Increasing the power curve

[KoDT69]

OK so I have started a new D&D campaign after about 8 years of not playing. Unlike many people who take a break from the game, I have been a very frequent reader of the forums (especially GitP) and have always kept up on combos, builds, and other various discussions so I'm not coming here looking for help in a traditional sense. What I would like to know is the Playground's feelings on a few extras I have given classes played at my table. I was aware that Pathfinder had existed, but had never looked at it before establishing my changes.

One of the main things I did was to give bonus feats to all melee classes, roughly double what they were getting, and many other similar things that many others do in that regard. I also allow feats other than metamagics to be retrained in short periods of downtime so that they do not get stuck in a rut. The melee classes I know are lower powered because of the lack of magic but this is something we all know from the start. Fighter is not equal to Wizard.

The biggest thing though that I'm doing is that each BASE class is being given a number of generic "class features" to which I will allow them to take any class feature normally gained from prestige classes as long as they meet whatever prerequisites there would have been. In short, this means that a standard Rogue would be able to take Shadow Jump from the Shadowdancer PrC without taking the PrC class, or I will even allow a Fighter to pick up the Defensive Roll ability. I have no issue with the cross-class ability swapping, even the UA has the alternate class features.

The real question is what sort of abuse shall I look out for, or even suggest to my players? I don't mind them being upgraded in power because I am accustomed to what the Playground has dubbed, "The Tippyverse", in which I have always had my own version. Heck, I wanted the Sorcerer in my group to get an edge so I gave him Eldritch Blast and an Invocation every 4th level on top of removing the casting time metamagic thing (makes no sense anyway, Sorc has natural talent if anything it should have been easier), and he gains new spell levels when the other full casters do. I did the same for Favored Soul except all divine and stuff :)

[OldTrees1]

Well there remains the caster-martial imbalance but I suspect you have that under control through DMing and reasonable players.

In general there is nothing wrong with letting players add class features to their classes until they get 1 level's worth of features per level (The prereq idea is good for verisimilitude). Do note that different class features are worth different amounts. I would judge it on a character by character basis rather than guess at a fixed number of class features.

There may be some obscure class feature combo that becomes broken but that would be the exception to the rule and be rare enough that you could address it after the fact without concern. I can't think of one and I like massively multiclassed melee characters.

[martixy]

I think THESE (http://theworldissquare.com/feat-taxes-in-pathfinder/) do a lot for improving versatility and options for the martials.

Weapon groups or a few more relaxed rules on proficiencies will also go a long way.
Say gaining a few basic proficiencies and getting another one extra for every point of BAB you get.

Another idea, extending the top link is half-feats. Crap like Acrobatic, Agile, Negotiator and the like, who no one in their right mind would take. Even further, you can easily dispense half-feats as rewards for PCs accomplishing tasks without worrying about upsetting the balance too much.

[eggynack]

I'm inclined to think that PrC class features are too disparate in power level to serve as a balanced mechanic. After all, they span all the way from the reaping mauler's adept wresling, to the hathran's rashemi spirit magic and circle leader abilities. They're like feats, except without even the underlying pretense that there exists balance between them.

[KoDT69]

I'm inclined to think that PrC class features are too disparate in power level to serve as a balanced mechanic.

While that is absolutely true, my goal was simply to add more options and diversity to the base classes, not fix balance. In my 22 or so years in D&D I know this to be a futile goal. The players are aware when choosing a class of this power gap. As DM I am able to craft encounters and story hooks that still focus on the melee dudes and keep everyone included.

I'm really just looking for abusable PrC feature combos that may be grossly abusable.

[eggynack]

While that is absolutely true, my goal was simply to add more options and diversity to the base classes, not fix balance. In my 22 or so years in D&D I know this to be a futile goal. The players are aware when choosing a class of this power gap. As DM I am able to craft encounters and story hooks that still focus on the melee dudes and keep everyone included.
I'm not suggesting that this won't increase balance, but that it may reduce it.


I'm really just looking for abusable PrC feature combos that may be grossly abusable.
The hathran ones are a pretty big deal, as are a lot of those high end PrC abilities. Really, you might be best off just poking through the tier system for PrC's (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0), and looking into classes ranked +2 or greater. From that point, if we assume optimization, then it makes sense to think that any class abilities pulled from PrC's will be taken from those classes, so that's about what balance will look like. Not my favorite guide out there, and it's far from perfect, but it's a good place to start to gain some understanding of what such a game could look like.

[OldTrees1]

I'm not suggesting that this won't increase balance, but that it may reduce it.


The hathran ones are a pretty big deal, as are a lot of those high end PrC abilities. Really, you might be best off just poking through the tier system for PrC's (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0), and looking into classes ranked +2 or greater. From that point, if we assume optimization, then it makes sense to think that any class abilities pulled from PrC's will be taken from those classes, so that's about what balance will look like. Not my favorite guide out there, and it's far from perfect, but it's a good place to start to gain some understanding of what such a game could look like.

High Tier prestige classes are ranked high for their density of good class features or for having a particularly great class feature. So while they will have features that will be drawn upon, there are plenty of features in the more numerous but less dense classes. (Red Wizards get Circle Magic but are only listed as +0)

However I would agree that not all class features are equivalent and thus I urge the OP to allow and only allow 1 level's worth of class features per level. Note: 1 level's worth implies a balance judgement and does not mean simply bunching class features together with other class features of the same level.

[eggynack]

High Tier prestige classes are ranked high for their density of good class features or for having a particularly great class feature. So while they will have features that will be drawn upon, there are plenty of features in the more numerous but less dense classes. (Red Wizards get Circle Magic but are only listed as +0)
True enough. A good place to go might be classes with really expensive abilities, which are either made so for how high in level you have to go to get them, or because of how many caster levels you have to ditch. If you're just picking up standard high op PrC abilities, then I suppose that looks a lot like PrC'ing, but if you pick up stuff that was balanced and now is not, that's where things get a bit dangerous.

[KoDT69]

Just to be clear, I'm not allowing a full character PrC level worth of abilities, just individual abilities. The player also must meet any level or feat or skill requirements that would have been necessary to get into the PrC.

An example is that I am giving the Wizard base class 5 of these abilities. He could take 5 High Arcana from Archmage and it would be the same as taking the PrC but he could take only 2 of those and maybe Trapfinding, or Evasion, or Mettle just for flavor.

The real shame to me is that there are base classes in which the only reasonable option is to PrC out. It makes very little sense that they took the PrC route almost exclusively instead of making more options for the core classes.

[OldTrees1]

Just to be clear, I'm not allowing a full character PrC level worth of abilities, just individual abilities. The player also must meet any level or feat or skill requirements that would have been necessary to get into the PrC.

If you do "any individual ability they qualify for" then only the most powerful abilities make sense and you would end up more unbalanced since there are stronger single caster abilities than there are single non caster abilities.

In order to make it so that you do not get unbalanced you would need to look at the level of the base class and see how much under par that level is. Then you allow that difference (par-base class level value) to be selected from PrC abilities. It is important to remember that just because Red Wizard(example prestige class) gets Circle Magic at 5th level, does not mean Circle Magic is worth 1 level of abilities(it is, in fact, worth multiple). Likewise just because Monk gets Timeless body and Tongue of the sun and moon at 17th does not mean that together they are worth 1 level of abilities(they are, in truth, worth little to nothing). So use balance judgement rather than merely counting individual abilities if you want this to work.

[KoDT69]

In order to make it so that you do not get unbalanced *snip*

Again, not using this as a balance tool, just extra options. If I have a player who wants Monk abilities though, I will put him together a hefty package of Monk crap and warn him that it's a waste. I will consider scoring them though depending on how the power shifts between classes over the campaign. So far everyone has had really good luck in being useful in situations. The Paladin has been on par with the Sorcerer and more useful than one of the 2 Druids so far.

[eggynack]

Just to be clear, I'm not allowing a full character PrC level worth of abilities, just individual abilities. The player also must meet any level or feat or skill requirements that would have been necessary to get into the PrC.

An example is that I am giving the Wizard base class 5 of these abilities. He could take 5 High Arcana from Archmage and it would be the same as taking the PrC but he could take only 2 of those and maybe Trapfinding, or Evasion, or Mettle just for flavor.

The real shame to me is that there are base classes in which the only reasonable option is to PrC out. It makes very little sense that they took the PrC route almost exclusively instead of making more options for the core classes.
I got that that's what you're doing. It's just that that's the thing that's possibly unbalanced. Like, instead of picking high arcana, what say they use metamagic effect, one of the veil abilities, maybe some hathran stuff, and something from war weaver. That'd be crazy shenanigans right there. And, again, to your statement that this isn't a balance tool, the concern is that this is an un-balance tool.

[OldTrees1]

Again, not using this as a balance tool, just extra options.

Um. I did not imply you were using it as a balance tool. I just pointed out how to make those extra options not be unbalancing.

[Segev]

A few months ago, I wrote some feats (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BWI2n1Xg1okUhHNABnXN0yShhgRmRYp4vaUq2SI1Hp4/edit?usp=sharing) with the intent to try to help those who rely on them to, if not be Tier 1, at least not have such massive gaps between Tier 2 and themselves. And be able to do their jobs even when facing Tier 1 enemies. Feel free to use, abuse, or adapt any of htem you like.

I have not, sadly, had a group with which to playtest them; if you do use them, I would be interested in hearing if they seem to work well and how to improve them or of any problems encountered.

[Flickerdart]

The real shame to me is that there are base classes in which the only reasonable option is to PrC out. It makes very little sense that they took the PrC route almost exclusively instead of making more options for the core classes.
It makes perfect sense. The classes that needed help the most had nothing to give in exchange, and many classes had the exact same problems. It's much easier to release a PrC that ten classes can take, slap a token feat tax on it so that people don't yell "power creep" and call it a day.

[atemu1234]

It makes perfect sense. The classes that needed help the most had nothing to give in exchange, and many classes had the exact same problems. It's much easier to release a PrC that ten classes can take, slap a token feat tax on it so that people don't yell "power creep" and call it a day.

That, and the classes are lackluster in general.

[KoDT69]

That, and the classes are lackluster in general.

That was my exact point. I am ADDING to the base classes to make them more fun to play. Back in the day when we got new material like Player's Option: Skills & Powers it was in fact a collection of new abilities to be ADDED to the base classes. We decided as a group what to include and how to incorporate it.

In D&D you have 4 main types, Fighter, Skillmonkey, Divine caster, and Arcane caster. All other classes and PrC's are simple one or more of those concepts splattered with new abilities that they didn't think of when the core classes were printed. The way it is written over time is that you end up with something like Warblade which IS a Fighter but with useful abilities. It makes just as much sense to me that a Fighter should be able to learn the same maneuvers, let's say by using their bonus feats. There is no real justification in the Warblade being able to learn when another Fighter could not unless you go with some BS flavor like "Warblades have Demon blood which grants some innate magical type abilities". We're talking about a game where the most powerful being in the mortal realm can be a regular human that had a knack for knowledge and collected all the books he could.

My current campaign I am running will be proof of this idea. My melee classes will be getting a few free Desert Wind maneuvers through the story progression, amongst some others for the Paladin and Rogue.

[Grooke]

If none of you have played in a while, you may want to look into 5e. Picking up again is a good time to switch systems. However, if you want to stay in 3e/3.5 you can still take a peak at the classes for inspiration.

Adding features and options to base classes is something I find 5e does very well, basically incorporating mane PrC into the base classes as part of their optional progression.