powers simultaneously, but not to the extent of breaking total allowed actions.

Shrinking is a free action, you can perform a free action in the middle of another action, and there's no reason you can't jump multiple times in the same move action.


In a normal array, you can use one alternate effect OR another alternate effect. With a dynamic array, you can use both, but only by dividing the points for the power between the two effects. So, for example if you have a rank 10 dynamic array power with a Damage effect and an Affliction effect, you can do Rank 10 Damage, Rank 10 Affliction, or a mix like Rank 6 Damage and Rank 4 Affliction. It costs one extra point to make an alternate effect dynamic.

Note that this isn't the best example, in that setting the array to Damage 6/Affliction 4 doesn't link the effects to each other so the only way to use them both in the same turn is with extra effort. And even then you could just use the Damage 10, switch to Affliction 10 as a free action, and use the Affliction 10 with extra effort.

dream
2015-06-23, 05:19 PM
Innate can apply to anything that's more a natural ability than a power. Depends on what the player's aiming for & what the GM allows, ultimately.

You can't jump multiple times because most Movement effects are Free action to allow the PC a Move action. So, each use of the Leap effect is a Move action. If the character has Move-by Action, then they could jump, make a standard action, then jump again.

I use Dynamic arrays A lot because they rule! They allow use of any power tagged as dynamic as long as the total cost of the array isn't broken. Green Lantern does it all the time. The main/most-expensive effect will be the base effect and it costs 1 pp to make it Dynamic. Then, all the less -expensive effects in the array only cost 2 pp, as long as their individual cost doesn't exceed the base effect (the extra 1 pp to make the base effect Dynamic does not cost against the cost of the dynamic alternates).

Dynamic alternate effects can be used simultaneously as long as the total point cost to operate the effects does not exceed the cost of the base effect. I'll use a Superman-type for an example;

Enhanced Trait 15: +15 STR, sustained, dynamic (cost = 15 x2 + 1 pp for Dynamic. Total cost = 31 pp, but for the array, the cost is 30 pp)

Damage 10: ranged, dynamic alternate (cost = 30 pp, but as a dynamic alternate, cost is only 2 pp)
Flght 10: dynamic alternate (cost is 20, but again, only 2 pp because it's dynamic)

Now. Say Superdude wanted to use his STR to lift a bus, while flying; Bus = 25 tons (rank 10 STR) let's say & he's flying at 60 mph (rank 5 Flight).

It cost 20 pp for 10 ranks of STR & 10 pp for 5 ranks of Flight. Total cost = 30, so Superdude pulls off his bus rescue!

Some people don't like Dynamic arrays because of the math, but all you really need to know is you can't hit the top levels of powers that are used simultaneously. They have to share the points, but it makes your hero far more useful and far more like comic book heroes. Done right, you can easily have a hero who effectively uses 3-4 powers at the same time (no Extra Effort required) :smallwink:

Beleriphon
2015-06-24, 09:32 AM
Ok, been up since 7:30am this morning after getting around 6 hours of sleep and it's now past 11pm were I'm living. Gonna make this short as I'm becoming incohearant, and I have to get back up tomorrow.



I checked Hero Lab earlier today, figured I'd have 5 minutes waiting on a math tutor to get there so I'd have a smig of time to tinker. And for some reason, Hero Lab doesn't list Dynamic as an option for anything, including Arrays. Does anyone know why that is? And what the math is for a Dynamic Array since those have been suggested for a couple of builds? Or how those work?

Its a check box when you setup an array, or AE in the tools. If you use the Array function in the powers tab you have to individually make each power dynamic, because not all of them have to be.

Metahuman1
2015-06-24, 09:45 AM
Ohhhhhhh. And here I was looking around in the extras and flaws tab all this time!

Ok, Bit of good news, with a bit of luck, my current situation will relax somewhat after the end of this coming week, so, hopefully I will be able to sit down and properly write up back grounds and origin story's for the concepts at hand and actually tinker with hero lab and try to get sheets worked out. So, if so inclined, wish me luck/say a prayer/hope for me that this goes the way it needs too for that to happen.

I will keep this thread updated on when and if that works out, and if it does, I'll start doing intended origin story's and the like for assorted characters.

dream
2015-06-24, 12:55 PM
Ohhhhhhh. And here I was looking around in the extras and flaws tab all this time!

Ok, Bit of good news, with a bit of luck, my current situation will relax somewhat after the end of this coming week, so, hopefully I will be able to sit down and properly write up back grounds and origin story's for the concepts at hand and actually tinker with hero lab and try to get sheets worked out. So, if so inclined, wish me luck/say a prayer/hope for me that this goes the way it needs too for that to happen.

I will keep this thread updated on when and if that works out, and if it does, I'll start doing intended origin story's and the like for assorted characters.
Good luck, Metahuman1 :smallsmile:

TheThan
2015-06-24, 03:47 PM
I played a ghost character once. Here’s what I came up with for “ghost powers”


Flight: Flight 2 (Continuous, Subtle 2). [8 PP]

Invisibility: Concealment 2 (Vision). [4 PP] *Note: This would only apply to vision, not necessarily to all visual senses, which would require Concealment 4 for 8 PP.

Incorporeal: Insubstantial 4 (Continuous, Innate). [25 PP] aggravated damage: jade

Immortality: Immortality 5. [10 PP]

Ghost Immunities: Immunity 5 (Aging, Disease, Poison, Environmental Cold, Suffocation caused by passing through solid objects). [5 PP]


Shiver: affliction
Cost: [8PP)
First condition: impaired, second condition: disabled
Affects Corporeal, Limited Degree, Resisted by Will-, linked to incorporeal

Total: 62 PP

Metahuman1
2015-06-28, 04:33 PM
Alright, quick update. Situation is starting to relax just ever so slightly. But the real test won't be till close to the end of this week, so, won't know for sure till then. That said, I did get a smig of time to tinker with Hero Lab, working on the Phoenix build. And A question came to mind as I was working out the details of the healing power.


I know there's a skill mastery Advantage that let's you basically always take 10 on checks for the selected skill. I was wondering if there might be a way floating around to do a similar thing with the healing power, always take 10 on it? Cause, that would be really cool if so.



Another question, the create power, is that a power that's capped at Power level? Or should I be able to have more ranks then power level. (Hero Lab says since it's a PL 10 Character I can only have 10 Ranks in the create power. Trying to figure out if that's correct or not.)

JustIgnoreMe
2015-06-28, 05:04 PM
Another question, the create power, is that a power that's capped at Power level? Or should I be able to have more ranks then power level. (Hero Lab says since it's a PL 10 Character I can only have 10 Ranks in the create power. Trying to figure out if that's correct or not.)
My HeroLab doesn't do that. Is your Create power stock, or have you added something to it to make it an attack or something?

Metahuman1
2015-06-28, 05:41 PM
It did it when it was just stock creation. No extras, no flaws, no nothing.


Now, after it told me it was invalid to put more then 10 ranks in that power, I went ahead and added some extras. Innate, Moveable, Selective and Stationary. And it let me add those just fine.

dream
2015-06-28, 05:43 PM
It did it when it was just stock creation. No extras, no flaws, no nothing.


Now, after it told me it was invalid to put more then 10 ranks in that power, I went ahead and added some extras. Innate, Moveable, Selective and Stationary. And it let me add those just fine.
Create can be used to attack targets (objects can be dropped on or around them), so yes, it ends up being capped by PL.

Metahuman1
2015-06-28, 06:31 PM
Ok. So, another question, Create + Moveable should mean that I can grab onto stuff with my constructs and then move them ala move object of an equal rank, right?


And follow up, do I need to add any descriptors or the like to the power if I want it made out of fire but to not necessarily burn things?

dream
2015-06-28, 06:43 PM
Ok. So, another question, Create + Moveable should mean that I can grab onto stuff with my constructs and then move them ala move object of an equal rank, right?
Correct, but the Move Object effect need not be equal, but just enough to move the created object (Create deals more with volume than actual weight).


And follow up, do I need to add any descriptors or the like to the power if I want it made out of fire but to not necessarily burn things?
If the fire burns on contact, you'd need a linked Reaction-based Damage effect. If it's made of fire that doesn't burn things, but is vulnerable to water- or fire-based effects, you add the "Fire/Flame" descriptor (but not the linked damage). If it just looks like fire, but isn't, it's fluff.

Metahuman1
2015-06-28, 07:12 PM
The idea is more magic fire that doesn't burn stuff unless he really wants it too.


Ok, and just to double check my understanding, a power in a Dynamic Array can borrow power points from other powers in the same Dynamic Array, right? So, if I had a Rank 9 protection, a Rank 10 healing, And a Rank 10 flight then a Rank 10 Create, I could reroute points from Create and Healing for a few rounds to Flight and protection, then reroute those points later to healing. Correct?


Or can I only reroute points from the highest cost power in the Dynamic Array to other powers, and only up to the number of actual PP invested there?

dream
2015-06-28, 08:48 PM
The idea is more magic fire that doesn't burn stuff unless he really wants it too.


Ok, and just to double check my understanding, a power in a Dynamic Array can borrow power points from other powers in the same Dynamic Array, right? So, if I had a Rank 9 protection, a Rank 10 healing, And a Rank 10 flight then a Rank 10 Create, I could reroute points from Create and Healing for a few rounds to Flight and protection, then reroute those points later to healing. Correct?


Or can I only reroute points from the highest cost power in the Dynamic Array to other powers, and only up to the number of actual PP invested there?
Correct on the array. As long as the point total being used for multiple powers does not exceed the most-expensive power, you're fine.

JustIgnoreMe
2015-06-29, 05:29 PM
Create can be used to attack targets (objects can be dropped on or around them), so yes, it ends up being capped by PL.
That's not right. Attack + Effect is limited to twice PL, so Create isn't limited to PL. Powers that allow resistance but not an attack check are limited to PL. Powers that have no attack check and no resistance aren't capped at all, I guess.

dream
2015-06-30, 01:48 PM
That's not right. Attack + Effect is limited to twice PL, so Create isn't limited to PL. Powers that allow resistance but not an attack check are limited to PL. Powers that have no attack check and no resistance aren't capped at all, I guess.
Review the first few pages of the "Powers" section: for any effect that targets something, the target is allowed a resistance check. In M&M, any attack is limited to PL. If you drop a Created cage on the bad guy, the bad guy should have at least a small chance of avoiding it with a Dodge check. That's the importance of PL caps: caps keep attacks from being invincible. Check out this (http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=42326&hilit=create+capped) thread from the M&M Forums, also.

JustIgnoreMe
2015-06-30, 02:03 PM
Review the first few pages of the "Powers" section: for any effect that targets something, the target is allowed a resistance check. In M&M, any attack is limited to PL. If you drop a Created cage on the bad guy, the bad guy should have at least a small chance of avoiding it with a Dodge check. That's the importance of PL caps: caps keep attacks from being invincible. Check out this (http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=42326&hilit=create+capped) thread from the M&M Forums, also.
Sorry, perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but having (Attack) 12 in a PL 10 game is perfectly legitimate, as long as your skill with that attack is 8. There are several of the stock PL 10 templates with attacks with a power greater than 10. There's a corresponding trade-off with the skill used to attack.

-edit- The D20Hero SRD states
"You can trap a target inside a large enough hollow object (a cage or bubble, for example). This requires both an attack check against the target’s Dodge and a Dodge resistance check against the effect’s rank." So you need both an attack check and it allows a resistance check. That means the attack skill and power are capped at 2x PL.

I think your link may be referring to an older version of the rules, where Create didn't need an atack check.

dream
2015-06-30, 02:19 PM
Sorry, perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but having (Attack) 12 in a PL 10 game is perfectly legitimate, as long as your skill with that attack is 8. There are several of the stock PL 10 templates with attacks with a power greater than 10. There's a corresponding trade-off with the skill used to attack.
You're right :smallsmile: But, it's the consensus opinion on the M&M boards that attacks with Created objects are considered Area attacks & thus limited to PL (Create 10 for a PL 10 game). I should note that, yes, the effect CAN have a rank higher than the game, BUT, for the purposes of attacks, the effect is limited to PL.

JustIgnoreMe
2015-06-30, 02:41 PM
Given how poorly I usually roll, sometimes an Area attack would be better for me :) And engulfing multiple foes in multiple bubbles at once would be pretty cool.

Metahuman1
2015-06-30, 05:58 PM
Sooooo, is it capped at Pl, or not?

dream
2015-06-30, 09:20 PM
Sooooo, is it capped at Pl, or not?
When used for attacks, yes.

JustIgnoreMe
2015-07-01, 12:45 PM
Sooooo, is it capped at Pl, or not?
Ask your GM.

If he's playing Rules as Written, then no: the power plus the attack bonus is capped at 2xPL.

If he's playing the house-rule "Create Attacks are Area Attacks" (and so automatically hit without an attack roll) then you can only use up to PL of Create to attack (although you can have more ranks).

dream
2015-07-01, 01:06 PM
Ask your GM.

If he's playing Rules as Written, then no: the power plus the attack bonus is capped at 2xPL.

If he's playing the house-rule "Create Attacks are Area Attacks" (and so automatically hit without an attack roll) then you can only use up to PL of Create to attack (although you can have more ranks).
Read the Create effect: items can be dropped on targets & they are allowed a Dodge check. Also, I posted a link to the forums which explains how Create works. There were different explanations of the power from the M&M 3rd Hero's Handbook & the DCA book, but the two differing definitions are handled with the forum thread I posted. So, no confusion.

Rules as written, EVERYTHING that attacks is capped by PL (PL10 game: Area & Perception attacks are capped at PL10 & ranged/close attacks capped at PLx2).

From Create;

Simply dropping a created object on a target is treated
like an Area Effect attack based on the object’s size (see
the Area extra in the Powers chapter). The object inflicts
damage equal to its Toughness, and targets get a Dodge
check to evade the falling object. A successful check results
in no damage (rather than the usual half damage).

You could use the created object as a close or ranged weapon, but, again, that attack is capped. Actually, Create doesn't have the Damaging modifier & if it did, there would be no need for the Damage effect. In order to do damage with a Created object, you need an alternate Damage effect.

JustIgnoreMe
2015-07-01, 02:47 PM
Read the Create effect: items can be dropped on targets & they are allowed a Dodge check. Also, I posted a link to the forums which explains how Create works. There were different explanations of the power from the M&M 3rd Hero's Handbook & the DCA book, but the two differing definitions are handled with the forum thread I posted. So, no confusion.

Rules as written, EVERYTHING that attacks is capped by PL (PL10 game: Area & Perception attacks are capped at PL10 & ranged/close attacks capped at PLx2).

From Create;

Simply dropping a created object on a target is treated
like an Area Effect attack based on the object’s size (see
the Area extra in the Powers chapter). The object inflicts
damage equal to its Toughness, and targets get a Dodge
check to evade the falling object. A successful check results
in no damage (rather than the usual half damage).

You could use the created object as a close or ranged weapon, but, again, that attack is capped. Actually, Create doesn't have the Damaging modifier & if it did, there would be no need for the Damage effect. In order to do damage with a Created object, you need an alternate Damage effect.

I have read it, thanks. That applies only to dropping objects straight down on people, not to straight creating, trapping, making cover, or moving created objects into people.

The Create power is not limited to PL. Do you want me to go and get the page reference for the stock PL10 character with Create 12? -edit- Deluxe Hero's Handbook (2013 printing) page 69.

What people said on an internet forum in 2011 does not change the printed rulebook or the online SRD. That would need published errata.

Sith_Happens
2015-07-01, 04:04 PM
I have read it, thanks. That applies only to dropping objects straight down on people, not to straight creating, trapping, making cover, or moving created objects into people.

To be on the safe side I'd apply "Limited: Doesn't increase resistance DC" to the extra ranks. Which, as a bonus, means fewer points spent on the power.:smallbiggrin:

Metahuman1
2015-07-01, 05:59 PM
So, let me test my understanding here.

Use 1: Create used to make a Giant Anvil of Fire and drop on the bad guy like an extra violent Loony Toons Cartoon: Area attack and capped at Rank 10.

Use 2: Create used to make a super dense Fire Sword or a Single Target Fire Laser Sniper Rifle: Should require a Melee/ranged attack check respectively and be treated as an at rank effect, with the same trade offs for too hit and effect as a normal combat power like damage.

Use 3: Create a bunch of fire chains to hold down a metric tone of stuff/people/ext. As use 1.

Use 4: Create a relatively small box to hold a sigle opponent in. As use 2.

Use 5: Create a Bridge to allow people to get clear of an immediate threat to them but not actually engage the threat, or supports to hold up a falling building till it can be evacuated. Caps at x2 Powerlevel, none of the other uses apply to this.


That more or less sum it up?




Also, Dynamic Arry's. If I have multiple effects that have there own ranks, can I use them all at the ranks there already preset to default at?


Example: I have Protection, Flight and Blast. They are in a Dynamic Array. I bought all 3 of them as Rank 10 effects, and they are paid for up to rank 10. In a standard Array, I would be able to use 1 at a time, at Rank 10. In A Dynamic Array, Can I use all 3 at Once at Rank 10? (I know I can slide points back and 4th between them and use more then one, but I want to make sure I can use more then 1 at a time and at rank 10, which is what there set to default too.)

dream
2015-07-01, 07:38 PM
I have read it, thanks. That applies only to dropping objects straight down on people, not to straight creating, trapping, making cover, or moving created objects into people.

The Create power is not limited to PL. Do you want me to go and get the page reference for the stock PL10 character with Create 12? -edit- Deluxe Hero's Handbook (2013 printing) page 69.

What people said on an internet forum in 2011 does not change the printed rulebook or the online SRD. That would need published errata.
Area attacks aren't limited to PL? Of course they are. If it's a ranged or close attack, it's still capped (PL x2). You can't avoid PL limitations. Keep in mind there is always ERRATA (mistakes) that occur in the books. The forums are where those mistakes are addressed.


So, let me test my understanding here.

Use 1: Create used to make a Giant Anvil of Fire and drop on the bad guy like an extra violent Loony Toons Cartoon: Area attack and capped at Rank 10.

Use 2: Create used to make a super dense Fire Sword or a Single Target Fire Laser Sniper Rifle: Should require a Melee/ranged attack check respectively and be treated as an at rank effect, with the same trade offs for too hit and effect as a normal combat power like damage.

Use 3: Create a bunch of fire chains to hold down a metric tone of stuff/people/ext. As use 1.

Use 4: Create a relatively small box to hold a sigle opponent in. As use 2.

Use 5: Create a Bridge to allow people to get clear of an immediate threat to them but not actually engage the threat, or supports to hold up a falling building till it can be evacuated. Caps at x2 Powerlevel, none of the other uses apply to this.


That more or less sum it up?




Also, Dynamic Arry's. If I have multiple effects that have there own ranks, can I use them all at the ranks there already preset to default at?


Example: I have Protection, Flight and Blast. They are in a Dynamic Array. I bought all 3 of them as Rank 10 effects, and they are paid for up to rank 10. In a standard Array, I would be able to use 1 at a time, at Rank 10. In A Dynamic Array, Can I use all 3 at Once at Rank 10? (I know I can slide points back and 4th between them and use more then one, but I want to make sure I can use more then 1 at a time and at rank 10, which is what there set to default too.)
Correct on Create. It varies depending on usage, but PL limits always apply for the form of attack.

On the array, if the most expensive/base effect is say 20pp; you spread that 20pp among the powers. Normally, most people don't include Protection effects in arrays, since they would lose defensive ability when other powers come into play.

Metahuman1
2015-07-01, 07:53 PM
Ok, so now that I have the idea for create down, that's a step in the right direction.


As for the Array, so, if I understand this correctly, that means that the actual rank of any power in a Dynamic Array OTHER then the big one is meaningless past rank 1, Since you need rank 1 to get it listed, but all other effects and ranks that would normally be governed by the rank of the power I'm using will instead be governed by "How many PP did you sink into the most expensive power on the array and How many PP of that number are you sinking into this other power on the array right this minute?" and not one other single thing matters. Is this correct, or have I missed/overlooked failed to grasp something important/relevant/pertinent?

Grek
2015-07-01, 10:50 PM
With an Array (dynamic or otherwise), you buy one "main power" and then however many alternate effects you want for that main power. None of the alternate effects can be build with more points than the main power was build with.

If you have a Dynamic Array, the you can activate multiple powers at once, but only by reducing the ranks for each power such that the total point cost of all the powers currently active is less than or equal to the number of points the main power was built with at full strength. You can't use a Dynamic Array to increase the rank of a power, or to bypass PL restrictions.

dream
2015-07-01, 10:51 PM
Ok, so now that I have the idea for create down, that's a step in the right direction.


As for the Array, so, if I understand this correctly, that means that the actual rank of any power in a Dynamic Array OTHER then the big one is meaningless past rank 1, Since you need rank 1 to get it listed, but all other effects and ranks that would normally be governed by the rank of the power I'm using will instead be governed by "How many PP did you sink into the most expensive power on the array and How many PP of that number are you sinking into this other power on the array right this minute?" and not one other single thing matters. Is this correct, or have I missed/overlooked failed to grasp something important/relevant/pertinent?
In terms of paying for the ranks, yes, they matter less (since dynamic alternate effects only cost 2 pp). But, if the base effect was Transform, with Ranged Damage & Flight as alternates, the rank of the other effects is important, especially when using those powers by themselves. If the PC wants to unleash a maximum rank Ranged Damage attack, they can by shifting all the points to that power.

When you think of arrays as different expressions of a single power, it all makes sense. Hope this is helping. Don't forget to check out the actual books or the SRD.

Sith_Happens
2015-07-01, 11:28 PM
Ok, so now that I have the idea for create down, that's a step in the right direction.


As for the Array, so, if I understand this correctly, that means that the actual rank of any power in a Dynamic Array OTHER then the big one is meaningless past rank 1, Since you need rank 1 to get it listed, but all other effects and ranks that would normally be governed by the rank of the power I'm using will instead be governed by "How many PP did you sink into the most expensive power on the array and How many PP of that number are you sinking into this other power on the array right this minute?" and not one other single thing matters. Is this correct, or have I missed/overlooked failed to grasp something important/relevant/pertinent?

Suppose you have Enhanced Strength X [Limited to lifting] as the "main" effect and Speed as a dynamic alternate of it (which is one of the more iconic uses for dynamic arrays). Since those two effects cost the same number of points/rank, it ends up being that at any given time your Enhanced Strength rank and your Speed rank must total to X. The array as a whole, meanwhile, will cost X+3 points.

dream
2015-07-02, 01:16 PM
Suppose you have Enhanced Strength X [Limited to lifting] as the "main" effect and Speed as a dynamic alternate of it (which is one of the more iconic uses for dynamic arrays). Since those two effects cost the same number of points/rank, it ends up being that at any given time your Enhanced Strength rank and your Speed rank must total to X. The array as a whole, meanwhile, will cost X+3 points.
The array cost = most expensive effect cost +1 (for making the main effect Dynamic) + 2 per additional Dynamic alternate effect and/or +1 per additional (normal) alternate

Metahuman1
2015-07-02, 06:06 PM
Huh, darn, that actually makes the Dynamic Array WAY less useful then I though cause you basically have to dump darn near everything into that lead power just to have enough to spread around to compete anywhere close to at power level then with the other items, which means there's not enough to pay for a lot of other items.

dream
2015-07-03, 08:50 AM
Huh, darn, that actually makes the Dynamic Array WAY less useful then I though cause you basically have to dump darn near everything into that lead power just to have enough to spread around to compete anywhere close to at power level then with the other items, which means there's not enough to pay for a lot of other items.
I forget which hero we're discussing. If you like, tell me what powers they have & I can sketch a quick build to look it over.

Metahuman1
2015-07-03, 11:21 AM
I was actually trying to Iron Out the Phoenix.

And I'm running into the exact problem I though I might. By the time I've bough my defenses up to par, my attack checks up to par, and the fluffy parts that Most GM's greatly prefer to see, I'm left scrambling trying to get Healing, immunity's that make sense (Fire, environmental heat and cold, suffocating, Cold Attacks at half effect.), and my various fire effects up and running at PL, and it's proving entirely cost prohibitive for me.

Sith_Happens
2015-07-03, 03:08 PM
Huh, darn, that actually makes the Dynamic Array WAY less useful then I though cause you basically have to dump darn near everything into that lead power just to have enough to spread around to compete anywhere close to at power level then with the other items, which means there's not enough to pay for a lot of other items.

Which is exactly what I was trying and failing to explain to Dream earlier. Not only are dynamic arrays not supposed to just be a free license to have every last one of your powers after the first one cost two points each, they straight up don't work that way in the first place. The Alternate Effect extra, Dynamic or not, has a number of distinct drawbacks you should be prepared to cope with any time you use it.

Metahuman1
2015-07-03, 05:50 PM
Ambrosios Chariton - PL 10

Strength -1, Stamina 1, Agility 1, Dexterity 0, Fighting 1, Intellect 2, Awareness 2, Presence 3

Advantages
Attractive 2, Benefit, Security Clearance: Choose Clearance, Benefit, Status: Lesser Prince. , Benefit, Wealth 5 (billionare), Improved Critical 4: ????, Improved Initiative 2, Interpose, Skill Mastery: Expertise: Culinary Arts. , Skill Mastery: Expertise: Royal Education., Skill Mastery: Insight, Skill Mastery: Persuasion

Skills
Deception 6 (+9), Expertise: Culinary Arts. 6 (+8), Expertise: Royal Education. 6 (+8), Insight 6 (+8), Intimidation 6 (+9), Investigation 8 (+10), Perception 5 (+7), Persuasion 10 (+13), Ranged Combat: ???? 10 (+10), Technology 1 (+3), Treatment 1 (+3), Vehicles 1 (+1)

Powers
Magical resiliance.
Enhanced Trait: Enhanced Trait 35 (Linked; Traits: Will +8 (+10), Parry +9 (+10), Fortitude +9 (+10), Dodge +9 (+10))
Protection: Protection 9 (Linked; +9 Toughness)

Offense
Initiative +9
Grab, +1 (DC Spec 9)
Throw, +0 (DC 14)
Unarmed, +1 (DC 14)

Complications
- Custom Complication -: When Immortality is activated, I do not actually return 2 weeks later. Rather, I am reborn immediatly form the ashes I left behind. However, as my body rematures and my mind recalibrates from the Trama of the death, I am helpless for 2 weeks, and if in that time I am killed again, the process restarts, thus letting it in turn be an easy way to keep me perminantly sidelined by an oppoenent with the presence of mind to do so.
Enemy
Phobia
Responsibility

Languages
Native Language

Defense
Dodge 10/1, Parry 10/1, Fortitude 10/1, Toughness 10, Will 10/2

Power Points
Abilities 18 + Powers 44 + Advantages 20 + Skills 33 (66 ranks) + Defenses 0 = 115


Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Mutants & Masterminds, Third Edition is ©2010-2015 Green Ronin Publishing, LLC. All rights reserved.

Ok, so, this is what I have so far for the Phoenix build.

It's mainly the more flavorful/rounded out parts. (Couple of hits for Improved Initiative so he can act not last, Improved Critical because I presently consider that to basically be an always ability. Various other skills and advantages that play to personality and make him a pretty good talker with an odd quirk here or there and give him lot's and a nice slate of rounded at Power Level defenses with an at Power Level ability to hit a target.)

I'm trying to figure out how to work the rest in, since I should have/kinda need immunity's (Aging, Cold and heat and suffocation environmental, and Fire attacks. Maybe a partial one to cold attacks for half effect or something.) At least 1 rank in Immortality, flight, Some useful in combat fire powers like create and blasts and affiliations, and healing. And that's not even getting into things like "Need a freaking drop of Morph to pass for human" and "Should really have something about Phoenix's song or strength limited to lifting on there."

dream
2015-07-03, 06:33 PM
Ambrosios Chariton - PL 10

Strength -1, Stamina 1, Agility 1, Dexterity 0, Fighting 1, Intellect 2, Awareness 2, Presence 3

Advantages
Attractive 2, Benefit, Security Clearance: Choose Clearance, Benefit, Status: Lesser Prince. , Benefit, Wealth 5 (billionare), Improved Critical 4: ????, Improved Initiative 2, Interpose, Skill Mastery: Expertise: Culinary Arts. , Skill Mastery: Expertise: Royal Education., Skill Mastery: Insight, Skill Mastery: Persuasion

Skills
Deception 6 (+9), Expertise: Culinary Arts. 6 (+8), Expertise: Royal Education. 6 (+8), Insight 6 (+8), Intimidation 6 (+9), Investigation 8 (+10), Perception 5 (+7), Persuasion 10 (+13), Ranged Combat: ???? 10 (+10), Technology 1 (+3), Treatment 1 (+3), Vehicles 1 (+1)

Powers
Magical resiliance.
Enhanced Trait: Enhanced Trait 35 (Linked; Traits: Will +8 (+10), Parry +9 (+10), Fortitude +9 (+10), Dodge +9 (+10))
Protection: Protection 9 (Linked; +9 Toughness)

Offense
Initiative +9
Grab, +1 (DC Spec 9)
Throw, +0 (DC 14)
Unarmed, +1 (DC 14)

Complications
- Custom Complication -: When Immortality is activated, I do not actually return 2 weeks later. Rather, I am reborn immediatly form the ashes I left behind. However, as my body rematures and my mind recalibrates from the Trama of the death, I am helpless for 2 weeks, and if in that time I am killed again, the process restarts, thus letting it in turn be an easy way to keep me perminantly sidelined by an oppoenent with the presence of mind to do so.
Enemy
Phobia
Responsibility

Languages
Native Language

Defense
Dodge 10/1, Parry 10/1, Fortitude 10/1, Toughness 10, Will 10/2

Power Points
Abilities 18 + Powers 44 + Advantages 20 + Skills 33 (66 ranks) + Defenses 0 = 115


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Ok, so, this is what I have so far for the Phoenix build.

It's mainly the more flavorful/rounded out parts. (Couple of hits for Improved Initiative so he can act not last, Improved Critical because I presently consider that to basically be an always ability. Various other skills and advantages that play to personality and make him a pretty good talker with an odd quirk here or there and give him lot's and a nice slate of rounded at Power Level defenses with an at Power Level ability to hit a target.)

I'm trying to figure out how to work the rest in, since I should have/kinda need immunity's (Aging, Cold and heat and suffocation environmental, and Fire attacks. Maybe a partial one to cold attacks for half effect or something.) At least 1 rank in Immortality, flight, Some useful in combat fire powers like create and blasts and affiliations, and healing. And that's not even getting into things like "Need a freaking drop of Morph to pass for human" and "Should really have something about Phoenix's song or strength limited to lifting on there."
Hm. Well, to begin with, I hope Sith_Happens helps out here. I'll offer my suggestions;

You have 7 pp tied-up in Abilities that aren't doing anything impactful for you (Fighting, Agility, Awareness, & Presence). You can save pp by dropping those points & shifting the extra over to maintain your skill levels (skills cost 1/4 what Abilities do)
Skill Mastery: I've found this is best-used when you want to perform routine checks with a skill during combat. Outside of combat, you can "Take 10" nearly anytime (as long as there's no real pressure). Unless you NEED those skills in combat (cooking?), I'd use the 4 pp elsewhere.

The powers;

Immunity 13; cold, (elemental suffocation?), aging, & fire effects (heat's included here - check with your GM though)
Immortality: I see players taking this all the time. This is not Pathfinder/D&D :smalltongue: Unless your game is very lethal, the chances of anyone dying, especially a superhero, are super-slim. Plus, you can spend a Hero Point to avoid certain death. Skip that one and Regeneration (another player-favorite that makes no sense, since you recover from most damage after about 5-10 minutes of rest)
Ranged Damage 10: dynamic, 21 pp (add cool fire Descriptor)
Healing 10; dynamic alt, 2 pp
Flight 10; dynamic alt, 2 pp
Create 10; dynamic alt, 2 pp
Feature: (Free action) Quick Change to human form; alternate, 1 pp
Enhanced Strength 10; dynamic alt, 2 pp
Phoenix's Song; you got me here :smallconfused:

43 pp for all that. When you count the saved points from Abilities & Advantages, you squeak in the door with what you want. I can do the complete build if you want, just tell me exactly what you want. But, I think you can handle it. I'd see what Sith_Happens or others have to say as well.

Metahuman1
2015-07-03, 07:01 PM
Nixing a couple of the skill mastery's is a though, though the idea of being "stressed" has been known to vary a bit. and I was thinking in terms of skills that were gonna be top priority for the character. I want him to be cultured to the core. (Part of that is a sort of joke I'm engineering for the GM. He's got one person in the game running a Norse mythology themed magic princess who's exceedingly rough and tumble but good Nature'd. I wanted good natured but cultured, suave and refined to a comparable level to create an equal and opposites effect. I grant I might end up with that player dropping being my opening into the game, Buuuuuut, I've got a hunch that players decidedly among the more likely one's to stick it out. And I can always ax the joke at the last minute for a few spare points and call it touch up work.)

Thus the idea that no matter what, he can take 10 on those skills which cover more refined matters.


As for Immortality, Well, there for 3 reasons. 1. It is a major, major major facet of the mythology. 2. I build a complication for it. 3. It actually might get fairly lethal once the first arc or two are concluded, and since I don't KNOW when player attrition is gonna kick in, so the game might have already gotten lethal when that happens.




Now, Stats. No, trust me, I would LOVE to drop every stat that's doing nothing for me mechanically to 0 or even -1 (and since I only care about lifting strength since all my actual combat ability is gonna be ranged in all likely hood on this character.). but my understanding is that this is frowned upon by most GM's as a cheesy way of trying to get more points.

I will however hold back and see what others say about the 2 builds before proceeding since, as I said, yeah, need the help.