[PFS Build] Core Campaign Debuff Necromancer

[Strormer]

So I'm finally making a PFS Core Campaign character and I've decided to create a debuff-focused Necromancer. Below you can see the build that I've created. Any comments or recommendations are appreciated.

Also, while I'm posting this, I've see a lot of negative comments toward the Ray of Enfeeblement spell for Pathfinder. I know it's not so great, but is it really that awful? I mean, a major penalty to strength seems pretty debilitating, but I've never played a debuffer before, so maybe I just don't know the standard by which this should be judged.

Anyway, the build!

Male Human (Lergeni) Necromancer 1

STR 10
DEX 12
CON 12
INT 20
WIS 10
CHA 9

Favored Class: Wizard (always use bonus for HP)
Skilled: +1 Skill Point/level
Human Bonus Feat (see below)

Familiar Bond (Rat +2 Fort)
Cantrips
Spell Focus (Necromancy)
Power Over Undead 8/day
Grave Touch 8/day
Opposition Schools: Abjuration, Evocation

Traits:
Deft Dodger (+1 trait bonus Reflex saves)
Reactionary (+2 Initiative)

Feats:
Improved Initiative (+4 Initiative)
Toughness

Skills:
Knowledge (Arcane), Knowledge (Nature), Knowledge (Religion), Knowledge (The Planes), Linguistics, Spellcraft, Perception

Spells in Spellbook:
All cantrips
1 - Grease
1 - Cause Fear
1 - Charm Person
1 - Sleep
1 - Color Spray
1 - Silent Image
1 - Enlarge Person
1 - Ray of Enfeeblement

Spells Prepared:
0 - Daze
0 - Read Magic
0 - Ghost Sound
1 - Cause Fear
1 - Color Spray
1 - Grease
S1 - Ray of Enfeeblement

[9mm]

So I'm finally making a PFS Core Campaign character and I've decided to create a debuff-focused Necromancer. Below you can see the build that I've created. Any comments or recommendations are appreciated.

Also, while I'm posting this, I've see a lot of negative comments toward the Ray of Enfeeblement spell for Pathfinder. I know it's not so great, but is it really that awful? I mean, a major penalty to strength seems pretty debilitating, but I've never played a debuffer before, so maybe I just don't know the standard by which this should be judged.

Anyway, the build!

Male Human (Lergeni) Necromancer 1

STR 10
DEX 12
CON 12
INT 20
WIS 10
CHA 9

Favored Class: Wizard (always use bonus for HP)
Skilled: +1 Skill Point/level
Human Bonus Feat (see below)

Familiar Bond (Rat +2 Fort)
Cantrips
Spell Focus (Necromancy)
Power Over Undead 8/day
Grave Touch 8/day
Opposition Schools: Abjuration, Evocation

Traits:
Deft Dodger (+1 trait bonus Reflex saves)
Reactionary (+2 Initiative)

Feats:
Improved Initiative (+4 Initiative)
Toughness

Skills:
Knowledge (Arcane), Knowledge (Nature), Knowledge (Religion), Knowledge (The Planes), Linguistics, Spellcraft, Perception

Spells in Spellbook:
All cantrips
1 - Grease
1 - Cause Fear
1 - Charm Person
1 - Sleep
1 - Color Spray
1 - Silent Image
1 - Enlarge Person
1 - Ray of Enfeeblement

Spells Prepared:
0 - Daze
0 - Read Magic
0 - Ghost Sound
1 - Cause Fear
1 - Color Spray
1 - Grease
S1 - Ray of Enfeeblement

Problem one, reactionary and deft dodger are both combat traits. you cannot have the two of the same style of traits.

ray's problem is that it's a ray with a save for half. also because you don't actually take a penealty until 2 points of the strength damage the math gimps it more. at level 1 the most you'll do is a -3 to streangth based attacks on a roll of 5 or higher, while you'll need to roll a 3 or higher for -2. 1d6+1/2 cl seems good untill you realize you are rolling an effective 1d3+1/2 cl, BEFORE the saves halve that.

[skypse]

ray's problem is that it's a ray with a save for half. also because you don't actually take a penealty until 2 points of the strength damage the math gimps it more. at level 1 the most you'll do is a -3 to streangth based attacks on a roll of 5 or higher, while you'll need to roll a 3 or higher for -2. 1d6+1/2 cl seems good untill you realize you are rolling an effective 1d3+1/2 cl, BEFORE the saves halve that.

However people tend to forget what STR does except from melee attack roll and damage. 3 STR with a max dice is not high I agree since it only reduces attack and damage by 2 however, the most important thing that STR adds is weight limit. -3 STR on the BSF in full plate may drop him on his knees or give him much more than a -2 on attack and damage rolls.

Despite that, the main reason why spellcasters are stronger than anything in this game (apart from 3pp overpowered martials and templates), is that they should be played smart. The specific wizard has a 17 fort DC on his Ray of Enfeeblement at level 1 right? Shoot that to the enemy spellcaster and laugh as he won't even be able to lift the weight of his robe, let alone move his arms to cast spells. It is all a matter of HOW you will use them and not on WHOM. Grease the barbarian and fighter in front of you, cause fear on the rogue, enfeeblement on the wizard/sorcerer, roll a cigarette, light it and enjoy.

[9mm]

However people tend to forget what STR does except from melee attack roll and damage. 3 STR with a max dice is not high I agree since it only reduces attack and damage by 2 however, the most important thing that STR adds is weight limit. -3 STR on the BSF in full plate may drop him on his knees or give him much more than a -2 on attack and damage rolls.


I'm sorry but no gm on the planet is going to recalculate lifting capacity to check to see if that ray encumbered the target, scenarios constantly go over the 3 hours they should take without having to look up the most ignored rules in the game. bonus fact: it'll be highly likely the BFS wouldn't even notice the heavy load, after all it just sets his max dex to AC to what the full plate already set it too.

[Strormer]

I wasn't aware of the trait type restriction. Given the nature of debuff and battlefield control, I think getting the high initiative result is a bigger value than the +1 to reflex, I think I'll be keeping Reactionary. Any good recommendations for alternate traits? I haven't picked a faction for PFS yet so any of those traits are an option as well. I considered the Dark Archives trait Master of Pentacles, but I felt like it was too limited in versatility, whereas a flat bonus applies regularly.

Regarding Ray of Enfeeblement, I agree that your average DM probably won't go through the effort of determining if a given enemy is encumbered, but I'm glad to see that the spell isn't so terrible for a 1st level spell, at least by RAW.

[(Un)Inspired]

I'm sorry but no gm on the planet is going to recalculate lifting capacity to check to see if that ray encumbered the target, scenarios constantly go over the 3 hours they should take without having to look up the most ignored rules in the game. bonus fact: it'll be highly likely the BFS wouldn't even notice the heavy load, after all it just sets his max dex to AC to what the full plate already set it too.

I've literally done this on multiple occasions as a DM. It's not exactly difficult.

Are there really DMs that don't use encumbrance?

[skypse]

I'm sorry but no gm on the planet is going to recalculate lifting capacity to check to see if that ray encumbered the target, scenarios constantly go over the 3 hours they should take without having to look up the most ignored rules in the game. bonus fact: it'll be highly likely the BFS wouldn't even notice the heavy load, after all it just sets his max dex to AC to what the full plate already set it too.

My first DM did that, I do that, my friends who are DMing in turns on our tabletop games do that. It's much easier to calculate weight than to calculate what your attack roll will be when you are full buffed but prone and flanking while your hands where attacked by a called shot. Your DM just has to calculate the total weight of the NPC regarding the items and then look at the table: "Table: Strength, Carrying Capacity, Examples and Descriptions" in this page (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores#TOC-Strength-Carrying-Capacity-Examples-and-Descriptions). Is your STR enough to hold them or not? 4 STR the slightest hit drops you down on your knees and 2 STR you can't even lift your own weight. I demand my DM would re-calculate this if I am to use Ray of Enfeeblement on an enemy spellcaster.


I've literally done this on multiple occasions as a DM. It's not exactly difficult.

Are there really DMs that don't use encumbrance?

Unfortunately yes. Since it is a troublesome mechanic for the players and it is cheese-counter, most players tend not to use it.

@Strormer: You can still take Deft Dodger for the +1 on Reflex as a combat trait. There is a Race Trait for Elves called "warrior of the old" if I remember correctly that gives you +2 trait bonus on initiative checks. Pick the Adopted trait, chose elves, take this trait and you are good to go.

[Vhaidara]

Second part of his point still stands Skypse. What's that, you've lowered the BSF's Max Dex to +1? And lowered his move speed to 20? So, you haven't done anything his armor wasn't already doing?

Also, beyond that, Strength Damage has no effect on carrying capacity. Citation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores#TOC-Ability-Score-Damage)
Strength: Damage to your Strength score causes you to take penalties on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The penalty also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and your Combat Maneuver Defense. A character with a Strength score of 0 is too weak to move in any way and is unconscious. Some creatures do not possess a Strength score and have no modifier at all to Strength-based skills or checks.

[Strormer]

Beyond even some DMs not dealing with encumbrance, I've found that in Society play this rule comes up even less. Honestly, in many Society games, you rarely run into any difficulties that aren't directly combat difficulties or difficulties trying to get equipment reasonably. Not really a reflection on the DMs, but just on the way Society games get approached.


You can still take Deft Dodger for the +1 on Reflex as a combat trait. There is a Race Trait for Elves called "warrior of the old" if I remember correctly that gives you +2 trait bonus on initiative checks. Pick the Adopted trait, chose elves, take this trait and you are good to go.

Awesome. Well, then I'll go that route unless anyone has a better recommendation. I figure anything that helps boost a Wizards Fort and Ref is worth taking.

[9mm]

My first DM did that, I do that, my friends who are DMing in turns on our tabletop games do that. It's much easier to calculate weight than to calculate what your attack roll will be when you are full buffed but prone and flanking while your hands where attacked by a called shot. Your DM just has to calculate the total weight of the NPC regarding the items and then look at the table: "Table: Strength, Carrying Capacity, Examples and Descriptions" in this page (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores#TOC-Strength-Carrying-Capacity-Examples-and-Descriptions). Is your STR enough to hold them or not? 4 STR the slightest hit drops you down on your knees and 2 STR you can't even lift your own weight. I demand my DM would re-calculate this if I am to use Ray of Enfeeblement on an enemy spellcaster.


hate to break it to you, but the spell caster would probably not care, because carrying more weight than you str says you can only effects movement speed and dex to ac. you'd have to get str to 0 to do what you think it does.

[skypse]

What's the maximum STR of a pure spellcaster in PF? 10? 12? Most PCs dump them and if we are talking about optimized casters, STR goes usually as low as 7. You can bring a spellcaster down to 0 STR with 1 cast. Even spending a metamagic like empower or persistent can make this worth your while.
Plus, I find no logic behind not affecting your carrying capacity but that's another story.

[Vhaidara]

Skypse, have you ever played pfs? Optimization is almost nonexistent among enemies. I think the lowest str I've confirmed on a caster was 8. Generally more 10-12. Beyond that, you are a dealing 1d4+1. That's 2 max damage casts to disable him, and unless you get max damage, you do nothing to hamper him.

Also. I fail to see any point to your last statement. I fail to see any logic in mixing batcrap and sulfur to make a well contained explosion over a hundred feet away from me. That doesn't change how fireball works. Likewise, logic has no bearing on how ability damage works: only every 2 points matters, and it only affects specific things (con damage, for example, has no effect on when you die)