Deadly deadly weenies

[Flickerdart]

You step into the next room of the dungeon, and are immediately surrounded by goblins. From their crude weapons and amateurish movements, you assess that they are no threat, and calmly draw your sword to dispose of them. A thousand cuts later, you're bleeding on the ground and wondering how the goblins managed to flank you from above.

---

We all know and love Tucker's Kobolds, but fighting with traps and terrain is hardly sporting. Instead, I'm trying to come up with build elements for weak creatures who do fight fair, and for whom it is actually feasible to challenge stronger opponents who are few in numbers. Not mobs, swarms, or spellcasters - just low-level goblins or kobolds or orcs with swords, who are better together than alone. I'd also prefer to avoid swingy things like "load up on crit multipliers and hope for two natural 20s" because that's just boring. Let's say that each creature should be no more than CR3, ideally 2 or even 1, and should pose a challenge to typical PCs when massed within the guidelines (so 8 CR 2s should be able to threaten a mid-op level 6 party, for instance).

The first thing I thought of was flanking, since it adds a quick and dirty to-hit bonus. The goblins could be Rogue 1/Spirit Wolf Totem Barbarian 1 with an Amulet of Teamwork to gain some damage bonuses on their attacks, mounted on something that's also weak for a +1 bonus for higher ground. Because there are so many of them, a few can be Marshals or Bards who can affect a whole slew of guys with helpful effects simultaneously.

Are there any other feats, classes, or items that would help?

[Ellowryn]

Swarmfighting and Underfoot Combatant immediately come to mind, im sure there are others.

[LoyalPaladin]

You could use the class I made for WeaselGuy. The Kobold Warcharger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19316479&postcount=78).

[Palanan]

Confound the Big Folk, from Races of the Wild, could be another option.

[dysprosium]

Check out this thread on an old classic 1st edition monster: the nilbog (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?422132-Nilbog-Question).

That would definitely be one way to mess with/frustrate the players. The stats link to Pathfinder, but I believe that there were 3.5 stats floating around somewhere (or you can just port those in).

[Segev]

A Warblade or Crusader with carefully-chosen White Raven maneuvers could provide additional bonuses to his allies.

A wand of mirror image passed amongst a group of UMD-capable things could be nasty, though that's admittedly a 4500 gp item (fully charged) and they're burning through charges FAST.

It would require some DM adjudication as to whether obscuring mist forms a sphere or a dome, but positioning a sorcerer at a height such that the mist only extends downwards to the waist of the majority of the party would allow the Small-sized creatures to attack without worrying about concealment while benefitting from it, themselves.

Give them reach weapons as well as normal-reach weapons; have not only flankers, but have those with the reach weapons use Aid Another to increase the AC of the inner-ring of flankers. There are 16 reach-weapon wielders if you have a full surround two ranks deep on a single Medium creature. Each inner-ring flanker can easily get a +4 to either AC or to-hit from the outer-ring using Aid Another, or could gain +2 to each.

Giving them higher dex and Combat Reflexes will enable them all to make numerous AoOs if the PCs try to maneuver amongst them. Good hiding skills can make it inobvious where the threatened spaces even are until the AoOs are provoked and exploited.

A moderate-level goblin necromancer could have 1-HD goblin skeletons or zombies augmented with Destruction Retribution; have them pile around the PCs and, if AoEs go off, do a d6 of damage each to the PCs. If he has Tomb-Tainted Soul (or is undead), he should keep a bevy of them around himself, too; anything that kills them and hurts him will trigger 8d6 of healing for himself.

[lord_khaine]

it is certainly a bit of a challenge.. because to start with AOE spells and effects are going to have a field day.
Even so though, then i do think some leaders with levels in Crusader is the best bet, especially if backed up by a few divine casters for aoe buffs like bless, recitation or prayer, spells that does get more effective the more people you have to affect with them.
Ohh.. and lets not forget a bard either. Im sure some dragonfire inspiration before a wave of throwing spears is going to ruin someones day..

[prufock]

Aid another, aid another, aid another. If you can get 8 guys surrounding a single PC, and they can reliably make a DC 10 attack roll (shouldn't be hard when they're also flanking), that amounts to a +14 to one of the little guys' attack. If they have the Improved Aid feat, that's up to a +28 to hit, provided your DM doesn't limit it below that, another +2 for flanking gives the actual attacker a +30 bonus on top of his to-hit.

Now you just need to get some good sources of extra damage on a full-BAB character for the "leader" who is doing the actual attacking. An initiator class, barbarian, or even fighter are good options here. Power attack with a 2-handed weapon for full BAB (-3 attack, +6 damage), etc.

You could also do a version with 2 actual attackers and 3 aides each, for +14 total to hit. Double chances, but also more chances to miss.

To take even greater advantage of flanking, make one of the aides a marshal with the feat for bonus damage to flanked opponents, and maybe some source of sneak attack w/craven.

[Flickerdart]

Aid another, aid another, aid another. If you can get 8 guys surrounding a single PC, and they can reliably make a DC 10 attack roll (shouldn't be hard when they're also flanking), that amounts to a +14 to one of the little guys' attack. If they have the Improved Aid feat, that's up to a +28 to hit, provided your DM doesn't limit it below that, another +2 for flanking gives the actual attacker a +30 bonus on top of his to-hit.

Now you just need to get some good sources of extra damage on a full-BAB character for the "leader" who is doing the actual attacking. An initiator class, barbarian, or even fighter are good options here. Power attack with a 2-handed weapon for full BAB (-3 attack, +6 damage), etc.

Aid Another is a great option, but my issue with it is that if 7 of the 8 guys are just cheerleading then even PA for full won't make the 8th guy a threat because his damage output is miserable.

[Nibbens]

While not dangerous themselves, Pugwampi (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/fey/gremlins/gremlin-pugwampi)'s can make a great addition to any small deadlyish weenie group.

[Segev]

Aid Another is a great option, but my issue with it is that if 7 of the 8 guys are just cheerleading then even PA for full won't make the 8th guy a threat because his damage output is miserable.

Which is why I recommended a two-layer approach, with an outer ring of reach weapon-wielding people to Aid Another and an inner ring of people to actually deal damage.

[Telonius]

Grease spell followed up by a torch is a classic. Splash weapons for some amount of automatic damage.


I'm not sure if this would work, or if it would be too "terrain"-y, but ... hide in a safe location. Then, Control Flames (psionic power), combined with a patch of Brown Mold. Keep the flame moving around, causing the mold to double in size each round; eventually freeze or suffocate the adventurers.

[Sith_Happens]

the nilbog (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?422132-Nilbog-Question)

How have those things not taken over the world.

[Telonius]

How have those things not taken over the world.

I think most of them were eaten by Grues.

[prufock]

Aid Another is a great option, but my issue with it is that if 7 of the 8 guys are just cheerleading then even PA for full won't make the 8th guy a threat because his damage output is miserable.

What's miserable? A level 6 character would have about 40 hp.

Orc Sneak Attack Fighter 1/Barbarian 1 (raging) with standard strength 17, raging that's 21. One of his buddies is a marshal with master of tactics.
Greatsword 2d6 (average 7) + 7 strength + 2 from the marshal's aura + 10 power attack + 1d6 sneak attack (average 3.5) + 2 craven = 31.5 damage

His buddies are just making sure he doesn't miss. With a smaller race that damage is lower, but 2 good hits should rock a level 6 character pretty hard.

[Sith_Happens]

What's miserable? A level 6 character would have about 40 hp.

Orc Sneak Attack Fighter 1/Barbarian 1 (raging) with standard strength 17, raging that's 21. One of his buddies is a marshal with master of tactics.
Greatsword 2d6 (average 7) + 7 strength + 2 from the marshal's aura + 10 power attack + 1d6 sneak attack (average 3.5) + 2 craven = 31.5 damage

His buddies are just making sure he doesn't miss. With a smaller race that damage is lower, but 2 good hits should rock a level 6 character pretty hard.

You can't Power Attack for more than your base attack bonus.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by prufrock
Orc Sneak Attack Fighter 1/Barbarian 1 (raging) with standard strength 17, raging that's 21. One of his buddies is a marshal with master of tactics.
Greatsword 2d6 (average 7) + 7 strength + 2 from the marshal's aura + 10 power attack + 1d6 sneak attack (average 3.5) + 2 craven = 31.5 damage

Not that I don't like this concept, but if this is a second-level orc, and his first feat is Power Attack, where is he getting Craven from? The SNA fighter loses his bonus feats.

[ShurikVch]

Karmic Strike for everybody?

[Thurbane]

Some cheap equipment items can make a big difference - tanglefoot bags and such. Shax's Haversack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?175203-3-x-Shax-s-Haversack-updated-(Ghostwall-Shellac)) and Bunko's Bargain Basement (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=350.0) have tons of great ideas. 20gp for Aboleth Mucus - though prepare to have players walk if you pull that out more than once.

Warning: anything the monsters use, so can the PCs - prepare to have them go on a buying spree after a few of these encounters.

[Extra Anchovies]

20gp for Aboleth Mucus - though prepare to have players walk if you pull that out more than once.

To be honest, I'd be very tempted to walk if a DM pulled that once - because if they're willing to use that trick, they'd be willing to use others. Make sure your players don't care about character death before using it.

[Thurbane]

To be honest, I'd be very tempted to walk if a DM pulled that once - because if they're willing to use that trick, they'd be willing to use others. Make sure your players don't care about character death before using it.

True - might be better to stick with eggshell grenades.

[atemu1234]

To be honest, I'd be very tempted to walk if a DM pulled that once - because if they're willing to use that trick, they'd be willing to use others. Make sure your players don't care about character death before using it.

The very best traps are surprises. Just don't tell them what it is.

[Venger]

To be honest, I'd be very tempted to walk if a DM pulled that once - because if they're willing to use that trick, they'd be willing to use others. Make sure your players don't care about character death before using it.

I assume that if you're whipping his out that you're playing a hack n slash oneshot meat grinder game anyway, so it probably wouldn't matter, but yes, as always, ask your players first. it's no fun if people aren't playing the same game.


True - might be better to stick with eggshell grenades.

>better

better for the enemies, anyway.

ditherbombs. ditherbombs everywhere. tread carefully.

[mabriss lethe]

Give a few of them things like nets and lassos to quickly debuff PCs. Maybe make liberal use of Blister Oil, or level appropriate poisons.

[Extra Anchovies]

Give a few of them things like nets and lassos to quickly debuff PCs. Maybe make liberal use of Blister Oil, or level appropriate poisons.

Agreed. A common thing in fiction (especially film) is the hero only losing to mooks when the mooks A) have a massive numerical advantage and B) they have some means of reducing the hero's mobility, whether it's the use of lassos/nets/bolas or just the mooks grabbing the hero's ankles.

[Dimers]

If there's a 3rd-level druid or spirit shaman among the weenies, they can spend one action to let all their buddies within twenty feet each make an attack: Mass Snake's Swiftness.

I'm also a big fan of wolves' ability to trip on any hit. If that succeeds, they all get +4 to later attacks, the PC gets -4 to hit them, and the PC provokes for standing up. They're CR1 and they work well thematically with the aforementioned druid.

A wilder can make ranged touch attacks (crystal shard) or melee touch attacks (dissipating touch) for 2d6 a pop at 1st level, with only a 5% chance of becoming useless as a result. Add in a level of rogue or sneak-attack fighter for another d6 in appropriate circumstances. A few 2d6 or 3d6 touch attacks in a row will get your players' attention.

Matter agitation is a great bang-for-your-buck psi power too, though it takes longer to ramp up. If the psi-weenies can get into casting range without being seen, the PCs might not even figure out what's going on until they're each taking 3d6 or 4d6 per round from a single power point's expenditure.


Give a few of them things like nets and lassos to quickly debuff PCs.

Entangling pole and grasping pole from the Book Of Exalted Deeds would be nice on an orc.

More edit: if there are two bard weenies, one can use a mandolin and the other use a drum/horn to give an extra +1 to both attack and damage with inspire courage. And if it matters, a third bard weenie of at least level 2 could use a fiddle for +3 or more morale bonus to saves against charm and fear.

[Uncle Pine]

Do skiurids qualify as weenies?

[prufock]

Not that I don't like this concept, but if this is a second-level orc, and his first feat is Power Attack, where is he getting Craven from? The SNA fighter loses his bonus feats.
Give him a flaw to gain an extra feat at first level. Take SNA fighter first, so you qualify for Craven at level 1.


You can't Power Attack for more than your base attack bonus.
Right you are. Subtract 6 from that damage total.

It's still a viable threat, in my opinion. I know criteria for what counts as good damage varies, but an enemy that can take you down in 2 hits qualifies in my mind.

[Karl Aegis]

A goblin warband (10-24 with worg mounts) isn't that hard to equip and can certainly cause a party wipe into the mid levels. Just give them 10-20 javelins, a sling with 50 bullets, a long spear, leather armor and a net each. Have the worgs circle strafe around the party while the goblins shoot bullets and throw javelins at the party. If one of the melee types breaks off from the rest of the party worgs move fast enough to outpace them (using the run action if they have to) while the rest of the goblins pepper him with javelins and bullets. When the party is severely weakened, out of spells and out of breath the worgs actually charge into melee while the goblins use their longspears for support. If you really think the battle will last quite a while, have 1/4 of the worgs and goblins rest and resupply off the battlefield every 15 minutes. The longspear and the leather armor are the only things that will take a goblin tribe any time at all to make, so they should have plenty of sling bullets and javelins ready for their warband.

[Flickerdart]

If there's a 3rd-level druid or spirit shaman among the weenies, they can spend one action to let all their buddies within twenty feet each make an attack: Mass Snake's Swiftness.
Ooh, I like that very much - a druid has his wolf pack surround the PCs and then whips that out.