What level for a Wyvern Mount?

[GiantOctopodes]

So in our nautically themed campaign, my halfling rogue eventually wants a Wyvern as a mount. I mean, it has it all- it flies, it poisons, poison can be harvested from it, it's just chock full of win on every level. I can imagine no mount I'd rather have.

That being said, what level would you allow a Wyvern Mount? It's a CR6 creature, powerful poison can be harvested from it, it's intelligent and thus capable of being independent, etc. All the reasons I love it are all the reasons it would cause major balance issues at too low of levels.

Beyond that, there is the question of, if I were to take the route of raising one from an egg, how old do you think is reasonable for a Wyvern to be before it's at least medium, and thus capable of serving as a mount, even if it's not fully grown yet? As a small halfling, I'm fine with a Wyvernling, or whatever you call a young Wyvern, as a mount, and I think the reduced stats that would go along with such a thing would make it more likely to be balanced at lower levels (I could even say the poison is not as potent as a fully grown wyvern, acting as giant serpent venom). That also has the advantage of making it so it's not this sudden transition from nothing at all to full fledged wyvern.

Thoughts?

[Ninja_Prawn]

I'm fine with a Wyvernling, or whatever you call a young Wyvern


Baldur's Gate went with 'Baby Wyvern'.

The appropriate level is hard to gauge. I would argue that you shouldn't get a CR6 wyvern until such a time as that wyvern does not make a significant contribution to combats... maybe around level 12 or 13? If you scale it down to baby-sized though, all bets are off until you determine the stats.

Alternatively, you could go with 'you don't get to control a wyvern until such a time as fighting one single-handed isn't deadly'. Which is level 11, per the DMG encounter difficulty table.

Be aware, a wyvern can probably carry 4 or 5 PCs without being significantly encumbered (its carrying capacity is 570lbs, so it might be tight if you've got half-orcs in full plate). So that makes overland travel kind of simple. Unless it refuses to help, but wyverns aren't particularly smart, so that seems farfetched.

[GiantOctopodes]

ok, going off of the transition from a Young Red Dragon to a Red Dragon Wyrmling, I've determined what I think are reasonable stats for the Wyvernling


Wyvernling:
Medium Dragon, unaligned

AC 12 (Natural Armor)
Hit Points 45 (7d10 + 7)
Speed 10 ft, fly 60 ft

Str 15 (+2) Dex 10 (+0) Con 12 (+1) Int 3 (-4) Wis 12 (+1) Cha 4 (-3)

Skills Perception +3
Senses Darkvision 30 ft, passive Perception 13
Languages -
Challenge (1?)

Actions
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft, one creature
Hit: 5 (1d6+2) piercing damage

Stinger. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft, one creature.
Hit: 5 (1d6+2) piercing damage. The target must make a DC 11 Constitution saving throw, taking 10 (3d6) poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.

Can anyone help me out in terms of determining CR? More importantly, does this seem reasonable? Did I nerf it too much? I know a flying mount with poison, regardless of anything else, is fantastic for me so I'm not too worried about the combat stats. The drop in Int is actually a buff, since then it qualifies for Awaken, so in the long run I can have a more reasonably intelligent mount, but it's also in line with the int drop that the aforementioned wyrmling experiences, so I feel it's justified. With these stats, what's a reasonable level range for this to be introduced?

edit: in terms of the overland travel bit, we're running a nautical campaign on an archipelago, so overland travel isn't really a thing for us so much. We sail where we will, and trips inland are a few day's excursions at most. Offering a means to reduce that further wouldn't be too much different from Wind Walk, with a greatly reduced speed, for fewer targets, and without the damage resistance, so I feel that aspect of it won't be a significant issue should the wyvern become full sized around the 11-12 level range.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Wyvernling:
Medium Dragon, unaligned

AC 12 (Natural Armor)
Hit Points 45 (7d10 + 7)
Speed 10 ft, fly 60 ft

Str 15 (+2) Dex 10 (+0) Con 12 (+1) Int 3 (-4) Wis 12 (+1) Cha 4 (-3)

Skills Perception +3
Senses Darkvision 30 ft, passive Perception 13
Languages -
Challenge (1?)

Actions
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft, one creature
Hit: 5 (1d6+2) piercing damage

Stinger. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft, one creature.
Hit: 5 (1d6+2) piercing damage. The target must make a DC 11 Constitution saving throw, taking 10 (3d6) poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.

Can anyone help me out in terms of determining CR?

Defensive CR: 1/4
Offensive CR: 2
Average CR: 1 (rounded)
Modifiers: None
Final CR: 1

Looks fine. I would say this is suitable from 3rd level onward.

[darkscizor]

ok, going off of the transition from a Young Red Dragon to a Red Dragon Wyrmling, I've determined what I think are reasonable stats for the Wyvernling


Wyvernling:
Medium Dragon, unaligned

AC 12 (Natural Armor)
Hit Points 45 (7d10 + 7)
Speed 10 ft, fly 60 ft

Str 15 (+2) Dex 10 (+0) Con 12 (+1) Int 3 (-4) Wis 12 (+1) Cha 4 (-3)

Skills Perception +3
Senses Darkvision 30 ft, passive Perception 13
Languages -
Challenge (1?)

Actions
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft, one creature
Hit: 5 (1d6+2) piercing damage

Stinger. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft, one creature.
Hit: 5 (1d6+2) piercing damage. The target must make a DC 11 Constitution saving throw, taking 10 (3d6) poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.

Can anyone help me out in terms of determining CR? More importantly, does this seem reasonable? Did I nerf it too much? I know a flying mount with poison, regardless of anything else, is fantastic for me so I'm not too worried about the combat stats. The drop in Int is actually a buff, since then it qualifies for Awaken, so in the long run I can have a more reasonably intelligent mount, but it's also in line with the int drop that the aforementioned wyrmling experiences, so I feel it's justified. With these stats, what's a reasonable level range for this to be introduced?

edit: in terms of the overland travel bit, we're running a nautical campaign on an archipelago, so overland travel isn't really a thing for us so much. We sail where we will, and trips inland are a few day's excursions at most. Offering a means to reduce that further wouldn't be too much different from Wind Walk, with a greatly reduced speed, for fewer targets, and without the damage resistance, so I feel that aspect of it won't be a significant issue should the wyvern become full sized around the 11-12 level range.



The HP seems a bit much (6 HD, or 6d8+6=33, should be enough). And I'd personally say CR 2, to be safe. You also had the wrong HD (d8 for a medium creature) and Perception labeled as a 13, when it has a WIS +1 and +3 Perception. Different speeds might help too.

With the fixes and changes I gave, it comes out to the following:


Wyvernling:
Medium Dragon, unaligned

AC 12 (Natural Armor)
Hit Points 33 (6d8+6)
Speed 15 ft, fly 45 ft

Str 15 (+2) Dex 10 (+0) Con 12 (+1) Int 3 (-4) Wis 12 (+1) Cha 4 (-3)

Skills Perception +3
Senses Darkvision 30 ft, passive Perception 14
Languages -
Challenge 2

Actions
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft, one creature
Hit: 5 (1d6+2) piercing damage

Stinger. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft, one creature.
Hit: 5 (1d6+2) piercing damage. The target must make a DC 11 Constitution saving throw, taking 10 (3d6) poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.



A few minor changes.

[Ninja_Prawn]

You also had ...Perception labeled as a 13, when it has a WIS +1 and +3 Perception. Different speeds might help too.


Actually, Passive Perception 13 is correct. Monster stat blocks list the modifier for an Ability (Skill) check.

The HD is agree with; dropping them to d8s has no effect on the 'official' CR, which I still peg at 1.

[PoeticDwarf]

So in our nautically themed campaign, my halfling rogue eventually wants a Wyvern as a mount. I mean, it has it all- it flies, it poisons, poison can be harvested from it, it's just chock full of win on every level. I can imagine no mount I'd rather have.

That being said, what level would you allow a Wyvern Mount? It's a CR6 creature, powerful poison can be harvested from it, it's intelligent and thus capable of being independent, etc. All the reasons I love it are all the reasons it would cause major balance issues at too low of levels.

Beyond that, there is the question of, if I were to take the route of raising one from an egg, how old do you think is reasonable for a Wyvern to be before it's at least medium, and thus capable of serving as a mount, even if it's not fully grown yet? As a small halfling, I'm fine with a Wyvernling, or whatever you call a young Wyvern, as a mount, and I think the reduced stats that would go along with such a thing would make it more likely to be balanced at lower levels (I could even say the poison is not as potent as a fully grown wyvern, acting as giant serpent venom). That also has the advantage of making it so it's not this sudden transition from nothing at all to full fledged wyvern.

Thoughts?

If you allow it, not before lv. 15.
It would still make the party envious. I would give it him at lv. 17. Or you can homebrew a 'Blue Wyvern' or something with CR 3 and give it him at lv. 13 or before.

[Giant2005]

When it comes to getting your hand on a non-class based mount, it should come at a later level than others would gain the same feature through their class. A conservative number for this would be 2 levels later than class based numbers (But even then, that feels like a bit of a rip-off for someone that actually invested in the ability rather than being given it).
Using that number of +2 levels, I'd say that you would have to be level 20 before a full-fledged Wyvern became available (Druid can Wildshape into CR 6 at 18, 18 +2 = 2).
For the Baby Wyvern being thrown around in the thread, by those same standards level 10 would be the minimum (Druids can turn into a flying creature at level 8, 8 + 2 = 10).

Of course I just plucked that 2 level difference thing out of nowhere. You may think that only a 1 level delay is reasonable, or you might think that a 2 level delay isn't enough to be considered reasonable. Just consider what other people are giving up for abilities like the one you want for free and decide what you think is fair (Or better yet, think of something you can sacrifice for the perk that is comparable to what others must give up).

[Sindeloke]

Neither paladin nor ranger give up anything for a mount, really. The paladin spends a spell slot on the 1st of March and if he's careful, he still has it on the 28th of February next year. He can freely summon and dismiss it as a class feature, sure, which is presumably accounted for in the rest of the paladin kit, but Octopodes won't have that perk.

Ranger, on the other hand, gives up an entire subclass for her companion, but a companion is not a mount. Apart from being weirdly limited in its behavior whereas mounts are not, a companion also has around 10x the hitpoints, better attack and damage, and better AC than the same creature at the same CR would have as a mount, all of which Octopodes will also not be getting from the wyvern.

Now, the flying is definitely a concern. Especially in a seafaring campaign where open air is almost never going to be unavailable. On the other hand, if it didn't have flight, it would at least need a swim speed or it'd be completely useless, so that's a concern too.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I think it's best to think of this not as a 'feature', but as an NPC hireling. The wyvern is another member of the party (in terms of action economy, total HP, damage output and battlefield control), and shouldn't be allowed to join until its contribution is small (like a 1/8 CR guard would be in a level 1 party).

The fact the one PC can ride it isn't really a problem - players have plenty of options for getting flight.

And as the OP says, a wyvern is a big, wild beast that could serve as an adventure hook.

[DDogwood]

I have to admit, I don't get why the PC shouldn't be allowed to get a pet Wyvern until a certain level. Sure, a Wyvern is powerful in combat, but the game isn't all about combat. The advantages such a mount would provide (deadly in combat, can fly, provides a steady source of poison) would be more than offset by the logistical problems it would introduce (how do you get it into dungeons, how do you feed it, how do you put it in a stable without it eating everyone's horses, etc.). Every bad guy you meet would have plans to steal your tamed Wyvern!

Really, it sounds like a walking adventure hook to me. I would say that the PC should be allowed to get a pet Wyvern as soon as he can figure out how to find an egg or a baby, get it someplace safe, raise it, feed it, and train it. There's a good possibility the PC will be quite high level before the Wyvern is usable as a mount, but that shouldn't be an arbitrary decision by the DM - it should be based on the cleverness and persistence of the player.

If the other PCs are jealous of something that a PC has earned through clever play, then the game group has a problem that can't be solved by "game balance". Ideally, the time and energy that this PC spends finding and training his Wyvern is time that the other PCs are spending to build fortresses, found temples and magic schools, forge magic weapons, and so on.

[PotatoGolem]

I'm gonna have to disagree with you, Dogwood. The wyvern is essentially treasure. It's DM fiat either way. Either the DM says there's wyvern eggs where you are or not. Once you get them, it's DM fiat on how long the thing takes to be useable. It's not really "clever play" to say to the DM that you want a wyvern egg and you want it to be rideable in the adventure timeframe. Either the DM gives you wyverns that grow up super fast, he gives you a ton of downtime, or he shoots you down. This is 100% a DM fiat decision, so the DM should balance it with the magic items and rewards he gives the other players. It's a cool idea, and I'd work with a player who really wanted it to find a workable solution, but I don't think it's any more clever play than asking for a particular magic item.

[GiantOctopodes]

ok, thanks for the replies so far everyone! Darkscizor good catch on the HD size, I had missed that. It was also bothering me that the 'template' I was working from was -4 Cha but I was only doing -2 (since I don't want under 4 cha), looking at the Green Dragon instead of the red, which is a better fit anyway due to poison, I see that they do -2 Cha, -2 Wis, everything else is about the same. They also have steeper reductions on the number of HD, so your 6 vs 7 seems appropriate. Taking that into account I get the following:

Wyvernling:
Medium Dragon, unaligned

AC 12 (Natural Armor)
Hit Points 33 (6d8 + 6)
Speed 10 ft, fly 60 ft

Str 15 (+2) Dex 10 (+0) Con 12 (+1) Int 3 (-4) Wis 10 (+0) Cha 4 (-3)

Skills Perception +2
Senses Darkvision 30 ft, passive Perception 12
Languages -
Challenge (1)

Actions
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft, one creature
Hit: 5 (1d6+2) piercing damage

Stinger. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft, one creature.
Hit: 5 (1d6+2) piercing damage. The target must make a DC 11 Constitution saving throw, taking 10 (3d6) poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.

At this point it's squarely a CR 1 creature. The Green Dragon Wyrmling is a CR2 creature, but it has more than twice the effective HP (thanks to immunities), an AC of 17, and (though they don't affect CR directly, strangely) extra senses (Blindsight) and extra movement types (swim speed). The Wyvernling, by comparison, is a CR 1/8 creature defensively, and barely qualifies as a CR2 creature offensively (one lower expected damage per round and it would be CR1). I also don't want to mess with the movement speeds because all dragons I've looked at have fly speeds of 80ft when large (just like Wyverns) and that drops to 60' for medium Wyrmlings, so I want to be consistent with that. I'm ok with him barely crawling along when on the ground, they're super slow when fully grown and we all know how awkward of movers younger animals can be.

In terms of handling it like treasure, comparing it to class features, etc, I agree, it's DM fiat. I figure I'll make it as easy as possible for him to say yes, then ask him what he wants. I agree this is a (flying) plot hook all over the place, especially since they're renowned for their aggressive tendencies and we have a Druid who absolutely will *never* allow it to be in a cage, so I anticipate many inadvertently wounded crew and issues there, not to mention balancing his needs for independence, as he is a sentient creature, with the uses I can have for him in terms of milking poison, using him as a mount, etc. It should be very interesting, and very complicated, and my DM is always well within his rights to say he doesn't want to deal with it, and I just don't find any Wyverns eggs anywhere. If he wants me to have to spend gold on it, trade a magic item for it, or whatever else, that's fine too. Whatever it takes, in my opinion it's worth it.

Edit: Out of curiosity, what valuation would people place on a Wyvern Egg, compared to other available magic items, should they be able to be bought? I'd compare it to an Ebony Fly (more dangerous, both to you and your foes, in exchange for far less obedient and convenient) and put it in the "Rare" category, with a valuation somewhere between 3,000 GP and 5,000 GP, does this seem reasonable?

[Ninja_Prawn]

Edit: Out of curiosity, what valuation would people place on a Wyvern Egg, compared to other available magic items, should they be able to be bought? I'd compare it to an Ebony Fly (more dangerous, both to you and your foes, in exchange for far less obedient and convenient) and put it in the "Rare" category, with a valuation somewhere between 3,000 GP and 5,000 GP, does this seem reasonable?

Fiendishly good question. Wyvern eggs are obviously valuable and difficult to acquire. On the other hand, goblins breed them, so that should keep the prices down. I might put it at 10,000gp... but who really knows?

[darkscizor]

I'd put a dragon egg's price at 3500gp, but from a masked dealer in some alley in a city. You should stress that with a shady item seller, comes shady items- maybe the wyvvern egg isn't a wyvvern egg at all. So the deal is worth a lot more than 3500gp for a wyvvern to the players-it may be 3500gp for an empty shell, and although you give the wyvvern to the players in the end, they can't be sure of that. The local authorities probably won't approve of draconic mystery eggs being sold in town, either.

[DDogwood]

I'm gonna have to disagree with you, Dogwood. The wyvern is essentially treasure. It's DM fiat either way. Either the DM says there's wyvern eggs where you are or not. Once you get them, it's DM fiat on how long the thing takes to be useable. It's not really "clever play" to say to the DM that you want a wyvern egg and you want it to be rideable in the adventure timeframe. Either the DM gives you wyverns that grow up super fast, he gives you a ton of downtime, or he shoots you down. This is 100% a DM fiat decision, so the DM should balance it with the magic items and rewards he gives the other players. It's a cool idea, and I'd work with a player who really wanted it to find a workable solution, but I don't think it's any more clever play than asking for a particular magic item.

Agree to disagree, then. I mean, EVERYTHING is D&D is DM fiat, if you look at it that way. Even being allowed to play a particular race or class is ultimately up to the DM. In my opinion, if the DM is deciding what stuff the PCs can and can't achieve, he/she is probably railroading the campaign and needs to change his/her DMing style.

Here's my take on it:

Are there wyverns in the game world? If so, where do they live? The DM shouldn't make the decision as to whether the PCs want to go there. There should be a reasonable chance of the PCs being able to find a wyvern and track it back to its lair. Then there should be a reasonable chance that there are eggs in the nest. After that, it's just a question of time frame and resources required for hatching, feeding, raising, and training the creature.

The only time DM fiat comes into it is deciding whether there are wyverns at all in the game world, and deciding what the odds or challenges are on each particular step of the quest.

Likewise, if a PC is looking for a specific magic item, a good DM will figure out where such an item would be, and then figure out what rumors and legends exist about the item. From that point on, it's up to the PCs to pursue the adventure and overcome the challenges.

I suppose some DMs like to run "adventure path" style campaigns where there is no room for PCs to pursue their individual goals, but IMO this is a crappy way to run a campaign unless the players aren't interested in taking the initiative to pursue adventures.

I've played in campaigns where I, or other players, have told the DM "We would like to do X," and the DM has said "You can't do X because it doesn't fit with my story."

I've stuck with those campaigns anyway, because I don't want to ruin anyone's fun, but in hindsight those games sucked.