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Tyger
2007-04-26, 07:26 AM
Is there any spell or magic item that would allow a character to see through smoke without taking the concealment penalties?

One of my players is planning a nightmare riding blackguard, and the nightmare's cloud of smoke ability is going to really hamper him in mounted combat if we can't work a way around it.

Thanks in advance!

the_tick_rules
2007-04-26, 07:41 AM
i dunno. a wind spell could blow away the smoke.

Tyger
2007-04-26, 08:10 AM
A wind spell blowing away the smoke defeats the purpose of the Nightmare using its smoke ability against the enemy. Nope, need something that can see through it.

I suppose I can just houserule it, after all, the Nightmare can see through its own smoke, so its possible to do obviously.

Ranis
2007-04-26, 08:24 AM
....True Seeing?

Sir Giacomo
2007-04-26, 08:25 AM
Hmmm Tyger, good question...

...actually so far there is almost NOTHING in the rules (at least in core), magic or mundane, which allows you to see through smoke (or fog/obscuring mist, for that matter). Even True Seeing or Scrying does not help.
Rare exceptions:
- Ring of X-ray vision (but only up to 20ft, and costs you 1 CON point per minute use for the first 10 minutes during a day)
- Blindfight feat (only at close range). Scent does not help as smoke blocks it.

Now you could still attack through the concealment with a 50% miss chance, but for this you have to locate the target with listen to pinpoint its 5ft square in combat terms, so to speak. You may suffer some penalties for the listen check due to the noise of the nightmare.

- Giacomo

EDIT: just noticed that the nightmare can see through its own smoke. So maybe there is some spell that lets you used its eyes? Or confers its seeing ability on you? Don't know which one, though, at the moment.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-04-26, 08:29 AM
The best tactic is to only use the Smoke after you have made the attack.

If there is enough room you could even charge, use Smoke and then move away for another opportunity to charge.

Tyger
2007-04-26, 08:30 AM
Yeah, looks like I am going to have to develop something for this character specifically. Otherwise the PrC would be seriously hampered in its ability.


The best tactic is to only use the Smoke after you have made the attack.

If there is enough room you could even charge, use Smoke and then move away for another opportunity to charge.

Yeah, for the most part this character will be using flying charges with his enchanted lance... but every once in a while, he just might want to land and attack. Don't want the whole class (based on the Griffon Riders from Unapproachable East) to be gimped by one of their mount's abilities.

Okay, what would you guys consider a reasonable price for a magic helm with eyeslots that are enchanted to allow the wearer to see through the smoke and brimstone steam of his (and only his) mount's smoke? It would have zero effect on other concealments, smokes, fogs, etc.

1,000 GP? 20,000 GP? :)

lord_khaine
2007-04-26, 08:50 AM
does he really need something to see though the smoke?
it does not hinder the vision of a creature that stands besides the nightmare, so the blackguard would be able to attack it without problems.

if he takes blindfighting, he could even attack targets 5 feet away, that have concealment, with allmost no chance of missing.
and even if a target is 10 or more feet away, the rules just say the nightmare have total concealment, not that its invisibel.

by that logic any opponent 10 or more feet away from the blackguard would also have total concealment against him, but that just means he has to move over to them before he attack.

actualy as i see it this would only be a problem if he was trying to do some mounted archery, but i understand he wants to use a lance?

Tyger
2007-04-26, 08:55 AM
does he really need something to see though the smoke?
it does not hinder the vision of a creature that stands besides the nightmare, so the blackguard would be able to attack it without problems.

if he takes blindfighting, he could even attack targets 5 feet away, that have concealment, with allmost no chance of missing.
and even if a target is 10 or more feet away, the rules just say the nightmare have total concealment, not that its invisibel.

by that logic any opponent 10 or more feet away from the blackguard would also have total concealment against him, but that just means he has to move over to them before he attack.

actualy as i see it this would only be a problem if he was trying to do some mounted archery, but i understand he wants to use a lance?

Yeah, you've encapsulated it fairly well there, except that the lance is a reach weapon. So he wants to be able to attack at 10 feet away, where his enemies will have concealment from him. Which, as I noted, is counter productive to say the least. Granted, he'll be concealed from them too, but he's worried about the damage dealing, not the damage taking.

Whisper
2007-04-26, 10:42 AM
I think the easiest solution is to just grant the ability to see through the smoke to the rider while on the Nightmare.

Tyger
2007-04-26, 11:13 AM
Yeah, that's actually what I am leaning towards... its not that huge an advantage, and it would be specific to the mount so...

Jacob Orlove
2007-04-26, 11:13 AM
The Blindfold of True Darkness, which is now 3.5 compatible due to being reprinted in the Magic Item Compendium, grants 60' Blindsight at the cost of being unable to see otherwise. Fortunately, Rary's Telepathic Bond can be made permanent, so your other party members can keep you up to date on what's happening further out.