Tars Tarkas the Monk (Unchained)

[Tars Tarkas]

Hello ladies and gents of the playground,

I wanted to make a Kasatha (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/advanced-races-11-20-rp/kasatha-20-rp) Unchained Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/monk-unchained), I have played a Kasatha Sacred Fist (Warpriest) and loved it. So I am gonna try out the new monk.

Str: 16
Dex: 18 [+2]
Con: 13
Int: 15
Wis: 18 [+2]
Cha: 10
AC 22
HP 13

Feat (1rst Level): Multiweapon Fighting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/multiweapon-fighting-combat)
Bonus Feat (Monk): Boar Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/boar-style-combat-style) (Master of Many Styles (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/master-of-many-styles))
Bonus Feat: Combat Reflexes

I am gonna use Flaws from 3.5 but that is because at my table we like using that system to better fill out RP.
Flaw 1: Honorable Challenge (http://eberronunlimited.wikidot.com/flaw:honorable-challenge)
Flaw 2: Glory Hound (http://eberronunlimited.wikidot.com/flaw:glory-hound)

Flaw Feat: Weapon Finesse (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/weapon-finesse-combat---final)
Flaw Feat: Deadly Agility (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats#TOC-Deadly-Agility-Combat-) (Dreamscarred Press)

Any Advice on the current build at level 1 and ideas for progression?

[Extra Anchovies]

Question: Is the goal here to build a Kasatha uMonk, or is it to build Tars Tarkas? Because TT would not be a monk. He'd probably be a Warlord or something.

Another thing: You can't use Multiweapon Fighting with a Flurry of Blows, or at least not the uMonk's FoB.

[Tars Tarkas]

Replacing Umonk's flurry with Master of Many Styles. And no Multiweapon would be used on its own. a Kasatha monk would have 4 attacks at level 1, 5 at level 6 and so on with higher BAB, He would need to take Improved and Greater TWF (Which Jason has said would work with Multiweapon) to gain an insane amount of hits.

No its just a name.

[IZ42]

Hate to be a bummer, but old monk archetypes do not work with the Unchained Monk, except for Qinggong. It says so somewhere in Unchained.

[Tars Tarkas]

I never read that, and It would have the right things to replace. Bonus Feats and Flurry of Blows

[Extra Anchovies]

I never read that, and It would have the right things to replace. Bonus Feats and Flurry of Blows

It's in Pathfinder Unchained but didn't make it onto the PFSRD.


Finally, with the exception of the monk, these classes should work with any of the archetypes from previous books as long as the classes still have the appropriate class features to replace.

[IZ42]

From the Pathfinder Unchained book:

Finally, with the exception of the monk, these classes should work with any of the archetypes from previous books as long as the classes still have the appropriate class features to replace.

The UMonk's Flurry of Blows also functions differently from the old one, and so it isn't the same class feature except in name.

Edit: Swordsage'd

[Tars Tarkas]

Then how does the Qinggong work? According to that NONE of the Monk's archetypes would work.

Also changing how it works or not, doesn't matter it replaces a feature at the level with that Name.

[Extra Anchovies]

Then how does the Qinggong work? According to that NONE of the Monk's archetypes would work.

It's one of the options in the list of ki powers.


Qinggong Power (Su): A monk with this power selects any of the qinggong monk ki powers (Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Magic 51) for which he qualifies based on his monk level. A monk can select this ability multiple times. Each time, he must select a different qinggong monk ki power.


Also changing how it works or not, doesn't matter it replaces a feature at the level with that Name.

That's not relevant. You can't apply CRB Monk archetypes to the uMonk.

[Tars Tarkas]

Ok so it can pick FROM the archetype but not use the archetype technically speaking.

Yeah that is stupid.

[Extra Anchovies]

Yeah that is stupid.

I think it's a very positive change. The only Monk archetypes that anyone took were MoMS (stupidly overpowered, but at the same time only useful for a 2-level dip) and Zen Archer (not overpowered, but so strong as to make most other martial archers irrelevant, which is very bad for game diversity).

Also, it's worth noting that the Monk Vows still work, since they aren't actually archetypes.

[Tars Tarkas]

Yes but now we are back to the very weak sauce of bonus feats a monk can take. Dodge is ok for a +1 dodge but really you will rarely see it. Mobility is much the same. Deflect Arrows is good but situational. Most of the feats are lack luster and are nice to have but, when you could change them out for something that actually helps you out. They could be good.
I switched the bonus to Combat Reflexes. Next level I guess I take Improved Grapple but.. not much on that list. How many monks take those two their first two levels?

[IZ42]

I think it's a very positive change. The only Monk archetypes that anyone took were MoMS (stupidly overpowered, but at the same time only useful for a 2-level dip) and Zen Archer (not overpowered, but so strong as to make most other martial archers irrelevant, which is very bad for game diversity).

Also, it's worth noting that the Monk Vows still work, since they aren't actually archetypes.

Hungry Ghost Monk and Qinggong were useful, and Tetori made the Best Grappler. The best part is, you could be a Hungry Ghost Qinggong MoMS Monk, as the archetypes all replace different things.

[Psyren]

Honestly I agree with Tarkas, I'm of the opinion that you should be able to take MoMS on a Unchained Monk. I know they specifically precluded this, but the the baseline monk bonus feats blow chunks, and UnMonk does not make any of them any better. Heck, I'd just be happy with the style feats as options for the bonus feat selection even without Fuse Style. That would be my preferred houserule to get UnMonk where I want it to be; they're supposed to be the kings of fighting unarmed and easy access to the style feat chains would have enhanced that.

The rest of the UnMonk is pretty awesome though. The style strikes are nice, I think this flurry is the best yet, and there are plenty of sweet ki powers to choose from both from the class itself and from Qinggong. You will quickly get starved on ki though without picking up items to help manage that.

[Tars Tarkas]

Honestly I agree with Tarkas, I'm of the opinion that you should be able to take MoMS on a Unchained Monk. I know they specifically precluded this, but the the baseline monk bonus feats blow chunks, and UnMonk does not make any of them any better. Heck, I'd just be happy with the style feats as options for the bonus feat selection even without Fuse Style. That would be my preferred houserule to get UnMonk where I want it to be; they're supposed to be the kings of fighting unarmed and easy access to the style feat chains would have enhanced that.

The rest of the UnMonk is pretty awesome though. The style strikes are nice, I think this flurry is the best yet, and there are plenty of sweet ki powers to choose from both from the class itself and from Qinggong. You will quickly get starved on ki though without picking up items to help manage that.
On a human that Flurry rocks, on a Kasatha not so much. But I think I will talk my GM into allowing that since it is basically a no starter on why they can't. The publisher seems to not want you to is not that valid of a reason. but to be honest boar style was for dex to damage till I recalled Deadly Agility. So Pummeling Style will take its place.

[Psyren]

On a human that Flurry rocks, on a Kasatha not so much. But I think I will talk my GM into allowing that since it is basically a no starter on why they can't. The publisher seems to not want you to is not that valid of a reason. but to be honest boar style was for dex to damage till I recalled Deadly Agility. So Pummeling Style will take its place.

Eh, Kasatha is kinda unique in this regard so actually I can see the reason for not bothering to balance around them. It might be better to have a monk archetype specific to them, similar to how they have a ranger archetype that lets them dual bows. As a race they would develop a unique fighting style of their own.

In any event, Kasatha already has advantages with the unmonk, like being able to use the "you must punch" style strikes e.g. hammerblow while dual-wielding other weapons, not to mention still being able to deflect/snatch arrows and the like. So I'm not overly concerned with them specifically not being able to get extra benefit for extra limbs in a flurry.

[Tars Tarkas]

The thing is, you do not HAVE to flurry. But you are right, they could carry a Monk Spade and still use unarmed strike for their other abilities or anything like that.

Four Attacks at level 1 with a total of +6 to hit on each (+1 bab and +5 from Dex to hit) and 1d6+5 for each damage is not bad by any means. The 22 touch AC at level 1 is better then virtually anyone else as well. Best armor I think can be bought is a +7 Armor +1 Dex at level 1 without traits like Rich Parents. So that is roughly AC 18 vs AC 22 at first level. Defensively and Offensively this is a pretty good build at level 1 from what I can see.

Or did I mess up somewhere?

[Psyren]

Well of course monks are awesome at level one if you're starting with two 18s before racial adjustments, but most games don't assume 54 Point Buy. Comparing stats like that to 12 Dex and Rich Parents is a bit silly.

[Tars Tarkas]

Well of course monks are awesome at level one if you're starting with two 18s before racial adjustments, but most games don't assume 54 Point Buy. Comparing stats like that to 12 Dex and Rich Parents is a bit silly.
The dangers of rolled stats, sometimes you get just better then average rolls when the Random Number God bestows his blessings upon you.

But I mean even with the average 20 point buy, the +2 dodge bonus and the total of 4 attacks, will almost always lead.

[Psyren]

The dangers of rolled stats, sometimes you get just better then average rolls when the Random Number God bestows his blessings upon you.

But I mean even with the average 20 point buy, the +2 dodge bonus and the total of 4 attacks, will almost always lead.

Where are you getting 4 attacks at level 1? You should have 1 from BAB + 1 from flurry. You won't have the ki pool until 3, and likely no haste until 4 or 5.

20 PB on a Kasatha will get you 10 Str, 14+2 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 16+2 Wis, 8 Cha, +2 dodge for a total of 18 19 AC - decent, but that same Kasatha could be a Brawler with 8 Wis, 16 Dex and a Chain Shirt for the same AC and much higher Strength.

[Tars Tarkas]

Kasatha have 4 arms, 1 Primary 3 off hands. James Jacob from PF has confirmed this means 4 attacks at TWF Penalties. Multiweapon makes it at -2/-2/-2/-2 and that is on ANY class But since Monk's do not have offhand attacks with Unarmed Strikes they do not take the -2 to each hit.

To be fair I based my monk builds on Dex and Wis focus, basically speed boxers.

[Extra Anchovies]

Kasatha have 4 arms, 1 Primary 3 off hands. James Jacob from PF has confirmed this means 4 attacks at TWF Penalties. Multiweapon makes it at -2/-2/-2/-2 and that is on ANY class But since Monk's do not have offhand attacks with Unarmed Strikes they do not take the -2 to each hit.

Even if that's true, main-hand attacks still take TWF/MWF penalties.

[Tars Tarkas]

Even if that's true, main-hand attacks still take TWF/MWF penalties.

Except you only take the TWF penalty when you use Offhand attacks, for monks with unarmed strikes all are Main-hand attacks or treated as such. If a monk makes a single attack without flurry they take no negs.

[Psyren]

Kasatha have 4 arms, 1 Primary 3 off hands. James Jacob from PF has confirmed this means 4 attacks at TWF Penalties. Multiweapon makes it at -2/-2/-2/-2 and that is on ANY class But since Monk's do not have offhand attacks with Unarmed Strikes they do not take the -2 to each hit.

You're mixing up two sets of rules here. Yes, you will get 4 attacks if you use Multiweapon Fighting. However, you cannot use that and flurry (either unchained or regular) at the same time. Both kinds of flurry will only give you two attacks at level 1 no matter how many arms you have. Furthermore, JJ's line about no offhands refers to flurry - if you are MWF with unarmed strikes, your additional attacks will indeed take the penalties. The official rulings from the Design Team are here (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qie) and here (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9onf) and there is also Mark Seifter's (Unchained Designer) confirmation of that here. (http://paizo.com/products/btpy9c25/discuss&page=30?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Pathfinder-Unchained#1472)

So to reiterate - you cannot TWF/MWF and flurry. You must use either or. The former takes penalties, the latter used to take penalties also but now it does not.



To be fair I based my monk builds on Dex and Wis focus, basically speed boxers.

This is a classic monk mistake - without Strength, your damage will be pitiable even if you have multiple attacks. You should instead choose to dip your Dex and Con a bit - for starters, the unchained monk has higher hit points, so you can get by with 12 Con, and second, the unchained monk has several ways to get additional dodge bonuses to AC (Furious Defense + Defensive Spin = +8 AC/touch AC/CMD) so you can move some points from Dex to Str. Note also that one of those two uses no action and costs no ki either. And that's before the Qinggong barkskin SLA as well.

[Tars Tarkas]

Think there has been some confusion. I mean to say if using MWF I would not be using Flurry.

i do see what you mean, I think I am mixing up some rules. His four attacks would come with the permanent -2 then.

Why is it a mistake? I mean if you plan on going Dex to hit and damage why is it a bad idea to go with a slightly lower Str?

[Extra Anchovies]

This is a classic monk mistake - without Strength, your damage will be pitiable even if you have multiple attacks. You should instead choose to dip your Dex and Con a bit - for starters, the unchained monk has higher hit points, so you can get by with 12 Con, and second, the unchained monk has several ways to get additional dodge bonuses to AC (Furious Defense + Defensive Spin = +8 AC/touch AC/CMD) so you can move some points from Dex to Str. Note also that one of those two uses no action and costs no ki either. And that's before the Qinggong barkskin SLA as well.

Really? I would think that with Deadly Agility and Piranha Strike a Dex monk could keep up with a Str monk with Power Attack, damage-wise. Is the advantage of a Str focus that monks like size increases and those tend to increase Strength while lowering Dexterity?

[Psyren]

Really? I would think that with Deadly Agility and Piranha Strike a Dex monk could keep up with a Str monk with Power Attack, damage-wise. Is the advantage of a Str focus that monks like size increases and those tend to increase Strength while lowering Dexterity?

I missed that he was using Deadly Agility. I tend not to regard third-party when evaluating first-party classes because you could just as well play an unarmed Stalker or Psywar or something and be far more effective anyway.

For flurry, Piranha Strike is identical to Power Attack: -1 to hit, +2 to damage, no offhand reductions. With MWF it might pull ahead - if you can land all those hits with the additional penalties.

[Tars Tarkas]

I missed that he was using Deadly Agility. I tend not to regard third-party when evaluating first-party classes because you could just as well play an unarmed Stalker or Psywar or something and be far more effective anyway.

For flurry, Piranha Strike is identical to Power Attack: -1 to hit, +2 to damage, no offhand reductions. With MWF it might pull ahead - if you can land all those hits with the additional penalties.

What additional penalties? Aren't they all -2/-2/-2/-2? If you have a descent to hit ability score and full bab doesn't that make it more likely?

Also funny the psionics guy forgot Dreamscarred Press material.

[Extra Anchovies]

I missed that he was using Deadly Agility. I tend not to regard third-party when evaluating first-party classes because you could just as well play an unarmed Stalker or Psywar or something and be far more effective anyway.

Eh. I've seen games where third-party feats were allowed but not third-party classes or subsystems. To each their own, I suppose.


What additional penalties? Aren't they all -2/-2/-2/-2? If you have a descent to hit ability score and full bab doesn't that make it more likely?

The penalties from Piranha Strike.

[Psyren]

What additional penalties? Aren't they all -2/-2/-2/-2?

I meant that plus the scaling penalty with piranha strike.



Also funny the psionics guy forgot Dreamscarred Press material.

Not "forgot" - disregarded :smalltongue: You do know they're not part of Paizo, right?

[Tars Tarkas]

Not to me they aren't. Dreamscarred is First Party Plus in my books. I love the psionic classes. But I am not allowed to use them because I make GMs cry.

And thank you I was confused what other penalties. But yeah Piranha would be a good thing to have. Perhaps for 3rd level.


Should I take any VMC?

[Psyren]

Not to me they aren't. Dreamscarred is First Party Plus in my books. I love the psionic classes. But I am not allowed to use them because I make GMs cry.

Take it from the psionics guy - this can be counterproductive behavior if you want psionics to be allowed in your games.



Should I take any VMC?

They are best on classes that have a wide variety of bonus feats to choose from and compensate for the 5 you're giving up. Unfortunately the Unchained Monk's bonus feats are extremely limited, at least for right now until it gets some archetype support.

A good way to evaluate a VMC is to compare it to what you could have done with those 5 feats instead - a quick and dirty baseline in the UnMonk's case would be taking Extra Ki 5 times. for +10 bonus ki. Then you'd ask yourself if any of the VMC choices measure up to 10 extra ki. (That's actually the minimum effectiveness you'd get out of those feats - you could have been using them to get your style feats or combat maneuver feats faster for instance, bringing your build together.)

For the most part the answer is no, but there are a couple of decent choices out there. As a quick example, VMC Magus + Ki Arcana will get you 9+Int ki, plus two more arcana on top of that, and you can also use your ki to enhance your weapon for 10 rounds. Thus VMC Magus is a worthwhile choice. (For your other two arcana, consider choices like Accurate Strike, Bane Blade, Hasted Assault, Familiar, or Ghost Blade.)

[Sayt]

Really? I would think that with Deadly Agility and Piranha Strike a Dex monk could keep up with a Str monk with Power Attack, damage-wise. Is the advantage of a Str focus that monks like size increases and those tend to increase Strength while lowering Dexterity?

Str Monks can take advantage of Dragon Ferocity, and horn of the criosphinx, but OTOH, don't get their damage stat to defense.

[Tars Tarkas]

Take it from the psionics guy - this can be counterproductive behavior if you want psionics to be allowed in your games.


It was not intentional it just happened. I was a telepath focused psion and I had Empathic connection and we were tasked with joining a cult and finding out intel. I sort of made that WAY to easy as I just walked up to folks and most of them became my buddy.

As for the VMC Magus was a thought already but not for your reason but I like it.

[Psyren]

Eh. I've seen games where third-party feats were allowed but not third-party classes or subsystems. To each their own, I suppose.

That seems odd to me - generally what I see is that GM's either allow DSP or not. Letting you open up PoW or UPsi but banning all the classes and powers just sounds very weird.

But I suppose my issue with building with DSP material of late is how easy it is to build something viable while barely even trying to. There is more of an inherent build challenge to me in saying "I'm going to make this Unchained Rogue/Monk able to take on a Balor" when I restrict myself to just the first-party stuff, and it also feels just a bit more rewarding - both because of the higher challenge, and because just about anybody playing PF can make use of the finished product (even potentially in PFS for the 12-and-under builds), rather than just the tables that are cool with 3PP. I dunno, just my two copper of late.

I still love psionics and maneuvers of course but I feel like the biggest challenge there is simply understanding those subsystems, and I already have that under my belt.

Now Akasha - that still pushes all the right buttons for me just because of the inherent complexity that incarnum-esque systems provide. I enjoy tinkering with a Vizier or Guru to make it capable of a lot of things at all levels.

[Tars Tarkas]

Don't misunderstand i could still play a Psionic Kasatha all I wanted, but the GM doesn't like them much due to the ability to make social interactions way to easy. The powers for combat they like far more due the balance of them. In fact I pointed them to spell point so we may eventually switch to that using the empower mechanic as well.

Honestly if I gestalted a Monk Kasatha or Sacred Fist Kasatha I would par it up with Psion or if 3.5 material is allowed the Erudite.