How strong is DR 20/- at level 20?

[Asteron]

I've got a homebrew Dragonborn race (think 4e dragonborn, where they are an actually species, rather than the 3.5 template) and each individual can have one or more Draconic Heritages. Each heritage mimics a Dragon's racial features and one of them gives the DR/magic of a true dragon. It scales DR 5 for every 5 levels. For a feat they can change it from DR/magic, which is pretty much useless after 3rd level, to DR/-.

I'm wondering if it's too strong an option or not to have DR/20/- at level 20. If so, should I change the feat to be DR/adamantine?

Edit: I forgot to tag the thread as being for Pathfinder.

Edit#2: I forgot that I changed Adamantine armor to grant DR/- at 5/10/15 for L/M/H armor. I just felt that the DR granted by the rules didn't justify the price tag of the material.

[Necroticplague]

Nigh useless. The best way to do damage (especially at that level) is a small handful of massive attacks, while DR is best against a massive amount of small attacks. Anything that's actually a threat will blow past it, anything where that reduces most of their damage wasn't much of a htreat in the first place.

[icefractal]

I wouldn't call it useless. It's not as impressive as it initially looks, but it's still a pretty good ability. Looking at the upper-end monsters, it would be useful against the ones that make multiple attacks - Dragons, Pit Fiend, etc. Not like it would prevent 100% of damage, but we're looking at a significant reduction.

[Ruslan]

Definitely not useless.

A Solar (CR 23) deals 3d6+18 (average 29) with his sword. DR 20/- negates two thirds of it.
A Titan (CR 21) deals 4d6+27 (average 41) with his hammer. DR 20/- negates almost half of it.
A Tarrasque (CR 20) deals 4d8+17 (average 35) with his byte. DR 20/- negates more than half of it.

[Inevitability]

It depends. If your level 20 campaigns resolve around fighting titanic monsters, eldritch abominations, or other Stuff That Be Freaky, it isn't too useful. If it is more about great wars engulfing the world, armies of undead arising to wipe out the living, or endless streams of evil outsiders, it becomes a lot better.

Your average half-orc warrior with 15 strength and a longsword won't be able to harm you, even with a maximum damage crit. You could take on a thousand without taking any damage.

[Asteron]

That's what I was figuring, but I was balked at 1st glance.

I also thought that it would hardly protect them from the reality-warping spells that will get thrown around at that level.

I think that it is strongest around level 10 when they have DR 10/-. It's before a lot of the nastiest spells come online and will mitigate a high percentage of damage that is dealt at that level.

[lsfreak]

Depends entirely on how the group plays. Fighting mostly monsters without changing them, or low-op NPCs? Significantly powerful. Mid-range optimization it's probably worth the feat. But if you've got monsters being rebuilt and NPCs that are built to high op standard, DR20/- is nothing.

[Grod_The_Giant]

A Solar (CR 23) deals 3d6+18 (average 29) with his sword. DR 20/- negates two thirds of it.
A Titan (CR 21) deals 4d6+27 (average 41) with his hammer. DR 20/- negates almost half of it.
A Tarrasque (CR 20) deals 4d8+17 (average 35) with his byte. DR 20/- negates more than half of it.
Two words: Power Attack.

Like most things, it's very dependent on the optimization level of your campaign and your monsters. I'm inclined to say that it wouldn't be an issue, though.

[Necroticplague]

That's what I was figuring, but I was balked at 1st glance.

I also thought that it would hardly protect them from the reality-warping spells that will get thrown around at that level
Another excellent reason as to why it's not that big a deal. At high levels, spells do the heaviest lifting, and spells care not one whit for your DR.

[Melcar]

A level 20 Half-ork fighter:

+13 str, +6 damage from weapon specialization, greater weapon specialization, weapon mastery, +5 for weapon enchantment

Greataxe: 1d12+30

You could add crit to the average calculation of damage, and that heavy/massive enchant that gives another +5 damage, but I would say, that DR 20/- is pretty much

[Spore]

Another excellent reason as to why it's not that big a deal. At high levels, spells do the heaviest lifting, and spells care not one whit for your DR.

No one defensive feature is or should be the be-all and end-all. This DR let's you ignore certain things enemies throw at you. You won't budge for some low-level summons (or minions) what are often a part of high level fights because it's just not realistic having a Pit Fiend march in and do ALL the combat. You can ignore much "environmental" damage (rocks fall, everyone's dead, the dragon lives) and combined with a good array of elemental defenses it is a first line of defense, no questions asked.

You get crushed by spells, but pretty much anything high level does. So it's not an argument to entirely stop investing in non-magical defenses.

[MesiDoomstalker]

The real question should be, what is a useable amount of DR at each level? A linear scaling will never suffice, it will either be minimal at high level (1 level = 1 DR), or OP at low levels (starting with some base amount, then increasing as you level). So the real question is, what rate of scaling is sufficient to be worth a feat? I personally say 1:1.5, basically increasing by 2 every even level and 1 every odd level (this results in DR 30/- by level 20, which is where I'd put a good DR rating for level 20).

[Extra Anchovies]

The real question should be, what is a useable amount of DR at each level? A linear scaling will never suffice, it will either be minimal at high level (1 level = 1 DR), or OP at low levels (starting with some base amount, then increasing as you level). So the real question is, what rate of scaling is sufficient to be worth a feat? I personally say 1:1.5, basically increasing by 2 every even level and 1 every odd level (this results in DR 30/- by level 20, which is where I'd put a good DR rating for level 20).

DR 3 is still a lot at level 2, and DR 6 is just as strong at level 4. If the goal is DR 30, I'd recommend +1 per level from levels 1-10 and +2 per level from levels 11-20.

[Necroticplague]

No one defensive feature is or should be the be-all and end-all. This DR let's you ignore certain things enemies throw at you. You won't budge for some low-level summons (or minions) what are often a part of high level fights because it's just not realistic having a Pit Fiend march in and do ALL the combat. AC can do the same thing, and also helps against the big dude.


You can ignore much "environmental" damage (rocks fall, everyone's dead, the dragon lives) and combined with a good array of elemental defenses it is a first line of defense, no questions asked.Actually, DR only applies against attacks, so it doesn't do squat against environmental effects.

[Spore]

Actually, DR only applies against attacks, so it doesn't do squat against environmental effects.

That is weird. "No blade can pierce its hardened scales." "Ow, a branch fell on my back!"

[MesiDoomstalker]

DR 3 is still a lot at level 2, and DR 6 is just as strong at level 4. If the goal is DR 30, I'd recommend +1 per level from levels 1-10 and +2 per level from levels 11-20.

Not a bad idea. Though, DR 6 at level 4 doesn't seem terribly amazing (I'll concede DR 3 at level 2). Probably still too high though, your right.

[marphod]

That is weird. "No blade can pierce its hardened scales." "Ow, a branch fell on my back!"

At least in 3.5, the SRD doesn't directly address environmental sources:


A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. ... The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities.

I've frequently seen it extended to 'external sources of physical damage'. So, something falling on you doesn't hurt, but if you fall into a pit or cut yourself, you take the full damage. Certainly, that's a house rule/interpretation.

[marphod]

Not a bad idea. Though, DR 6 at level 4 doesn't seem terribly amazing (I'll concede DR 3 at level 2). Probably still too high though, your right.

Level 4 2-handed fighter: +1 greatsword with 20 strength, +2 Str item and Power Attack. +9 to hit, 2d6+15 (22 ave). DR 6 takes about a quarter of the damage.
Level 4 Two-weapon rogue: +1 shortswords, Finesse, 20 Dex, +2 item: 2 attacks at +8 to hit, 3d6 (10.5 ave). DR 6 takes over half the damage.

Its pretty good. Roughly lets you shrug off a third of the weapon damage coming your way. And spells aren't that scary, yet.

[Eldaran]

The real question should be, what is a useable amount of DR at each level? A linear scaling will never suffice, it will either be minimal at high level (1 level = 1 DR), or OP at low levels (starting with some base amount, then increasing as you level). So the real question is, what rate of scaling is sufficient to be worth a feat? I personally say 1:1.5, basically increasing by 2 every even level and 1 every odd level (this results in DR 30/- by level 20, which is where I'd put a good DR rating for level 20).

A better method would be just percentage damage reduction. 20% reduction is just as good at level 1 as it is at level 20.

[MesiDoomstalker]

A better method would be just percentage damage reduction. 20% reduction is just as good at level 1 as it is at level 20.

Few problems with this; mainly it massively slow downs combat (even with a calculator, your adding a new step every time you take damage). Also at low damage thresholds, you get stupid rounding errors. Till you hit 5 damage mark (easy to miss at low level combat), you get nothing.

[Sacrieur]

Used in combination with say, the FB frenzy ability, it's fantastic.

Unless you have some purpose for it beyond reducing damage, I don't think it's going to be worth its weight. Against many smaller enemies you'll be a badass, but against single enemies it's going to be less effective. Anything with appropriately powered magic will tear through your DR like it was paper.

[Andreaz]

DR 20 is reasonably good. People underestimate it just because serious attacks overwhelm it significantly, but even then it's still useful. It's not your primary line of defense, and it shouldn't be, but it helps.

So, really, the right question is not whether it's strong, but whether it's worth it. If you had to sacrifice a high level class feature for it, it's probably not worth it. If it's coming from a single feat (or racial feature, yay humans!), it's probably worth it.

As said before, against easy enemies it'll be very helpful. Someone releases the krakken on you? You'll take like 15 damage per hit, tops. Against enemies within the norm of most worlds (people rarely get past level 6 or 7, mooks usually cap at 4 or 5 in npc classes) you'll be immortal. Against titans, of course, it's not as helpful, but hey, when that hekatonkheires hits 3 of his 4 attacks of 6d6+37, or hits you with a greater vital for 24d6+37, you'll still be shaving off 17% to 34% of the incoming damage. I'd say that's worth a feat.

[Chronos]

Quoth MesiDoomstalker:

The real question should be, what is a useable amount of DR at each level? A linear scaling will never suffice, it will either be minimal at high level (1 level = 1 DR), or OP at low levels (starting with some base amount, then increasing as you level). So the real question is, what rate of scaling is sufficient to be worth a feat? I personally say 1:1.5, basically increasing by 2 every even level and 1 every odd level (this results in DR 30/- by level 20, which is where I'd put a good DR rating for level 20).
You just said that a linear scaling would never suffice, and then proposed a linear scaling.:smallconfused:

[Zanos]

If you get hit fives times, it's 100 damage you didn't take. That's quite a lot. A defense doesn't have to make you immune to an attack method to be useful, and if people are power attacking they should be missing your AC more often.

[MesiDoomstalker]

You just said that a linear scaling would never suffice, and then proposed a linear scaling.:smallconfused:

And was quickly pointed out to be true by the next poster pointing out levels 2 and 4 as being problematic. It won't ever suffice, but its the general game design trend. When a (numeric) ability scales, it is always linear.

[Segev]

[It's] the general game design trend. When a (numeric) ability scales, it is always linear.

Sometimes geometric, but anything more complicated tends to be tabularized and obfuscated as too complicated.

Notably, wizards do scale at least polynomially, but they don't do it by any distinct number; it's in the power of their spells and the jumps between spell levels.

This could be done with feats and even with special abilities of skills, if the designers wished. That would be a good step, though not sufficient by itself.

[Necroticplague]

Oh hey, missed the PF tag. That makes this even less useful, considering that PF gives several ways to make DR not that useful through feats like Pummeling Style (and its big brother, Pummeling Charge), Clustered Shot, and Vital Strike.

[Shackel]

I want to say that, compared to the other PF classes, it's pretty heavy. While of course there are spells and everything else that makes a martial's life Hell, those would probably cut through you, DR or not. In that case, we have to look at things that a martial could normally face, and as some of those in here already pointed out, it negates a *heavy* amount of damage. A CR20 creature on average probably deals, what, 120 damage? 90?(According to the PF Monster Creation). Let's say you have ~180HP; d10 class, Con mod of +3, going for average, here. That's 2 hits on average, which gives you an effective boost of 40HP.

Lesser creatures are going to have an even harder time piercing through, with a CR19 creature, with a low attack of 82 damage, giving you sixty effective HP. And those numbers just keep going up for how many hits it takes. Going up against something like a Solar gives you effective HP probably equal to double, even triple your normal HP.

And that's just a race and (apparently?) a feat. Not even a class feature. Compared to everyone else, it's... pretty strong. Strong enough to search for reasons not to have that race for any martial, with "that class's DR won't matter" being not much against it.

[Asteron]

And that's just a race and (apparently?) a feat. Not even a class feature. Compared to everyone else, it's... pretty strong. Strong enough to search for reasons not to have that race for any martial, with "that class's DR won't matter" being not much against it.

That's a good point, but not an issue in this game. I modified Adamantine armor to give DR 5/10/15 for light/medium/heavy armor. So any martial character can get a significant amount of DR/- if they want to spend the money.

I had forgotten about that until I went through my houserules for a new player. I apologize. It should have been in the OP.

[Shackel]

That's a good point, but not an issue in this game. I modified Adamantine armor to give DR 5/10/15 for light/medium/heavy armor. So any martial character can get a significant amount of DR/- if they want to spend the money.

I had forgotten about that until I went through my houserules for a new player. I apologize. It should have been in the OP.

Oh! Yeah, well, in that case, it's not too bad, then. They get a little bit more of a profit off of it by level 20, sure, but with DR like that readily available, it's not OP or anything. You just might have to watch out for creatures that deal less damage, or depend on poison/effects through damage.

And the fact that heavy armor users will probably have DR 15 at level 10, potentially level 8.

[Optimator]

Not hyper-amazing since HP is but one defense, but DR 20 is pretty sizable. It can easily double one's durability.

[lsfreak]

Few problems with this; mainly it massively slow downs combat (even with a calculator, your adding a new step every time you take damage). Also at low damage thresholds, you get stupid rounding errors. Till you hit 5 damage mark (easy to miss at low level combat), you get nothing.

I've considered doing a semi-% based DR. Something like each 10% DR would take one point of damage off every set of 10 damage you deal, so 1 damage off 1-10, an addition 1 damage off 11-20, etc; DR40% versus 23 damage would take off 4+4+3 (the first 4 points available for each set). I haven't tried it out yet, but it seems like it would be nice and fast to figure compare to actual %-based DR, but scaling unlike normal DR.

[Andion Isurand]

If this were for D&D 3.5, I would suggest combining your DR with.... starmantle, empyreal ecstasy or sublime revelry... spells that reduce damage taken from melee and ranged attacks by 50%.

[Jack_Simth]

Two words: Power Attack.Got severely nerfed in Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/power-attack-combat---final). That Tarrasque with 30 BAB? Can power attack for a -8 to hit and +16 to damage. That's it. Yeah, they increased the multiplier... but they put a cap on how much can be used at once. So rather than the two-handed Fighter 10 being able to spit out an extra 20 damage for a -10 to attack (by default; I'm aware of things like the Valourous Weapon Enchantment, the Frenzied Berserker ability, leap attack, Shock Trooper, et cetera), said two-handed fighter can now take -3 to attack for +9 to damage, and that's it.

[Andreaz]

Got severely nerfed in Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/power-attack-combat---final). That Tarrasque with 30 BAB? Can power attack for a -8 to hit and +16 to damage. That's it. Yeah, they increased the multiplier... but they put a cap on how much can be used at once. So rather than the two-handed Fighter 10 being able to spit out an extra 20 damage for a -10 to attack (by default; I'm aware of things like the Valourous Weapon Enchantment, the Frenzied Berserker ability, leap attack, Shock Trooper, et cetera), said two-handed fighter can now take -3 to attack for +9 to damage, and that's it.Don't be so dramatic. The only real loss PA took from being capped is the fact you can't Shock Trooper it anymore. Without Shock Trooper, one rarely power attacked a challenging foe for more than 3 or 4 points anyway. It's somewhere between small nerf and small buff, what with the improved ratio.

[Extra Anchovies]

Don't be so dramatic. The only real loss PA took from being capped is the fact you can't Shock Trooper it anymore. Without Shock Trooper, one rarely power attacked a challenging foe for more than 3 or 4 points anyway. It's somewhere between small nerf and small buff, what with the improved ratio.

It's better because it's easier to understand and simpler to use in actual play. The question is no longer "how much do I Power Attack", something which requires complex calculators (http://donjon.bin.sh/d20/power/) to answer correctly; it's only "do I power attack". Also you get more damage per point of to-hit penalty, since the default rate is 2-for-1 and THF gets 3-for-1.

[Andreaz]

It's better because it's easier to understand and simpler to use in actual play. The question is no longer "how much do I Power Attack", something which requires complex calculators (http://donjon.bin.sh/d20/power/) to answer correctly; it's only "do I power attack". Also you get more damage per point of to-hit penalty, since the default rate is 2-for-1 and THF gets 3-for-1.It's a simpler question, but only easier because of the improved ratio. Its feat support is far smaller in damage, but it's interesting. Furious Focus guarantees you'll always want to power attack, and Dazing Assault gives a 2hf brute something other than damage to do.

[Jack_Simth]

Don't be so dramatic. The only real loss PA took from being capped is the fact you can't Shock Trooper it anymore. Without Shock Trooper, one rarely power attacked a challenging foe for more than 3 or 4 points anyway. It's somewhere between small nerf and small buff, what with the improved ratio.
Now check the context: Grod_The_Giant was pointing out how the presence of Power Attack negates the damage reduction's effect after Ruslan was listing how much the DR hurts various high level thugs.
That Solar (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/angel.html#angel-solar) with a Greatsword and +22 BAB gets +18 damage out of Power Attacking (and soaks a -6 to attack in the doing). Goes from an average of 3d6+18 (average 28.5) to an average of 47.5. DR 20 negates a little less than half, rather than a touch over two-thirds.
That Elysian Titan (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/additionalMonsters/titan.html) (as Ruslan specified CR 21) gets the same boost as does the Solar, and goes from 6d8+28 (average 55) to 6d8+46 (average 73). DR 20 negates goes from a little over a third to a little over a quarter.
That Tarrasque (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/tarrasque.html)'s bite (4d8+15, it's biggest attack) goes from an average of 51 to an average of 67, and the DR goes from robbing the tarrasque of about 2/5ths of it's biggest hit to a little less than 1/3rd of it's biggest hit.

Of course, that's also just a mirage, as if the beast can Power Attack and still hit you with the DR, it can probably power attack and hit you when you don't have it, too.

So, yes: In Pathfinder, DR 20/-, at 20th level: useful, but it's not usually game-breaking, even with Power Attack in play.

[atemu1234]

Definitely not useless.

A Solar (CR 23) deals 3d6+18 (average 29) with his sword. DR 20/- negates two thirds of it.
A Titan (CR 21) deals 4d6+27 (average 41) with his hammer. DR 20/- negates almost half of it.
A Tarrasque (CR 20) deals 4d8+17 (average 35) with his byte. DR 20/- negates more than half of it.

All of which can be beaten by a well-optimized tenth-level party.

[martixy]

It's a low-pass filter.

[Platymus Pus]

All of which can be beaten by a well-optimized tenth-level party.

A small party of 2.

[atemu1234]

A small party of 2.

If you let me, one.

[Jack_Simth]

If you let me, one.
... isn't that pretty much true of all the official pre-statted monsters at CR 20?

[Platymus Pus]

If you let me, one.
Aye, but isn't a party by yourself.
Best start using images and the like to clone yourself to prep. :P