PDA

View Full Version : D&D 3.x Class Beeseecher Discussion.



Snowbluff
2015-06-17, 08:48 PM
I'm building a bee class.
(https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Y9hpvoiCUltxq999KBjcUlkrb7oHw9-RipQJ-xuV-Ug/edit?usp=sharing)
Please suggest alterations here.

Xaotiq1
2015-06-17, 10:49 PM
First, love the name.

Spells I could see this class having: Buzzing Bee, Stick, Resinous Tar and Viscid Globs (re-flavor, tee-hee, as honey) also Insect Plague. Maybe Crabwalk (alter name to "Bee-Line").

I am concerned about having an intelligent magical beast with all the best cherry-picked feats; but I'm probably over-reacting.

Snowbluff
2015-06-17, 10:51 PM
First, love the name. Thanks. :3


Spells I could see this class having: Buzzing Bee, Sick, Resinous Tar and Viscid Globs (re-flavor, tee-hee, as honey) also Insect Plague. Maybe Crabwalk (alter name to "Bee-Line"). Ooh, can I get the sources real quick so I can look at them? :smallsmile:



I am concerned about having an intelligent magical beast with all the best cherry-picked feats; but I'm probably over-reacting.
It'll bee stronger than most animal companions in terms of feat, but keep in mind that this sort of thing is very possible for Rangers and Druids already. As it is right now, most AnCs will have better stats.

Extra Anchovies
2015-06-17, 11:00 PM
It'll bee stronger than most animal companions in terms of feat, but keep in mind that this sort of thing is very possible for Rangers and Druids already. As it is right now, most AnCs will have better stats.

Not really. This is a level = HD magical beast we're talking about: full BAB, d10 HD, good fortitude/reflex, 2+Int skills. Saves and skills are the same as an animal's, but the HD is slightly better and the BAB increase is going to bee huge, especially since it scales directly with level (at 20th level, the Queen Bee has 8 more BAB than an animal companion). I'd give it HD scaling like a Summoner's Eidolon, i.e. (3/4)*(HD+1).

Snowbluff
2015-06-17, 11:08 PM
Not really. This is a level = HD magical beast we're talking about: full BAB, d10 HD, good fortitude/reflex, 2+Int skills. Saves and skills are the same as an animal's, but the HD is slightly better and the BAB increase is going to bee huge, especially since it scales directly with level (at 20th level, the Queen Bee has 8 more BAB than an animal companion). The bee has a starting strength of 11. It'll hit, but it's pretty wimpy. :l

I'll probably have to nerf Bee Growth, though. Besides, the extra BAB will be good when I write the Grappling and Tripping Tributes.

I'd give it HD scaling like a Summoner's Eidolon, i.e. (3/4)*(HD+1).

Pfft... Chovies you crack me up. It's not like lower HD makes it vulnerable to other spells and abilities. Besides, I don't want the poison to scale well, either.

Extra Anchovies
2015-06-17, 11:26 PM
The bee has a starting strength of 11. It'll hit, but it's pretty wimpy. :l

I'll probably have to nerf Bee Growth, though.

Pfft... Chovies you crack me up. It's not like lower HD makes it vulnerable to other spells and abilities. Besides, I don't want the poison to scale well, either.

I still don't think it should get HD = Beesecher class level if it's a full BAB creature type. Maybe its abilities save DCs are calculated using Beesecher level instead of its own HD, and it can use its own saves or those of the Beesechers? It would help emphasize the special link beetween the Queen and its Beeseecher.

On another note, there's this:

At level four, and every 4 levels after that, the Beeseecher may lose one invocation she knows and selects another.
Is that meant to let them upgrade? They get enough invocations that I don't think it should, in which case you should probably change the end of that sentence to "and selects another of the same or a lower grade".

Snowbluff
2015-06-17, 11:32 PM
I still don't think it should get HD = Beesecher class level if it's a full BAB creature type. Maybe its abilities save DCs are calculated using Beesecher level instead of its own HD, and it can use its own saves or those of the Beesechers? It would help emphasize the special link beetween the Queen and its Beeseecher.
Yes, well, I'll look into an alternative type if it become a problem.

Also, that's a bit backwards. If your power comes from your bee queen, why would it use your HD for saves and not the other way around? :smalltongue:

Oh, and the current plan is that you can't cast invocations or prepare spells if the bee is dead. Sound reasonable?


Is that meant to let them upgrade? They get enough invocations that I don't think it should, in which case you should probably change the end of that sentence to "and selects another of the same or a lower grade".

It does. If you look at the table and the bard table, you'll notice they get dark invocations and 6th level spells at the same time. The Invocation progression is set up so that each level, you're either increasing your number of invocations by one, or gaining a new level of spells, so each level gives you something new. The replacement system was set up specifically so they can upgrade at 16.

Xaotiq1
2015-06-18, 12:30 AM
Thanks. :3
Ooh, can I get the sources real quick so I can look at them? :smallsmile:

Other than Insect Plague, which is in the SRD, all of them should bee in the Spell Compendium IIRC.

Silly thought. Could you maybe instead of a magical bee-st, give them a regressed Albiel Queen (MMII) as a cohort? Or a special version that improves with level, becoming a queen at 14th level? I dunno.

Snowbluff
2015-06-18, 11:27 AM
Other than Insect Plague, which is in the SRD, all of them should bee in the Spell Compendium IIRC. Thanks!


Silly thought. Could you maybe instead of a magical bee-st, give them a regressed Albiel Queen (MMII) as a cohort? Or a special version that improves with level, becoming a queen at 14th level? I dunno.

Eh, humanoid bee might bee a tribute (bee buff). If I'm going to change the type, it's changing to aberration or elemental.

As for tributes the ones I have planned are:

Beefy Bee: Gains improved Grapple, Improved Bullrush, Grab, bonuses to grapple as it levels.

Reacher Bee: +5 reach, tripping bonus, bonus to trip over levels.

Humanoid Bee: Bonus to disguise, can use weapons.

Sovereign Bee: Rebuke and Command Abilities.

Zaydos
2015-06-18, 11:39 AM
Fast Bee: Increase bee's flight speed (+30-ft?) and flight maneuverability (to perfect).

Also Magic Missile and Manyjaws can be reflavored into bee spells, I had to do that when one of my PCs was god of eusocial insects (his name was Beelord no that's not right Eridu Beelord :smallsigh: fine his name was Beelord Lord of Bees).

Snowbluff
2015-06-18, 12:37 PM
Fast Bee: Increase bee's flight speed (+30-ft?) and flight maneuverability (to perfect). By itself, that's not very impressive. How about Fast Bee gets a skirmish bonus?

Beech Bee: Swim speed, more piercing damage, water breathing, can make air bubbles for allies.

New Essence idea: Essence Swarm, which attracts Cha mod bees to the target for 3 rounds. Each round, at the start of your turn, the bees deal 1 damage each to the target. This effect stacks with itself, but the max number of essence bee attracted to a single target is equal to your caster level. Each new application refreshes the duration to 3 rounds.


Also Magic Missile and Manyjaws can be reflavored into bee spells, I had to do that when one of my PCs was god of eusocial insects (his name was Beelord no that's not right Eridu Beelord :smallsigh: fine his name was Beelord Lord of Bees).

Sounds good. Magic Missile isn't a great spell, but having a force damage option is good.

Amechra
2015-06-18, 04:18 PM
I am contractually obliged to link Beeserker (http://www.beeserker.com/comics/the-scienceman/) here.

Remember: Bee-powered toasters? Bad idea. Bee-powered robots? Yes.

Snowbluff
2015-06-18, 05:00 PM
I am contractually obliged to link Beeserker (http://www.beeserker.com/comics/the-scienceman/) here.

Remember: Bee-powered toasters? Bad idea. Bee-powered robots? Yes.

This comic is a pretty good description of the class:
http://www.beeserker.com/comics/2010-04-03-beeserker.png
These guys are pretty much what I had in mind for the iconic beeseecher.

EDIT: Wait...
http://www.beeserker.com/comics/2010-04-27-beeserker.png
Closer to the outfit. :smalltongue:

Vhaidara
2015-06-24, 09:19 PM
um,what is this?

Also,i can't see the doc.

Morcleon
2015-06-24, 09:20 PM
0/10, the googledoc requires permission to access. :smallannoyed:

I can't actually make any feedback until you approve my access though. :smalltongue:

Snowbluff
2015-06-24, 09:31 PM
um,what is this?
A bee based divine caster/invoker.

It's a bit overtuned right now, despite not being done.


Also,i can't see the doc.


0/10, the googledoc requires permission to access. :smallannoyed:

I can't actually make any feedback until you approve my access though. :smalltongue:

Dammit, share options keep changing. It should be fixed now.

Please like and subscribe so you can see all of the awesome stuff coming up.

LoyalPaladin
2015-06-25, 10:37 AM
Sigh. Let me go brush up on invocations and HD related spells... Grumble Grumble Torm Grumble...

Snowbluff
2015-06-25, 10:49 AM
Sigh. Let me go brush up on invocations and HD related spells... Grumble Grumble Torm Grumble...

Torm has nothing to do with this.

But you can play a mounted warrior with this. Hideous Blow + a lance while mounted on your bee. It's great for small sized beeseechers, because the stinger damage is independent of size.

LoyalPaladin
2015-06-25, 10:53 AM
Torm has nothing to do with this.
...Or does he?


But you can play a mounted warrior with this. Hideous Blow + a lance while mounted on your bee. It's great for small sized beeseechers, because the stinger damage is independent of size.
That would be neat. I've recently been missing my animal companion class feature...

Snowbluff
2015-06-25, 10:58 AM
...Or does he? IDK, maybe for a lawful Beeseecher. The chaotic ones want nothing to do with anything other than bees.



That would be neat. I've recently been missing my animal companion class feature...

Excellent.

Also, the essence stinger can be used to make multiple attacks in a turn.

Extra Anchovies
2015-06-25, 01:13 PM
That sketch is hella cute. Great job with it :smallsmile:

I'm a bit busy right now so I'll look over the mechanics later, but I felt like mentioning my thoughts on the artwork.

Snowbluff
2015-06-25, 02:59 PM
That sketch is hella cute. Great job with it :smallsmile: Thanks. :3



I'm a bit busy right now so I'll look over the mechanics later, but I felt like mentioning my thoughts on the artwork.

Okay. :D

Jurai
2015-06-26, 03:31 PM
This class bugs me. It would beehoove you to know that I am impressed.

Zaydos
2015-06-26, 03:52 PM
There should be a Eldritch (Stinger?) Essence which lets you make your Essence Stinger inflict poison, and a low level (probably a cantrip) spell which lets you mark something in ultraviolet so that only Beeseechers and Bees can see the mark (really just a variation on Arcane Mark).

You could possibly give them Shatter with the concept that they create a magical buzzing at the required resonant frequency.

Also bees are pollinators Beeseechers should be able to cast Plant Growth and Wall of Thorns Roses

Snowbluff
2015-06-26, 04:16 PM
This class bugs me. It would beehoove you to know that I am impressed.
You've done good, jurai.

There should be a Eldritch (Stinger?) Essence which lets you make your Essence Stinger inflict poison, and a low level (probably a cantrip) spell which lets you mark something in ultraviolet so that only Beeseechers and Bees can see the mark (really just a variation on Arcane Mark).


You could possibly give them Shatter with the concept that they create a magical buzzing at the required resonant frequency.
Yeah, shatter works. Sonic spells are thematic.

Now, for the arcane marking spell... how about it lets you sic vermin on people. That would be good.


Also bees are pollinators Beeseechers should be able to cast Plant Growth and Wall of Thorns Roses
I'll just add as many of the plant domain spells as I can. :smalltongue:

Poison Blast added.

NeoPhoenix0
2015-06-26, 04:44 PM
First some basic analysis: This needs a capstone or something. You are basically stuck in this class, you can't qualify for eldritch disciple without a 1 level cleric dip, if you advance spellcasting you give up on the entire class, probably a bad idea, if you try to advance invocations you lose on the rest of the class again. Also its hard to qualify for those prestige classes unless stinger counts as eldritch blast for prereqs. on the bright side the queen bee always advances.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, it isn't supposed to sound that way, it is ok if a class is designed to be taken to level 20. Since this class doesn't blend well with prestige classes it would probably be a good idea to include some more class features. Even if those class features aren't very powerful or are mainly fluffy in nature it could make the class feel less empty. When i see a class with few class features i'm always looking for prestige classes so this class as it is now would feel a little suffocating to me.

On the bright side, what is there seems to be very well thought out.

Edit: basically 90% good, 10% feels empty and caged in.

Snowbluff
2015-06-26, 04:58 PM
First some basic analysis: This needs a capstone or something. You are basically stuck in this class, you can't qualify for eldritch disciple without a 1 level cleric dip, if you advance spellcasting you give up on the entire class, probably a bad idea, if you try to advance invocations you lose on the rest of the class again. Also its hard to qualify for those prestige classes unless stinger counts as eldritch blast for prereqs. on the bright side the queen bee always advances.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, it isn't supposed to sound that way, it is ok if a class is designed to be taken to level 20. Since this class doesn't blend well with prestige classes it would probably be a good idea to include some more class features. Even if those class features aren't very powerful or are mainly fluffy in nature it could make the class feel less empty. When i see a class with few class features i'm always looking for prestige classes so this class as it is now would feel a little suffocating to me.

On the bright side, what is there seems to be very well thought out.

Edit: basically 90% good, 10% feels empty and caged in.

Here's the class, broken down for dips:

1) Essence Stinger and Invocations: Planned to improved with arcane CL.
2) Divine Spells: Designed to improve with Divine CL.
3) Bee Queen: Always Improved.

Now, because you're improving so much per level, the trade off for gaining alternate abilities is less Divine Casting or Invocations. You can lose 4 CL in either and still access your Dark Invocations (by trading one out at level 16) and 6th level Divine Spells. Getting full casting, Bee Queen, and invoking in addition to more prestige class features would probably make what is already a strong class out of the box too strong.

So how you customize your experience (aside from the standard feats to select your fighting style, optimizing attacks for essence stinger, optimizing casting, etc), not only involves dipping, but also selecting your invocations and bee queen feats. Keep in mind that Warlock and DFA both can pretty much carry themselves on invocations alone.

Which means I need to put in more invocations.

As for regular class features, I'm thinking about it. It's not like your aren't getting game changing abilities at each level or anything between new spell levels and invocations. :smalltongue:

Well, I hope that helps you understand the thought process. Your input is very much appreciated and I'll keep it in mind moving forward.

EDIT: IN the interest of that line of thought, I'm considering 4 new class features.

Poison Resistance (bonus versus poison)
Poison Use (what it says on the tin)
Hive Mentality: Bonus to Charm and Compulsion DCs, bonus to saves versus compulsions and charms.
Meta-Invocation: Spend spell slots to alter invocations with meta effects

INoKnowNames
2015-07-07, 12:26 PM
I'm still trying to comprehend what I'm looking at here. I'll probably need to sleep on it, now that I've had a chance to finally open it up (curse my lack of consistent internet!).

One thing I am a bit perplexed by: why does it get Uncanny Dodge at such a low level, and not eventually gain Improved Uncanny Dodge? Don't most classes that offer the former within the first few levels eventually grant the latter on their own? And it seems like such a weird feat anyway: bees and wasps aren't nearly as good at dodging as flies...

I was also under the assumption that bees died when they sting people, and that doesn't appear to be accurately replicated at first glance.

Jurai
2015-07-07, 12:36 PM
Technically, only the specific variety of bee referred to as the Honeybee dies after it stings, and that's because it's stinger has little hooks that keep it in the skin, making it harder to remove and keeping the poison flowing. Also, only female bees sting, since the stinger is actually a modified ovipositor.

#Beefacts #WikipediaCrawl #Self-inducedNightmares.

Snowbluff
2015-07-07, 01:35 PM
I'm still trying to comprehend what I'm looking at here. I'll probably need to sleep on it, now that I've had a chance to finally open it up (curse my lack of consistent internet!).

One thing I am a bit perplexed by: why does it get Uncanny Dodge at such a low level, and not eventually gain Improved Uncanny Dodge? Don't most classes that offer the former within the first few levels eventually grant the latter on their own? And it seems like such a weird feat anyway: bees and wasps aren't nearly as good at dodging as flies... Bees and many other insects have compound eyes that let them see around them.


I was also under the assumption that bees died when they sting people, and that doesn't appear to be accurately replicated at first glance. It would be pointless if the Queen died each time it attacked, which is why I removed the stinger death from the stat block.


Technically, only the specific variety of bee referred to as the Honeybee dies after it stings, and that's because it's stinger has little hooks that keep it in the skin, making it harder to remove and keeping the poison flowing. Also, only female bees sting, since the stinger is actually a modified ovipositor.

#Beefacts #WikipediaCrawl #Self-inducedNightmares.

Also, this. Bee facts!
http://images1.tickld.com/live/1232487.jpg

Elandris Kajar
2015-07-07, 03:26 PM
Maybe give all-around vision instead of uncanny dodge? (+4 on spot, cannot be flanked)
That seems closer to compound eyes.

Snowbluff
2015-07-07, 04:53 PM
Maybe.

Or maybe I just decide to update the class and give improved uncanny dodge like I've been meaning to.

Bhu
2015-07-11, 03:01 PM
I heartily approve of this!

Snowbluff
2015-07-11, 06:40 PM
I heartily approve of this!

Thank you, Lord Bhu! That means a lot coming from you, sir!
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/newredvsblue/images/a/a3/Simmons_Recreation.png/revision/latest?cb=20110920013838

Bhu
2015-07-13, 02:11 AM
I plan on making a huge bunch of bee themed spells soon if you wanna steal some for use.


You'll have to endure bad puns tho...

Snowbluff
2015-07-13, 07:17 PM
I plan on making a huge bunch of bee themed spells soon if you wanna steal some for use.
Excellent.


You'll have to endure bad puns tho...

Bhu, "Beech Bee" made it into the class. The bee has an aquatic form only so I could make that pun.

https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/11742843_1008328482519834_5655702126552180260_n.pn g?oh=8b80568fb2358757f6ba778c69219a6a&oe=565C4684
I need to make some honey based spells.

NeoPhoenix0
2015-07-19, 08:23 PM
Been a while since i checked in on this. Yay class features.

Also, the talk of honey based spells makes me think about pheromone based invocations.

Snowbluff
2015-07-19, 08:27 PM
Been a while since i checked in on this. Yay class features.
Yep. I made up Hive Mind with you in mind.

Also, the talk of honey based spells makes me think about pheromone based invocations.
I think Charm invocations will handle that, or should I add the Geas invocation from Dragon Fire Adept?

NeoPhoenix0
2015-07-19, 09:53 PM
Yep. I made up Hive Mind with you in mind. I think Charm invocations will handle that, or should I add the Geas invocation from Dragon Fire Adept?

I was going to say that charm is probably good enough, but then i got the picture of some poor soul doped up on venom being forced to do you will... On the other hand Baleful Geas seems to be really powerful. I never knew dragonfire adepts had access to something like that.

I'll just let you decide what you want to do there.

Snowbluff
2015-07-19, 09:58 PM
I was going to say that charm is probably good enough, but then i got the picture of some poor soul doped up on venom being forced to do you will... On the other hand Baleful Geas seems to be really powerful. I never knew dragonfire adepts had access to something like that.

I'll just let you decide what you want to do there.

:o

Maybe a confusion option for essence stinger.

Bhu
2015-07-20, 01:44 AM
Pheromones would be able to do more than charm.

Snowbluff
2015-07-21, 06:03 PM
Pheromones would be able to do more than charm.

Well, a couple of attacks do other things. Directed Assault, for example, gives bonuses for following your lead.

Bhu
2015-09-01, 08:11 PM
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=15697.0 I have a work in progress I'm posting bee spells in if you want any. Sorry for the late reply, I hadda take some time off due to offline problems.

Snowbluff
2015-09-01, 08:54 PM
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=15697.0 I have a work in progress I'm posting bee spells in if you want any. Sorry for the late reply, I hadda take some time off due to offline problems.

Sweet. I'll see about making a note about using those spells. ;3