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Valairn
2007-04-26, 01:03 PM
I've tried building one of these before, and failed... Quite miserably I might add, I can sometimes do very well optimizing and sometimes I SUCK, so regardless. What are some of the common builds and feat selections for putting silly amounts of sneak attack dice while throwing spells?

Yuki Akuma
2007-04-26, 01:56 PM
Sorcerer 1/Rogue 19? Stupid amount of sneak attack on Ray of Frost spells...

It wouldn't be a very good build, of course!

Person_Man
2007-04-26, 02:13 PM
Why Sneak Attack? If you're a caster, why not just optimize strait blaster damage? It's a lot easier, and it doesn't have all the restrictions of Sneak Attack. Or do you have a larger build in mind that you haven't described?

Meat Shield
2007-04-26, 02:15 PM
No time to create a build but the first thing that comes to mind is the Spellwarp Sniper from Complete Scoundrel (or is it Comp Mage?)

BardicDuelist
2007-04-26, 02:16 PM
Well, since it fits the thread, is there any feat that allows sneak attack progression to stack with caster progression (like the abundance of feats that allow it to stack with monk, etc)?

Jasdoif
2007-04-26, 02:27 PM
Sorcerer 1/Rogue 19? Stupid amount of sneak attack on Ray of Frost spells...

It wouldn't be a very good build, of course!Why Ray of Frost? Go Acid Splash, no concern with SR.

Indon
2007-04-26, 03:22 PM
Rogue 20, buy wands?

A good Wand of Ray of Frost is cheap, and would provide a good deal of situational damage. Get a few other wands of other cheap elemental damage spells (Scorching Ray, etc) and you can easily be the character with an elemental (or negative/positive energy) damage solution to everything.

BCOVertigo
2007-04-26, 03:57 PM
I have to second the question, why are you looking to sneak attack as a source of damage for your spells? Casters can already toss a handful of d6 and at a group no less, the advantage of sneak attack damage is in it's repeated application. TWF, multiple limbs, iterative attacks, etc are the way to make good use of it, not trying to boost a single hit.

The point I'm trying to make is that sneak attacking with a spell can only be optimized so far, because it's not a great tactic. Even if you do manage to find a full caster build that gets a rogues sneak attack progression, a rogue built for damage will floor you. Looking at master thrower tricks and twf and other sneak attack damage builds, none of them work off of one shot, because frankly 9d6 isnt that much. Repeatable delivery is what you should aim for.

Ramza00
2007-04-26, 04:11 PM
Rogue or Spellthief 1 (using Master Spellthief)
Wizard 5 or Sorcerer 4.
Unseen Seer 10
Spellwarp sniper 4 or 5 or Arcane Trickster 4 or 5

1d6 Sneak Attack from Rogue or Spellthief
4d6 Sneak Attack from US
2d6 Sneak Attack from Arcane Trickster
Caster Level/3*d6 Sneak Attack by getting the Spell Hunter's Eye from PHB2 via the US advanced learning. Hunter's Eye is normally a 2nd lvl Ranger spell, Persist it.
Polymorph into certain forms can get you up to 8d6 more sneak attack

More here
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=745321
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=754824
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=817309

Zherog
2007-04-26, 04:18 PM
Unseen Seer 10

Source? I don't recognize that one...

Ramza00
2007-04-26, 04:22 PM
Prestige Class in Complete Mage. Divination Specialist. Gives 6 skill points, 3/4 bab, full caster, 3 advanced learnings for divination, +4d6 damage boost to sneak attack, skirmish, or sudden strike (only one of those 3 though). Also some minor other goodies.

Only requirements are skill points, and knowing 2 1st lvl divination spells.

It redid sneak attack mages just like abjurant champion redid the gish.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-26, 04:29 PM
Spellthief 20.

No, seriously. Pump your UMD and your CHA and blast away with ray spells. You'll even be able to recover spells or gain spells through the cunning use of the Steal Spell ability.

As for PRCs, Spellwarp Sniper and Unseen Seer are both solid choices for the Spellthief, though I prefer SS for the Sudden Raystrike and the increased potential for SA-able spells. Note also how the Spellwarp ability doesn't specify only being usable on spells you cast naturally: this means you can warp, say, a fireball from a wand of fireball into a sneak attackable ray.

Zherog
2007-04-26, 04:46 PM
Prestige Class in Complete Mage.

Thanks. That explains it - I started reading it, then got pulled away to other things and haven't finished.

Person_Man
2007-04-26, 04:53 PM
Spellthief 20.

No, seriously. Pump your UMD and your CHA and blast away with ray spells. You'll even be able to recover spells or gain spells through the cunning use of the Steal Spell ability.

Spellthief (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a)? Fax, I can't believe you're suggesting that. A core only Rogue 3/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 10 has more Sneak Attack, access to much more and higher level spells, and comparable Skills.

I have to say though, I'd love to see someone actually try and play a Spellthief some day. It'd be a huge challenge, worse then playing Dan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Hibiki) in Street Fighter.

PinkysBrain
2007-04-26, 05:08 PM
The point I'm trying to make is that sneak attacking with a spell can only be optimized so far, because it's not a great tactic.
Some of the multiple touch spells can get quite insane (storm touch for instance).

Indon
2007-04-26, 06:11 PM
Is there a Greater Manyshot equivalent for spells? Something that'd allow a caster to get Sneak Attack on, say, all the blasts of a Scorching Ray?

Jasdoif
2007-04-26, 06:23 PM
Is there a Greater Manyshot equivalent for spells? Something that'd allow a caster to get Sneak Attack on, say, all the blasts of a Scorching Ray?I don't think you'd need one. Each ray (on Scorching Ray, at least) requires a separate attack roll so I imagine you'd get sneak attack damage on each.

Indon
2007-04-26, 06:38 PM
I don't think you'd need one. Each ray (on Scorching Ray, at least) requires a separate attack roll so I imagine you'd get sneak attack damage on each.

Oh, really? Well, perhaps someone with some feats that let them sub in different elements in place of fire for Scorching Ray (or find alternative element equivalents of the spell), for multi-attack elemental sneakiness.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-26, 06:41 PM
Spellthief (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a)? Fax, I can't believe you're suggesting that. A core only Rogue 3/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 10 has more Sneak Attack, access to much more and higher level spells, and comparable Skills.

I have to say though, I'd love to see someone actually try and play a Spellthief some day. It'd be a huge challenge, worse then playing Dan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Hibiki) in Street Fighter.

Hah! I'm actually writing a Guide to Spellthieves.

Indon
2007-04-26, 06:43 PM
Hah! I'm actually writing a Guide to Spellthieves.

I glanced over the class, and I think it'd be pretty scary in conjunction with a couple of Luck feats. (Oh, I see I've been Feebleminded. *roll* *roll* *roll* YOINK!)

BardicDuelist
2007-04-26, 06:45 PM
I really don't mind spellthieves. They are a cool concept which is remotely useful in the right kind of campaign. The master spelltheif feat makes them an excellent multiclass option.

melchizedek
2007-04-26, 06:47 PM
I'm actually playing a spellthief now. They may not be optimized, but they have a lot of nice abilities. They're fun to play.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-04-26, 06:50 PM
Rog3/Sorc6/Arcane Trickster10/AM1.

Spells to grab: Lesser Sonic Orb (1st level spells, Conjuration, so no SR, and Sonic damage, which is rarely, if ever, resisted), Sonic Orb (4th level version), Greater Invisibility, Gravebane, Golembane.

AM ability: Mastery of Elements. This lets you change out the flavor of your damage to whatever you want in case you run across something with an elemental weakness (burn trolls, for instance).

Why this works: Impromptu Sneak Attack. Even if they aren't flat-footed, they are now. Plus Greater Invisibility gives you Sneak Attacks against anyone who can't see invis. For those few who do... they are nailed anyways. Golembane/Gravebane lets you SA normally un SA'able opponents.

Zherog
2007-04-26, 07:00 PM
I don't think you'd need one. Each ray (on Scorching Ray, at least) requires a separate attack roll so I imagine you'd get sneak attack damage on each.

You'll probably want to look at Complete Arcane, page 86, top of the second column.


Some weapon-like spells can strike multiple times in the same round. When the caster gets a bonus on damage with such spells (including sneak attack damage), the extra damage applies only to the first attack, whether that attack hits or not.

For example, a 7th-level sorcerer/3rd-level rogue with Point Blank Shot makes a scorching ray attack at less than 30 feet (2 rays, each requiring a ranged touch attack roll and dealing 4d6 points of fire damage). If the first ray hits, it deals d6d+1 points of fire damage (4d6 normal + 2d6 sneak attack + 1 for Point Blank Shot), while each subsequent ray deals only 4d6 points of fire damage whether the first ray hits or not.

Indon
2007-04-26, 07:03 PM
So, we're going to need Greater Improved Manyray (or whatever) after all, eh?

Zherog
2007-04-26, 07:14 PM
Indeed. I'm not sure I agree with the conclusion, but that's the official ruling on it.


The reasoning behind it: While you're making multiple attack rolls, it's all still part of one action - the "cast a spell" action, to be exact. It's a standard action spell with an instantaneous duration, so in theory all the rays go off at once and you can only precisely aim one of them.

I think if you're going to go with the official ruling, a feat is a fine way to resolve it. Off the top of my head, prereqs of Point Blank Shot and Caster Level 9 should be fine.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-04-26, 07:26 PM
Indeed. I'm not sure I agree with the conclusion, but that's the official ruling on it.


The reasoning behind it: While you're making multiple attack rolls, it's all still part of one action - the "cast a spell" action, to be exact. It's a standard action spell with an instantaneous duration, so in theory all the rays go off at once and you can only precisely aim one of them.

I think if you're going to go with the official ruling, a feat is a fine way to resolve it. Off the top of my head, prereqs of Point Blank Shot and Caster Level 9 should be fine.

Umm... you realize just how broken that's going to make an already powerful spell? Scorching Ray already does 4d6 X 3. If you allow SA on all three, you're looking at something like 11d6 each, for a total of 33d6. That's just for a 2nd level spell. Now let's Metamagic it. Rod of LESSER Maximize (since it's only a 2nd level spell) and that's a flat guarenteed 198 damage. For a 2nd level spell. Grab a single level of Archmage so you can change your flavor as needed and you're seriously talking Stinky Cheeze.

Besides, I'd just go with Lesser Sonic Orb from Complete Arcane or Spell Compendium. Does up to 5d6, NO SR, as a 1st level spell. Fun times. Does less damage than the scorching ray, but doesn't allow SR, and Sonic is rarely, if ever, resisted. It's not so stinky cheeze.

Aximili
2007-04-26, 07:50 PM
You can't maximize sneak attack damage.

Innis Cabal
2007-04-26, 07:51 PM
a warlock/rogue would be good as well

Hamster_Ninja
2007-04-26, 07:56 PM
The lesser rod of maximise would maximise the SPELL damage, so it'd be 24+xd6. Not nearly as amazing.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-04-26, 08:13 PM
The lesser rod of maximise would maximise the SPELL damage, so it'd be 24+xd6. Not nearly as amazing.

Actually, it would be 24 per ray, for a total of 72+(x*3)D6 (getting 7d6 SA just from Rog3/Sorc6/AT10, so that's +21d6)... still very scary.

illathid
2007-04-26, 08:39 PM
I had build that was rogue1/wizard 4/Unseen Seer 7/Arcane Trickster 8. You could probably swap out the last 5 lvls of unseen seer for spellwarp sniper though. You get 8d6 sneak attack and only lose one caster lvl, so get 9th lvl spells.

Ramza00
2007-04-27, 04:20 AM
Umm... you realize just how broken that's going to make an already powerful spell? Scorching Ray already does 4d6 X 3. If you allow SA on all three, you're looking at something like 11d6 each, for a total of 33d6. That's just for a 2nd level spell. Now let's Metamagic it. Rod of LESSER Maximize (since it's only a 2nd level spell) and that's a flat guarenteed 198 damage. For a 2nd level spell. Grab a single level of Archmage so you can change your flavor as needed and you're seriously talking Stinky Cheeze.


Maximize or Empower won't be good. Twin and Split Ray would be great with this custom feat.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-04-27, 04:28 AM
Maximize or Empower won't be good. Twin and Split Ray would be great with this custom feat.

Twin Spell more than Split Ray (which only grants one additional ray rather than one whole spell's worth). 4d6 X 6 now... and if you allow SA... that's up to 66d6 with a single spell... OUCH.

Can you say Broken? Sure... I knew you could...

Ramza00
2007-04-27, 04:37 AM
Twin Spell more than Split Ray (which only grants one additional ray rather than one whole spell's worth). 4d6 X 6 now... and if you allow SA... that's up to 66d6 with a single spell... OUCH.

Can you say Broken? Sure... I knew you could...

66d6 sneak attack damage against a single target. Doing 66d6 total damage spread over multiple targets aren't anything special.

Broken perhaps not, changing the balance of how wizards/sorc do damage, definately.

Arbitrarity
2007-04-27, 07:23 AM
Very broken, take the same, and use Telekenesis.

15x SA damage :O.

Which is why that ruling's in place.

Valairn
2007-04-27, 07:42 AM
Okay I'm gonna go ahead and clarify what i was going for... heh.

Someone who doesn't need to use UMD for his spells, or steal them from others, Sorry Fax, I do look forward to your guide.

My original build idea, was using rogue/wizard/unseen seer/arcane trickster/archmage build. Good, but not great sneak attack damage, excellent caster progression, but a lot of burned feats, that I could use to maximize my silly amount of dice. That didn't work as well as I wanted, too much dependency and prepared spells, which isn't best for blaster builds.

Of course I don't really HAVE to have sneak attack damage, I just like the flavor of it. If you want to just throw out some optimized blaster builds, regardless of sneak attack damage, I would be just as interested.

Thanks for the responses so far.

Indon
2007-04-27, 07:44 AM
Twin Spell more than Split Ray (which only grants one additional ray rather than one whole spell's worth). 4d6 X 6 now... and if you allow SA... that's up to 66d6 with a single spell... OUCH.

Can you say Broken? Sure... I knew you could...

If we were restricted from making feats that synergized too well with something in some sourcebook somewhere, there would be very little homebrewing indeed.

That aside, this "Twin Spell", even without homebrewing a Manyray feat line (At least 2 feats to be in line with Manyshot, don't ask me what the first would do), would it allow you to use SA on two rays in one action? (One per spell, namely)

That would allow us to use, say, Twinned Ray of Frost or such to some good effect. Even if we can't get off as many shots as an archer, we can pick what element of damage we'd be doing with those shots and so could prey on possible weaknesses.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-27, 03:44 PM
Unseen seer reduces the caster level of any spells not divination.

Ramza00
2007-04-27, 04:05 PM
Unseen seer reduces the caster level of any spells not divination.

US 10 forces all spells which aren't divination to be caster level -3, and all divination spells caster level+3. To get a sneak attack or skirmish damage most likely you are losing a level in rogue or scout.

Amazingly Practiced Spellcaster fixes the lost of caster level by 4 (3 from US, 1 from another class). It just flows well together :smallwink:

Matthew
2007-04-28, 10:23 PM
Hah! I'm actually writing a Guide to Spellthieves.
Interesting. I have a long standing dislike of this Base Class, basically because I expected them to be Wizard/Rogues and was sorely disappointed. The Beguiler was somewhat better, but all the same...

Wizardguy
2007-06-05, 07:56 AM
still wrong info going 'round?!
sneak attack works great with scorching ray, but only with the first of those rays, not with all of them!

>Volley Type Attacks

>Sometimes, you make multiple attacks with the same attack roll, such as when >you use the Manyshot feat, or you make multiple attack rolls as part of the >same attack, such as with the scorching ray spell. When you do so, only the >first attack in the volley can be a sneak attack.

http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040309a

my own blaster still needs uppers... got depressed when he read this! ^^

The Mormegil
2007-06-05, 09:30 AM
I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE KEEP SAYING THAT DAGGERSPELL MAGE ISN'T GOOD.


I play one by now and I think it's a good blaster:
I am Ninja 1/Sorceror 5/Daggerspell Mage10 and planning to go Arcane Trickster 4. Yep, Archmage is good, but being a blaster it's a 3 feats-wasting.
You can get Master of Elements with a costumized object or simply via rods of Elemental Substitution Metamagic. And being Sorceror you don't need Arcane Fire(that is a bit expensive, talking about 9th level spells... really you could use better another Time Stop). Ninja vs Rogue: I'm using Invisibility a lot and when it's not that it's Ethereal + Transdimensional Spell (quite cheezy), so Sudden Strike isn't that much of a loss and I get +2 Will that's always useful. Daggerspell mage makes me lose 1 CL, so it's 2 less than a full caster. By lvl20 I'll be able to cast 9th level spells anyway. I'm sorceror, so I have an awwwwful amount of spells per day. Why not use them?

-Feats: Sudden Max is good in this build, you can't use rods (if you don't craft them inside your daggers); you need Two-Weapon Fighting and Weapon Focus. I use also Weapon Finess (I have maxed Dex, so it's a +8 with a single feat). Take Arcane Strike.

-Spells: Fire explosion, Greater from CAr is the baddest blast I know. I love Channeled Pyroblast from PHBII for this build, also. Take a "Sword" spell (SA on them, too). If you can't afford a pair of Brilliant Energy daggers, buy them with some spell slots and take Brilliant Blade (or is it Sword?) from CAr, and/or Wraith Strike from CAd (for Dragons and the like).

Now: Cast Contingency-Greater Invisibility and take a pair of Haste boots.
rnd1-Contingency+Haste+move around the enemy
rnd2-Your sword don't flank, your allies do and you get SA not SS from your PrCs, so it's 1d6 less if they see you. Hope they don't 'cause you're going to hurt them.
Hit them. You strike an AC 10, more or less (brilliant energy + flat footed) with a good AB. Sacrifice some spell slots: let's say they are 4 7th level slots. It's +7d6 per attack with Daggerspell Mage and +7d4 per attack with Arcane Strike (and you can have maaany attacks with Two-Weapon Fighting+Haste). Plus Sudden Strike. Plus, you had a full attack with your daggers, you get a Quickened spell (it's 9/day on my current build). Maximize it via Sudden Maximize. It could be a touch spell (channeled through your main dagger to get another 7d6+7d4 damages) or maybe a Greater Fire Explosion (15x8 damages). Plus, use Greater Celerity and repeat it again but this time you cast TIME STOP as a Quickened Spell. Plus, win.

And this is only because of Daggerspell Mage that allows a Sorceror to get Quickened Spells...

As I said, I don't understand why people underestimate this PrC.

Jimp
2007-06-05, 11:18 AM
The master spelltheif feat
What book is that feat from?

Dark Tira
2007-06-05, 12:03 PM
What book is that feat from?
Complete Scoundrel.

The problem with straight spellthief is that it lacks access to some of the better spells for sneak attack. Cloud of Knives is pure win with sneak attack.