Incarnum, Eberron, and Dolurrh

[Warlocknthewind]

I loves me some Incarnum. When attempting to reflesh C&C and MFoD in Eberron, with an Incarnum twist, I came across a bit of an impass.

Incarnum is fueled by the flow of souls-stuff in the universe. In the world if Eberron, all souls who don't find some other means to exist after death end up on Dolurrh, the Grey Malaise of the Dead to slowly lose their identity and memories. The necessary sort of cosmic reinecarnation-y flowy soul stuff is corked/dammed (damned). How can you access the ancient warriors warrior-ness when they ethereally evaporated centuries ago?

I guess what I am saying is that current fluff is incompatible with Eberron. and I am curious as to what other playgrounders may think of it, or ideas they used themselves.

I have a skeletal idea with planar essence, but it fits about as well as the original.

Speculation?

[Urpriest]

I thought the idea with Incarnum was that they were tapping into pre-incarnate souls, not the souls of the dead.

[Extra Anchovies]

C&C and MFoD

It would be nice if you could explain what these are.

[Warlocknthewind]

Ooh, Cantrips & Crystals by Silverclawshift, and Many Facets of Darkness by Kol Korran.

Magic bugs taken into a vast number to create all encompassing hive mind to over world by mysterious organization beginning in a warehouse is the general premise.

I was going to use the the Hive mind rules in Book of Vile Darkness compined with Souljar & Wish as the ingredients to the ritual near the climax.

Featuring many aspects from Pact Magic and Incarnum , if u can find a good explination for its power source. Players guide to Eberron places the Races of Mishtai (Skarn & Rilkan) on an island off Xen'drik, and Shifter Totemists in Eldeen but doesn't pin anything but that down.

I am unsure how you could draw from preincarnate souls, undeveleoped as they are, unless there is a reincarnation system in place to have mature souls, or some sort of time warp system involving the shadow Plane I don't want to expose my world to.

On a side not, I could fluff vestiges as souls who lost all essential, or stagnated or some such that kept them from Dolurrh.

[Psyren]

Incarnum is fueled by the flow of souls-stuff in the universe. In the world if Eberron, all souls who don't find some other means to exist after death end up on Dolurrh, the Grey Malaise of the Dead to slowly lose their identity and memories. The necessary sort of cosmic reinecarnation-y flowy soul stuff is corked/dammed (damned). How can you access the ancient warriors warrior-ness when they ethereally evaporated centuries ago?

Dolurrh eats souls, yeah, but Irian is constantly making more. That's where Incarnum comes from in Eberron, and the fact that a specific warrior's identity and memories fades over time doesn't mean that the very concept of a warrior itself ceases to exist. Again, Irian is always making more. So it's that soulstuff that Eberron Incarnum users are shaping.

[Venger]

I thought the idea with Incarnum was that they were tapping into pre-incarnate souls, not the souls of the dead.

Yes and no.

Normal incarnum also draws from souls that are still extant, wherever they are, even if they are alive. If you want to shape the theft gloves, you might borrow soul energy from some of the greatest living thieves.

"Precarnum" draws from unborn souls, and I'll just leave it at that.

necrocarnum draws exclusively from dead souls.

I don't really see why you'd need to refluff anything. even if there aren't any gods in eberron, you can still live and die there. if you say that people lose their superpowers instantly upon punching in to the elysian fields, then just say incarnates draw exclusively from living people, kind of like binders or totemists.

[CockroachTeaParty]

I thought that necrocarnum was actively torturing soul energy, living, prenatal, or dead.

[Venger]

I thought that necrocarnum was actively torturing soul energy, living, prenatal, or dead.

not... exactly.

all MoI has to say on the issue is that you get power "from the torture of good souls. Indeed, the necrocarnate subjects pure souls to agony and torment far beyond the limits possible in mortal life, draining them of their very essence in pursuit of her hideous power."

but it doesn't explain what the hell any of this means, so it's easy enough to drop if you're refluffing.

[Psyren]

not... exactly.

all MoI has to say on the issue is that you get power "from the torture of good souls. Indeed, the necrocarnate subjects pure souls to agony and torment far beyond the limits possible in mortal life, draining them of their very essence in pursuit of her hideous power."

but it doesn't explain what the hell any of this means, so it's easy enough to drop if you're refluffing.

Given that something has to exist/be capable of feeling in order to be tortured, it's safe to say that you are torturing living souls to power necrocarnum.

Vivicarnate fixes that easily of course.

[Venger]

Given that something has to exist/be capable of feeling in order to be tortured, it's safe to say that you are torturing living souls to power necrocarnum.

Vivicarnate fixes that easily of course.

while that may have easily been the intention at one point during the design process for necrocarnate, it's not actually true.

if you kill some guy, his soul passes on beyond the veil normally. necrocarnate doesn't put him on hold in any material fashion, even if you harvest his essentia, so whatever you're fueling yourself on, it's not actually his soul, but some kind of placebo, like eberron's divine casters.

ah yes, vivicarnate, MoI's very own avenger. wouldn't want your players to have to actually refluff anything themselves or just ignore alignment reqs :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

if you kill some guy, his soul passes on beyond the veil normally. necrocarnate doesn't put him on hold in any material fashion, even if you harvest his essentia, so whatever you're fueling yourself on, it's not actually his soul, but some kind of placebo, like eberron's divine casters.

Why would "putting him on hold" be required for it to be evil? If you murder someone, you haven't interfered with their soul's passage, but it's still evil. If you pull off all of someone's toenails, you haven't done anything to them in terms of game mechanics, or at best you've inflicted a few HP of damage, is that not evil either?

It's like becoming a lich - the game merely tells you "this is an evil act." The fact that they don't describe in detail what makes it evil is irrelevant, you're the one who's supposed to fill in the blanks. Necrocarnum is the same thing.

[Venger]

Why would "putting him on hold" be required for it to be evil? If you murder someone, you haven't interfered with their soul's passage, but it's still evil. If you pull off all of someone's toenails, you haven't done anything to them in terms of game mechanics, or at best you've inflicted a few HP of damage, is that not evil either?

It's like becoming a lich - the game merely tells you "this is an evil act." The fact that they don't describe in detail what makes it evil is irrelevant, you're the one who's supposed to fill in the blanks. Necrocarnum is the same thing.

1) killing people is the bread and butter of this game, it's not an Evil act
2) I didn't say delaying his soul's departure to the afterlife meant killing him (assuming the circumstances were naughty) was not an Evil act
3) what I actually said was "you don't in any way actually trap his soul in the PM, so it is actually free to move on to the afterlife as per normal. whatever it is that you get your superpowers from is thus not actually his soul, since souls follow patterns and are subject to rules in the game."

no, actually, the game just saying random things like flanking, lying, or using poison are Evil acts is actually kind of a big thing about why they're irrelevant. oberoni.

anyway, this isn't an alignment thread, my point is that necrocarnaes don't delay souls like defacers or death giants, not that they aren't Evil because of Reasons, that's something for another thread.

[Psyren]

1) killing people is the bread and butter of this game, it's not an Evil act
2) I didn't say delaying his soul's departure to the afterlife meant killing him (assuming the circumstances were naughty) was not an Evil act
3) what I actually said was "you don't in any way actually trap his soul in the PM, so it is actually free to move on to the afterlife as per normal. whatever it is that you get your superpowers from is thus not actually his soul, since souls follow patterns and are subject to rules in the game."

no, actually, the game just saying random things like flanking, lying, or using poison are Evil acts is actually kind of a big thing about why they're irrelevant. oberoni.

anyway, this isn't an alignment thread, my point is that necrocarnaes don't delay souls like defacers or death giants, not that they aren't Evil because of Reasons, that's something for another thread.

Oberoni has nothing to do with this topic :smallconfused:

And again, "not delaying the soul" does not mean you are not doing anything to it at all. If you're torturing it on the way out, even if that is pure fluff, you do get power from that, just like a lich's phylactery being evil is pure fluff yet has mechanical consequences. Your conclusion simply does not follow.

[Warlocknthewind]

I suppose that's a broad enough system to not need refluffing. Irian to Dolurrh, and possibly around again :smallwink:

Necrocarnum could be souls currently in Dolurrh, Incarnate melds made from Plane-stuff, and Soul-born from his own Soul, which is why it's of lower potency than the others, and totemists from Lammania almost entirely.

Discovered by giants, granted to their experiments, the Mishtai, who betrayed giants against dragons, and we're nearly annihilated for it. The distruption of the ritual to transform the race into dragonborn was inurrupted by the vengeful giants, creating unwarranted side effects which caused the racial schism which is present today. I give both races the Dragonblood subtype to add crunch to the fluff.

[Venger]

Oberoni has nothing to do with this topic :smallconfused:

And again, "not delaying the soul" does not mean you are not doing anything to it at all. If you're torturing it on the way out, even if that is pure fluff, you do get power from that, just like a lich's phylactery being evil is pure fluff yet has mechanical consequences. Your conclusion simply does not follow.
Of... course it does?

oberoni is "(thing) is not problematic as-is, because if you houserule it in (way) then it makes sense."

that is literally exactly what you said about necrocarnum


The fact that they don't describe in detail what makes it evil is irrelevant, you're the one who's supposed to fill in the blanks. Necrocarnum is the same thing.

"sure, they don't actually describe what it is that you're doing that's naughty, since you don't mechanically impede souls in any way, but if you made something up where there was an explanation, it'd be fine, so there's no issue"

seems like oberoni to me.

oh, okay, so you're saying "you could fluff that a necrocarnate slaps a departing soul on the back of the head to reap essentia from it, the book says it's an Evil act, so it is."

I don't have any problem with that. I thought you were arguing that necrocarnate mechanically shackled souls to itself like thief or life or death giant, which is not true, that's what I was talking about, so it looks like we're on the same page, thanks for explaining.


I suppose that's a broad enough system to not need refluffing. Irian to Dolurrh, and possibly around again :smallwink:

Necrocarnum could be souls currently in Dolurrh, Incarnate melds made from Plane-stuff, and Soul-born from his own Soul, which is why it's of lower potency than the others, and totemists from Lammania almost entirely.

Discovered by giants, granted to their experiments, the Mishtai, who betrayed giants against dragons, and we're nearly annihilated for it. The distruption of the ritual to transform the race into dragonborn was inurrupted by the vengeful giants, creating unwarranted side effects which caused the racial schism which is present today. I give both races the Dragonblood subtype to add crunch to the fluff.

that sounds like a blast. tell us how it goes. my favorite subsystem in my favorite setting.

if you're doling out dragonblood, check out the draconic melds in dragon magic, there's a half dozen or so in there, including some real gems like the elder spirit and the dragon claws.

[Psyren]

Of... course it does?

oberoni is "(thing) is not problematic as-is, because if you houserule it in (way) then it makes sense."

that is literally exactly what you said about necrocarnum

Except I'm not houseruling anything (I was pointing out an official WotC adaptation from MoI) and I don't have a problem with necrocarnum being evil, you do :smalltongue:



oh, okay, so you're saying "you could fluff that a necrocarnate slaps a departing soul on the back of the head to reap essentia from it, the book says it's an Evil act, so it is."

Or however you want to fluff it, that part is up to you. The part that is not, is "necrocarnum isn't evil," unless you are houseruling that away or using the vivicarnum adaptation.



I don't have any problem with that. I thought you were arguing that necrocarnate mechanically shackled souls to itself like thief or life or death giant, which is not true, that's what I was talking about, so it looks like we're on the same page, thanks for explaining.

Well, it does - just not necessarily that of the dead body you happen to be draining. Make sense?


I suppose that's a broad enough system to not need refluffing. Irian to Dolurrh, and possibly around again :smallwink:

Indeed, and the mechanism by which Irian produces souls (possibly recycling from Dolurrh, or something else entirely) is up to you.

[Venger]

Except I'm not houseruling anything (I was pointing out an official WotC adaptation from MoI) and I don't have a problem with necrocarnum being evil, you do :smalltongue:
no, I wasn't complaining about your mention of vivicarnum, you didn't write it.


Or however you want to fluff it, that part is up to you. The part that is not, is "necrocarnum isn't evil," unless you are houseruling that away or using the vivicarnum adaptation.
right. I don't disagree that necrocarnum is RAW Evil, sorry if it came off that way.


Well, it does - just not necessarily that of the dead body you happen to be draining. Make sense?
uh... sure?
I just meant "if I kill a guy, he can be rezzed without difficulty as normal later on, unlike thief of life. since his soul's back in his body, whatever I'm drawing e from isn't it"

but yeah, I'm fine with that.

I just think vivicarnate's kind of dopey for the same reasons most people view avenger with scorn. if your dm wants to let you play something without an alignment req, that should be the end of it, we don't need to multiply everything by negative 1. it's especially galling since your class features aren't changed at all, it just says "doing all this stuff is Good now"

I know at this point hypocrisy and nonsense about alignment shouldn't bother me, but it really really does.

if OP is rejiggering the whole system, then he could just have people draw soul energy independent of traditional alignment. it's kinda the whole point of eberron anyway, like with clerics, that's why I felt like necrocarnate/vivicarnate as written weren't exactly a good mesh.

[The Vagabond]

You could try to re-fluff it to be drawn from the stories that are told, shaped into soul magic. Every story that is told shapes a soul to echo that story- And those stories last throughout the end of time, even after their first soul have died- The soul of the story is born and reborn each time it's told.

Just one idea- I don't ENTIRELY understand the fluff of Incarnum.

[Venger]

You could try to re-fluff it to be drawn from the stories that are told, shaped into soul magic. Every story that is told shapes a soul to echo that story- And those stories last throughout the end of time, even after their first soul have died- The soul of the story is born and reborn each time it's told.

Just one idea- I don't ENTIRELY understand the fluff of Incarnum.

That's a really interesting idea. I'd play that.

No one does. Not even our resident experts. The fluff is really trash.

[atemu1234]

I will look into these books and get back to this thread.

[Warlocknthewind]

I agree, the fluff is sort of patched together, but the crunch goes so well with so many other flavors :smallredface: especially psionics, which Eberron takes full advantage of.

Assuming a reincarnation/ascension system, halting a soul is keeping it from reaching its 6next potential, clogging the universe a bit. Kinda like trans-fats in your liver, keeping g it from filtering into its best and killing you slowly through toxin build up. The vessel which would have contained the soul of your zombie buddy was born still, sadly. Imagine this on a cosmic scale. As a hyperbolic example, Shavarath falls to the demons because a nation of mostly lawfully inclined peoples' souls (say, Cyre) were kept from the cycle and, depleting the Angelic & Diabolical forces.

[Venger]

I agree, the fluff is sort of patched together, but the crunch goes so well with so many other flavors :smallredface: especially psionics, which Eberron takes full advantage of.

Assuming a reincarnation/ascention system, halting a soul is keeping it from reaching its next potential, clogging the universe a bit. Kinda like trans-fats in your liver, keeping g it from filtering into its best and killing you slowly through toxin build up. Imagine this on a cosmic scale. As a hyperbolic example, Shavarath falls to the demons because a nation of mostly lawfully inclined peoples' souls (say, Cyre) were kept from the cycle and, depleting the Angelic & Diabolical forces.

the crunch is my favorite. it's my favorite subsytem to use, and by far the most dip-friendly.

that's a neat idea. kind of like when the planes aren't coterminous and people can't be rezzed in eberron.

[Psyren]

I just think vivicarnate's kind of dopey for the same reasons most people view avenger with scorn. if your dm wants to let you play something without an alignment req, that should be the end of it, we don't need to multiply everything by negative 1. it's especially galling since your class features aren't changed at all, it just says "doing all this stuff is Good now"

I know at this point hypocrisy and nonsense about alignment shouldn't bother me, but it really really does.

if OP is rejiggering the whole system, then he could just have people draw soul energy independent of traditional alignment. it's kinda the whole point of eberron anyway, like with clerics, that's why I felt like necrocarnate/vivicarnate as written weren't exactly a good mesh.

MoI is one of those weird books that is aimed at both DMs and players. So Necrocarnate is really meant to be a prestige class for villains. They threw in the adaptation as a way of saying, "well, we guess there's something kinda cool here, so you can tweak it for players if you want, but that really isn't what we had in mind" and left the bulk of it aimed at being something unsettling for the BBEG to wear.



Just one idea- I don't ENTIRELY understand the fluff of Incarnum.

Blue. Get it yet? Bluuuuuuuuuuue.