Tremorsense / other special senses vs Darkness

[Bellberith]

All the senses like tremorsense how do they react with darkness (the spell), invisibility, and dark areas overall?

[eleazzaar]

They ignore it. They aren't forms of sight, so light or it's absense is irrelevant.

[GiantOctopodes]

yeah, they ignore darkness. The better question is whether or not they are affected by Silence (since sounds are created by vibrations, and sounds are nullified, and tremorsense works off of vibrations), or any other means.

For that matter, what about pass without trace? Can someone with tremorsense detect someone using pass without trace?

[SaibenLocke]

Ok so here is why I say they do not ignore darkness. If a creature is invisible and is NOT sneaking then you automatically know where said creature is, but you still have disadvantage on attack rolls and they have advantage on attack rolls. Now RAW states that if you can not SEE a creature then you have disadvantage on attack rolls to that creature. In tremersense it states that they can pin point where a creature is as long as it is touching same surface. I don't think that it ignores darkness at all. I think yes it knows where you are but if you cast Darkness then it will still have disadvantage.

[Safety Sword]

Ok so here is why I say they do not ignore darkness. If a creature is invisible and is NOT sneaking then you automatically know where said creature is, but you still have disadvantage on attack rolls and they have advantage on attack rolls. Now RAW states that if you can not SEE a creature then you have disadvantage on attack rolls to that creature. In tremersense it states that they can pin point where a creature is as long as it is touching same surface. I don't think that it ignores darkness at all. I think yes it knows where you are but if you cast Darkness then it will still have disadvantage.

You would only have disadvantage if you were relying on sight to attack the creature. If you had another sense that meant you didn't need sight then you would just use that to target the creature instead, to Darkness is irrelevant.

[SaibenLocke]

You would only have disadvantage if you were relying on sight to attack the creature. If you had another sense that meant you didn't need sight then you would just use that to target the creature instead, to Darkness is irrelevant.


Ok so according to you ALL invisible creatures that are not stealthing get attacked normally. No. RAW states if you can not SEE the creature then you have disadvantage.

[Safety Sword]

Ok so according to you ALL invisible creatures that are not stealthing get attacked normally. No. RAW states if you can not SEE the creature then you have disadvantage.

Nonsense. Invisible creatures are still attacked with disadvantage because I can't rely on sight to target them no matter the circumstance. They can be standing still and I can't use my sight to attack them. Same goes for darkness, they are effectively invisible to my sight.

If I have tremorsense their invisible state has no relevance because I'm not using sight to find them anyway. Or darkness. I don't care.

[SaibenLocke]

Nonsense. Invisible creatures are still attacked with disadvantage because I can't rely on sight to target them no matter the circumstance. They can be standing still and I can't use my sight to attack them. Same goes for darkness, they are effectively invisible to my sight.

If I have tremorsense their invisible state has no relevance because I'm not using sight to find them anyway. Or darkness. I don't care.

Are you saying that someone can't simply close their eyes and use their hearing to find the location of an invisible creature? Back to the topic though, Tremorsense says that it can pinpoint the source of the vibrations. With that being said there is no creature in the MM that just has tremorsense and no other senses. Most have DV also. If a creature just had tremorsense then it would attack every source of vibration that it felt, that is why they have another sense to [I]see[I] with. RAW if you can not see the target then you have disadvantage. Ankheg for instance has DV60 Tremorsense 60. I cast darkness on myself and hide. It knows where I am hiding if I am within the 60 ft. But it doesn't know what it is swinging at, what weapon I have. So Darkness does still play into affect giving the Ankheg disadvantage.

[Osrogue]

Someond hasn't seen enough of the last Airbender. Just google Toph. They can all do that.

[GiantOctopodes]

Are you saying that someone can't simply close their eyes and use their hearing to find the location of an invisible creature? Back to the topic though, Tremorsense says that it can pinpoint the source of the vibrations. With that being said there is no creature in the MM that just has tremorsense and no other senses. Most have DV also. If a creature just had tremorsense then it would attack every source of vibration that it felt, that is why they have another sense to [I]see[I] with. RAW if you can not see the target then you have disadvantage. Ankheg for instance has DV60 Tremorsense 60. I cast darkness on myself and hide. It knows where I am hiding if I am within the 60 ft. But it doesn't know what it is swinging at, what weapon I have. So Darkness does still play into affect giving the Ankheg disadvantage.

If you're this adamant about it, why are you asking in the first place? If it's your campaign then it works as you want it to regardless, and you don't need our permission for that to be true. If it's not, and someone is saying that with Tremorsense, since they can pinpoint the location of the creature (just like Blindsense, or certain telepathic senses, or whatever else), then yes, they are making a valid decision with that. I'll reinforce the Last Airbender reference if you find that hard to believe, she has Tremorsense for sure.

The actual PHB reference to this states that it works "When you attack a target that you can’t see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you’re guessing the target’s location or you’re targeting a creature you can hear but not see". It specifically does Not state that it applies to creatures perceived through other means. Of course, since Blindsight, and Truesight, clearly allow them to still "see" you, and Blindsense clearly states you do not have disadvantage, Tremorsense is the only one that can be ruled either way. But that's the point- it would be valid to rule in the fashion you describe, saying that Tremorsense is like hearing, not like sight. It is also valid to rule that it's like sight, not hearing, but only for objects that are interacting with the ground. That also explains why no creatures exist with just Tremorsense. All of them have a way to at least perceive flying creatures, objects, and attackers.

If your DM has ruled things in a fashion you don't agree with, rather than trying to gather evidence about why they're "wrong" I suggest talking with them. Find out why they made that decision, if it's a balance thing or a flavor thing. Find out what overcomes tremorsense, and how it interacts with things like silence, pass without trace, nondetection, or other effects. Talk with them about what the limitation "so long as they are in contact with the ground" implies- are you safe if you're standing on a crate or in a tree, like tremors? By working with him to flesh out his decision regarding how Tremorsense works, you're much more likely to get results that everyone finds satisfactory. Sure, the answer to many of those may be "your character has no idea, maybe you should try it and find out", but at least it will get him thinking.

[Bellberith]

If you're this adamant about it, why are you asking in the first place? If it's your campaign then it works as you want it to regardless, and you don't need our permission for that to be true. If it's not, and someone is saying that with Tremorsense, since they can pinpoint the location of the creature (just like Blindsense, or certain telepathic senses, or whatever else), then yes, they are making a valid decision with that. I'll reinforce the Last Airbender reference if you find that hard to believe, she has Tremorsense for sure.

The actual PHB reference to this states that it works "When you attack a target that you can’t see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you’re guessing the target’s location or you’re targeting a creature you can hear but not see". It specifically does Not state that it applies to creatures perceived through other means. Of course, since Blindsight, and Truesight, clearly allow them to still "see" you, and Blindsense clearly states you do not have disadvantage, Tremorsense is the only one that can be ruled either way. But that's the point- it would be valid to rule in the fashion you describe, saying that Tremorsense is like hearing, not like sight. It is also valid to rule that it's like sight, not hearing, but only for objects that are interacting with the ground. That also explains why no creatures exist with just Tremorsense. All of them have a way to at least perceive flying creatures, objects, and attackers.

If your DM has ruled things in a fashion you don't agree with, rather than trying to gather evidence about why they're "wrong" I suggest talking with them. Find out why they made that decision, if it's a balance thing or a flavor thing. Find out what overcomes tremorsense, and how it interacts with things like silence, pass without trace, nondetection, or other effects. Talk with them about what the limitation "so long as they are in contact with the ground" implies- are you safe if you're standing on a crate or in a tree, like tremors? By working with him to flesh out his decision regarding how Tremorsense works, you're much more likely to get results that everyone finds satisfactory. Sure, the answer to many of those may be "your character has no idea, maybe you should try it and find out", but at least it will get him thinking.

I asked........

[GiantOctopodes]

I asked........

Ah, reading comprehension FTL. My apologies, it's too early in the morning. Nonetheless, my points stand- it can be ruled either way as it is not explicitly defined (unlike any of the other special senses) how it interacts with darkness, and the fundamental question is whether you see it more as "hearing" or "seeing" what is in contact with the ground. If it's hearing, not just darkness, but not moving, should also defeat it (but doesn't by RAW, one of the arguments against it working in that fashion). If it's seeing, it ignores darkness completely. Either are valid, but there are other considerations that must be fleshed out. Like most of 5E, much of how it works is left to DM discretion.

[cobaltstarfire]

Are you saying that someone can't simply close their eyes and use their hearing to find the location of an invisible creature?

No. Tremorsense is not based on hearing, it's based on feeling the vibrations through the ground, and monsters that have it can "pinpoint" anything on or in the ground with it, but not incorporeal things or things that are flying, because those things aren't touching the ground.

If you don't have tremorsense you can't just listen really hard, or put your bare feet on the ground and be able to use it. You either must have naturally, or have some serious training in it.


With that being said there is no creature in the MM that just has tremorsense and no other senses. Most have DV also. If a creature just had tremorsense then it would attack every source of vibration that it felt, that is why they have another sense to [I]see[I] with..

No, most creatures with tremorsense are ground dwelling, they don't need to be able to see in order to use their tremorsense, otherwise tremorsense would be a useless ability.

[Easy_Lee]

I agree that that RAW states that disadvantage applies, but I also think it's silly for a creature with tremorsense to have disadvantage in darkness, since that's the main point of the ability. Consider oozes who do not even have eyes, by the lore, and how silly it would be for them to always have disadvantage on attacks.

[coredump]

Are you saying that someone can't simply close their eyes and use their hearing to find the location of an invisible creature?

Of course not. Hearing is not that precise.
Or rather, it is *possible* depending on range, amount of noise, type of noise, and level of background noise. But hardly automatic...more like a longshot.


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As for the OP, it depends on how you interpret "pinpoint".

If my human PC knows where the invisible badguy is, I am still at disadvantage.

If the Ankheg can 'pinpoint' where the invisible bad guy is, does he just know 'which square' or does he know exactly where.

If the badguy keeps talking to me, my human PC can probably 'pinpoint' which square he is in, but would still have disadvantage.
Can the Ankheg use Tremorsense to 'pinpoint' the location more precisely than that??

Up do the DM to determine.

[Wartex1]

Hearing is why Invisibility/Darkness only imposes disadvantage instead of a heavier penalty.

[CNagy]

Anything short of Blindsight does not remove disadvantage from not being able to see your target. Tremorsense allows you to pinpoint where targets are--that is not the same as seeing them. Stand with your feet on the ground and take as many varied body positions as you can; a tremorsensing creature will not be able to differentiate in the darkness. It knows you are there and that's it.

Tremorsense isn't about seeing targets in the dark. There is a reason it is mostly on creatures with a burrowing speed (that incidentally also tend to have darkvision); it is about being able to see targets through earth. It's how the bulette knows that there is a tasty morsel 50 feet above it on the surface.

[SaibenLocke]

I agree that that RAW states that disadvantage applies, but I also think it's silly for a creature with tremorsense to have disadvantage in darkness, since that's the main point of the ability. Consider oozes who do not even have eyes, by the lore, and how silly it would be for them to always have disadvantage on attacks.

Oozes have Blindsight.

[Easy_Lee]

Oozes have Blindsight.

Fair enough.

[Talyn]

I suppose, like everything, it is up to DM adjudication, but at my table at least we ruled that Tremorsense means you do not have disadvantage on attack rolls vs. Invisible creatures.

We also ruled that Silence effectively "blinded" someone with Tremorsense. Pass Without Trace has not come up, yet...