Offering more class choices

[Stuvius]

Good Day Playgrounders!
My gaming group uses rotating DMs. As we are all newer DMs we have stuck to Core up until this point in order to keep things a bit on the less complicated side as we learn. Having completed several campaigns we are feeling a bit more confident and would like to expand the resources used during our game. Specifically, we would like to open up the selections available for additional PC classes. We still want to pace ourselves and I was hoping the forum could recommend some resources to start with. Thanks!

[Nerdguy88]

Any of the Complete books are great.

Complete Warrior
Complete Adventurer
Complete Scoundrel
Complete Divine
Complete Arcane.

All of them add a lot of new PrCs and feats. If you are just wanting new standard classes you might look into the players handbook 2.

[nintendoh]

I am currently experiencing that same problem. So what works for me is including campaign books as opposed to adding the complete series where you would have to learn whole new systems. Go through and run an elder evil campaign and while doing so learn what works in that book. On the other hand you could add complete warrior and figure out all the new classes, feats, and mechanics for that. I just find it easier to learn while playing the game. This is assuming your not using DMG 2. If you arent start there.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Seconding the Completes. Tome of Battle is really nice, especially if your martials are lagging behind your casters, but that does involve a bunch of new mechanics. Psionics are pretty cool, too, but that's even more mechanics. On the other hand, if you're comfortable with casters, a high-psionics campaign is probably doable.

[Sith_Happens]

I say open the floodgates. Any book you have between the however-many of you, that book is allowed.

[OldTrees1]

Well I have full confidence you could handle allowing almost everything.

However, you want to pace yourself and so I would need a bit more information to give a helpful answer. What kind of characters do your players and yourself like to play? Also what parts do they like about their current options? For example, the person that likes a mage for their spells has a different preference than the person that likes a mage for the class features. The first I would point to diverse spell lists(like Archivist) and the second I would point to caster classes with lots of class features(like Dread Necromancer). Someone that likes Fighter feats(like Improved Trip or Combat Reflexes) might like the Martial Rogue but if they like doing a different attack every round they might like Tome of Battle.

[Warrnan]

I would allow the completes, phb2, dmg2, spell compendium, tome of battle and Magic item compendium.
These really form the "core" of what d&d 3.5 is.

There are many things to cherry pick from dungeonscape for example includes two of the most important alternative class features for skill monkey types!

Rangers are always cool but in core only you'd still need a rogue to cover traps and locks. However in dungeonscape they get the ability to trapsmith if they give up the track feat (which you can still take normally if you want.)

Rogues get penetrating strike from the same book. You give up trap sense, a weak ability, and gain the ability to do half damage against enemies normally immune to undead. (Undead, constructs, plants, elementals, and many more.) this makes a rogue viable long term at higher level.

Complete adventurer, complete arcane and book of exalted deeds make the bard go from mediocre to first class buffer.

I would recommend just approving things as they come up based on your group's preference and needs. That rogue ability made one of my friends go from "I hate Dnd" to "this is really fun." In the long run dnd is supposed to be a fun adventure game. Focus on that. :)

[Aleolus]

I will agree with phb2 and the completes. Those are wonderful places to start if you don't want to stray too far from the core magic system.

However, if you want to try a new system out, I would recommend Magic of Incarnum. It takes a while to learn, but once you get the hang of it it is a very easy system

[atemu1234]

I say open the floodgates. Any book you have between the however-many of you, that book is allowed.

I do this. It works out well.

[JW86]

The Complete books are very good.

A couple of my favourites:

Expanded Psionics Handbook - Psionics is a system I find very fun. PCs using the power of their mind rather than arcane study to manifest interesting effects in the world.

Tome of Battle - Another new system, geared for melee combat. Add some Wuxia/Anime themed stuff, blade magic and martial maneuvers to make melee combat more interesting, varied and powerful.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I would avoid Tome of Magic and Magic of Incarnum for now. Tome of Magic has 1 good class, one mediocre class, and one broken beyond function class. Magic of Incarnum has two well designed, solid, classes and one extremely poorly designed class but balances this out with some truly horrendous organization. It will be worth your time to learn, but it takes a disproportionate amount of time to use, so I would recommend you avoid letting it in in the early flood.

[NomGarret]

What do you and your players feel are missing?

PHB2 and the Complete series are certainly a good next step, particularly if you want to mix in new feats, spells, and PrCs as much as new classes.

[Curmudgeon]

The necessary time expenditure to learn new subsystems makes me recommend you stay away (at least initially) from books like Magic of Incarnum, Expanded Psionics Handbook, Tome of Battle, & c. The Completes, Player's Handbook II, Races of ... books and the like are good bets.

[Medic!]

Slightly off topic (because the nail's been hit on the head pretty squarely already) how would your group react to opening up new sources in-game? I did this with out group the first time we decided to do an Epic level game, the campaign started out with a veteran crew delving into a lost vault to uncover ancient power contained within a fabled tome to foil the unstoppable bad-guy-threat-thing...tl;dr they had to go on a quest and find the Epic Level Handbook in-character to get to use it at the table. Your guys could uncover the lost writings of a famous general (Complete Warrior) or the lost spellbook of Phistancopyrightus (Complete Arcane/Mage) or the lost memoirs compiled by the last 400 years of Thieves' Guild leaders (Complete Scoundrel) etc etc etc

[T.G. Oskar]

Well I have full confidence you could handle allowing almost everything.

However, you want to pace yourself and so I would need a bit more information to give a helpful answer. What kind of characters do your players and yourself like to play? Also what parts do they like about their current options? For example, the person that likes a mage for their spells has a different preference than the person that likes a mage for the class features. The first I would point to diverse spell lists(like Archivist) and the second I would point to caster classes with lots of class features(like Dread Necromancer). Someone that likes Fighter feats(like Improved Trip or Combat Reflexes) might like the Martial Rogue but if they like doing a different attack every round they might like Tome of Battle.

Seconding this idea. A good rule of thumb is "what do your gaming group feel about the Monk?" If they feel it's too powerful, then introducing the Warlock (pretty balanced, a bit on the low end, but having multiple at-will abilities, including Eldritch Blast with its OMGWTFBBQ10d6 damage!), and the classes in Tome of Battle (high optimization floor = they're hard to build wrong, but usually more powerful at low levels than other classes). Don't take me wrong - ToB is a really great supplement, but it's divisive for a reason (beyond "weeaboo fightan magick!")

Players might want to diversify their alternatives. A "classic 4" kind of party (BSF, sneaky Rogue, blaster Wizard/Sorcerer, nannybot Cleric) might want to observe the different possibilities. BSFs won't get much from a different class; Warblade is exactly what they'd want, but in the opposite way (no Big Stupid Fighter, but Big and Smart Fighter, due to using Intelligence for a lot of stuff); a skillmonkey might like the Factotum or, barring that, the Scout or Ninja. The blaster Wizard might find the Warmage interesting, while the nannybot might find a Water Shugenja, a Favored Soul or...a Healer...an alternative.

That doesn't have to be the case, though. Someone who favors necromancy? Dread Necromancer is right up their alley. More of an Enchanter/Illusionist, but gets to Arcane Trickster for the extra skills? Beguiler. There are several other alternatives, but pander to the group's interests, while giving them the option of choosing levels of the PHB classes if they want to. Barring a few outliers (Archivist, Eberron's Artificer, Complete Psionic's Erudite with a specific ACF that turns spells into psionic powers), very few of the non-Core classes are really broken; most classes built towards the end of 3.5's run are pretty balanced (Tome of Magic being a clear exception, where one class is balanced and cool, the other is cool but complex to play, and the other is pretty much unplayable and will make you lose your ability to taste ice cream). Early 3.5 classes are often much weaker than their late-game counterparts, in fact, barring Expanded Psionics Handbook which has almost the same degree of balance as Core material.

[GreatDane]

If you want to pace yourselves and are mainly looking for class options, I definitely recommend the Player's Handbook II. It has three solid base classes, plus alternative class features for all of the core classes. It also has a good selection of fun/interesting fests and spells.

If you want a bit more, I'd recommend Complete Warrior for three more base classes and more prestige classes than you can shake a stick at.

[NomGarret]

For some alternate advice, here is where I would NOT start.

Dragon Magic. Not that it's bad, mind you, but it is a later-run book that adds options to a lot of other supplements. On a per-option basis, you will likely get very little use out of this book at this point.

Next up is BoED/BoVD, heroes of horror/battle, and the environmental books. Again on an per-option basis, you'll get relatively little use out of these unless your campaigns are built around that theme.

[Darrin]

Dragon Magic. Not that it's bad, mind you, but it is a later-run book that adds options to a lot of other supplements. On a per-option basis, you will likely get very little use out of this book at this point.

I understand your point, but I think I'd put an exception in there for Dragonfire Adept, which is a much more playable take on the "I wanna be a dragon!" concept.

But in general, I'd probably start small, and try to fill the niches that Core doesn't cover very well first:

Warlock (Complete Adventurer Arcane): Blaster/ranged striker/super-spandex.
Duskblade (PHBII): Gish-in-a-can.
Dragonfire Adept (Dragon Magic): Splasher/support.

After that, if the group has gotten their toes wet on the whole Linear/Quadratic thing and the Tier System, I'd try easing them into Tome of Battle:

Crusader: Pick-up truck.
Warblade: Camaro.
Swordsage: Custom hot-rod.

[Aleolus]

Warlock is from Complete Arcane, not Adventurer. CAd has Scout, Ninja and Spellthief base classes in it.

[Andezzar]

Rogues get penetrating strike from the same book. You give up trap sense, a weak ability, and gain the ability to do half damage against enemies normally immune to undead. (Undead, constructs, plants, elementals, and many more.) this makes a rogue viable long term at higher level. If you go for Penetrating Strike, be sure to get it from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, or houserule the one in Dungeonscape. That is the only way to ensure that the damage you do is actually sneak attack damage (and thus benefiting from everything else that triggers on a sneak attack).


Crusader: Pick-up truck.
Warblade: Camaro.
Swordsage: Custom hot-rod.For those who do not get the car references:
Crusader: What the Paladin should have been.
Swordsage: What the Monk should have been (especially with the unarmed variant).
Warblade: What the fighter should have been.