Citan
2015-06-19, 02:46 PM
Hi everyone, how are you?
I come to you for input about a heavy-multiclass build.
In my oncoming campaign, we'll be a PC group who will be mainly fighters with a very bit of healing (1 Monk with Cleric dip, 1 Ranger, 1 Rogue Trickster). So, a frontliner (nova if he goes elemental, controller if he goes Open Hands), a ranged combattant (striker? controller? don't really understand Ranger' role) and pure striker. Very light healing powers (Monk/Ranger), control powers (Ranger? Monk?), nearly no offensive spells.
The easiest way for me to balance the group would be to add a wizard/sorcerer NPC.
However, I love Bards for the fluff and versatility (and social skills).
So, I was considering the following build just for crunching fun (maybe we'll never go past 10 levels anyways). (Sorry it's gonna be a long post)
CLASSES
Bard (Lore), 6 (starting): Bardic Inspiration at short rest, skills and expertise, Jack of all Trades, Magic Secrets.
Warlock, 2:usual Eldricht Blast + Agonizing Blast + Repelling Blast + 1rst level short rest spells.
Sorcerer (Draconic), 6 : Draconic Resilience (Fire), Elemental Affinity, Metamagic: Quickened and Twinned and offensive spells.
Paladin (Devotion), 6: Lay on Hands, Fighting Style (Duelist), 1rst and 2nd level spells, DIVINE SMITE, AURA OF PROTECTION.
STATS
Stats point-buy (houserule: 30 points, max stat 16) : STR 13 ( for paladin multiclass :/), DEX 15, CON 13 / INT 8 / WIS 8 / CHA 16.
Half-Elf : Darkvision, 2 skills, saving throws Charmed, immune Sleep, +2 CHA, +1 DEX + 1 CON.
Final starting stats : STR 13 / DEX 16 / CON 14 / INT 8 / WIS 8 / CHA 18.
SPELLS
Spell slots: lvl 17 (up to 9nth slot).
Spells known
Cantrips
- Bard: Vicious Mockery (start), Prestidigitation (start), Mage Hand.
- Warlock: Eldricht Blast, Poison Spray.
- Sorcerer: Shocking Grasp (start), Ray of Frost (start), Create Bonfire (start), Mold Earth (start), Message.
Lvl 1 Spells
- Paladin: paladin's List
- Warlock: Hex, ??? (many good spells : Armor of Agathys, Witch Bolt, Unseen Servant -for RP or fun tactics-, Dissonant Whispers)
- Bard: Faerie Fire (start), Sleep (start), Healing Word (start, replaced later), Thunderwave (start), Unseen Servant?, Feather Fall or Charm Person (start).
- Sorcerer: Magic Missile, Shield, Expeditious Retreat or Fog Cloud (replaced) (too bad for Chromatic Orb I love it).
Lvl 2 Spells
- Paladin: paladin's list
- Bard: Blindness/Deafness, Enhance Ability, Invisibility (or maybe Hold Person depending on monk and rogue choices), Silence.
- Sorcerer: Scorching Ray, Levitate or Hold Person.
Lvl 3 Spells
- Bard: Bestow Curse, Leomund's Tiny Hut, MAGIC SECRETS: Conjure Animals (because fun and OP) and Crusader's Mantle (or Aura of Vitality if really needed). Too bad no way to get Rope Trick which seems awesome.
- Sorcerer: Haste, Fly (or Slow? Fireball? COUNTERSPELL?)
Spells prepared max: 2 (Warlock) + 7 (Sorcerer) + 11 (Bard) + 6 (Paladin) = 26.
OTHER
Equipement: Finesse Weapon (Rapier, Whip) + Shield, no armor (better than any Medium Armor, no problem with Stealth/Movement).
ASI/Feat (three times)
Option 1 Warcaster, CHA+DEX, CHA+DEX (to max main stat and gain bonus Initiative/CA).
Option 2: Warcaster, Shield Master, Inspiring Leader (or Elemental Adept for fire spells).
WRAP-UP
Soooo... Basically, the idea was...
- At low level, be a Bard with Eldricht Blast Option.
- Expand versatility with Sorcerer and burst damage with Divine Smite.
- At higher level, be mainly an enhanced Paladin thanks to higher, rechargeable spell slots while always keeping a buff/debuff active (and using Eldricht Blast at range or for AoO).
The fluff would be something like (in the hypothesis we go up to 20): character that starts as a bard will for some reason, crave for power to accomplish something. To achieve this, he will make a pact with higher entity which will at some point reveal its latent sorcerer power. Later, as he strives to accomplish his mission and loses his way in the process, he provokes a great catastrophe that will cost dearly to all and him in particular. After the shock, he vows to spend the rest of his life dedicated himself to life and good.
(Alignement Neutral Chaotic >>> maybe some part Evil >>> Chaotic or Lawful Good).
General Questions
A. I don't think it's OP, but I love the versatility (and I love mix-and-matching for a concept). So, without striving to min-max, is this character viable or would it be a dead-weight?
>>> General opinion is that a) it's not OP. b) it's viable but very late bloomer. c) it's fun to play as a PC. d) it's very hard to play and balance as a DMPC.
B. Is it justifiable Fluff-wise (seems that most Warlock Pacts are linked with "evil" so wonder how to articulate that with a Paladin Oath), especially if I want to alternate progression to get Divine Smite as soon as possible ?
>>>
You can refluff patrons.
C. If I could freely level up, what would be the best course?
I'd recommend switching your Devotion paladin levels to Oath of the Ancients paladin levels if you're getting countercharm from bard 6 (if not either is viable) and going to 8 (you'll lose 9th level slots but you can't cast 9th level spells anyway so it's not a massive problem imho) for ASI and awesome aura stuff. I'd also take your Warlock to 4 for the ASI and grabbing shillelagh.
I'd probably start Warlock or Bard, then go into sorc, then whichever you didn't pick and then go into paladin.
More specific questions
1. Would if be worth sacrificing Sorcerer's lvl6 Elemental Expertise for Paladin's 7th lvl Aura? If I consider that my main ranged spell attack will be Eldricht Blast anyways.
>>> General opinion is that lvl7 aura is better.
2. Same question with Pact of the Tome (I'd take Shillelagh, Thorn Whip and Guidance, and maybe trade Agonizing Blast for Ritual learning >> potential nice rituals like Find Familiar, Tenser's Floating Disk, Unseen Servant, Silence).
>>> General opinion is that Tome can be better, bringing Shillelagh to alleviate MAD.
2bis. Would other Metamagic options be better for me (was hesitating with Empowered and Careful).
>>> Opinions vary, some say 6 points is not necessary.
3. Would Sacred Weapon be really necessary? Because I feel overall Oath of Nature is nicer (spells like Ensnaring Strike, Monnbeam, Misty Step and lvl7 aura).
>>> No opinion given on usefulness of Sacred Weapon, but everyone recommends Nature for amazing lvl7 aura.
4. Can I live with only 18 CHA or is it specially mandatory to get to 20 for this build? I feel there are many strong feats to consider...
>>> Everyone recommends maxing CHA.
5. About Feats: I read in Master Guide that you could allow a character to learn one beyond the ASI/Feat system. If a player strives for one, what kind of quest or event could allow him to get it?
>>> No opinion given.
I'm real sorry for the huge list of questions and thank you in advance for any input, hoping this build at most piqued your interest, at worse made you smile at the poor chimera :)
EDIT1: Integration of answers and opinions in the original post, huge work to make this easier to read.
EDIT2: Two "final builds" hereunder.
Final starting stats : STR 13 / DEX 16 / CON 14 / INT 8 / WIS 8 / CHA 18
"Sooo. This is the same as the initial version right? "
Basically, yeah.
"So, you finally decided to disregard all the nice advice people gave you?"
Not really.
I just realized that I didn't explain enough why I chose these specific archetypes. And I didn't it because it was not clear in my own head. :)
The idea of this build was to get a "melee spellcaster" with the most versatility available, while keeping it efficient. Each class brought something unique while synergizing with others.
Lore Bard up to 6 to get Paladin's lvl3 exclusive spell Elemental Weapon (IF allowed to work with Elemental Affinity). While also learning healing spells and debuffs (Bestow Curse/Slow, Haste).
Paladin 6 for spells, smites, CD (to get better chance to hit) and aura to compensate and enhance saving throws.
Sorcerer 6 for Quicken spell and either Heightened or Twinned lvl 5 Bestow Curse. Going up to 6 was to get lvl4 slot creation for smites (6mp) and Elemental Affinity (Fire) to work with Scorching Ray, Fireball.
Warlock 2 for Hex, Armor of Agathys, Eldricht Blast++: better defense, offense, cantrip. And a few MMP per short rest.
Paladin synergizes with all casters (more spell slots), Bard with Sorcerer (metamagic), Sorcerer with Paladin (extra smites), Warlock with Sorcerer (extra MMP), all of which with large range of spells and decent melee attack with a magic weapon.
With that said, the two reasons for going Draconic Sorcerer were 1) Good natural armor (13+DEX) and 2) Elemental Affinity working with all fire spells (direct damage, Searing Smite and Elemental Weapon). I personnally don't see any good reason to forbid it fluff-wise, although it could certainly be questioned on Elemental Weapon balance-wise (one could argue that it's not better than Paladin 11+ with the same spell though, and less good than Vengeance 11+ with buffed weapon).
So, in games where DM would allow a large application of Elemental Affinity, this build rocks. No game-breaking magic sure, but one of the largest range of roles he can fulfill efficiently.
If DM doesn't allow this, the 6th lvl loses much interest, as all of Draconic: Draconic Resilience is not indispensable, not being able to generate 4th lvl is not so bad (since you can use MP points to good other use anyways).
In that case, the modifications proposed by everyone kind enough to answer in this thread become very pertinent. The consensus build is as follows:
Lore Bard 6 / Ancienst Paladin / Favored Soul Sorcerer 4 / Tome Warlock 3
You "eat" Sorcerer to get...
- Warlock 3: Tome for Shillelagh (reduce MAD), Guidance, Thorn Whip and potentially rituals, 2nd level slots.
- Ancients Paladin: you trade very good CD and protection spells for excellent protection aura and versatile Druidish spells.
This build is better in many aspects: Ancients aura and nice spells, 1 more ASI, greatly reduce MAD for a pure melee build (meaning more feats), better short rest spells. The drawbacks are not great but they exist though: no Sorcerer lvl3 spell (meaning you'll consume Magic Secret to get good offensive spell), 2 spellcaster levels's worth of spell slots, no physical versatility (you're stuck with melee everytime), no ability to Twin Bestow Curse, need of good armor, need to choose between rituals and Repelling Blast (which is very much underestimated imo, providing a bit of Manoeuvers).
Overall a better build because easier to build and come online, but requires a very different approach in spell selection especially with Magic Secrets (unless you forego Tome to get Sorcerer 5).
It's also easier to justify fluff-wise between Paladin and Warlock if you don't wan t to refluff (just take Fey) (pick Conjure Animals to reinforce the coherence ^^).
Which led me to think about other balance choices:
Lore Bard 6 / Devotion Paladin 6 / Favored Soul Sorcerer 3 / Tomelock 5 (or Chain if you really want spell resistance).
Metamagic which cost only one point have to be favored (although you could still cast Twinned Haste and Bestow Curse 3rd level).
Since lv3, best Domain will be Light (offense) or Trickery (defense, sneakery).
Warlock nets you 3rd lvl slots for direct smites or MM fueling, both Repelling Blast AND rituals up to lvl3 (which is great).
However, you'll have to use Magic Secrets on offensive spells or forego them entirely. And you have even less spell slots than before.
As the one before, build based on Shillelagh, although more offensive (focus on attack and damage rather than defense). Added versatility comes from lvl3 rituals, which incidently makes this build potentially the best in terms of spell choice.
Lore Bard 6 / Devotion Paladin 6 / Favored Soul(Light) Sorcerer 5 / Chainlock 3
Sorcerer nets you free Fireball and Scorching Ray, so Magic Secrets are free for anything else. Also more max MMP to play with.
Chainlock is here only for spells, cantrips and familiar (scout and magic resistance).
You still get Magic Resistance, although through familiar, and you'll need DEX to attack.
Apart from the lack of ASI/Feats, all these builds have strengths and weaknesses making them complex to build, but fun to play with. Pick your choice :)
I come to you for input about a heavy-multiclass build.
In my oncoming campaign, we'll be a PC group who will be mainly fighters with a very bit of healing (1 Monk with Cleric dip, 1 Ranger, 1 Rogue Trickster). So, a frontliner (nova if he goes elemental, controller if he goes Open Hands), a ranged combattant (striker? controller? don't really understand Ranger' role) and pure striker. Very light healing powers (Monk/Ranger), control powers (Ranger? Monk?), nearly no offensive spells.
The easiest way for me to balance the group would be to add a wizard/sorcerer NPC.
However, I love Bards for the fluff and versatility (and social skills).
So, I was considering the following build just for crunching fun (maybe we'll never go past 10 levels anyways). (Sorry it's gonna be a long post)
CLASSES
Bard (Lore), 6 (starting): Bardic Inspiration at short rest, skills and expertise, Jack of all Trades, Magic Secrets.
Warlock, 2:usual Eldricht Blast + Agonizing Blast + Repelling Blast + 1rst level short rest spells.
Sorcerer (Draconic), 6 : Draconic Resilience (Fire), Elemental Affinity, Metamagic: Quickened and Twinned and offensive spells.
Paladin (Devotion), 6: Lay on Hands, Fighting Style (Duelist), 1rst and 2nd level spells, DIVINE SMITE, AURA OF PROTECTION.
STATS
Stats point-buy (houserule: 30 points, max stat 16) : STR 13 ( for paladin multiclass :/), DEX 15, CON 13 / INT 8 / WIS 8 / CHA 16.
Half-Elf : Darkvision, 2 skills, saving throws Charmed, immune Sleep, +2 CHA, +1 DEX + 1 CON.
Final starting stats : STR 13 / DEX 16 / CON 14 / INT 8 / WIS 8 / CHA 18.
SPELLS
Spell slots: lvl 17 (up to 9nth slot).
Spells known
Cantrips
- Bard: Vicious Mockery (start), Prestidigitation (start), Mage Hand.
- Warlock: Eldricht Blast, Poison Spray.
- Sorcerer: Shocking Grasp (start), Ray of Frost (start), Create Bonfire (start), Mold Earth (start), Message.
Lvl 1 Spells
- Paladin: paladin's List
- Warlock: Hex, ??? (many good spells : Armor of Agathys, Witch Bolt, Unseen Servant -for RP or fun tactics-, Dissonant Whispers)
- Bard: Faerie Fire (start), Sleep (start), Healing Word (start, replaced later), Thunderwave (start), Unseen Servant?, Feather Fall or Charm Person (start).
- Sorcerer: Magic Missile, Shield, Expeditious Retreat or Fog Cloud (replaced) (too bad for Chromatic Orb I love it).
Lvl 2 Spells
- Paladin: paladin's list
- Bard: Blindness/Deafness, Enhance Ability, Invisibility (or maybe Hold Person depending on monk and rogue choices), Silence.
- Sorcerer: Scorching Ray, Levitate or Hold Person.
Lvl 3 Spells
- Bard: Bestow Curse, Leomund's Tiny Hut, MAGIC SECRETS: Conjure Animals (because fun and OP) and Crusader's Mantle (or Aura of Vitality if really needed). Too bad no way to get Rope Trick which seems awesome.
- Sorcerer: Haste, Fly (or Slow? Fireball? COUNTERSPELL?)
Spells prepared max: 2 (Warlock) + 7 (Sorcerer) + 11 (Bard) + 6 (Paladin) = 26.
OTHER
Equipement: Finesse Weapon (Rapier, Whip) + Shield, no armor (better than any Medium Armor, no problem with Stealth/Movement).
ASI/Feat (three times)
Option 1 Warcaster, CHA+DEX, CHA+DEX (to max main stat and gain bonus Initiative/CA).
Option 2: Warcaster, Shield Master, Inspiring Leader (or Elemental Adept for fire spells).
WRAP-UP
Soooo... Basically, the idea was...
- At low level, be a Bard with Eldricht Blast Option.
- Expand versatility with Sorcerer and burst damage with Divine Smite.
- At higher level, be mainly an enhanced Paladin thanks to higher, rechargeable spell slots while always keeping a buff/debuff active (and using Eldricht Blast at range or for AoO).
The fluff would be something like (in the hypothesis we go up to 20): character that starts as a bard will for some reason, crave for power to accomplish something. To achieve this, he will make a pact with higher entity which will at some point reveal its latent sorcerer power. Later, as he strives to accomplish his mission and loses his way in the process, he provokes a great catastrophe that will cost dearly to all and him in particular. After the shock, he vows to spend the rest of his life dedicated himself to life and good.
(Alignement Neutral Chaotic >>> maybe some part Evil >>> Chaotic or Lawful Good).
General Questions
A. I don't think it's OP, but I love the versatility (and I love mix-and-matching for a concept). So, without striving to min-max, is this character viable or would it be a dead-weight?
>>> General opinion is that a) it's not OP. b) it's viable but very late bloomer. c) it's fun to play as a PC. d) it's very hard to play and balance as a DMPC.
B. Is it justifiable Fluff-wise (seems that most Warlock Pacts are linked with "evil" so wonder how to articulate that with a Paladin Oath), especially if I want to alternate progression to get Divine Smite as soon as possible ?
>>>
You can refluff patrons.
C. If I could freely level up, what would be the best course?
I'd recommend switching your Devotion paladin levels to Oath of the Ancients paladin levels if you're getting countercharm from bard 6 (if not either is viable) and going to 8 (you'll lose 9th level slots but you can't cast 9th level spells anyway so it's not a massive problem imho) for ASI and awesome aura stuff. I'd also take your Warlock to 4 for the ASI and grabbing shillelagh.
I'd probably start Warlock or Bard, then go into sorc, then whichever you didn't pick and then go into paladin.
More specific questions
1. Would if be worth sacrificing Sorcerer's lvl6 Elemental Expertise for Paladin's 7th lvl Aura? If I consider that my main ranged spell attack will be Eldricht Blast anyways.
>>> General opinion is that lvl7 aura is better.
2. Same question with Pact of the Tome (I'd take Shillelagh, Thorn Whip and Guidance, and maybe trade Agonizing Blast for Ritual learning >> potential nice rituals like Find Familiar, Tenser's Floating Disk, Unseen Servant, Silence).
>>> General opinion is that Tome can be better, bringing Shillelagh to alleviate MAD.
2bis. Would other Metamagic options be better for me (was hesitating with Empowered and Careful).
>>> Opinions vary, some say 6 points is not necessary.
3. Would Sacred Weapon be really necessary? Because I feel overall Oath of Nature is nicer (spells like Ensnaring Strike, Monnbeam, Misty Step and lvl7 aura).
>>> No opinion given on usefulness of Sacred Weapon, but everyone recommends Nature for amazing lvl7 aura.
4. Can I live with only 18 CHA or is it specially mandatory to get to 20 for this build? I feel there are many strong feats to consider...
>>> Everyone recommends maxing CHA.
5. About Feats: I read in Master Guide that you could allow a character to learn one beyond the ASI/Feat system. If a player strives for one, what kind of quest or event could allow him to get it?
>>> No opinion given.
I'm real sorry for the huge list of questions and thank you in advance for any input, hoping this build at most piqued your interest, at worse made you smile at the poor chimera :)
EDIT1: Integration of answers and opinions in the original post, huge work to make this easier to read.
EDIT2: Two "final builds" hereunder.
Final starting stats : STR 13 / DEX 16 / CON 14 / INT 8 / WIS 8 / CHA 18
"Sooo. This is the same as the initial version right? "
Basically, yeah.
"So, you finally decided to disregard all the nice advice people gave you?"
Not really.
I just realized that I didn't explain enough why I chose these specific archetypes. And I didn't it because it was not clear in my own head. :)
The idea of this build was to get a "melee spellcaster" with the most versatility available, while keeping it efficient. Each class brought something unique while synergizing with others.
Lore Bard up to 6 to get Paladin's lvl3 exclusive spell Elemental Weapon (IF allowed to work with Elemental Affinity). While also learning healing spells and debuffs (Bestow Curse/Slow, Haste).
Paladin 6 for spells, smites, CD (to get better chance to hit) and aura to compensate and enhance saving throws.
Sorcerer 6 for Quicken spell and either Heightened or Twinned lvl 5 Bestow Curse. Going up to 6 was to get lvl4 slot creation for smites (6mp) and Elemental Affinity (Fire) to work with Scorching Ray, Fireball.
Warlock 2 for Hex, Armor of Agathys, Eldricht Blast++: better defense, offense, cantrip. And a few MMP per short rest.
Paladin synergizes with all casters (more spell slots), Bard with Sorcerer (metamagic), Sorcerer with Paladin (extra smites), Warlock with Sorcerer (extra MMP), all of which with large range of spells and decent melee attack with a magic weapon.
With that said, the two reasons for going Draconic Sorcerer were 1) Good natural armor (13+DEX) and 2) Elemental Affinity working with all fire spells (direct damage, Searing Smite and Elemental Weapon). I personnally don't see any good reason to forbid it fluff-wise, although it could certainly be questioned on Elemental Weapon balance-wise (one could argue that it's not better than Paladin 11+ with the same spell though, and less good than Vengeance 11+ with buffed weapon).
So, in games where DM would allow a large application of Elemental Affinity, this build rocks. No game-breaking magic sure, but one of the largest range of roles he can fulfill efficiently.
If DM doesn't allow this, the 6th lvl loses much interest, as all of Draconic: Draconic Resilience is not indispensable, not being able to generate 4th lvl is not so bad (since you can use MP points to good other use anyways).
In that case, the modifications proposed by everyone kind enough to answer in this thread become very pertinent. The consensus build is as follows:
Lore Bard 6 / Ancienst Paladin / Favored Soul Sorcerer 4 / Tome Warlock 3
You "eat" Sorcerer to get...
- Warlock 3: Tome for Shillelagh (reduce MAD), Guidance, Thorn Whip and potentially rituals, 2nd level slots.
- Ancients Paladin: you trade very good CD and protection spells for excellent protection aura and versatile Druidish spells.
This build is better in many aspects: Ancients aura and nice spells, 1 more ASI, greatly reduce MAD for a pure melee build (meaning more feats), better short rest spells. The drawbacks are not great but they exist though: no Sorcerer lvl3 spell (meaning you'll consume Magic Secret to get good offensive spell), 2 spellcaster levels's worth of spell slots, no physical versatility (you're stuck with melee everytime), no ability to Twin Bestow Curse, need of good armor, need to choose between rituals and Repelling Blast (which is very much underestimated imo, providing a bit of Manoeuvers).
Overall a better build because easier to build and come online, but requires a very different approach in spell selection especially with Magic Secrets (unless you forego Tome to get Sorcerer 5).
It's also easier to justify fluff-wise between Paladin and Warlock if you don't wan t to refluff (just take Fey) (pick Conjure Animals to reinforce the coherence ^^).
Which led me to think about other balance choices:
Lore Bard 6 / Devotion Paladin 6 / Favored Soul Sorcerer 3 / Tomelock 5 (or Chain if you really want spell resistance).
Metamagic which cost only one point have to be favored (although you could still cast Twinned Haste and Bestow Curse 3rd level).
Since lv3, best Domain will be Light (offense) or Trickery (defense, sneakery).
Warlock nets you 3rd lvl slots for direct smites or MM fueling, both Repelling Blast AND rituals up to lvl3 (which is great).
However, you'll have to use Magic Secrets on offensive spells or forego them entirely. And you have even less spell slots than before.
As the one before, build based on Shillelagh, although more offensive (focus on attack and damage rather than defense). Added versatility comes from lvl3 rituals, which incidently makes this build potentially the best in terms of spell choice.
Lore Bard 6 / Devotion Paladin 6 / Favored Soul(Light) Sorcerer 5 / Chainlock 3
Sorcerer nets you free Fireball and Scorching Ray, so Magic Secrets are free for anything else. Also more max MMP to play with.
Chainlock is here only for spells, cantrips and familiar (scout and magic resistance).
You still get Magic Resistance, although through familiar, and you'll need DEX to attack.
Apart from the lack of ASI/Feats, all these builds have strengths and weaknesses making them complex to build, but fun to play with. Pick your choice :)