Lawful Barbarian Favored Enemy

[BilltheCynic]

Let's say that a barbarian started out as a nonlawful alignment, but for RP reasons shifted to a lawful alignment. By RAW, a lawful barbarian can no longer rage. However, if the barbarian had used the UA acf that trades rage for favored enemy, would the barbarian lose his favored enemy feature when he becomes lawful?

[heavyfuel]

No, he wouldn't lose it.

Also, there's a stickied post that is perfect for quick rules Q&A.

[Gracht Grabmaw]

I never understood why a lawful person wouldn't be able to use rage anyway.
Usually in real-life it's the hardliners and fundamentalists who always get needlessly aggressive and angry about everything.

[heavyfuel]

I never understood why a lawful person wouldn't be able to use rage anyway.
Usually in real-life it's the hardliners and fundamentalists who always get needlessly aggressive and angry about everything.

IRL, people don't get stronger and tougher when they throw a fit. They can also run afterwards, and they aren't limited to 1/day.

Just saying that "Raging" is very different than simply being angry.

[SowZ]

IRL, people don't get stronger and tougher when they throw a fit. They can also run afterwards, and they aren't limited to 1/day.

Just saying that "Raging" is very different than simply being angry.

Then just from a pure game standpoint, it kills a bunch of character concepts while adding nothing to the game. Why should Barbarians all by chaotic people? Why not have Barbarian monks? Why not have a really orderly, calm, collected person whose stress builds and builds in such a lawful lifestyle and explodes? A lawful neutral soldier who is all about the theory behind swordplay and following orders, but in battle sometimes flies off the handle.

What does it add to the game to make characters more cookie cutter?

[heavyfuel]

I never said it's a bad houserule to have lawful barbarians, and they actually exist in my games. I just said it's dumb to compare the Rage ability to simply being angry.

[illyahr]

Rage has always seemed to be the character tapping into the primal urges within to force the body to kick up the adrenaline. Kind of like voluntarily triggering the Fight or Flight response. One who is calm and in control would have trouble tapping into that primal urge. That's just me, though.

Not saying impossible, just a lot more difficult.

[Flickerdart]

One who is calm and in control would have trouble tapping into that primal urge.
Nothing about the Lawful alignment requires people to be calm and in control, nor does anything about the Chaotic alignment prevent it.

[illyahr]

Nothing about the Lawful alignment requires people to be calm and in control, nor does anything about the Chaotic alignment prevent it.

Sorry, that was meant to compare a barbariang raging with a monk's discipline. Clear as mud on my part. :smalltongue:

What I meant was that the primal raging of a barbarian, something that overrides the ability to use most thinking skills, doesn't lend itself well to the self-discipline that Lawfulness implies.

[Blackhawk748]

It probably has something to do with the fact that the Barbarian is based somewhat off of Celtic and Viking Berserkers, who would get drugged up before a fight and beat the crap out of people.

Now the fighting style is very much instinctual and unique to the person using it, so thats probably why they thought "Hmm a Lawful Barbar would be weird"

I agree its silly to have the base Barbarian be restricted like that, though i could see it on the Frenzied Berserker.

[Keltest]

The barbarian rage is all about losing your inhibitions and self control. That's something that a lawful person would just flat out be unable to do, because they believe heavily in order and control.

[SowZ]

The barbarian rage is all about losing your inhibitions and self control. That's something that a lawful person would just flat out be unable to do, because they believe heavily in order and control.

Believing heavily in order and control in no way prevents a person from losing inhibitions or self control. To say otherwise is to imply Lawful characters are robots who've abandoned a major part of the human experience. People are not caricatures of their alignment. People are people. They are capable of the entire range of emotions. A NG character can still enjoy hurting someone they hate or who has hurt their loved ones. A LG character can be petty. A CE person can still feel sympathy for people. A TN character is capable of fully devoting themselves to a cause.

[Keltest]

Believing heavily in order and control in no way prevents a person from losing inhibitions or self control. To say otherwise is to imply Lawful characters are robots who've abandoned a major part of the human experience. People are not caricatures of their alignment. People are people. They are capable of the entire range of emotions. A NG character can still enjoy hurting someone they hate or who has hurt their loved ones. A LG character can be petty. A CE person can still feel sympathy for people. A TN character is capable of fully devoting themselves to a cause.

I suppose it doesn't technically prevent them, in the literal sense of the word. But lets be honest here, if you believed heavily in the importance of self control, would you voluntarily embrace a fighting style designed around completely abandoning just that?

[SowZ]

I suppose it doesn't technically prevent them, in the literal sense of the word. But lets be honest here, if you believed heavily in the importance of self control, would you voluntarily embrace a fighting style designed around completely abandoning just that?

I'm not saying it would be a common character. But a character that is big on self control and law and order because they know they lose control and want a better handle on it, or even a character who knows they are stronger when raging but only use it when they have to because they fear themself, is perfectly valid and consistent with many literary tropes. Lawful characters exist in fiction that would be Barbarians, why limit the stories we can tell?

Remember, mechanical rules are not literal in a game world. People don't level up and 'choose' which class they take a level in OOTS style. Instead, the rules and classes represent a character mechanically. I didn't have to enlist in Barbarian school or decide to be a Barbarian to be a barbarian. The character could be a soldier in an army with Barbarian levels and the class represents A. the combat training and B. the fact that in combat he is prone to fly into incredibly fury, with or without his conscious approval. People that go into rages don't choose to rage. Although you the player decide when to use that class feature, that doesn't mean the character chooses to.

That the character flies into rages while fighting does not define their alignment. If they are lawful in every other aspect of their life, that they have anger issues and fight with fury does not change their alignment as it has no bearing on how they live their life or their worldview.

Also, there are more than nine philosophies in the world. Not all lawful people think the same, and almost every lawful person has some traits that aren't lawful. Not all lawful people necessarily value self-control as a virtue. Or maybe they think self-control is a good thing as an abstract, but they know that self-control is one virtue they don't posses and so they don't try.

[DeltaEmil]

The Singh Rager from Oriental Adventures (which received some 3.5 update somewhere) is a lawful rage-using prestige class.

[ZamielVanWeber]

The Singh Rager from Oriental Adventures (which received some 3.5 update somewhere) is a lawful rage-using prestige class.

Dragon #318. They is also an errata file for OA although Singh Rager isn't mentioned.

[Flickerdart]

You can also take Half-Orc Paragon 2 and rage while being any alignment you damn well please. Curiously, full-blooded Orc Paragons do not gain this ability.

[heros271]

I.... I am pretty sure there was ACF that gave druid rage. Lawful Neutral druids can exist, right? ^^

[ShurikVch]

I.... I am pretty sure there was ACF that gave druid rage. Lawful Neutral druids can exist, right? ^^Druidic Avenger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druidVariantDruidicAve nger)

Also, Lunar Rogue ACF (Dr#340) may get Rage at 4th level, and not limited in alignment;
Raging Monk (Dr#340) is always Lawful

[SowZ]

You can also take Half-Orc Paragon 2 and rage while being any alignment you damn well please. Curiously, full-blooded Orc Paragons do not gain this ability.

Of course, then I must be both a Half-Orc and take levels in Half-Orc Paragon.

[Thurbane]

There's also a symbiont (Gutworm, FF p.220) that lets you rage all day and all night with no fatigue 4 rounds at a time, and no alignment restrictions (although the rage is at the whim of the CE symbiont).

For extra giggles, combine with the Tainted Raver template (HoH, p.154) for double perma-rage! +8 Str, +8 Con, +4 bonus on Will saves, -4 AC.

[atemu1234]

There's also a symbiont (Gutworm, FF p.220) that lets you rage all day and all night with no fatigue 4 rounds at a time, and no alignment restrictions (although the rage is at the whim of the CE symbiont).

For extra giggles, combine with the Tainted Raver template (HoH, p.154) for double perma-rage! +8 Str, +8 Con, +4 bonus on Will saves, -4 AC.

This does sound like fun. Mind Rape the Symbiont?

[Othniel]

You could always be a Maenad (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/races/maenad) (third party class, but pretty cool).

[Thurbane]

I should point out that Tainted Raver is NPC only, unless your DM house-rules an LA for it. I'd say +2 or +3 would be fair. It's very strong for a Cha based caster.

[Inevitability]

You can also take Half-Orc Paragon 2 and rage while being any alignment you damn well please. Curiously, full-blooded Orc Paragons do not gain this ability.

The half-orc, trying to be orc-ish to the best of his ability, accidentaly orcs a bit too much and reaches levels of orciness normal orcs would never have reached, obviously.

[Duke of Urrel]

Whenever somebody brings up Lawful barbarians, I feel the need to post this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZHoHaAYHq8).

[Chronos]

Badgers and their kin can also rage, though their rules for it are somewhat different. Ordinarily they're always neutral, but an awakened or anthropomorphic one could be any alignment at all.

There's also a bard spell that causes the target to rage.

[ShurikVch]

Badgers and their kin can also rageWolverine (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wolverine.htm) too!
Also, there are feats - Involuntary Rage (Savage Species) and Wolverine's Rage (Complete Divine) - which are working on similar principles

There's also a bard spell that causes the target to rage.Rage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/rage.htm) or Mindless Rage (CAdv/SpC)? Also, IIRR, there are some non-Bard spells which do it too

Whenever somebody brings up Lawful barbarians, I feel the need to post this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZHoHaAYHq8).And don't forget about the Detective Conan the Barbarian! :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin: