Does the forum effect Rich's story slightly?

[Regneva]

I've been reading the OOTS for quite some now, but I wasn't paying any attention to the forums until recently (like strip #300s or so)

Once in a while I run into some stuff on the comics that, in a way... stand out from the rest of the strip. Mostly some key details in dialogues.

I'm beginning to realize that maybe, some events are directly relevant to what people theorize or predict in the forum. These are very small happenings, not generally affecting the storyline. Things like:

- Xykon's "Moderately Escapable Forcecage" which, before being declared was a hot topic on how Miko managed to escape. Later we were "faced" with a direct explanation.

- Haley's speech coming back (It was foretold however)

- The arrow that larceny guy misfired. I did not notice that arrow going anywhere on the first strip, and therefore I never wondered where it went until the next strip came out. In it we had a direct answer of the arrow's path, visiting several npc's and pc's. I've dived down the forum to see that if there were a topic on the subject, and voila, there it was, mentioning Roy, the dracolich, Vaarsuvius, Miko and everything. The strip had an "all in one" of all the valid predictions.

- Next we had Roys fall, him trying everything he can to prevent his death, not forgeting to mention durkon, V and their range, Celia and the booty talisman and all. All of these were discussed on the forums prior to the strip.

- Now we have "X'es in Roys eyes" spoken by Haley, which was the single way of telling whether Roy was dead or not.


So, I'm thinking; Maybe Rich visits the OOTS forum frequently, reads all the opinions and spoilers, and adds a bit of explanation to the next strip? Of course Rich is very crafty on his art and he is mindful of his storytelling, so maybe he has managed to think of all this little details by himself instead of adding some improvisations.

So what do you think?

[Rai Thunder]

Actually, I was thinking along the same lines. Whereas the Giant said that he tries to avoid the forum for the fact that it might change his ideas, a lot of theories have been represented in the comic, especially in the falling bit.

That is, unless Rich has pre-examined all possibilities and remains one step ahead of us in the game already...

[SteveMB]

So what do you think?
I think that both the speculations in the forum and the actual unfolding of the story are based on the story as presented to date, and so they naturally parallel each other to a significant extent.

I don't see any real reason to assume any more connection than that.

[Hiruma]

Rich reads the forums but not speculation which should be spoilered, the reason being if the speculation is correct he has a strong urge to change it which is a tad bit uncomfortable.

[Grey Watcher]

I somehow doubt Rich is quite petty enough to alter the story as significantly as who lives and who dies. A one-liner here and there might be a reaction to the forums (indeed it he has admitted to it once or twice), but the FAQ is old enough that the story is a lot more involved and plot intensive than when he wrote it, so I doubt he's going to change what's going to happen.

That said, I agree with SteveMB. With so many people posting speculations, one of them is almost bound to hit on the actual outcome, and others are going to appear to be suspiciously close.

[kabbes]

Regneva, it has certainly been suggested before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5943)

And in that thread, Rich said:


And that's part of the problem: People who read this forum often assume that I'm talking to them. I'm not. I don't read 99.9% of the stuff here. Don't assume that this forum is particularly unique or special when it comes to endless debates on alignment; they've happened at every message board I was a member of long before OOTS was a gleam in my eye. The "closing arguments" strip was partly voice-of-author, yes, but it was also the narration that attempted to tie together the alignment themes I've been playing with ever since the gang left town. And it was the counterpoint to the Miko/Belkar scene; one told, the other showed. It was intended as part of the trial from the moment I knew there was going to BE a trial.

Strip #295 was not in reference to anything anyone said on the forum, either. It was the logical extension of events that led to Belkar's release, as well as set up for future plots and jokes. I'm sorry if you didn't like it, kabbes, but don't assume I somehow kowtowed to the forum posters by writing it. I almost made 294 and 295 one big comic, but broke it up because I thought it would be better that way. I honestly didn't even log in to the forum between Friday and Monday, because I'm so swamped with work.

This section has had a lot of exposition, but this is the exposition for the entire quest for a significant period of time. This is, essentially, the exposition chapter of the OOTS book. It had to happen at some point in the story, so everyone would know what was going on.

Personally, I think everyone's confusing my own natural obsession with tying up loose ends with pandering to fans. If I was pandering, I would have ended the trial like 20 strips earlier! ;)

So there's your answer, in a nutshell. It seemed reasonable to me then and it still seems reasonable to me now.

[Silverlocke980]

Maybe we're just really smart and can guess where Rich is going?

Or he's visited forums before and knows how anal they can get.... :)

[jindra34]

Maybe we're just really smart and can guess where Rich is going?

No its Rich is really smart and can see where were going way ion advance...

[BardicLasher]

Maybe we're just really smart and can guess where Rich is going?

Or he's visited forums before and knows how anal they can get.... :)


Or MAYBE the people on the boards post 500 some odd thoeries for everything and are quickly whittled away to a half dozen logical choices. Meanwhile, Rich has already figured out the logical choices, because he knows the story in advance, and plans to put them that way.

It's not hard for hundreds of people working together to figure out the logical extensions of where on person is going.

[fangthane]

Actually, I was thinking along the same lines. Whereas the Giant said that he tries to avoid the forum for the fact that it might change his ideas, a lot of theories have been represented in the comic, especially in the falling bit.

That is, unless Rich has pre-examined all possibilities and remains one step ahead of us in the game already...
In the sense that the Giant is the guy writing the whole works, he does have the substantial advantage of already having a notion of what's going to happen in a specific situation because he's got the story arc and many of its key elements designed in advance. It's not a matter of being ahead of the game so much as it is about making the game, and of course that gives him a bit of an edge. Thought continued below.


I think that both the speculations in the forum and the actual unfolding of the story are based on the story as presented to date, and so they naturally parallel each other to a significant extent.

I don't see any real reason to assume any more connection than that.
Definitely. While we come up with 3 or 4 possible outcomes, and often several more outside chances, the Giant has just one - but we've enough fairly bright people in the forum that it'd be nigh-inconceivable that someone didn't come up with a prediction fairly close to Rich's intentions. Do I think Rich paid attention to me or the several other people pondering whether Roy might be saved by the Flumpfs and that's why they're in the new comic? Nope. He knew it was HIS running gag, as did we, and that he'd need to put them in as a self-reference. Comedy is about timing and repetition. We know that, so does he, and we came to the same conclusion separately - whether or not they're involved, the flumpfs are an OotS-specific running gag which had to be mentioned in some fashion. Just as with the arrow, whose path had to be resolved. It could have been handled in a single panel, but ultimately we, and Rich, knew it needed to be resolved somehow.

[Moechi_Vill]

Actually, I was thinking along the same lines. Whereas the Giant said that he tries to avoid the forum for the fact that it might change his ideas, a lot of theories have been represented in the comic, especially in the falling bit.

That is, unless Rich has pre-examined all possibilities and remains one step ahead of us in the game already...

Rich doesn't break his own rule frequently. Never. Not at all.
We must remember we're dealing with a principled person here like in AMD with a sense of humour. He's not prideful and resourceful.

Seriously though, it's clear as day he reads it when he feels like it. The fact that he tries to avoid it reflects his own opinion - that it'll change the strip.

Chocolate in the fridge.

[the_tick_rules]

it's certianly possible we do.

[Thorin]

i doubt it.

Even in FAQ´s he says that it can happen, but it will be pure coincidence

[nothingclever]

I've been reading the OOTS for quite some now, but I wasn't paying any attention to the forums until recently (like strip #300s or so)

Once in a while I run into some stuff on the comics that, in a way... stand out from the rest of the strip. Mostly some key details in dialogues.

I'm beginning to realize that maybe, some events are directly relevant to what people theorize or predict in the forum. These are very small happenings, not generally affecting the storyline. Things like:

- Xykon's "Moderately Escapable Forcecage" which, before being declared was a hot topic on how Miko managed to escape. Later we were "faced" with a direct explanation.

- Haley's speech coming back (It was foretold however)

- The arrow that larceny guy misfired. I did not notice that arrow going anywhere on the first strip, and therefore I never wondered where it went until the next strip came out. In it we had a direct answer of the arrow's path, visiting several npc's and pc's. I've dived down the forum to see that if there were a topic on the subject, and voila, there it was, mentioning Roy, the dracolich, Vaarsuvius, Miko and everything. The strip had an "all in one" of all the valid predictions.

- Next we had Roys fall, him trying everything he can to prevent his death, not forgeting to mention durkon, V and their range, Celia and the booty talisman and all. All of these were discussed on the forums prior to the strip.

- Now we have "X'es in Roys eyes" spoken by Haley, which was the single way of telling whether Roy was dead or not.


So, I'm thinking; Maybe Rich visits the OOTS forum frequently, reads all the opinions and spoilers, and adds a bit of explanation to the next strip? Of course Rich is very crafty on his art and he is mindful of his storytelling, so maybe he has managed to think of all this little details by himself instead of adding some improvisations.

So what do you think?
The way Miko got out of the force cage was unnatural and having a joke explaining it afterwards really isn't surprising.

Haley's speech coming back was pretty much inevitable otherwise the character might as well have just been chucked otherwise since she did so little at that point.

I noticed the one arrow clearly not having a specified destination and I thought that was deliberately intended because things like that often happen in webcomics where the author purposely leaves a little mystery and resolves it with a gag like the white tentacle creatures being shown after Oots leaves the dungeon to clarify what happened to them.

The X's for eyes thing was probably the only one Rich would really use since so many people said "ZOMG ROY HAS X"S FOR EYES HE"S DEAD!!!11!!" but then again that's pretty easy to predict because he's the one drawing the comic and already knows that's the only certain way of knowing a character is dead.

[wolfwithnofangs]

From the FAQ:

Q: Hey, you used my idea I posted! Cool!


A: No, I didn.t. Even if your idea that you posted completely matches what eventually happened, you can be sure I was not inspired by your post. Largely because I probably didn.t read it (see above question).

[Regneva]

From the FAQ:

Q: Hey, you used my idea I posted! Cool!


A: No, I didn.t. Even if your idea that you posted completely matches what eventually happened, you can be sure I was not inspired by your post. Largely because I probably didn.t read it (see above question).


Well, yeah I know Rich said that in tha FAQ but he wrote it a long time ago, back when the comic was not that detailed.

I'm not saying that Rich gets whole his ideas from the forums. I believe Rich has his storyline laid out perfectly and completely, with no gaps needed to fill.

What I do think is the forum users are somehow contributing to the "puns" and the comedy sense of the comic (never the main plot events or the punchlines), since I believe Rich shapes them "during" the scripting and never before.

[Tharr]

People get real come on Rich would never ever honestly read squat.
He is to busy much like Alan Moore and Frank Miller to read our posts.
Come on he probaly spends time talking with Scott Rouse about markets.
Most comic actions can based on market reasearch like Marvel does.
He probably has the next five years planned like Tolkien did.
Besides he people he pays to read letters.
There is no letters page like any of those letters are truly real people.
Like he would ever then respond on here.
Besides he to draw more, count money, and party at Paris Hiltons.
Hope Friday brings one more then.

[Vargtass]

I do not think that Rich usually responds to the Forum. I do remember, however, that he acknowledged a forum-poster for the "I blame Cerebus"-punchline when the gunpowder barrel blew up. This is the only instance I've seen him acknowledge an idea originally from the Forum.

[RobbyPants]

It's possible that these forums affect the story (even in small ways)...

...but it's also very likely that a lot of posters that "predict" the outcome of the next strip or so have just gotten used to the Giant's "style". I have a friend who is very good at predicting the outcome of a movie fairly early in, just because he's gotten used to a lot of standards in plot twists, and he notices the little, odd details early on that clearly point to something more significant.

A lot of the predictions of the storyline of OOTS are nothing more than trying to figure out the most probably (or interesting :smalltongue:) outcome...

[Haruki-kun]

I somehow doubt Rich is quite petty enough to alter the story as significantly as who lives and who dies. A one-liner here and there might be a reaction to the forums (indeed it he has admitted to it once or twice), but the FAQ is old enough that the story is a lot more involved and plot intensive than when he wrote it, so I doubt he's going to change what's going to happen.

True. The arrow got me thinking, but........... I assume if The Giant took the time to write FAQs, they're probably true.

[DeathQuaker]

With "one-liners" like the "x's in his eyes" it seems plausible that he is responding if not to the forums, then readers he personally knows (e.g., his friends). Because it's acknowledging a meta-knowledge sort of thing.

With broader points like how spells work or rants on alignment, no I don't think they're in response to the forums or anyone else... but this is a strip by a gamer, for (mostly) gamers. Gamers nitpick about spell descriptions. Gamers argue over alignment. They have done ever since D&D was invented and will continue to do so long after the OOTS is forgotten, as long as RPGs themselves still exist. I imagine that many of his "nods" aren't to the forum, per se--but to the people who knows are reading the strip--but in ANTICIPATION to their reactions, not their response. The fact is, many reactions seen in the forums are pretty predictable. I can read a strip and know exactly what arguments are going to be in the forums if I choose to read them. When I saw the meteor swarm a couple strips ago, I knew people would show up calculating what damage it had done, how much damage he'd taken previously and trying to figure out his hit point total. And indeed they were. Anytime Miko shows up, there are going to be x,y, and z threads about her alignment and paladin powers, with certain stock responses and arguments populating each one. It doesn't take a genius or a Giant to figure out the reader reaction in a lot of cases.

[Regneva]

It doesn't take a genius or a Giant to figure out the reader reaction in a lot of cases.

Well you missed me there; I fail to get some of the important stuff spoken or asked about in the forums. I didn't see the arrow, or paid attention to the forcecage, etc.

Guess I'm not a genius...

[DeathQuaker]

Well you missed me there; I fail to get some of the important stuff spoken or asked about in the forums. I didn't see the arrow, or paid attention to the forcecage, etc.

Guess I'm not a genius...

I said specifically you didn't have to be one. I'm certainly not one. I'm downright dumb at times. :smallsmile:

I don't mean any one person can notice EVERYTHING. All I'm saying is sometimes reader reaction is more predictable than some seem to think.

[Kreistor]

It is highly likely that Rich reads more than people think he does.

Here's another one for you. After Roy attacked Miko following her fall, lots of people were saying Roy was not acting LG, because he needed to ask for her surrender first. (I personally disagree. Roy has done that in the past to no avail, so trying a previously failing tactic a second time is just not smart for any alignment.)

The next strip, there's Hinjo magically teleported across the room to block Miko's exit. (Hinjo goes from mourning with his uncle's corpse to Belkar's side, while Roy somehow in between the two ositions can't make the distance.) And what does Hinjo do? He demands her surrender, revealing the depth of Miko's capacity for creating delusions. This in turn justifies Roy's choice to ignore diplomatic routes in the first place.

[Demented]

It actually emphasized Hinjo being good, more than it did Roy.
Up till then, Hinjo had been something of a side character, with no real development.

[LordBarilzar]

Well, I think I'll side with Bardic Lasher's 'Blunderbuss' theory - It's my first day here, would anyone like to tell me how wrong I am? ;) I must admit, it was much nicer getting a fishy stick...

[spmyke]

It's my first day here, would anyone like to tell me how wrong I am?

You're wrong! :smallsmile:

[jindra34]

You're wrong! :smallsmile:


no he is triply wrong

[spmyke]

no he is triply wrong

Even when pointing out that a person is wrong, a person can still be wrong – because they were wrong about just how wrong the person was.

As you can see, Barilzar, you never want to underestimate just how far a person will go to try to elevate themselves above others.

[LordBarilzar]

Thank you, thank you, and I still preferred the fishy stick! :D


And I assume, Spmyke, that levitation spells are only the beginning of the arsenal where that pursuit is concerned? ;)

[spmyke]

And I assume, Spmyke, that levitation spells are only the beginning of the arsenal where that pursuit is concerned?

Indeed, my friend. Just wait until someone casts 'Igathor's Inflated Ego' on themselves. Oh, the madness!

[LordBarilzar]

Or worse still, 'Summon Spirit of the Playground' - the horror!