Item pricing...

[Tyger]

First off, I'm the DM, so I can't use the "ask your DM" suggestions. :)

I want to make sure that I am clear on the guidelines for item pricing, specifically with regard to weapons.

If you add a +1 item property (like Morphing) to a weapon, and want it to be a +2 weapon... do you use the price guildelines for a +3 weapon? I.e. 18,000 gp?

To further complicate this, a Morphing weapon is by default a +1 weapon, so does that mean that you are really only adding another +1, so you'd simply price it as a +2 weapon? I.e. 8,000 GP?

The first seems like a high price to pay, but the second seems low. What's fair?

[Rock Roller]

By the rules, you cannot add Morphing or any other property to a weapon unless it is already at least a +1 weapon. A +1 Morphing Longsword costs 15(Price of a longsword) + 300 (Masterwork) + 2000 (+1) + 6000 (Difference between a +2 and +1 weapon) For a total of 8315 gold. If you wanted to bounce it up to +2 Morphing Longsword, then it would be 18,315.

Also, keep in mind that when dealing with issues like Sunder or damage reduction, only the enhancement bonus matters. I.E., a +1 vorpal longsword (total bonus in price = +6 sword) can be sundered by a +2 short sword. Hope that answered your question, but if not, I can try again.

[Ashlan]

<Edit> Rock Roller's explaination is better than mine was <Edit>

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

When upgrading the weapon you pay the difference in price between the weapon after the upgrade and before.

If it is already a +1 Morphing weapon it is priced as a +2 weapon (+1 enhancement, +1 morphing).
A +2 Morphing weapon is priced as a +3 weapon (+2 enhancement, +1 morphing).

A upgrade would cost 18000-8000 = 10000.


Also, keep in mind that when dealing with issues like Sunder or damage reduction, only the enhancement bonus matters. I.E., a +1 vorpal longsword (total bonus in price = +6 sword) can be sundered by a +2 short sword. Hope that answered your question, but if not, I can try again.


The sunder rules for magic weapons were changed in 3.5. You can sunder magic weapons without having a magic weapon of equal or higher enhancement bonus. Enhancement bonuses only add to HP and Hardness.

[Tyger]

Hmmm....

Yet the Rod of Surprises from the Magic Item Compendium retails for 6000 GP and can do most of this. It can assume the form of several weapons, is +1 in all its forms, holds a Message spell for use, and can also turn into a 60 foot long pole that can support 800 pounds.

Damn guidelines! :) Why can't they just give me rules. :smallsmile:

I think, based on the price of the Rod, what about going with 5000-6000 for a +1 version, (as its more limited than the rod) and adding another 6K for making it a +2 (the difference between +1 and +2)?

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Weapon pricing for existing abilities and enhancement bonuses are actually not pricing guidelines (unlike those for non-listed custom items). They are RAW.

[Dausuul]

First off, I'm the DM, so I can't use the "ask your DM" suggestions. :)

I want to make sure that I am clear on the guidelines for item pricing, specifically with regard to weapons.

If you add a +1 item property (like Morphing) to a weapon, and want it to be a +2 weapon... do you use the price guildelines for a +3 weapon? I.e. 18,000 gp?

To further complicate this, a Morphing weapon is by default a +1 weapon, so does that mean that you are really only adding another +1, so you'd simply price it as a +2 weapon? I.e. 8,000 GP?

The first seems like a high price to pay, but the second seems low. What's fair?

The first is correct. You take all the properties that give pluses, and add all the "pluses" together. All magic weapons must have at least +1 enhancement bonus, so include that in your count. Then you use the price for a weapon with that number of pluses. (This is why the tables go up to +10 even though non-epic weapons can't actually have more than +5 enhancement.)

Examples:

+1 flaming mace: +1 (enhancement) +1 (flaming) = 2 pluses, costing 8,000 gp
+2 holy keen greatsword: +2 (enhancement) +2 (holy) +1 (keen) = 5 pluses, costing 50,000 gp
+5 vorpal scythe: +5 (enhancement) +5 (vorpal) = 10 pluses, costing 200,000 gp

Magic weapons are expensive.

[Tyger]

Weapon pricing for existing abilities and enhancement bonuses are actually not pricing guidelines (unlike those for non-listed custom items). They are RAW.

OK, I'll accept that, but given that, how do you create a Rod of Surprises then? Especially create it at 6000 gp, its listed book value. Its a +1 weapon, with Morphing (a modified morphing, but morphing nonetheless), that can cast a spell at will and has an additional ability not covered by the rules at all. That would make it in the 9-10K range if I'm not mistaken.

That's the problem that I keep bumping into, the "rules" don't appear to always apply to the items that the books list. I know that's because of the noted "guidelines" vs. "rules" but its danged confusin' fer folks like meownself. :smallsmile:

Add to that, all we really need it to do is change between two forms Lance and Longsword. THink this is going to end up as a good old fashioned houseruled weapon. *mutters* And I was trying to avoid too many of those.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

The benefit of a "real" weapon over the Rod is that it can be enchanted and improved as a weapon and follows the weapon guidelines.

[Tyger]

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but 3.5 and I aren't on the best of speaking terms... how is the that different from normal? Can the Rod not be upgraded?

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

You could (as a custom item), but would you really want to?
The price is the Rod is 21600 gp (MoF), would you really want to pay that much extra if you are only in it for the Morphing?

[Starsinger]

No, Rods cannot be upgraded as far as I know...

Also, who's making this item? Is it a player made item or is it something that exists in the campaign world? The reason I ask is because Book of Exalted Deeds has magic items which are basically lightmaces with the disruption ability but they have no enhancement bonuses. So if you just want there to be some fancy Morphing whatevers, you can have them exist in your game. Afterall, to every rule, there are exceptions. But I wouldn't let a PC make an item like that.

[Tyger]

Yeah, its a weapon for a character that would already exist in game. And its for a one-shot game (that might become a campaign later on) so I'm not overly worried about balance or cost. But each player does have a limited budget to spend on their gear.

I'm thinking, since its going to be based on the Rod (and I might even make it a rod) I'll base it off the Rod of surprise, except price it at 4,000 with only three forms (rod, lance and longsword) with only the +1 enchantment. If the player wants the +2 version thereof, add 6,000 gold.

10,000 for the +2 item seems fair to me. Am I way out in left field?

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Again, where have you found the Rod priced at 6000 gp?

You are giving quite a discount (compared to a morphing weapon) and your restrictions are meaningless for the player if those forms where the only ones he would use in the first place.

However, this might not pose any problems in a one shot game or if the characters are otherwise balanced, but note that the +1 discount amounts to give a bit of gold later in the game if it develops into a campaign.

[OzymandiasVolt]

Rod of Surprises. Page 58 of the Magic Item Compendium. Item cost: 6,000gp.
It cannot simply become any weapon the user wishes. It can become a weapon from a short list which is given in the item's description.

[Tyger]

Rod of Surprises. Page 58 of the Magic Item Compendium. Item cost: 6,000gp.
It cannot simply become any weapon the user wishes. It can become a weapon from a short list which is given in the item's description.

Exactly, and we're shortening that list even further, down to rod shape and two weapons. Also eliminating the Message spell and the ablility to turn into a 60 foot long pole that can support 800 pounds without bending. Thus the reduction in the base price.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Thanks for the reference.

The Rod is only treated as a +1 weapon, it is not a +1 weapon.
There is no RAW mechanic for enhancing it with further weapon properties.

The appropriate comparison is the Morphing ability and the item should be priced as a +3 weapon in accordance with the rules for creating magic weapons.

This is RAW and you can of course ignore it, just note the balance issues that might arise.

[Tyger]

Yeah, I think you've got a good point there. If this was an ongoing campaign I'd be more concerned, because that could be a real issue. That said, for this one off, I'm prepared to take the chance.

Thanks for the advice and info everyone!